To Those Who Favor Brawl, Let's Finally Admit It...

[EvonJ]

It's only a bad thing it you dislike Melee because of it. If you accept that Melee has a big learning curb and politely decline it, then that's fine. But when you start raving that Brawl is better than Melee because "it brings people to the same level", A.K.A, "is too **** easy", you're jut being ignorant.

I see what you're saying then.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Yeah, I hate it when people whine about how they should be able to 3 stock or 4 stock noobs. If they're skilled, they'll pull through and win either way.

 

[BentoBox]

I could really care less what kind of "glitches" or "ATs" we discover in Brawl.
It's not like I'm going to use them, I don't need to. Nor do I care who else uses them. Everyone plays differently, but not everyone needs ATs to make them better.

And I already said that people who couldn't careless about the competitive aspect of the game nor the community attached to it had no business downtalking the latters as if they knew all about it. If you're not willing to make an effort and actually get good at the game, don't give us **** for doing so and taking the game to greater heights, as was done with melee. Enjoy your FFAs.

It takes 1 year before you can get good at melee. Some people don't want to spend a year of getting beat down before they do anything at a game that is already 7 years old or whatever? You make this sound like a bad thing if you don't want to spend a year practicing.

Also, if you can take a year to get good at melee, why is brawl already considered bad after 4 months? Didn't it take 3 years for melee to hit it's stride?

Can't you see that its the same people who dominated at Melee that remain at the top in Brawl? As much as you'd like to fool yourself, not everyone started back on square 1 when Brawl came out.

 

[-Big_-Blue 9]

It's only a bad thing it you dislike Melee because of it. If you accept that Melee has a big learning curb and politely decline it, then that's fine. But when you start raving that Brawl is better than Melee because "it brings people to the same level", A.K.A, "is too **** easy", you're jut being ignorant.

Any dedicated smash player isn't daunted by how long it takes to get good because the goal is all that matters. The attitude is, "I suck now, and I know it'll take a lot of practice to get good, but I know that I can be just as good as all those guys I see in the vids."

Too bad so many people won't be able to look at it that way
It should be the a mindset for those trying to improve themselves
for those that don't care, Well Brawl helps them cope with it.

 

[Crizthakidd]

no one dies in this game below 100% -_- matches take too long if each pllayer really wants to win and is making sure he hits and doest get hit.

 

[MuraRengan]

And, how did you form that opinion when you know nothing of me?

I'm sorry I can't make videos for you, I don't have the right equipment.
ATs are useless to me. I don't need them.
Unfortunately, I have no way to prove myself, so I guess you can just continue to douche around with strangers.

I know that you, in your own self-justified reasons, don't use advanced techs, therefore, it is impossible for you to be anywhere near tourney level play. That's all I need to know to know your skill level. You can judge a lot of things about people's skill level by what they post.

In Melee, advanced techs opened up a completely new realm of play that utterly obliterated non-advanced play. NOBODY (not even Broly) has been able to consistently beat a majority of tourney-level players without using advanced techs, and you are no exception, especially seeing how your skills are unrecognized by anyone of any significance and you have no video to prove yourself. You're just some arrogant noob talking out of your *** because you think you're good, but you don't have anything to prove it.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

I was pretty good at Melee.

I realize Brawl has, like no learning curve. I realize Brawl is less competitve and technical. I realize Brawl is less balanced but I still love Brawl. Not because of that, probaly because of it being more floatly and more characters.

 

[Stroupes]

If you're not willing to make an effort and actually get good at the game, don't give us **** for doing so and taking the game to greater heights, as was done with melee.

I've already made the effort to become good, and have become good at it, a pretty long time ago.

I know that you, in your own self-justified reasons, don't use advanced techs, therefore, it is impossible for you to be anywhere near tourney level play. That's all I need to know to know your skill level. You can judge a lot of things about people's skill level by what they post.

In Melee, advanced techs opened up a completely new realm of play that utterly obliterated non-advanced play. NOBODY (not even Broly) has been able to consistently beat a majority of tourney-level players without using advanced techs, and you are no exception, especially seeing how your skills are unrecognized by anyone of any significance and you have no video to prove yourself. You're just some arrogant noob talking out of your *** because you think you're good, but you don't have anything to prove it.

So let me get this straight.
I was flamed earlier because I believed that elitists were only good due to ATs, and here you are using that arguement?

 

[Deleted member]

I know that you, in your own self-justified reasons, don't use advanced techs, therefore, it is impossible for you to be anywhere near tourney level play. That's all I need to know to know your skill level. You can judge a lot of things about people's skill level by what they post.

In Melee, advanced techs opened up a completely new realm of play that utterly obliterated non-advanced play. NOBODY (not even Broly) has been able to consistently beat a majority of tourney-level players without using advanced techs, and you are no exception, especially seeing how your skills are unrecognized by anyone of any significance and you have no video to prove yourself. You're just some arrogant noob talking out of your *** because you think you're good, but you don't have anything to prove it.

Wow, you need to be able to be able to use Ats to be good? Since when? It helps, but not always.

 

[EvonJ]

Can't you see that its the same people who dominated at Melee that remain at the top in Brawl? As much as you'd like to fool yourself, not everyone started back on square 1 when Brawl came out.

That is true that many good people are still the best. But that since the games are so different I wouldn't say it's back to square one, but maybe square 2? Some people are just really good at smash, and that's awesome for them. I don't know their opinions on it, but do they hate brawl (yet continue to play it even though there are still melee tournaments and such) or do they enjoy figuring out a new way to be awesome?

 

[hippochinfat!!]

That is true that many good people are still the best. But that since the games are so different I wouldn't say it's back to square one, but maybe square 2? Some people are just really good at smash, and that's awesome for them. I don't know their opinions on it, but do they hate brawl (yet continue to play it even though there are still melee tournaments and such) or do they enjoy figuring out a new way to be awesome?

Not all of them hate Brawl. Azen for example likes Brawl.

 

[MuraRengan]

So let me get this straight.
I was flamed earlier because I believed that elitists were only good due to ATs, and here you are using that arguement?

See this is where the debating gets hard, but I'll try to explain this to your feeble mind as much as possible.

As I said before, advanced techs opened up a completely new metagame for Melee. People didn't used them because they needed them to win, they used them because they could better themselves with them. The argument you present is stupid because it tries to put a negative tone on something that doesn't really matter. There was no alternat way to being good other than using advanced techs, and nobody has proven that wrong. It's like saying "Pancakes are only good because people put syrup on them." Well what the **** are we supposed to do then? We've got syrup, but we can't use it because that somehow degrades us? Hell no. And it's the same way with Melee. When people like you make the "they're only good because they used advanced techs" argument you're just making yourslef look more stupid by implying that using advanced techs shows some sort of weakness. In truth, it takes practice to incorperate advanced techs effectively into play, but people like you rfuse to believe that and insist that you can become better than others by using some alternative method that doesn't exist. However, this is why nobody cares about people like you, because you think you're good, but can't prove it. You insist that you are superior to everyone else who degreades themselves by using advanced techs, while you have nothing to back it up.

 

[Stroupes]

Ahh, thanks.
You explained that very well for my feeble mind to understand.
While you're at it, why don't you give a total noob like me some tips?
The world of smash wouldn't be the same without great players like you.

 

[MuraRengan]

Wow, you need to be able to be able to use Ats to be good? Since when? It helps, but not always.

A major part of competitive play is the effective use of all or most advanced tactics TOGETHER (not individually) which include: L-cancel, wavedash, teching, character specific techs and maneuvers (I.E. SHL, float cancel, shinespike), and observational spacing. If you can't do that you aren't any good.

Ahh, thanks.
You explained that very well for my feeble mind to understand.
While you're at it, why don't you give a total noob like me some tips?
The world of smash wouldn't be the same without great players like you.

I'll stop debating you here, since you can't offer a more meaningful and relevant rebuttal.

 

[MuraRengan]

double post

 

[Mr. Rogu]

the reason i like brawl better is cause theres more to do in brawl than melee, theres better stages, and more characters. melee, i played it so much, its boring, old. but i was good at it. i mean we had 7 years to enjoy melee time for a new game.

 

[Zap657]

You know, sometimes I wonder if, had Wavedashing/L-cancelling/etc not been in Melee in the first place, Brawl would have been more appreciated.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

well aren't you a bright happy ray of sunshine.......anyways the op is terribly wrong. People don't like brawl because they sucked at melee. They like it cause the game is fun to play and is the newest installment in a great series.

 

[Deleted member]

A major part of competitive play is the effective use of all or most advanced tactics TOGETHER (not individually) which include: L-cancel, wavedash, teching, character specific techs and maneuvers (I.E. SHL, float cancel, shinespike), and observational spacing. If you can't do that you aren't any good.



I'll stop debating you here, since you can't offer a more meaningful and relevant rebuttal.

Wow ur dumb. First of all, lighten the attitude a bit. Your acting like a complete douche. If you are going to insult someone, do it right.

Second of all, i don't won't to waste my knowledge on someone like u. Besides, there a lot of pros i know, who don't use waveash or L-cancel. U are just being ignorant.

Edit: Oh, the second phrase was meant for someone else. sorry

 

[MuraRengan]

Wow ur dumb. First of all, lighten the attitude a bit. Your acting like a complete douche. If you are going to insult someone, do it right.

Second of all, i don't won't to waste my knowledge on someone like u. Besides, there a lot of pros i know, who don't use waveash or L-cancel. U are just being ignorant.

Edit: Oh, the second phrase was meant for someone else. sorry

It doesn't matter whether or not I'm acting like a douche, as long as I know what I'm talking about.

Do you really know any "pros"? or do you mean some of your friends who don't use AT's? Cmon, name some names. Show me your knowledge and I'll show you you're wrong.

 

[DTKPch]

Wait, Stroupes, all this mention of "true skill" and yet you don't bother to mention what it is? How do you define skill?

Skill is physical, emotional, and mental.
You have to be able to physically hit the buttons that you want. You need to keep a calm and level head, even if you're down 3 stocks and have high damage. You need to be able to make the right decisions in a split second, and always consider what the opponent might do. Mastering all 3 can make a great player.

Now how do wavedashing and l-cancelling not fit in to that? You can't just wavedash back and forth across the whole stage and hope that it lets you win. Wavedashing is used as an instrument to trick your opponent into leaving an opening, to space an attack properlly, or move in a more fitting way when walking or dashing wouldn't necessarily work as well. Frankly, it takes mental and physical skill. A bunch of people can't get the timing down, so they literally can't do it. A bunch of people don't know when to use it, so they just wavedash with no purpose at all.

I just don't see how you can so easily exclude techniques like wavedashing from your definition of "skill."

 

[Cat Fight]

I prefer Brawl over Melee for a few reasons:

1.) I played Link in Melee, and he's not exactly the fastest character in the series. My playstyle revolved around lots of ground combos and spacing. Nothing too intricate or technical IMO, I didn't like dashing around the stage like most people would because it distracted me from thinking. When Brawl came out, all my friends even told me "this is Wes' game." It's not too slow, not too fast. Although less combo oriented, there are still plenty of outlets to unleash stringed attacks that give me enough satisfaction. By all means, I did not suck at Melee. I am full aware, and take advantage of, most ATs in Melee.

2.) Like I said, Brawl is a little slower paced, but I like it that way. I've been comparing Brawl to SF2 the past few months, and it shows. People mention to me that I play Brawl a lot like someone would SF2. Spacing is key in both games, and if you mess up you get heavily punished for it so long as yr opponent is smart, as are most SF2 players. I know some people may say, "spacing is very important in Melee as well. What's your point?". I simply feel as though the spacing and playstyle in both games are very similar.

3.) I've been writing movesets for Wolf, Metaknight, and King Dedede since the first year Melee had come out. Finally being able to play as these characters was reason enough for me to play Brawl.

4.) It's a brand new game. There is so much information to learn and share amongst each other, and it's helping expand the Smash community into something more. I love being able to write things about Brawl that no one knows or takes advantage of in-game. We should be using this game as an opportunity to bring everyone together. Although, there are some people who would rather keep Melee in one corner and Brawl in the other, which is rather unfortunate because it may end up hurting the community as a whole.

By all means, I did not suck at Melee. I was at my technical and skillful peak when Melee was dying out and everyone was preparing for Brawl. Which is unfortunate because I got into the tournament scene a tad too late.

The only thing that hurt is not being able to play as Mewtwo. :"{

 

[Deleted member]

It doesn't matter whether or not I'm acting like a douche, as long as I know what I'm talking about.

Do you really know any "pros"? or do you mean some of your friends who don't use AT's? Cmon, name some names. Show me your knowledge and I'll show you you're wrong.

Wow, you truly are a f**got. I don't want to show someone something that i know that they won't understand. It would be sad. I had it with this argument. If udon't git anything smart to say, don't say anything at all.

YOU"RE NOT A GENIUS. Don't get ahead of yourself.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

douche (noun)
1. a jerk, *******
2. MuraRengan


people tend to respect you less and question you more the more you are a douche...

 

[BentoBox]

Second of all, i don't won't to waste my knowledge on someone like u. Besides, there a lot of pros i know, who don't use waveash or L-cancel. U are just being ignorant.

And who may those persons be? Anyone can hop on the internet and claim total BS without having to prove themselves.

I know a guy who mained Pichu and got 1rst in many tournaments.

See what I did there?

I've already made the effort to become good, and have become good at it, a pretty long time ago.

So you got good while purposely straying away from what made the game deep? Sorry but if you won't even SHL on a Falco (example) because you don't need such things, I can't help but agree with Mura over the fact that you are greatly limiting yourself. If you refuse to use options given to you, then how is this any different from Brawl? Where its the lack of options that actually screws 2/3rds of the cast? You can't possibly make anyone believe that you could overcome everything with "l33t mindgamez" and get any far in competitions that actually matter.

Sorry but everyone considers themselves good until they get properly ***** by people with actual competitive experience.

 

[Deleted member]

And who may those persons be? Anyone can hop on the internet and claim total BS without having to prove themselves.

I know a guy who mained Pichu and got 1rst in many tournaments.

See what I did there?

Ok, maybe was over stating it. but i'm just saying there are people who won tournaments without wave dash (i believe it was a Link user, but whatev)

 

[Skler]

Aniki? The same Aniki who didn't actually win (although he placed pretty high) Japanese tournaments and only beat Ken once in a friendly before switching to Samus and using wavedashes (although rarely)?

You don't go far in tournaments without the ATs. Saying that because Aniki did well means nothing because Japanese players were proven to be worse when Bombsoldier came over here and got beaten by people who didn't even win major tournaments here.

@Cat Fight, I play Link and like Melee way more than Brawl. Brawl ruined everything I loved about smash, even the SKRAAAAA! I still love ya though <3.

 

[BentoBox]

Yes, Aniki is the link player I refered to earlier, and did not wavedash much (nor do most japanese players, or so I've heard). Now how is this relevant?

That's like saying Melee was perfectly balanced because Azen is too good with Pikachu.

Most people if not all who played competitively did use ATs proefficiently. The Melee section is still here, go check it out.

 

[Zap657]

Wow, you truly are a f**got. I don't want to show someone something that i know that they won't understand. It would be sad. I had it with this argument. If udon't git anything smart to say, don't say anything at all.

YOU"RE NOT A GENIUS. Don't get ahead of yourself.

Wow, I'm on the "prefers brawl" side of things, and you're not exactly helping us win the debate. All he did was ask a question and you fly off the handle with cursewords, self-righteousness, and a bunch of spelling mistakes. All you're doing is pushing further the stereotype of stupid Brawl players who know nothing of Melee and shouldn't be taken seriously, please stop.

Edit: Alright, so alot of things happen while I type up my posts, sorry about that I guess

 

[MuraRengan]

TWILITHERO are you afraid to argue with me? Because it certainly seems that way. If you're so confident in yourself it should be fun for you to kill the troll. But see, I know that you don't know what you're talking about and that's why I'm so confident. But you don't seem to have that confidence. You're a coward.

If you've noticed, Stroupes stopped posting. Why? Either it was because he had to suddenly leave his computer, or it's because I shut him down completely with facts that he can't argue. I'm willing to bet the latter.

Edit: I'll be back after avatar goes off.

 

[EvonJ]

Yea I agree. Don't lash out at people when they are just asking questions. It doesn't make you look smart and it makes people that share opinions with you look not so smart either. I don't think it can be argued that AT's aren't needed to be considered really good at melee.

I'll be back in a year, I have to go get good at melee.

 

[Cat Fight]

@Cat Fight, I play Link and like Melee way more than Brawl. Brawl ruined everything I loved about smash, even the SKRAAAAA! I still love ya though <3.

*shrug* There are, of course, things about Melee that I would have loved to have transferred over into Brawl.

SKRAAAA! was probably one of the things I was more upset about as a Melee Link player going into Brawl. But since then, I've learned to accept change and adapt.

Recently, I picked Link back up and plan on making him my secondary. He's not the same, no... but that doesn't mean I should hate Brawl for making him almost completely different.

<3 Love ya too Skler. =^___^=

 

[25%Cotton]

brawl has a decent learning curve... without comparison... but it's nothing compared to other games.

still, distinction is very obvious and improvements happen quite frequently (for me, at least)... it's just nowhere near the level of melee, and the top players really don't have anywhere to go.

brawl is like an rpg with a low level cap .

 

[Aznseal]

And, how did you form that opinion when you know nothing of me?

I'm sorry I can't make videos for you, I don't have the right equipment.
ATs are useless to me. I don't need them.
Unfortunately, I have no way to prove myself, so I guess you can just continue to douche around with strangers.

no johns xd

 

[Sosuke]

Are you going to call l-cancelling a glitch? It was in Smash 64..

...........................
I feel stupid.
._.

 

[Kal]

It's like every argument supplied against Melee being the superior game is given by someone with poor skills in writing and logic.

Arguing that you prefer Brawl because you have the same chances as everyone else is ridiculous. The top Melee players are still dominating the scene. And while some mediocre Melee players are doing well in Brawl, the best players are still the dominating Melee players. This suggests that this idealistic "clean slate" that everyone thinks has arrived with Brawl does not exist.

 

[Proud_Smash_N00b]

1) I've played Melee competitively, and like I apparently inconspicuously mentioned, I have my fair share of victories... no tournament wins because I never had a Ken-like or M2K-like Marth, but I've had my wins with Marth, Shiek, Samus, Jiggs, and Roy. I've also been in Street Fighter tournaments as well, so it's not like I don't know anything about the competitive scene of fightin games in general. Once you go competitive, you start to get a feel and an understanding for the game that a casual player just won't get unless he/she makes that jump from casual to competitive. You'll get a feel for a player's play style, an understanding of how a single move can become a mindgame of its own, and you start to understand technicalities that make even the simplest attacks seem epic. Even with my victories and my "half way decent" gameplay in Melee, I still say I sucked at Melee because I did.

2) Victories in Brawl lean towards who? Snake and MetaKnight. 2 out of 35 is pretty bad, but at the same time, Melee 4 out of 25 (Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek) ain't so **** hot either. Yeah, yeah, you're gonna tell me that victories in tournaments obviously had other characters win it, such as ICers, Falcon, and even the once legendary Melee Link, but when it all boils down to it, Those 4 owned life in Melee.

3) Brawl is clearly a fighting game... if you don't think so, look up the definition of the word fight and apply it to Brawl.

4) Brawl does take practice. For now, the metagame (or at least my metagame) is all about the edgeguard. Even if your edgeguarding doesn't kill your opponent, it should damage them enough such that your next murder attempt is that much easier. Of course, Snake and MetaKnight are hell to edgeguard, as well as edgeguard very well, which is why they're the two top characters in this game.

5) Tripping does suck.

6) My sig has three separate general statements. Skills will always be greater than luck because you can always control your skill, focus will always be better than anger because anger can lead to spontaneous and stupid decisions, and Brawl is better than Melee in both the casual and the competitive aspects.

uhmm.. no
One part of competitiveness is the passion that is put in each game, when it comes to playing and watching. Everyone was passionate in Melee tourneys and played it competitively. The reason everyone was passionate when it comes to Melee matches is because Melee matches are more exciting. This is also why people aren't as passionate about Brawl, Brawl matches are boring. And luck does not make a game competitive

yes, i am saying just that, that brawl IS highly luck compared to melee

trading hits, random air dodge to the ground with no landing lag, random tripping, which can happen during DDD chain grabs, air tripping as well, there's tons more luck in brawl than there is in melee, and far less guaranteed things. You don't anticipate the moves of noobs, they do random things, in melee you just **** them by being better, but if they are a campy noob, they can still do decent by just being a shield camping ***got. Melee has infinite room for improvement, without even needing to play gay. Brawl, if you play gay and boring, you have a SIGNIFICANTLY bigger advantage, and that's extremely boring and ********. Lack of things you can master makes the game less fun with less replay value, which are things melee offered to a huge extreme.

You can do things randomly and not get punished for it nearly as bad as you would in melee, and that's a downgrade for competitive potential, where the best player isn't as guaranteed to win, especially in 3 stock matches. You suicide once it's over, in melee comebacks were easy cuz of death combos and stuff, brawl is more leveled out for the little kiddies, and that's more unfair for the better players. All the advanced tactics aren't hard to do, like shield cancel, it just takes getting used to, and it's extremely shallow, anyone can do it, and it's also really really really campy and that makes the game not fun. Brawl wasn't designed to be competitive, Sakurai did this on purpose, stop trying to make it competitive..

 

[shadenexus18]

I fall in the category of people who favor Brawl over Melee. Why? In terms of direct reasons, it has nothing to do with the physics, the hitstun, the aerials, the characters, etc. There is one simple reason why people who say that Brawl is better than Melee say that, and while many pros have probably already figured it out, I'll be man enough to admit it for most, if not all, of us:

We sucked in Melee.
There. Are you happy? I said it.

Sure, we may have pulled off some epic victories with our mains. We might have a combo video up on YouTube with a few hundred views. We might have beaten a local pro or two in casual matches. we might have entered a tournament and scored enough victories to earn basic respect. But all in all, there is at least one aspect of Melee that kept us from being that pro that we all secretly wnated to be, whether it be an AT, a character match-up, or even the deeper understanding of how a game works when you take it to the competitive level. You know, we were just playing Melee with out friends until one day, you hear about a tournament with players that are MUCH better than us. We tried to learn, but it was too late to absorb all that info.

But now, Brawl is out, and we're all playing and learning at the same time. Melee doesn't necessarily have a bigger learning curve than Brawl, it's just that everybody is learning this game at the same time. Whatever ATs (or phony ATs) are being discovered, everybody's gonna know because we're all thriving to learn this game and not be left in the dust like we were in Melee. This is one of the reasons why I believe that Brawl is every bit as competitive as Melee because now, there are more competitors to this game that have the same amount of knowledge about it as you do. Yes, Melee and Brawl are games with two very different technical designs, but it still takes skill to play and win in Brawl. The only reason why Melee vets may say otherwise is because they haven't been able to own the new faces of Brawl like they used to in Melee, and the reasons for that are 1) we perfer Brawl while you perfer Melee, and 2) everybody's learning this game at the same time.

But yeah. We sucked in Melee. :ouch:

Well...I wouldn't say that we necessarily "sucked" in Melee, for we could hold our own more often than not. However, lets not kid ourselves. We'd get our trash OWNED by MLG'ers if we faced them.

Also, I liked Brawl the minute it came out because it was fresh sigh of relief that this game will make new legend players aside from the already famous people we have like Mew 2 King. I wanna be famous too dang it for owning in a high stakes tournament! *shakes fist*

 

[KosukeKGA]

Well...I wouldn't say that we necessarily "sucked" in Melee, for we could hold our own more often than not. However, lets not kid ourselves. We'd get our trash OWNED by MLG'ers if we faced them.

Also, I liked Brawl the minute it came out because it was fresh sigh of relief that this game will make new legend players aside from the already famous people we have like Mew 2 King. I wanna be famous too dang it for owning in a high stakes tournament! *shakes fist*

As said before, the top Melee players are dominating the scene (specifically M2K and Cort usually), so no "new legends" will arrive on the scene, unfortunately.

 

[shadenexus18]

As said before, the top Melee players are dominating the scene (specifically M2K and Cort usually), so no "new legends" will arrive on the scene, unfortunately.

You do mean "not yet" don't you? This game hasn't been out that long (it's only been 4 months) so there will be new legends that will dominate this game in no time at all.

However, having new legends in the game will mean nothing if I'm not one of them. Sigh...I better start honing my skills so I'll be ready for Virginia tourneys.