Trimming the Hedges: Ivysaur 3.0 Development Rationale

[ScaryPixel]

In the case of Lucario, Ike, Sonic – all three of these characters received significant nerfs targeting things that made them break smash "rules" too much.

I'm just inquiring, what do you mean by smash "rules" and how did they break them? I wasn't following the scene much when Ike and Lucario were considered overpowered, but I have an idea of what you meant in Sonic's case.

 

[nLiM8d]

I have an idea of what you meant in Sonic's case.

I'm guessing you're familiar with the reasoning here.

Sonic could jump cancel his side B and down B at any time. From jumping out of the move he could airdodge down and away from the opponent, or wavedash if you're familiar with the tech. This let Sonic engage the opponent without committing to anything. He could move forward and around them and attack whenever he wanted to and put himself out of his opponents reach if he didn't like the interaction.

That's an ability that should not be allowed on any character as it lets them dictate the flow of the match and the timing of the exchanges entirely as they want, leaving the Sonic player at a constant offensive advantage.

 

[Dng3]

Guys, bair is amazing. It's good for approach, pressure, and as someone said, it's like the best edge guard tool in the game. It's like the best and safest option in neutral for Ivy too. With its range and power to kill throughout the entire move now, instead of power of the tips in 2.5 and the inside of 2.6, I feel it may be even a little overpowered....

Razorleaf may have dominated the game in 2.6 but I can't help but have a bad feeling about bair becoming the next "go to" move all the time.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's not fast enough to be a catch-all for everything, and it doesn't combo into anything, really (though you can get solid pressure afterward in many cases). It's a great poke and edgeguard tool, but its uses are fairly limited to that. It's fine to have powerful tools, but they shouldn't do everything at once (as was often the case for 2.6 Ivysaur). F-Air and N-Air are still very good in their own right, and mixing them up will be key to a great neutral game.

It's worth nothing that the first hit of B-Air will reset someone who misses their tech at pretty much any percent.

 

[Imrik]

In the case of Lucario, Ike, Sonic – all three of these characters received significant nerfs targeting things that made them (1) break smash "rules" too much, (2) achieve a level of success disproportionate to player skill, and/or (3) overly centralized on a small set of moves or tactics. So yes, we went after them with the nerf stick, so to speak. Now, it would be one thing if we left it at that, *but* over the following updates each of them has received considerably more thoughtful buffs that allow them to be more successful in a balance sense without aggravating the design issues (1)/(2)/(3) that affected them (and by extension the rest of the game) before.

And as we've shown in v2.6, even the spacies aren't untouchable as you claim, and *in general* they do an acceptable job of adhering to those three design issues. 3.0 Ivy has a lot of superlative moves and traits that the spacies are jealous of, even if it doesn't seem that way on first glance.

So yeah, even if Ivy is objectively worse than 2.6 or even 2.5, we feel that it's better to correct design faults as early as possible and then fix any lingering balance issues over time with well thought out buffs. We really did try as hard as possible to fix design issues on Ivy without cutting in to her viability *too* much, and as 3.0 plays out we'll see what we have left to do for the future.

I never claimed the spacies were "untouchable" just that the nerfs and buffs given to them and the melee vets seem more measured, slow, and thought out than the ones handed out to everyone else. There is a very real and very apparent dichotomy in the respect with which the PMBR treats melee vets, and the disregard with which they treat Brawl vets which hurts people who choose to play the characters you and the rest of the BR must have spent alot of time on.

It is too soon to judge on how well you've done with Ivy. I know for myself she feels so slow now I've lost most of my interest in playing her. What I can objectively say though is that I wish you would take a measured approach to all of the cast. If it is OK for Fox to stay at the top of the tier list while a large portion of the community screams for nerfs, and you slowly and steadily work changes in, then it is also ok for other characters to do that as well. The wild swings in relative power and playstyle imposed on any brawl vet who catches the ire of the community is damaging to those of us who would like to play the new characters.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Would someone care to clarify the thought process behind the words in bold? I trying to get a feel for where you're coming from with the wind frames deal.

We still wanted Synthesis to have a unique trait that rewarded players for experimentation and made it more useful than just for its healing ability, without it being obnoxious and unnatural. We could've just scrapped the idea entirely, but we decided to try this (among other stuff that didn't make the cut) instead, and testing has shown positive results.

lmrik, it's worth noting that these changes have been in testing for months by high-level players leading up to this, so it's not like we're just shooting in the dark and changing things on a whim. We are confident that this is a good direction to take the character, and as Shell said earlier, design faults are a big concern, especialy if they really screw with the balance of the game as a whole. It remains to be seen what, if any, things need to be changed in future versions, but the best way to figure it out is to push this character to her limit, so, help us out there.

 

[nLiM8d]

I basically played a match to identify what the changes looked like in action. I'm sure going a few more rounds to explore won't hurt. One thing I wish for, which may only be relative to me, the weight properties on her neutral air.

I still see some use in its lingering effect, so I think that quality should remain. However, if it were heavier, I see a great deal of potential in it its follow up capabilities when going into an L-Cancel.

@Reflex

If you don't mind, could you elaborate on some of the factors that made you guys 'reluctant' to alter the synthesis design. Pardon me, that word is in my head now and its making me curious as a result.

 

[Swann]

Razorleaf may have dominated the game in 2.6 but I can't help but have a bad feeling about bair becoming the next "go to" move all the time.

Honestly? It feels like I can shut down some entire characters with 3.0 bair alone. I definitely caught someone above a platform with FH bair->1st hit bair (which reset their flubbed tech)->SH bair->WL bair->bair->DJ bair and they were too far to recover.

Like, are you serious? This move.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You can spotdodge it pretty easily and her aerial mobility, while improved, isn't all that great. People just need to be smarter about how they deal with it, I feel. CC is still an option against B-Air1, as well.

 

[Dng3]

My favourite thing to do: opponent is trying to recover, ivy running and reverse aerial bair-ing off the stage, and opponent is killed/gimped.

Ivy's new aerial mobility is amazing with this move. Now thats Style baby!

 

[Swann]

@Reflex
Oh yeah, for sure. There are certainly options around it. I just happen to love when it's a possible option like a dozen times in a row and each time the other guy chooses the wrong way to deal with it.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Have you tested to make sure that every character has some option against the synthesis air-blow or whatever you called it? It looks like that might make returning to the stage utterly impossible for some of the cast. I'm biased, so I'm obviously thinking of Bowser here, but maybe there's others too.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Most characters hardly get pushed at all; it's largely affected by current horizontal mobility. Bowser's Up-B does not give a **** about it unless he's juuuuust barely reaching the edge (like any other character). It's actually the case for a large majority of the characters. It's very good against ledge sweetspotting, but it's otherwise not so hot against stopping regular recoveries.

Besides, offstage Bowser gets massacred by B-Air. I'd be way worried about that instead.

 

[DayLaMike]

I think Ivy is terrible now. Coming from an Ivy main you guys stripped everything he was from him to be a defensive character? First off is that even fun? No, second is that going to be even viable in competitive tournament gameplay? No, he will get demolished. Sure you can space, but what about someone with projectiles? Razor leaf? Oh yeah that move is absolutely terrible now. He already had a hard time approaching if you didn't use razor leaf now what do you expect him to use, on someone such as Samus? Stand back and expect them to approach you when she will just stand back and shoot missals. Ivy is ruined, and it's because you guys don't want any top tier characters. What about Fox? I don't see him getting nerfed. She already would get beat by Fox, and now she's at the bottom of the teir list. 2.6 was honestly a better game, and by all of the negative feedback you guys have received about Ivysour I hope you see that. Very disappointed with how she was remade.

You are over reacting. Ivysaur is really not as bad as all you guys are making it out to be. 3.0 hasn't even been out a week, you can't just condemn the character this quickly. Explore the new options, the character has been reconstructed, thus you must do the same with how you play it. I've been playing Ivy since the alpha leaked shortly before 2.5 released and I'm fine with the changes(in fact I kinda like this Ivy more). It might take a little extra work to win a match, but we got this. I'd like to think we're a resourceful bunch that can think of new ways to approach the game.

 

[Yeerk]

Speaking of the windbox ....... it ****s with short range characters so much if you do things like approaching FAir > nB landing cancel as a mix up.

I thought the timing on this was impossibly strict until I realized you weren't talking about SH Fair.....right?

I'm the one that originally mentioned it. Its done abusing ledge mechanics, not move mechanics. Grab edge > drop off while still invincible > nB, shine, w/e.

I think I'm taking you too literally. I was trying this earlier and it seems impossible to do this and still recover...you have to jump before using nB, whether it be ledgejump or doublejump. Just clarifying for whoever reads that and gets frustrated that it doesn't work.

Right now I'm just fighting a cpu, spamming synthesis whenever I get the chance, seeing all that it can do. It has some weird properties. Like sending airborn Jigglypuff across almost the entire Yoshi's Island stage. Not sure why/how?

Anyways I'm excited to see what you guys can do this weekend. Good luck.

 

[jtm94]

So I got to play one of my friends who plays Ivy today.... Ivy is still amazing... All I have to say is if he can transition from 2.6b Ivy to 3.0 in a period of a few days I'm sure others can too if they accept it.... Like... I know razorleaf got nerfed, but he was STILL getting me with it despite that. And the linking of aerials + seedbomb + Up B killing at like 50% leads me to believe she is still much better than some of the cast.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I thought the timing on this was impossibly strict until I realized you weren't talking about SH Fair.....right?

It is easy if you practice it.
You can also SH Fair > Nair > L cancel & Nair landing hit > utilt
Links together well for combos and catches a lot of potential shield grabbers.

 

[Sudai]

Mch is right. SHFAir > nB is very doable with some practice.

nB off the edge does require a double jump but so long as you start synthesis right as you jump, your windbox hits almost the same spot as if you just fell off with it. My bad on that.

 

[Yeerk]

It is easy if you practice it.
You can also SH Fair > Nair > L cancel & Nair landing hit > utilt
Links together well for combos and catches a lot of potential shield grabbers.

For some reason it seems like the timing changes, maybe that's because I Fair too late, or my nB "tap" isn't early/fast enough. Yeah, Nair's easier because you don't have to release A before hitting the ground. Does anyone know what the timeframe (in frames) is to hit synth after a SH Fair? And is it easier/harder if you hit a shield as opposed to whiffing?

Mch is right. SHFAir > nB is very doable with some practice.

nB off the edge does require a double jump but so long as you start synthesis right as you jump, your windbox hits almost the same spot as if you just fell off with it. My bad on that.

Yep, got it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I believe you have either 3 or 4 frames after immediate SH F-Air before landing. The Synth push happens on Frame 2, though.

 

[TreK]

Wow, I don't think I've ever played so much smash in a week. 2 smashfests + a two days tourney + about 20h of CPU practice

Ivy was fun on day 1 of release due to the new stuff factor, then she got boring when I realized she couldn't be played offensively anymore, and now she's so-so.
-Razor Leaf : still OP. Anyone who claims otherwise is using it wrong and straight up spamming, because this move being a slow moving multihit makes it WAY too easy to land lololol
-Stun spore : the main nerf comes from the loss of range, there are about half as much combos that you can end in a stun spore star KO now. The loss in falling speed did also stop me from covering my landings with stun spore -> DJ -> dair. But overall still solid.
-Vine Whip : I did not notice the buff in the tipper at all. It's also harder to set up due to the tweaks in other moves.
-fair and bair : they lost all of their combo ability due to the lower angle, which is meh. It does help gimping a lot though. I can't say I like the trade, even though it's technically an advantageous one.
-dair and uair : Even with the stronger sweetspot, uair is still kind of weak due to the higher ceilings. Dair is still solid and still my favorite move, I hadn't finished exploring all the possibilities with 2.6b dair anyways. Overall, I feel like Ivy has lost a lot of killing power.
-nair : the way you based all of Ivy's combos on her nair kinda sucks, because landing it on anyone with range can only be done if you play hardcore defensive. Hi Marth, I enjoyed winning your matchup for a good 6 months. Now I'm back to being 4-6 against you for the next few years, just like in my good old Brawl. It also made me hate crouch cancelling even more than I already do, which is quite an achievement.
-Synthesis : the windbox is a nice touch, but it is greatly inconsistent. The only useful hitbox is the inner one, which is never going to hit outside of gimping a non sweetspotted recovery.
-ftilt : I'm okay with it being escapable, but punishable on hit ? Meh.
-dtilt : as inconsistent as ever. That may just be me however.
-throws : bthrow is now legit. dthrow is now garbage. uthrow is still solid. fthrow is still meh.
-movement : the buff is hardly noticeable. Much like in 2.5b, characters with high mobility stomp all over Ivy's pretty dinosaur face without putting in too much effort. The only noticeable change is that her wavedash is now worth using.
-18% solar beam : it is very noticeable, and helps a bunch.

I think the only moves left untouched were jab, dash attack and utilt. Wtf. feels like learning a new character, when the one thing I didn't like about P:M was already that the melee kids had a headstart on me.

She still isn't as fun to play as as before, but playing her against human opponents did help remotivate me.

 

[Serris]

I felt that slowing down so many of her moves would only make her even worse against fast characters, and that notion seems to be accurate based on matches I've seen and played personally. Marth just stomps all over her now. I think 4-6 is being generous. I'd peg it more at 3-7. When Marth gets momentum, he takes control, and there isn't much you can do about it because Ivysaur is too slow to react or keep him out reliably.

 

[Dng3]

CQC has always been a problem for Ivy, which makes me wonder why her synthesis shine hit was replaced with something less useful. Windbox hit just isnt worth it when there's better options.

 

[Serris]

After playing Ivysaur in friendlies for about two hours, I think Razor Leaf's slow start-up makes it too clunky to use as an effective zoning tool. I'm fine with the rest of the changes, though I do think Synthesis would be better off as an actual hitbox instead of a windbox.

 

[The Derrit]

I'm just gonna throw out that the top Ivysaur in Apex, Denti, did pretty much exactly what I said was going to happen to Ivysaur. In combat, fairs and bairs all game, a few razor leaves, next to no uairs or dairs outside of healing off of shyguys, and nairs out of shield sometimes. didn't see a single down-b

I don't think he played Ivy 'the way she was meant to be played' or anything like that, but when your other moves aren't nearly as effective anymore you end up with a character that sticks with what they've got left.

 

[Yeerk]

I would hate for anyone to base their Ivy play off of how Denti played. With that said, I only saw him against DEHF (probably what most people saw). Who did he lose to in loser's? Was that recorded?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I watched some more MMs by him he did mostly Bairs (nice noting also a Dair sweetspot), he used down-B mostly when being at the left side of rock transformation in PS1 and he didnt want anyone to get in so he could heal himself. I liked his play actually, gj Denti. But its right that Bair is the new to-go-move of ivy (some might call it "spam")

 

[Chesstiger2612]

like the neutral-B windbox actually, nice idea Reflex^^ My only problem with it is you don't really see when you got it, some light effect would be nice

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It's refreshing to see a character's playerbase not declare a witch hunt on the PMBR following a nerf.

 

[The Derrit]

It's refreshing to see a character's playerbase not declare a witch hunt on the PMBR following a nerf.

If that's supposed to be sarcasm then it's not very good sarcasm. Ivysaur's not bad the way some might allude to but it's true that the overall usefulness of the vast majority of her moves has gone down, while the b-air's usefulness has gone way up. So logic follows that b-air is the move to use now, while fair still has a big hitbox so it's still worth using.

And I think the only recorded video of Denti in bracket was against DEHF. I'm watching it now and it's reaffirming what I thought I had seen, tons of backairs and a f-air sometimes, with not really much of anything else being used consistently. I also agree that Denti's play was not what Ivy play "should" be (there are definitely other options to explore), but in the interest of making an interesting character, her moves are maybe not balanced around each other ideally.

I'll keep playing her regardless.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It wasn't sarcasm; changed Ike, Lucario, and Sonic ended up significantly decreasing the player base.

 

[TreK]

Month 2 of 3.0 Ivy :
-I still make most people ragequit
-I still rushdown
-People are starting to spread a rumor that the PMBR nerfed Ivysaur so that they would feel even ****tier for losing to me.

My response ?
Try harder PMBR.

Jokes aside, I still stand by what I said 10 posts above after an additionnal month and a half of 3.0 Ivy.

 

[The_AceSox]

As a new PM player coming into 3.0. I feel like ivy is great where she's at. Plenty of decent combos, excellent gimping ability, and the overall ability to annoy your opponents makes her one of the most fun characters in PM for me. Great work!

 

[Seagull Joe]

Pretty sure is about to lose her Bair in the next patch guys . All the PMBR people around my area say that she needs a nerf. She already has no CQC and lacks approaches, but they're gonna make her worse...

 

[Dng3]

Pretty sure is about to lose her Bair in the next patch guys . All the PMBR people around my area say that she needs a nerf. She already has no CQC and lacks approaches, but they're gonna make her worse...

I had a very good feeling since 3.0 dropped that Ivy's Bair would be a concern. It simply has too much going for it to make up for Ivy's nerf from 2.6 to 3.0. It has range, speed, two hits, and power all through out. A move that kills, gimps, and controls space all at once. It became the new 2.6 razorleaf.

I just hope Ivy gets something in compensation if Bair gets nerfed, such as fixing F-tilt so it's not punishable on hit up close, slightly faster razorleaf, fixing the technical issues with vine whip, third victory pose, etc. In addition, a nerf to Falco and Fo-...yea never mind lol.

 

[TreK]

"oh no, that character we designed around edgeguarding is too strong at edgeguarding, we must nerf !"

jkjk. I honestly doubt they'd nerf bair without giving something else to compensate, that would be dumb now that she isn't even high tier or anything. But hey, what do I know, they came up with that ftilt and thought it was a good idea, too.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'll just be pissed if they nerf her Bair. She will lose one of her two amazingly safe moves.

 

[Dng3]

Not to mention one of her few practical kill moves. Since Uair and Dair sweet spot hits became more strict they're not as easily reliable for killing, even if they're stronger from 2.6. Aside from that, we have solarbeam which needs charging, smash attacks which can be risky and only used on the ground, her back/forward throw, and vine whip which isn't as bad with set up.

 

[Xiivi]

It's fine if they compensate. Have their been any significant tournament results from Ivysaur besides Denti/Reflex anyway? Looking through the rankings she doesn't come off as a character that's getting disproportionate tournament placings in comparison to her usage.

 

[Swann]

I took a match off PP (JV 3'd), but I can't travel much due to full-time job stuff. I'm really not amazing, anyway.