Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[fogbadge]

It's the same BS as why they make the more recent starter Pokémon into anthro-furries. Apparently the starring roles need to be humanoid to be more "relatable" to the audience... despite them being, y'know, animals.

cite your sources

 

[MasterCheef]

The amount of butt-hurt of someone's favorite character not moving forward into Smash 6 is ridiculous.
Seriously no one is going to force you to move on to the next game.

 

[UserKev]

The amount of butt-hurt of someone's favorite character not moving forward into Smash 6 is ridiculous.
Seriously no one is going to force you to move on to the next game.

God, I have a hard time standing the Smash Ultimate Deluxe crowd. They treat the possibility as a sheer necessity over anything authentic. A Deluxe would bring mediocrity.

 

[BritishGuy54]

God, I have a hard time standing the Smash Ultimate Deluxe crowd. They treat the possibility as a sheer necessity over anything authentic. A Deluxe would bring mediocrity.

Yeah. While an Ultimate Deluxe would be cool, some characters are already dated, and NEED updates. The ones that come to mind for me are Mario, Link, and Shulk.

Link and Shulk should really have updated and alternate designs as a base skin (Link), or an alt skin (Shulk).

Cappy and FLUDD are already outdated as a taunt and move for Mario. Make Mario’s down special a ground pound, please.

And you might as well throw Inkling or even Olimar into that crowd too, if more recent games add new mechanics.

 

[MasterCheef]

Yeah. While an Ultimate Deluxe would be cool, some characters are already dated, and NEED updates.

.
.
The ones that come to mind for me are ;
.
.
Samus ; , w/ Metroid Dread
Ganondorf ; , w/ ToTK
Inkling ; , w/ Spatoon 3
Mario; , w/ SMW
Kirby ; , w/ use a lot of his transformations
Pikachu ; , w/ much better options
Palutena = cause her specials are actually not very good
Princess Peach ; , w/ Princess Peach Showtime

a lot of other characters just need smaller reworks

 

[Louie G.]

Kirby ; , w/ use a lot of his transformations

I think I've already said this here before, but we don't need this. Kirby's Copy Ability is rightfully at the root of his moveset and keeping his normals relatively... normal keeps his kit balanced. Many of his punches, kicks and grabs are largely pulled from the most combat oriented abilities - namely Fighter and Suplex.

So his moveset is already reference heavy but just doesn't aim for the spread of someone like Mega Man, rightfully so because Kirby does not maintain his copy abilities (outside of Milky Way Wishes) and needs to commit to one. The ones we already have represented in his moveset are fine enough, but we don't need to overdo it by making everything a different reference. If anything needs to change it's simply making Kirby stronger, and perhaps rethinking his air game a bit. Consider that Kirby has to remain one of the simplest and most accessible characters on the roster.

The one thing holding Kirby back right now is the lack of his slide kick, one of his signature moves with or without a copy ability. I really hope they finally cave in next game, because there's no reason to exclude it anymore. It would do some wonders to keeping his already solid horizontal combo momentum in tact.

Princess Peach ; , w/ Princess Peach Showtime

This game looks really cool, but no. We don't need Peach to transform into a knight and a detective mid moveset when she already has a very practical and imaginative kit that suits her character well. In fact I think she is one of the best designed characters in the game and it would be a travesty to uproot her moveset to add random references.

Maybe if this becomes a successful spinoff franchise like Luigi's Mansion, but even so they've been very modest about letting Luigi use the Poltergust and I'm in favor of that decision too. Mario characters have several layers to them and Smash does not need to buckle down to every single one, keeping a character functional and fun is more important than making contemporary references. Just change Peach's final smash and call it a day.

 

[Lenidem]

I think I've already said this here before, but we don't need this. Kirby's Copy Ability is rightfully at the root of his moveset and keeping his normals relatively... normal keeps his kit balanced. Many of his punches, kicks and grabs are largely pulled from the most combat oriented abilities - namely Fighter and Suplex.

So his moveset is already reference heavy but just doesn't aim for the spread of someone like Mega Man, rightfully so because Kirby does not maintain his copy abilities (outside of Milky Way Wishes) and needs to commit to one. The ones we already have represented in his moveset are fine enough, but we don't need to overdo it by making everything a different reference. If anything needs to change it's simply making Kirby stronger, and perhaps rethinking his air game a bit. Consider that Kirby has to remain one of the simplest and most accessible characters on the roster.

The one thing holding Kirby back right now is the lack of his slide kick, one of his signature moves with or without a copy ability. I really hope they finally cave in next game, because there's no reason to exclude it anymore. It would do some wonders to keeping his already solid horizontal combo momentum in tact.



This game looks really cool, but no. We don't need Peach to transform into a knight and a detective mid moveset when she already has a very practical and imaginative kit that suits her character well. In fact I think she is one of the best designed characters in the game and it would be a travesty to uproot her moveset to add random references.

Maybe if this becomes a successful spinoff franchise like Luigi's Mansion, but even so they've been very modest about letting Luigi use the Poltergust and I'm in favor of that decision too. Mario characters have several layers to them and Smash does not need to buckle down to every single one, keeping a character functional and fun is more important than making contemporary references. Just change Peach's final smash and call it a day.

But give Peach a lot of new alternative costumes. She deserves it.

 

[FazDude]

Why are folks so quick to latch onto a new game to be the focus of a theoretical character rework? Most of the time, I can’t really see it aging well from the scope of the character’s overall image - Ganondorf will probably be different from his ToTK counterpart come his next appearance, and I doubt Princess Peach: Showtime’s unique forms will be referenced much outside of that game when it comes to Peach’s appearances in the overall Mario series.

It just feels like a race to capture the newest big role rather than making a moveset that can last for a while, the latter of which is important when it comes to competitive players moving from one Smash to the next.

 

[Mamboo07]

I think I've already said this here before, but we don't need this. Kirby's Copy Ability is rightfully at the root of his moveset and keeping his normals relatively... normal keeps his kit balanced. Many of his punches, kicks and grabs are largely pulled from the most combat oriented abilities - namely Fighter and Suplex.

So his moveset is already reference heavy but just doesn't aim for the spread of someone like Mega Man, rightfully so because Kirby does not maintain his copy abilities (outside of Milky Way Wishes) and needs to commit to one. The ones we already have represented in his moveset are fine enough, but we don't need to overdo it by making everything a different reference. If anything needs to change it's simply making Kirby stronger, and perhaps rethinking his air game a bit. Consider that Kirby has to remain one of the simplest and most accessible characters on the roster.

The one thing holding Kirby back right now is the lack of his slide kick, one of his signature moves with or without a copy ability. I really hope they finally cave in next game, because there's no reason to exclude it anymore. It would do some wonders to keeping his already solid horizontal combo momentum in tact.

A huge part of the Kirby series are Copy Abilities.

I can see why you all don't want that, a Kirby moveset with Copy Abilities like what Mega Man does with the Robot Master power ups would look so atrocious and a mess for our pink saviour of Dreamland.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Mario's moveset is a really good example of references done right - Fireball is a pretty direct lift from the source material, sure, but the cape; super jump punch; and tornado are all pretty clearly designed for functionality first and then fitted to a reference, in the sense that they thought "Mario needs a whole body hitbox, how about the spin jump from SMW? Mario needs a reflector, how about a bullfighting version of the SMW cape? Mario needs a recovery with a hitbox, let's have him punch up as a throwback to Mario Bros." - copying the concept, but not the functionality, which is ideally how movesets should be designed. A lot of people argue for overtly-source-accurate movesets by arguing that "characters aren't functions", but surely if you're to adopt that mentality then the functionality of their original games should be ignored too? If you only want to view Mario as a character and not a function, then having a yellow cape is the only info that should be relevant, not that he glides with it.

I've always been a bit iffy on FLUDD, but an all-rounder starter character having 2 defensive specials and 2 offensive makes a lot of sense, given how often beginners tend to fall into "overrely on offense" syndrome in any game.

Ironically, you could argue that Mario's moveset was more outdated when Smash 64 and Melee came out than now, given that 2D Mario was all but dead at the time and none of Mario's abilities from those games were being used in games like 64 and Sunshine.

 

[Louie G.]

A huge part of the Kirby series are Copy Abilities.

And I think this is already represented wonderfully through Kirby's Neutral Special, granting him one of the most unique abilities in the game and the heart of his character. Once every attack of his is some other flashy copy ability, we lose the impact of the action of copying an opponent's attack. The diverse spread of moves that Kirby can perform through various copy abilities is what Kirby is all about, and fortunately he has one move that allows that element of the series to flourish by giving Kirby a unique way to interact with every character on the roster.

So that's what I meant - my goal isn't to downplay this core element of the series, but rather argue that it is already perfectly represented as is. Kirby is a simple little guy until he eats up an enemy, and then he has access to a crazy new power. That's how the series is and that's exactly what he is in Smash.

 

[FazDude]

If I were in charge of Mario, I'd probably swap Down B for a Star Spin reflector (basically retheming Cape and moving it to a different input), make Side B another non-projectile way to manage space between Mario and his opponent, and revert Down Air to Melee's.

 

[Quillion]

I'm so glad at least some people are finally seeing the light on how references are not the end-all be-all of moveset design.

Cohesiveness and feel need to be a priority too.

 

[FazDude]

The amount of butt-hurt of someone's favorite character not moving forward into Smash 6 is ridiculous.
Seriously no one is going to force you to move on to the next game.

To comment on this topic, if I were the one calling the shots, I'd make an Ultimate Deluxe for Nintendo's next console... with the condition being that it just has the DLC built-in, alongside bug fixes, balancing tweaks, and better online. That's it - No newcomers, new stages, expanded WoL, anything like that. The resources that would go into that would instead go to a proper Smash 6 on the same console.

That way, you have the big Everyone Is Here game alongside a fresher take on the series, and both on the same console to boot. Would hopefully make it easier for folks to adjust and continue to enjoy both games.

(Or Nintendo's next console can just be backwards compatible with Switch games. Either-or.)

 

[MasterCheef]

(Nintendo's next console can just be backwards compatible with Switch games. Either-or.)

Backwards compatible is acceptable.

I would much rather make room for more newcomers &
rework the old characters

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

There's no practical way that Nintendo and Sakurai could do this, but my dream for the next console would be two different Smash titles during its life cycle (one released near the beginning and the other released near the end) but going in completely different directions.

Make one that's the more conventional sequel, roughly equivalent to the move from Brawl to 4 with the amount of roster changes and an overall emphasis on user generated content (expanded create a stage, fan made break the targets, custom spirit events). There'd be enough ballyhoo with the newcomers and modes to be a successful, albeit somewhat safe Smash follow-up.

The other one is where SSB would go wild. I'm talking wholly redesigned characters, much of the roster getting numerous distinct versions of themselves (shoto Mario, RPG emphasis Mario, 3D abilities Mario), gimmick fighters becoming streamlined, conventional fighters becoming gimmicky, the works. Basically, every potentially out there change or update that could have happened in the last 10 years in many ways does happen and so much of the meta of Smash is fundamentally altered by an ostensible reboot that shakes up so much of what fans were familiar with.

Essentially the Switch 2 gets to experience two potential paths for SSB, not only to please both kinds of fans but also to see which concept may end up having real value as the future of the series.

 

[Quillion]

There's no practical way that Nintendo and Sakurai could do this, but my dream for the next console would be two different Smash titles during its life cycle (one released near the beginning and the other released near the end) but going in completely different directions.

Make one that's the more conventional sequel, roughly equivalent to the move from Brawl to 4 with the amount of roster changes and an overall emphasis on user generated content (expanded create a stage, fan made break the targets, custom spirit events). There'd be enough ballyhoo with the newcomers and modes to be a successful, albeit somewhat safe Smash follow-up.

The other one is where SSB would go wild. I'm talking wholly redesigned characters, much of the roster getting numerous distinct versions of themselves (shoto Mario, RPG emphasis Mario, 3D abilities Mario), gimmick fighters becoming streamlined, conventional fighters becoming gimmicky, the works. Basically, every potentially out there change or update that could have happened in the last 10 years in many ways does happen and so much of the meta of Smash is fundamentally altered by an ostensible reboot that shakes up so much of what fans were familiar with.

Essentially the Switch 2 gets to experience two potential paths for SSB, not only to please both kinds of fans but also to see which concept may end up having real value as the future of the series.

I think they should farm out Smash to an outside (indie maybe?) dev to make the latter. I'd love to see Nintendo support a sprite-based Smash.
----
I've found this hard to put into words before: I think Mr. G&W and Villager have the same general idea in terms of moveset design, but G&W executes it well while Villager falls flat.

It seems that G&W and Villager (and Isabelle) are designed with the same "random mess of references from their games" mentality so they can represent their respective series, but G&W runs circles around Villager in terms of game feel; G&W feels a little slow but satisfyingly powerful for someone so phsically thin, but Villager just feels so awkward and slapdash in terms of feel. Villager just doesn't feel good to play to me, while G&W works well

I know I've been salty over the "random mess of references" approach to moveset design that some echo chambers seem to want, but I guess it's not entirely a bad thing in itself. I still think "random references" movesets should only be a last resort if nothing else can represent a series properly though, and a moveset made with that paradigm absolutely shouldn't feel like a random mess either.

 

[Quillion]

As much as I dislike Bowser's Smash 4-on portrayal as a "deceptively fast" heavy.. I must concede that Ganondorf would be a better designed character with better game feel if his mobility stats were reworked that way as opposed to being "all slow all the time".

Failing that, they could make his Flame Choke and WizFoot have better mobility. Or maybe even do both options.

 

[Perkilator]

I’m sure I’m not alone in this, but for Brawl at least, Mike should’ve been Kirby’s Final Smash (they can keep Mike as an item in 4 onwards).

 

[Quillion]

I’m sure I’m not alone in this, but for Brawl at least, Mike should’ve been Kirby’s Final Smash (they can keep Mike as an item in 4 onwards).

Kirby somehow has way too many ideas for FS, whereas there are other characters like Mario or Link who despite having fighting ability have no ideas for FS.

 

[Perkilator]

Kirby somehow has way too many ideas for FS, whereas there are other characters like Mario or Link who despite having fighting ability have no ideas for FS.

Actually, even back in the Brawl era, Mario had the Mega Mushroom from NSMB DS as a potential Final Smash candidate. I can give you Link, though, even though that changed with Breath of the Wild and Smash Ultimate.

 

[Quillion]

Actually, even back in the Brawl era, Mario had the Mega Mushroom from NSMB DS as a potential Final Smash candidate. I can give you Link, though, even though that changed with Breath of the Wild and Smash Ultimate.

That'd probably be even more boring than Mario Finale now, since it would just be the same as an item, but more potent.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I really like Mario Finale, I like how it plays into the idea of Mario as the basic all-rounder character by being so - not intended as an insult - cliche. Used to hate it, but it's really grown on me.

 

[fogbadge]

let's not forget sakurai first came up with a number of them for smash 64

 

[Glubbfubb]

The original brawl version of Mario Finale hits differently in my opinion

 

[Oracle Link]

The amount of butt-hurt of someone's favorite character not moving forward into Smash 6 is ridiculous.
Seriously no one is going to force you to move on to the next game.

I mean if they dont rerelease smash Ultimate for the next console we are sorta forced to move on!
I mean when was the last time you could buy Brawl?
Also i wanna do new things i already played ultimate a lot!

 

[MasterCheef]

I mean if they dont rerelease smash Ultimate for the next console we are sorta forced to move on!
I mean when was the last time you could buy Brawl?
Also i wanna do new things i already played ultimate a lot!

I expect Switch 2 to be backwards compatible , & on the store for quite a while

 

[Glubbfubb]

Not a smash opinion, but one of plat fighters as a whole, but I sorta wish there was more variety in how movesets are set up, like Smash Bros controls well don't get me wrong, but the fact nearly every Plat fighter does this style of control make them all feel the same, does anyone else get that

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Not a smash opinion, but one of plat fighters as a whole, but I sorta wish there was more variety in how movesets are set up, like Smash Bros controls well don't get me wrong, but the fact nearly every Plat fighter does this style of control make them all feel the same, does anyone else get that

Yeah I get what you mean. Different control schemes could go a long way.

 

[Quillion]

Not a smash opinion, but one of plat fighters as a whole, but I sorta wish there was more variety in how movesets are set up, like Smash Bros controls well don't get me wrong, but the fact nearly every Plat fighter does this style of control make them all feel the same, does anyone else get that

Are you saying that command inputs should be more of a thing in platfighters?

 

[fogbadge]

I don’t like it when people say things are dated in smash. Don’t get me wrong I think there are plenty of characters who would be great updated but for a series about Nintendo who sell nostalgia by the bucket load and about the history of gaming, then should it really matter if something is old?

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I feel like Bandana Waddle Dee, as a Smash pick, isn't inherently terrible, but kinda just rendered irrelevant by two other picks: if you want a Wadde Dee from an inclusion perspective, just put in a generic Waddle Dee! More alt variety, more Kirby games to draw the moveset from, and would be a second mook as opposed to another sidekick (Not that sidekicks are bad ofc, I love the option to play a sidekick solo, but not as much as the option to play as a mook). And if from a functional standpoint you want a small spherical character who spins and pole vaults with a long, non-sword weapon then there's a way cooler character in the Nintendo library who could do exactly that and more.

 

[Lenidem]

I feel like Bandana Waddle Dee, as a Smash pick, isn't inherently terrible, but kinda just rendered irrelevant by two other picks: if you want a Wadde Dee from an inclusion perspective, just put in a generic Waddle Dee! More alt variety, more Kirby games to draw the moveset from, and would be a second mook as opposed to another sidekick (Not that sidekicks are bad ofc, I love the option to play a sidekick solo, but not as much as the option to play as a mook). And if from a functional standpoint you want a small spherical character who spins and pole vaults with a long, non-sword weapon then there's a way cooler character in the Nintendo library who could do exactly that and more.

I have no idea who this is.

Also, I am mookophobic!

 

[TheLastMaverickHunter]

I have no idea who this is.

Also, I am mookophobic!

It’s Bubbles from Clu Clu Land

 

[Lenidem]

It’s Bubbles from Clu Clu Land

Thanks, captain!

 

[TheLastMaverickHunter]

Thanks, captain!

No worries man

 

[TheLastMaverickHunter]

As awesome as a Majora’s Mask inspired Young Link would be, I’d prefer it if they used the Hero of Legend instead for some pre-OoT representation.

 

[Lenidem]

As awesome as a Majora’s Mask inspired Young Link would be, I’d prefer it if they used the Hero of Legend instead for some pre-OoT representation.

Who do you mean by the Hero of Legend? The one from the first Zelda game?

 

[TheLastMaverickHunter]

Who do you mean by the Hero of Legend? The one from the first Zelda game?

The one from A Link to the Past, Awakening and the Oracles duology.

 

[Lenidem]

The one from A Link to the Past, Awakening and the Oracles duology.

Not sure how he would look (please, not the design from LA's remake), but there is plenty of source material for his moveset!