Official Toon Link 1.1.4 Patch Changes

[ksizl4life]

Have you checked the end-lag?

Yep. Both 1.0.9 and 1.1.0 have 71 total frames. Frame 1 of shield always pops on 72

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well that's strange. Now that I look at it, the official patch thread seems to not have any changes to Toon. http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/
Maybe the data was misinterpreted? http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/diff/128-to-144/toonlink
But Dantarion himself confirmed it. https://twitter.com/dantarion
I don't know what's going on now. It might be best if you ask in the official patch thread I linked.

...
And you're sure that you dashed far enough to actually do a dash grab, right? Like, you grabbed out of a run, not the initial frames of a dash.

 

[ksizl4life]

Well that's strange. Now that I look at it, the official patch thread seems to not have any changes to Toon. http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/
Maybe the data was misinterpreted? http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/diff/128-to-144/toonlink
But Dantarion himself confirmed it. https://twitter.com/dantarion
I don't know what's going on now. It might be best if you ask in the official patch thread I linked.

...
And you're sure that you dashed far enough to actually do a dash grab, right? Like, you grabbed out of a run, not the initial frames of a dash.

I'll ask around. But yeah I just rerecorded to make sure it was out of a run and not initial dash. Both versions grab on frame 14.

I'm probably gonna leave Toon Link for the final video just so I don't linger on this.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Wait now I'm confused was the dash grab given better startup or not?

 

[Saike]

I think I see no changes as usual to Toon Link. Feels the same.

 

[Deleted member]

We got a single buff and it was to grounded upb2, which is still a terrible move to use on the ground and unfortunately banned in tournies. Nice at least we didn't get any nerfs for the second patch in a row.

Toon Link only has a single change to custom up-b 2 on the ground--it has 6 hitboxes instead of 1, they all seem stronger than before, one of them does 11% instead of 10%.

 

[EvanBuck]

So no changes to Toon Link in 1.1.1?

 

[JesterJaded]

So no changes to Toon Link in 1.1.1?

Well, there was a universal shieldstun buff.

Can anyone say how this will benefit Tink's moveset?

 

[Deleted member]

So no changes to Toon Link in 1.1.1?

I just said in the post above yours that there was a change to him.

I also found another change that Thinkaman seems to have missed. Out upb2 seems to move slightly farther when used on the ground now. I did two grounded spin attacks on FD (one doesn't show the difference very well since it was only a slight change) on a pre-patch 3DS and post-patch Wii U:

The aerial version seems exactly the same to me, even still doing 10% total if all hits connect. Which is kind of weird that it now does more damage on the ground than in the air lol, since upb2 can do 12% at the beginning of the move now and does 8% at the very end.

 

[Dasmilitus]

When I get home I need to see if I can get a guaranteed grab off of zair on shield with less-than-perfect spacing

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

When I get home I need to see if I can get a guaranteed grab off of zair on shield with less-than-perfect spacing

People are exagerating things slightly. In order to get a guaranteed grab out of a Zair on shield you'd need to have a +12 frame advantage against OoS options at least. If you hit Zair such that it hits the shield on the last frame that Toon is airborne at best Toon has a +4 frame advantage on shield-drop due to the minimal amount of frames required for the shield to be held up, and if not for that you'd simply have a +3 frame advantage. What this means is that against OoS options we are still at a disadvantage, of -4 frames. So, lol, no, we don't get a guaranteed anything off Zair up close. The patch just makes it so some moves are no longer as able to punish us OoS anymore if we miss-space Zair, but I wouldn't over-state this advantage at all.

What you should be focusing on is things like projectiles being slightly more irritating due to people being stuck in shield slightly longer if they don't powershield, or Fair on shield being (far) less punishable. What you should be focusing on is the fact that our slow OoS options just got comparatively slower, so we'll want to try harder to avoid situations where we are forced to shield, otherwise make sure we power-shield.


Edit:
Also, for the record, Nair (used such that it hits on the last frame of your air-time) is a +1 frame advantage on shield-drop, and a -6 on anything OoS.
Fair used in the same way is -2 against shield-drop and -9 against OoS options.

Boomerang used right up close is a 0 frame advantage on shield-drop (take away 7 frames for moves OoS, so -7). Obviously this means that if used further away such that the boomerang hits the shield further along in the throw animation, you'll get a better frame advantage.
Returning boomerang makes it so the opponent can't act out of a shield drop for 15 frames and so they can't use an OoS option for 8 frames.

Arrow up close is a -8 on shield-drop. See boomerang.

Bomb is tough to test because it all depends on the context. We'll do a few contexts.
If you stand right in front of them and throw the bomb at their shield then they can act immediately OoS. If instead they shield drop then they'll have to wait 7 frames, in which case you're looking at a -6. Obviously this is right up close though, and distance = more frame advantage.
So let's suppose that you're standing in front of them, you FH and throw the bomb down on the first frame you are airborne (barely missing the JC) (and yes it has to be a FH otherwise the blast will hit you). The bomb misses their shield, hits the ground and the blast hits their shield (presumably doing 8% in terms of shield damage). You'd be looking at roughly a 10 frame advantage on shield-drop and a 3 frame advantage on anything OoS. Thoroughly unpunishable.
One more. Yeah actually, how about if the timed explosion hits you? How many frames would it take to do anything? It takes 16 frames to do something out of shield-drop, so that's 9 frames to do something OoS.
I'll do one more. There's no point in finding out what the frame advantage is for a standard throw on the ground that explodes near a shield because it would be huge, so instead I'll just find out how long the opponent would be stuck in shield from the moment of the explosion. Standard throw does 6% while smash throw does 7%. I'll do both.
Standard throw makes it so the opponent can't do anything out of a shield-drop for 17 frames meaning they can do an OoS option after 10 frames. And smash throw is 18 frames and 11 frames respectively.
And because I just got an idea, if you smash throw a bomb up, and then it comes back down and hits the ground beside someone shielding, they will be unable to do anything out of a shield drop for 19 frames, meaning they won't be able to do any OoS options for 12 frames meaning, if you take into consideration the fact that spotdodge is invulnerable on frame 3, meaning that at best they'll be invulnerable on frame 15 after the bomb hits, and if you consider that grab is first active on frame 12, trying to grab people that shield falling bombs is certainly possible.

Edit 2: You know what, I'm in a testing mood, and I want to check something.
Simple question, what would be required to keep an opponent in their shield against their will between a bomb hitting the ground next to them and Toon following up with an aerial?

I'll start with a SH, bomb throw down at the peak of the jump followed by a Nair, and see if that works.

Holy **** it worked... That's awesome.

Edit 3: So the first hit of Nair is 1 frame off keeping the opponent in their shield before the second hit of Nair, such that it will actually work if you somehow manage to hit their shield with the 7th frame hitbox of Nair (which hits first on frame 6). Essentially then, if you hit with the hitbox that comes out on the 6th frame, they'd have two options: hold shield and take the second hit to their shield, or get hit by it. There is literally no other choice. Which of course has me thinking. Is it possible to set up a bomb to double hit Nair on shield such that the bomb to Nair is still guaranteed? I'm mostly worried about whether I'd have enough time because when I got the Bomb to Nair from a SH, the Nair hit came out just before I landed so obviously not enough time for the second hit, but if I start adjusting the timing of the bomb throw such that I throw it down earlier, it might not then keep the opponent in shield because it is thrown closer to the ground i.e. less frame advantage. I might have to resort to a FH approach, but we'll see.

Nope, it works from a SH. This is sick.

[For the record, the second hit of Nair gives the same 1 frame advantage on shield-drop and -6 on OoS option that the first hit does despite the fact that it does slightly less damage.]

The bomb to double Nair does 2/3 shield damage, so if the opponent's shield is lowish, you can run up, SH bomb down throw, continue to drift into them and buffer a Nair, and if they shield the bomb, they will be forced against their will to shield the first hit of Nair, at which point they will have two options and two options only: either get hit by the second hit of Nair (and leave with their shield even further depleted), or get their shield broken. Sickness.

Edit: See this post http://smashboards.com/threads/trea...h-lab-and-at-list.380910/page-7#post-20234176 for more detail.

 

[Theis]

People are exagerating things slightly. In order to get a guaranteed grab out of a Zair on shield you'd need to have a +12 frame advantage against OoS options at least. If you hit Zair such that it hits the shield on the last frame that Toon is airborne at best Toon has a +4 frame advantage on shield-drop due to the minimal amount of frames required for the shield to be held up, and if not for that you'd simply have a +3 frame advantage. What this means is that against OoS options we are still at a disadvantage, of -4 frames. So, lol, no, we don't get a guaranteed anything off Zair up close. The patch just makes it so some moves are no longer as able to punish us OoS anymore if we miss-space Zair, but I wouldn't over-state this advantage at all.

What you should be focusing on is things like projectiles being slightly more irritating due to people being stuck in shield slightly longer if they don't powershield, or Fair on shield being (far) less punishable. What you should be focusing on is the fact that our slow OoS options just got comparatively slower, so we'll want to try harder to avoid situations where we are forced to shield, otherwise make sure we power-shield.


Edit:
Also, for the record, Nair (used such that it hits on the last frame of your air-time) is a +1 frame advantage on shield-drop, and a -6 on anything OoS.
Fair used in the same way is -2 against shield-drop and -9 against OoS options.

Boomerang used right up close is a 0 frame advantage on shield-drop (take away 7 frames for moves OoS, so -7). Obviously this means that if used further away such that the boomerang hits the shield further along in the throw animation, you'll get a better frame advantage.
Returning boomerang makes it so the opponent can't act out of a shield drop for 15 frames and so they can't use an OoS option for 8 frames.

Arrow up close is a -8 on shield-drop. See boomerang.

Bomb is tough to test because it all depends on the context. We'll do a few contexts.
If you stand right in front of them and throw the bomb at their shield then they can act immediately OoS. If instead they shield drop then they'll have to wait 7 frames, in which case you're looking at a -6. Obviously this is right up close though, and distance = more frame advantage.
So let's suppose that you're standing in front of them, you FH and throw the bomb down on the first frame you are airborne (barely missing the JC) (and yes it has to be a FH otherwise the blast will hit you). The bomb misses their shield, hits the ground and the blast hits their shield (presumably doing 8% in terms of shield damage). You'd be looking at roughly a 10 frame advantage on shield-drop and a 3 frame advantage on anything OoS. Thoroughly unpunishable.
One more. Yeah actually, how about if the timed explosion hits you? How many frames would it take to do anything? It takes 16 frames to do something out of shield-drop, so that's 9 frames to do something OoS.
I'll do one more. There's no point in finding out what the frame advantage is for a standard throw on the ground that explodes near a shield because it would be huge, so instead I'll just find out how long the opponent would be stuck in shield from the moment of the explosion. Standard throw does 6% while smash throw does 7%. I'll do both.
Standard throw makes it so the opponent can't do anything out of a shield-drop for 17 frames meaning they can do an OoS option after 10 frames. And smash throw is 18 frames and 11 frames respectively.
And because I just got an idea, if you smash throw a bomb up, and then it comes back down and hits the ground beside someone shielding, they will be unable to do anything out of a shield drop for 19 frames, meaning they won't be able to do any OoS options for 12 frames meaning, if you take into consideration the fact that spotdodge is invulnerable on frame 3, meaning that at best they'll be invulnerable on frame 15 after the bomb hits, and if you consider that grab is first active on frame 12, trying to grab people that shield falling bombs is certainly possible.

Edit 2: You know what, I'm in a testing mood, and I want to check something.
Simple question, what would be required to keep an opponent in their shield against their will between a bomb hitting the ground next to them and Toon following up with an aerial?

I'll start with a SH, bomb throw down at the peak of the jump followed by a Nair, and see if that works.

Holy **** it worked... That's awesome.

Edit 3: So the first hit of Nair is 1 frame off keeping the opponent in their shield before the second hit of Nair, such that it will actually work if you somehow manage to hit their shield with the 7th frame hitbox of Nair (which hits first on frame 6). Essentially then, if you hit with the hitbox that comes out on the 6th frame, they'd have two options: hold shield and take the second hit to their shield, or get hit by it. There is literally no other choice. Which of course has me thinking. Is it possible to set up a bomb to double hit Nair on shield such that the bomb to Nair is still guaranteed? I'm mostly worried about whether I'd have enough time because when I got the Bomb to Nair from a SH, the Nair hit came out just before I landed so obviously not enough time for the second hit, but if I start adjusting the timing of the bomb throw such that I throw it down earlier, it might not then keep the opponent in shield because it is thrown closer to the ground i.e. less frame advantage. I might have to resort to a FH approach, but we'll see.

Nope, it works from a SH. This is sick.

[For the record, the second hit of Nair gives the same 1 frame advantage on shield-drop and -6 on OoS option that the first hit does despite the fact that it does slightly less damage.]

The bomb to double Nair does 2/3 shield damage, so if the opponent's shield is lowish, you can run up, SH bomb down throw, continue to drift into them and buffer a Nair, and if they shield the bomb, they will be forced against their will to shield the first hit of Nair, at which point they will have two options and two options only: either get hit by the second hit of Nair (and leave with their shield even further depleted), or get their shield broken. Sickness.

wow i wish i read this before todays tournament, good find! i guess throwing bombs down is a pretty viable option now

 

[LotadAlittle]

People are exagerating things slightly. In order to get a guaranteed grab out of a Zair on shield you'd need to have a +12 frame advantage against OoS options at least. If you hit Zair such that it hits the shield on the last frame that Toon is airborne at best Toon has a +4 frame advantage on shield-drop due to the minimal amount of frames required for the shield to be held up, and if not for that you'd simply have a +3 frame advantage. What this means is that against OoS options we are still at a disadvantage, of -4 frames. So, lol, no, we don't get a guaranteed anything off Zair up close. The patch just makes it so some moves are no longer as able to punish us OoS anymore if we miss-space Zair, but I wouldn't over-state this advantage at all.

What you should be focusing on is things like projectiles being slightly more irritating due to people being stuck in shield slightly longer if they don't powershield, or Fair on shield being (far) less punishable. What you should be focusing on is the fact that our slow OoS options just got comparatively slower, so we'll want to try harder to avoid situations where we are forced to shield, otherwise make sure we power-shield.


Edit:
Also, for the record, Nair (used such that it hits on the last frame of your air-time) is a +1 frame advantage on shield-drop, and a -6 on anything OoS.
Fair used in the same way is -2 against shield-drop and -9 against OoS options.

Boomerang used right up close is a 0 frame advantage on shield-drop (take away 7 frames for moves OoS, so -7). Obviously this means that if used further away such that the boomerang hits the shield further along in the throw animation, you'll get a better frame advantage.
Returning boomerang makes it so the opponent can't act out of a shield drop for 15 frames and so they can't use an OoS option for 8 frames.

Arrow up close is a -8 on shield-drop. See boomerang.

Bomb is tough to test because it all depends on the context. We'll do a few contexts.
If you stand right in front of them and throw the bomb at their shield then they can act immediately OoS. If instead they shield drop then they'll have to wait 7 frames, in which case you're looking at a -6. Obviously this is right up close though, and distance = more frame advantage.
So let's suppose that you're standing in front of them, you FH and throw the bomb down on the first frame you are airborne (barely missing the JC) (and yes it has to be a FH otherwise the blast will hit you). The bomb misses their shield, hits the ground and the blast hits their shield (presumably doing 8% in terms of shield damage). You'd be looking at roughly a 10 frame advantage on shield-drop and a 3 frame advantage on anything OoS. Thoroughly unpunishable.
One more. Yeah actually, how about if the timed explosion hits you? How many frames would it take to do anything? It takes 16 frames to do something out of shield-drop, so that's 9 frames to do something OoS.
I'll do one more. There's no point in finding out what the frame advantage is for a standard throw on the ground that explodes near a shield because it would be huge, so instead I'll just find out how long the opponent would be stuck in shield from the moment of the explosion. Standard throw does 6% while smash throw does 7%. I'll do both.
Standard throw makes it so the opponent can't do anything out of a shield-drop for 17 frames meaning they can do an OoS option after 10 frames. And smash throw is 18 frames and 11 frames respectively.
And because I just got an idea, if you smash throw a bomb up, and then it comes back down and hits the ground beside someone shielding, they will be unable to do anything out of a shield drop for 19 frames, meaning they won't be able to do any OoS options for 12 frames meaning, if you take into consideration the fact that spotdodge is invulnerable on frame 3, meaning that at best they'll be invulnerable on frame 15 after the bomb hits, and if you consider that grab is first active on frame 12, trying to grab people that shield falling bombs is certainly possible.

Edit 2: You know what, I'm in a testing mood, and I want to check something.
Simple question, what would be required to keep an opponent in their shield against their will between a bomb hitting the ground next to them and Toon following up with an aerial?

I'll start with a SH, bomb throw down at the peak of the jump followed by a Nair, and see if that works.

Holy **** it worked... That's awesome.

Edit 3: So the first hit of Nair is 1 frame off keeping the opponent in their shield before the second hit of Nair, such that it will actually work if you somehow manage to hit their shield with the 7th frame hitbox of Nair (which hits first on frame 6). Essentially then, if you hit with the hitbox that comes out on the 6th frame, they'd have two options: hold shield and take the second hit to their shield, or get hit by it. There is literally no other choice. Which of course has me thinking. Is it possible to set up a bomb to double hit Nair on shield such that the bomb to Nair is still guaranteed? I'm mostly worried about whether I'd have enough time because when I got the Bomb to Nair from a SH, the Nair hit came out just before I landed so obviously not enough time for the second hit, but if I start adjusting the timing of the bomb throw such that I throw it down earlier, it might not then keep the opponent in shield because it is thrown closer to the ground i.e. less frame advantage. I might have to resort to a FH approach, but we'll see.

Nope, it works from a SH. This is sick.

[For the record, the second hit of Nair gives the same 1 frame advantage on shield-drop and -6 on OoS option that the first hit does despite the fact that it does slightly less damage.]

The bomb to double Nair does 2/3 shield damage, so if the opponent's shield is lowish, you can run up, SH bomb down throw, continue to drift into them and buffer a Nair, and if they shield the bomb, they will be forced against their will to shield the first hit of Nair, at which point they will have two options and two options only: either get hit by the second hit of Nair (and leave with their shield even further depleted), or get their shield broken. Sickness.

Edit: See this post http://smashboards.com/threads/trea...h-lab-and-at-list.380910/page-7#post-20234176 for more detail.

dude... chill

 

[FOR SCIENCE]

dude... chill

How is him putting out data worthy of a chill?

 

[LotadAlittle]

How is him putting out data worthy of a chill?

I'm referring to how in depth he went and just how much he typed

 

[JesterJaded]

I'm referring to how in depth he went and just how much he typed

A Link with a shield breaker is worthy of a thousand-page book, imo. I can't wait to try this 0_0

 

[Moffe]

In other words if you by any chance have the tech skill to place a double bomb to double nair you got yourself a 100% shield break? we might have to lab on what to do if you get a shield break.

What if someone shield a returning boomerang? and you link a sh bomb throw down to double nair after?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

In other words if you by any chance have the tech skill to place a double bomb to double nair you got yourself a 100% shield break? we might have to lab on what to do if you get a shield break.

What if someone shield a returning boomerang? and you link a sh bomb throw down to double nair after?

It's not a guaranteed thing. They can choose to drop shield or try an OoS option and get hit.
And even if you somehow set it up so that a second bomb hit, I highly doubt that this would be enough to break a full shield even if all four hits connected. And even if it was enough, that situation isn't the kind of thing that can be (realistically) deliberately set up in a real match, so meh.

 

[JesterJaded]

It's not a guaranteed thing. They can choose to drop shield or try an OoS option and get hit.
And even if you somehow set it up so that a second bomb hit, I highly doubt that this would be enough to break a full shield even if all four hits connected. And even if it was enough, that situation isn't the kind of thing that can be (realistically) deliberately set up in a real match, so meh.

At the very least, I think labbing optimal setups post-shieldbreak would be worth it on the off chance the opponent doesn't know about the combo or for whatever reason shields all hits thinking he or she would have enough shield for it not to break. It could mean the difference between a chunk of damage or closing the stock.

 

[Moobussir]

As of Patch 1.1.3, Up-throw now does 6 damage instead of 7.

What's interesting to note is that Up-throw has 2 hits, that before this patch, did 5 and 2 damage. But now they do 4 and 2 damage. So the final hit's knockback is technically unchanged.

From what I can tell, this means is that Up-Throw kills a little worse (Probably 1% worse) when used by itself, and at low percents, this move has SLIGHTLY less knockback. But it doesn't even matter since his Up-Throw take so LONG to end. In fact, it's not a true combo on fast fallers like Fox and Capt. Falcon, even tested on Bowser (Tested in training mode at 0%, the combo counter doesn't register it as a combo. Tested Up-Tilt, Up-Smash, Up-Air, even F-Tilt). However, it's possible that this will still true combo at 0% or so since the difference might be of 1-2 frames.

I'm not a data miner so I can't figure out all the knockback stuff, but as of now, this change isn't noted on the official patch notes board, and it's the only thing I've noticed (Though I haven't tested around much).

EDIT: But I guess this means that U-throw into U-air works for 1 more %, isn't that such a worthy change?? Boy what a great throw combo that doesn't even guarantee a KO...

 

[Halfy]

As of Patch 1.1.3, Up-throw now does 6 damage instead of 7.

What's interesting to note is that Up-throw has 2 hits, that before this patch, did 5 and 2 damage. But now they do 4 and 2 damage. So the final hit's knockback is technically unchanged.

From what I can tell, this means is that Up-Throw kills a little worse (Probably 1% worse) when used by itself, and at low percents, this move has SLIGHTLY less knockback. But it doesn't even matter since his Up-Throw take so LONG to end. In fact, it's not a true combo on fast fallers like Fox and Capt. Falcon, even tested on Bowser (Tested in training mode at 0%, the combo counter doesn't register it as a combo. Tested Up-Tilt, Up-Smash, Up-Air, even F-Tilt). However, it's possible that this will still true combo at 0% or so since the difference might be of 1-2 frames.

I'm not a data miner so I can't figure out all the knockback stuff, but as of now, this change isn't noted on the official patch notes board, and it's the only thing I've noticed (Though I haven't tested around much).

EDIT: But I guess this means that U-throw into U-air works for 1 more %, isn't that such a worthy change?? Boy what a great throw combo that doesn't even guarantee a KO...

Just tested this, and its still 7.

 

[Moobussir]

Just tested this, and its still 7.

What? Not to doubt you, but are you sure you're updated and all? It was consistently doing 6 for me.

 

[Halfy]

What? Not to doubt you, but are you sure you're updated and all? It was consistently doing 6 for me.

I'm sure I'm updated, I have cloud.
Are you sure it wasn't just staling that made it do 6?

 

[Moobussir]

I'm sure I'm updated, I have cloud.
Are you sure it wasn't just staling that made it do 6?

Well I did it in training, so it couldn't have staled. I consistently did use Up-Throw, and their percent was always increasing by 6, so it's not 6.5 or something. But I also reset, and switched out other opponents, and had it engrained in my mind that it did 6. I'm going to try and get a video up or something, or I'll deconfirm if, idk, I was dreaming or something.

 

[Dɛαd]

Up-Throw do 7% for me.

 

[Moobussir]

Up-Throw do 7% for me.

Halfy and I were discussing the Up-Throw doing 6 or 7% privately, and basically, I feel like when I booted the game that time, for some reason something weird must have happened when it loaded, because I was consistently doing 6% on every Up-Throw that time. But now that I reloaded the game and tried to replicate it, I can't. I got it a few times on Rosalina but I didn't record it, and I couldn't get it again on Fox, and Halfy couldn't get it on Bowser.

My last theory was that, you know how Up-Throw has 2 hits that do 2% and 5%, and that 5% comes from the slice of his sword? I managed to replicate the 4% coming from his sword by hitting a 3rd target in this video: https://youtu.be/j8ZSgf1jaX0?t=3m . But that's the closest I got to proving it. Perhaps when I booted the game, that 4% sourspot was the part striking my opponent instead of the 5% part? Since that slice still does 5% and 4% on 3rd party targets depending on where they get sliced (Usually the front is 5% and the back is 4%, but not consistent, as the video shows).

Basically, I guess disregard what I said? If we're all getting 7% again, then I guess we have nothing to worry about. I feel bad for not being able to prove what I saw, even if it wasn't normal and it doesn't matter, but I guess we can't do much about it.

PS. I was wrong in my analysis anyway, the 2 hits did 2% and 4%, so we would have had less kill power by more then 1%, less knockback by a higher margin, etc. BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER ANYONE SO DON'T WORRY XD

 

[Dɛαd]

Updated for V 1.1.4

 

[LotadAlittle]

Well bair has 5 frames less landing lag and f smash can now link properly and consistently, those are both confirmed, but I don't know of anything else

 

[Fluorescent]

Nonetheless these buffs help us a lot. Knowing that F-smash can now link consistently makes cleaning stocks easier and having less lag frames on B-air makes it a bit more safer which defiantly makes Toon better (even by a small margin.)

 

[Phobos_]

It seems there's another tiny buff:

"Up-B 1 (uncharged) start-up reduced, from 11 -> 9. Total frames reduced, from 82 -> 80. Up-B 1 (full charge) start-up reduced, from 70 -> 68. Total frames reduced, from 141 -> 140. Up-B 3 (uncharged) start-up reduced, from 11 -> 9. Up-B 3 (full charge) start-up reduced, from 70 -> 68. In each case, the minimum charge time was reduced (initial charge animation was sped up), so Toon Link reaches the chargeable frame faster."

Neat.

 

[Moobussir]

I haven't tested anything yet, but I want to ask. With B-air's reduced landing lag, at low %'s, is it possible to link B-air into, say, F-tilt? I've used it a lot in the past but I don't think it was guaranteed. With the 5 frames, how is it now?

 

[mush21]

Toon link finally got some buffs! I was hoping for reduced landing lag on bair and nair, and got one of the two. Bair is certainly more useful now....I wonder if this opens up any new combos/followups. The improved upB is a welcome surprise!! I use it to catch rolls and now it's even more useful. Awesome.

I'm still holding out hope for an improved nair if there's another balance patch.

 

[Moobussir]

B-air to B-air is a true combo! At certain percents, but let me finish testing this, and I'll document this in the meta thread too.

...I take it back, Dɛαd beat me too it XD

:http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-critique-thread.368737/page-10#post-20838015

 

[LotadAlittle]

From the same person: "Typo in the OP: Full Charge spin attack duration should be 141 -> 140, not 70 -> 68. And flying spin attack doesn't have a duration change."
Not as good as we thought, but still, I'll take what I can get.
I like up b as a mixup sometimes, so this is kinda cool.
I'm gonna check out bair - bair when I get home so I can see the %s and if it's a kill option.

 

[Drig786]

B-air to B-air is a true combo! At certain percents,

well this takes me back to brawl

 

[mush21]

Sorry if this is old/known information, but Toon Link can now bomb jump cancel throw into a standing up B on heavy and fast fallers from 0 to 11%. It does 16% damage. I don't remember this working pre 1.1.4.

It doesn't seem to work on normal weight/fallers and light characters from my minimal testing.

Another nice mixup/gimmick is to jct up and immediately up B. If it hits, the bomb will usually fall on them for 15-16% damage total.

You guys can determine how useful this ends up being.

Again, my apologies if this is old news.

 

[CURRY]

Sorry if this is old/known information, but Toon Link can now bomb jump cancel throw into a standing up B on heavy and fast fallers from 0 to 11%. It does 16% damage. I don't remember this working pre 1.1.4.

It doesn't seem to work on normal weight/fallers and light characters from my minimal testing.

Another nice mixup/gimmick is to jct up and immediately up B. If it hits, the bomb will usually fall on them for 15-16% damage total.

You guys can determine how useful this ends up being.

Again, my apologies if this is old news.

Bahaha, the bomb -> upB sounds so silly, and it's not hard at all to do.
And if you whiff, you punish yourself with your own bomb. Perfect.

Thank you. I will take note of this for friendlies.

 

[ILJ]

Bomb to Up-B is actually very practical once your opponents percent rises to the point where up air is no longer easily followed up by. Of course i mean a flying spin attack not a grounded one.

 

[Moobussir]

Sorry if this is old/known information, but Toon Link can now bomb jump cancel throw into a standing up B on heavy and fast fallers from 0 to 11%. It does 16% damage. I don't remember this working pre 1.1.4.

It doesn't seem to work on normal weight/fallers and light characters from my minimal testing.

Another nice mixup/gimmick is to jct up and immediately up B. If it hits, the bomb will usually fall on them for 15-16% damage total.

You guys can determine how useful this ends up being.

Again, my apologies if this is old news.

Do you mean approaching with the JCBT forward, hitting the opponent and following up with Up-B? Or even using the bomb tossed up to hit a tall opponent first, then trapping them in Up-B? If that's the case, why not use Up-Tilt instead? Unless I misunderstand.

What I can say is that if you use your second tip (JCBT Up and Up-B), if your opponent gets launched behind you, they may get hit by the bomb on the way down, which leads to another attack like B-air or Up-Smash. This is similar to my technique of approaching with JCBT Up and grabbing, D-throwing and launching into the bomb for another attack. Though I will try to lab this after my 3DS gets repaired to see how we can consistently launch the opponent back. It's a good mixup, though for some reason I don't see it being easy to run in and Up-B quickly.

 

[LotadAlittle]

Bomb to Up-B is actually very practical once your opponents percent rises to the point where up air is no longer easily followed up by. Of course i mean a flying spin attack not a grounded one.

not sure if it's true, but bomb - perfect pivot - up tilt is good. I know it's true if you space the bomb so that you don't need the perfect pivot, but I still think that going for perfect pivot up tilt is a much better option.