Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[UserKev]

"Echo Daisy" is only fun because you happen to like Peach.

There is absolutely nothing substantial that differentiates the two in Ultimate to the point Daisy may as well not be her own character and should just be an alt of Peach.

Give her at least something different if you're going to make her an Echo, because if you somehow don't even cross the low bar Dark Pit set (and he had even less move property differences from Pit in Ultimate), then you're worthless of an addition. No arguments.

Y'know I expected a much more warmth response from you. I did mention boxing gloves for Daisy. You really don't need to add much more. It's really nothing worth to be angry over.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Y'know I expected a much more warmth response from you. I did mention boxing gloves for Daisy. You really don't need to add much more. It's really nothing worth to be angry over.

This isn't angry. This is being blunt.

I've always felt Ultimate Daisy to be pointless of an addition when she doesn't have a single meaningful difference from Peach.

....except when she did with how her Turnips worked and it was patched out because it was unintentional, making things more egregious.

 

[Louie G.]

She's fine as an echo. Daisy does not need to be differentiated from Peach. I will die on this hill.

Would you have said the same of Falco? This is effectively the same thing to me - like sure, their general abilities are about the same so they may as well fight similarly. It opens the door for them to be added as clones. But then post-Melee, Falco took off in a different direction that took more advantage of his strong character identity. The root of the moveset is the same, but Falco and Fox are dynamically different characters who can in turn fight differently. This is how most clones in the series have progressed, so if / when Daisy returns I would hope she's no exception.

So the answer is pretty clear here. For years, Daisy has been the rambunctious tomboy to Peach's dainty self. While Smash needs to take Peach in a more confrontational direction by default, she's still fighting like Peach. And summoning rainbows and junk. Daisy is fine as a clone in a vacuum, because she shares her "root" with Peach much like the spacies. But just as well, she has a strong defined character to start building more unique traits off of.

Something that comes to mind is Peach's dair. It's one of my favorite moves of hers. It's not an attack that she seems to take very much pleasure in performing, it looks more akin to seeing an unwelcome cockroach and frantically stomping it out.

Recontextualize as Daisy. If Daisy saw a cockroach, she would be less scared and be more "oh boy, let me see how hard I can stomp it". So for her, I'd sooner expect some kind of forceful meteor smash inducing stomp. Of course this may be a bit hard to balance with a float, so then we can work backwards. Floating isn't really something Daisy is established to do, so perhaps her float is either shorter to account for increased strength or done away with entirely to create a dynamically different way to play the character. Point is, there's a lot we can do with it, and I'm inclined to say Daisy deserves a re-evaluation not just for the reasons mentioned by Golden, but also due to her steady rise in significance within the Mario brand recently.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Although I hope that they try to slightly differentiate the two characters more (Peach and Daisy) since she is the only echo who is identical in terms of moveset. Dark Samus doesn’t have unique moves either but the animation changes causes some moves to be slightly better or worse then Samus

My opinion is that most of the echoes are going to return but the only ones at risk are the ones where their original characters are also at a risk.

Dark Samus does have her fire moves changed to electricity, so it's technically different.

Daisy's only changes is her animations make her hurtboxes slightly different, but you can't really tell in casual nor competitive gameplay. She's not 1:1 with Peach, but it's still pretty poorly done. It shouldn't be hard to give a tad more. Dark Samus and Richter are still poor, but they have a clear difference somewhere. I do agree Dark Pit is a good barrier to start with.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

But then post-Melee, Falco took off in a different direction that took more advantage of his strong character identity. The root of the moveset is the same, but Falco and Fox are dynamically different characters who can in turn fight differently. This is how most clones in the series have progressed, so if Daisy returns I would hope she's no exception.

Although the backlash meant that Falco in most fan related movesets is either a combination of both interpretations (Flash 2) or just the Melee version where he plays differently from Fox but mostly the same/similar move animations (PM and most Brawl mods afterwards).

A notable example is Falco’s reflector since Brawl where it’s generally reverted.

 

[RouffWestie]

The only change Daisy should get from Peach is having a chance to pull Beastball, Bullet Bill, and Lip's Stick instead of Mr. Saturn, Bob-Omb, and Beam Sword respectively. That way she'll have an objective difference, but one that relies on a rare random occurrence and doesn't give her any items with a significant advantage to Peach so 99% of the time it won't even be noticeable.

 

[Perkilator]

I’d change Daisy in the following ways:

• B is Grumpy Toad
• Side B is Flower Bomber
• Down B uses the Superball
• Triple jump in lieu of a float
• No longer uses Toad for grabs
• Takes some of Peach’s normal attacks from Melee

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

• Side B is Flower Bomber

This is part of what irritates me about Daisy being the way she is.

Sakurai had an option there. Right there.
Something Peach herself was never going to use again because scrapped Custom Moves.
Something that fits Daisy's flower theming.

Why isn't this already part of her moveset?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There are obviously a good amount of things that you have to question about some of the fighter movesets in Ultimate. First up, Yoshi's up tilt has a seriously awful blind spot, all thanks to the way his up tilt script is set up.

And then when you look at Ike, there's practically no reason to fully charge Eruption, as a full charge is no stronger than a mid charge. Honestly, if there's going to be a damage penalty for fully charging Eruption, it has to be more powerful than the mid charge.

 

[A_Kae]

There are obviously a good amount of things that you have to question about some of the fighter movesets in Ultimate. First up, Yoshi's up tilt has a seriously awful blind spot, all thanks to the way his up tilt script is set up.

And then when you look at Ike, there's practically no reason to fully charge Eruption, as a full charge is no stronger than a mid charge. Honestly, if there's going to be a damage penalty for fully charging Eruption, it has to be more powerful than the mid charge.

What's worse is that some of this sort of stuff hasn't been fixed since S4, Brawl, even Melee! (probably 64 too but idk enough about that game to say)

It's sort of an inevitability with how heavily smash reuses old content - not everything can be updated/fixed due to just how much stuff there is and strange blindspots in moveset design and specifics get carried forwards across literal decades.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

If Daisy is essentially equivalent to an alt, then what negative change does her having a seperate slot from Peach do other than... make the character select screen a little strange, maybe? All I see is just Daisy and Peach getting extra alts, which I'd argue is a positive, even if a symptom of something bigger (Smash's weird way of handling alts post-8 player).

In general I think fighting game fans are a bit weird about character select screen layouts and shapes....

 

[Perkilator]

I kinda feel like some people take the idea of Smash being a “celebration of video game history” a little too seriously, which IMO is a pretty unhealthy mindset.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What's worse is that some of this sort of stuff hasn't been fixed since S4, Brawl, even Melee! (probably 64 too but idk enough about that game to say)

It's sort of an inevitability with how heavily smash reuses old content - not everything can be updated/fixed due to just how much stuff there is and strange blindspots in moveset design and specifics get carried forwards across literal decades.

Another notable attack that's guilty of this is Ganondorf's forward smash, which has a literal blindspot that could've easily been fixed by adding extended hitboxes.

Before

After

 

[fogbadge]

I kinda feel like some people take the idea of Smash being a “celebration of video game history” a little too seriously, which IMO is a pretty unhealthy mindset.

yes

 

[RodNutTakin]

it's not even about celebrations or anything to me anymore.
i just want a character i care about from a series i care about to be able to show up in something that people will actually pay attention to. after a decade plus of watching other things i get an attachment to die without even getting the opportunity for some die hard cult classic movement to keep things alive.
the idea of having her "position" in the "line" for new characters getting pushed back so much by a potentially devastating roster reduction makes me more than sick. it actually makes me wonder if my time in this community has been a gigantic waste and if i should reconsider everything.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

it's not even about celebrations or anything to me anymore.
i just want a character i care about from a series i care about to be able to show up in something that people will actually pay attention to. after a decade plus of watching other things i get an attachment to die without even getting the opportunity for some die hard cult classic movement to keep things alive.
the idea of having her "position" in the "line" for new characters getting pushed back so much by a potentially devastating roster reduction makes me more than sick. it actually makes me wonder if my time in this community has been a gigantic waste and if i should reconsider everything.

I dunno what character you're talking about (seems to be about Arle vs. Tetromino from what I can gather??), but I'd dead-horse-beating time say that 1. dormant franchises and characters are a copyright issue, not franchise-specific issue; and 2. being in Smash is not a substitute for nor harbringer of a new game.

Also, Puyo is more famous in Japan than Sonic. No way that series is remotely close to the chopping block, at least on a Japanese scale. Worst case scenario is no or Robotnik-ified localizations, and that's something gaming fans are famous for taking into their own hands.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Another notable attack that's guilty of this is Ganondorf's forward smash, which has a literal blindspot that could've easily been fixed by adding extended hitboxes.

Before

After
View attachment 399012

Is Ike's like this too?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Is Ike's like this too?

Not as much, but the hitboxes do change during the animation. Of course, Ike's forward smash has its own notable flaws in that for an attack that has a good amount of start-up lag (not hitting until frame 31), it's less powerful than Bowser's forward smash, which hits on frame 22. Heck, even Ganondorf's forward smash hits sooner, AND KOs sooner than Ike's forward smash.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Another notable attack that's guilty of this is Ganondorf's forward smash, which has a literal blindspot that could've easily been fixed by adding extended hitboxes.

Before

After
View attachment 399012

I kinda see where you're coming from, but on the other hand, does this move REALLY need to be bigger?

 

[Thegameandwatch]

What's worse is that some of this sort of stuff hasn't been fixed since S4, Brawl, even Melee! (probably 64 too but idk enough about that game to say)

It's sort of an inevitability with how heavily smash reuses old content - not everything can be updated/fixed due to just how much stuff there is and strange blindspots in moveset design and specifics get carried forwards across literal decades.

I think DK’s regular up throw has had the same base damage value (9%) since Melee because they probably forgot about it compared to Cargo Up Throw.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I kinda see where you're coming from, but on the other hand, does this move REALLY need to be bigger?

One only has to pay attention to the animation length at normal speed to know the highly notable flaw that Ganondorf's forward smash has. It's even more noticeable when Ganondorf is giant-sized, and tries to hit a small opponent.

And then you look at Meta Knight's up aerial, which uses a set of extended hitboxes, all because of how the attack's animation is set up at normal speed.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Back on Tetromino, I don't get the "it's not a character" argument against Tetromino because like... that's the entire point. I think most people who want Tetromino are at least partially motivated by the desire to play as a weird faceless object with no personality - I'd absolutely say that's my reasoning at least.

Also, on Arle vs. Tetromino: there's no reason these characters can't coexist, and unless they decided to split up 5 slots for each Tetrominos or make a true stance fighter, Tetromino would likely be the quickest and easiest non-clone imaginable. The animations would be simpler than Steve, they wouldn't summon any props except for clones of their pieces and maybe existing 2D game assets, and the moveset would likely be among the most simple since the HAL era. The biggest difficulty would be animation clarity, which - not a game dev, so don't take my word on this - seems like more of a creative issue and not a technical/logistical one. Arle has actual abilities, and her own RPGs, there's not much reason for her to have a block-stacking moveset, and even if there was, her moveset would have no overlap with Tetromino on virtue of 1. not being a block herself, and 2. the differences in shapes between the two games' block structures.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I never liked it when people would scoff at when asked how any character would work and say something like "Sakurai made a Piranha Plant work, he can totally come up with something for Character X". Like, yeah, sure, whatever, but I'm asking because I want to be convinced. A pitch can genuinely make someone turn around on an idea, especially if there's also a gameplan in mind to get an idea of a playstyle. I feel I'm pretty openminded to most character suggestions so when someone just wouldn't bother because they're not the guy who gets paid to think about this I always felt a bit of a letdown, especially as it can be nice seeing people ramble about the things they like

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I think I often have a hard time with "how would they fight?" questions because my mind tends to be on a different wavelength for movesets. Normals come first to me, while specials come last after everything else, even getup attacks; throws; and the sort. Looking at Tetromino (assuming the post above is about it), I really have no clue what the specials would be (outside of the obvious hard drop), but the normals and how the "character" would move about the stage come very naturally. Instant shape changes if composited, or splitting apart (as if each of the 4 pieces is a seperable limb) if 5 slots, lots of spinning and tilting either way, mild squash and stretch but no emotion, probably heavyweight - Crusade's take on Tetromino is a good reference point both for how Tetromino could work and why Tetromino is unique, with it being this strange, heavy, and stiff shapeshifter - even if I think it may go too far into anthropomorphising it (which even then it doesn't do much)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Looking at Tetromino (assuming the post above is about it)

It wasn't specifically about it, but you going "Oh it's a creativity issue rather than a logistics one. I'm not gonna come up with it though" did remind me of this mentality which annoyed me whenever I saw it back in the day

 

[BritishGuy54]

This might be controversial, but I think most clones really only can justify staying in Smash as clones.

If they were to be developed as fully unique fighters, many of them would never make it in.

‘De-cloning’ is nice for people to throw around as a term, but for characters like or are more likely to get cut than decloned.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

This might be controversial, but I think most clones really only can justify staying in Smash as clones.

If they were to be developed as fully unique fighters, many of them would never make it in.

‘De-cloning’ is nice for people to throw around as a term, but for characters like or are more likely to get cut than decloned.

To be fair, the only character to get truly decloned in Smash history was Jigglypuff, a character that was mostly added because of a skeletal similiarity to Kirby.

I do think clones should stay clones though, and just get slowly iterated on over time when appropriate (no Brawl Falco shine, thank you very much) - with maybe purely cosmetic clones as an outlier (unique Roy Koopa moveset would go hard), and declones should only come with moveset variants.

 

[Louie G.]

I’m sure a Tetronimo could work if they really wanted, but seeing my MW guest character neglected in favor of a faceless block on little basis other than muh iconic and “they could make a fighter out of anything!” never fails to make my eyes roll. Just because they can doesn’t mean they should. So I empathize with the initial point.

In this character based fighting action game, Puyo Puyo is a series driven by its colorful characters other than falling blocks. The puzzles simulate a battle in-universe and the gameplay is half-jokingly likened to the competitive nature of fighting games. It’s a natural fit. Where a Tetronimo can shape shift, split off into blocks, whatever… Arle feels more suited to play like a “puzzle game character” with vertical based projectiles and a chain combo system.

Visibility for Puyo has grown in the community ever since Ultimate DLC but it still feels unfairly neglected to me. The fact that it isn’t consistently brought up as one of the most important missing third party IP is deeply rooted western bias… rich of me to say as a western fan, but if you do any research into it you’ll be surprised just how big Puyo is in Japan. Wario was literally right in saying it has more cred than Sonic overseas.

 

[UserKev]

This might be controversial, but I think most clones really only can justify staying in Smash as clones.

If they were to be developed as fully unique fighters, many of them would never make it in.

‘De-cloning’ is nice for people to throw around as a term, but for characters like or are more likely to get cut than decloned.

I feel the same. I think clones (Echoes) are unique in their own right from other unique characters. We shouldn't justify prioritizing uniqueness just because. It's overbearing.

 

[BritishGuy54]

I think it’s a bit weird for to be considered the ‘starter’ character.

Most people are likely going to start with .

 

[Louie G.]

‘De-cloning’ is nice for people to throw around as a term, but for characters like or are more likely to get cut than decloned.

Depends on your definition. Daisy is far more likely to be iterated on / “Luigified” than to be cut altogether. Between Ultimate and the present she’s become a prominent, essential cast member as evidenced by Nintendo’s own marketing and use of the character.

But I would agree with you if the case is “gets an entirely new moveset”. Brawl Falco is the ceiling I’m working with and even though I’d expect the tweaks to be less significant than that, I don’t think it would be so ridiculous. There’s plenty of precedent for clones - Luigi, Falco, Roy - coming back under more normal conditions (ie not EIH) and simply staying the way they are. And I personally don’t think the arbitrary echo label should restrict that natural growth if they feel so inclined.

But most of this is about Daisy, who I’m certain will be back. Dark Samus… not sure. I’d like them to stay though.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I’m sure a Tetronimo could work if they really wanted, but seeing my MW guest character neglected in favor of a faceless block on little basis other than muh iconic and “they could make a fighter out of anything!” never fails to make my eyes roll. Just because they can doesn’t mean they should. So I empathize with the initial point.

Well, "faceless block" is the point of Tetromino support. If you really want to refute Tetromino, you'd have to explain why faceless blocks are bad, not just take it as a given that "Smash is a character game, therefore faceless blocks are bad". I can't speak for all Tetromino supporters, but I think part of the appeal to Tetromino is that it wouldn't exactly play like Tetris, it'd be a conventional bruiser with a weird shape and animation style. I know I'm an outlier in the wider Smash fandom in that regard though. I also don't really see Smash as a "character game" really (though that is clearly what it's going for unfortunately)

Again, I don't think Tetromino is competiting with Arle. Both can coexist and neither would have similar movesets whatsoever. One of my character-driven MWs is PaRappa the Rapper, and support for or the inclusion of any other 3P rhythm game - be it Guitar Hero, DDR, Just Dance, Pop'n Music, so on - would mean nothing for PaRappa, it would only be about PaRappa if I went out of my way to make it about PaRappa - nobody is asking for Tetromino to spite Arle fans, just as nobody is asking for Arle to spite Tetromino fans. I don't think PaRappa is somehow "higher" than "neon panda silhouette" just for having an established personality and story, even in the stray context of Smash, he's just my preference. In practice, a Smash character is essentially a character design in a vacuum, there's no tangible heirarchy between "developed character" and "mascot/logo" within the text of the game itself - even PaRappa's gameplay mechanics are distinct with the focus on freestyling. (though I'd rather game mechanics not be implemented into a PaRappa moveset... and Smash generally doesn't like to reward combos, so uhhh...)

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I think it’s a bit weird for to be considered the ‘starter’ character.

Most people are likely going to start with .

What do you expect. Sakurai is the creator of Kirby who in turn created Super Smash Bros...

 

[Louie G.]

Well, "faceless block" is the point of Tetromino support. If you really want to refute Tetromino, you'd have to explain why faceless blocks are bad, not just take it as a given that "Smash is a character game, therefore faceless blocks are bad". I can't speak for all Tetromino supporters, but I think part of the appeal to Tetromino is that it wouldn't exactly play like Tetris, it'd be a conventional bruiser with a weird shape and animation style. I know I'm an outlier in the wider Smash fandom in that regard though. I also don't really see Smash as a "character game" really (though that is clearly what it's going for unfortunately)

I recognize you have your own virtues about Smash and I’m not really going to try to sway you otherwise. Just prefacing that to say that I respect your unique angle on it but I’ve got my own perspective.

I do think Smash is a character oriented game in that characterization helps inform a moveset, a visual style, the way a character moves and interacts. In theory I don’t actually have a problem with your “function” oriented mindset, because that is very important to me too. It’s why I brought up Arle’s gameplay hooks. But in practice I think there’s a balance between the two somewhere - lots of effort goes into representing personality and life within Smash characters so for me playing as a likable character is part of the fun.

No more or less than ANY fighting game really, I consider the genre to be fundamentally character oriented and attach myself strongly to the casts of Street Fighter, Darkstalkers, what have you. The difference is those characters are often built around archetypes rather than the other way around, but their strong personalities are largely what endear people to play them. That’s an essence Puyo shares with the genre, which is why it feels like a good fit IMO.

With that in mind sometimes the lack of is what makes a character pop. Game & Watch and Steve have a lot of personality by virtue of being weird blank slates. Tetronimo has a similar appeal as a strange sentient block with no emotion. I can understand the fun there.

In that sense, I wouldn’t totally dislike the idea on its own if I didn’t see its value chalked up to “no, seriously, it’s Tetris! It’s so iconic!” or that just being the bandaid answer to what a puzzle game character in Smash means. I agree that the two have vastly different appeals and execution. Just for the purpose that many people pose the hypothetical, not passionate supporters of the character mind you, the Tetronimo is more of a “symbol” than it is a “function” which I’m sure is an angle you don’t like either.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I think the worst thing a Smash fan demand pick can be - putting aside weird bad-taste stuff like DDLC and such - is driven by a (for lack of a more good-faith term) ulterior motive. I've said before that with retrospection I think my dislike for Banjo was never really about "Banjo being tied to Nintendo" as much as the culty "Banjo fans wanting to prove he 'belongs' at Nintendo" element, but I think most Smash fan demand picks have weird motives behind them - "If K. Rool gets in Smash, he'll be in Donkey Kong games again"; "If Porky gets in Smash, Mother 3 will be localized"; "If Crash gets in Smash, he'll be respected online the same way as Mario and Sonic"; and it strikes me as insincere, propping Smash up higher than other games, and bound to backfire - as does the general validation factor of Smash reveals.

 

[BritishGuy54]

I think the worst thing a Smash fan demand pick can be - putting aside weird bad-taste stuff like DDLC and such - is driven by a (for lack of a more good-faith term) ulterior motive. I've said before that with retrospection I think my dislike for Banjo was never really about "Banjo being tied to Nintendo" as much as the culty "Banjo fans wanting to prove he 'belongs' at Nintendo" element, but I think most Smash fan demand picks have weird motives behind them - "If K. Rool gets in Smash, he'll be in Donkey Kong games again"; "If Porky gets in Smash, Mother 3 will be localized"; "If Crash gets in Smash, he'll be respected online the same way as Mario and Sonic"; and it strikes me as insincere, propping Smash up higher than other games, and bound to backfire - as does the general validation factor of Smash reveals.

We are likely starting to see those ulterior motives just… not pay off.

How will fan demand react to that?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

We are likely starting to see those ulterior motives just… not pay off.

How will fan demand react to that?

I mean. They're not gonna suddenly regret wanting their character just because nothing's ever gonna happen, ask any Banjo fan if they regret voting for Banjo on the ballot when a decade later, every other scrimblo under the sun is getting rereleases to modern systems and sequels while Banjo's still in the same position. People liking the idea of their favourites getting more recognition is also just really weird to try and look down on cause like, don't we all have our favourite stuff that's less wellknown and want people to check it out and go "Oh wow you were right this IS fun"? Smash being popular means a lot of eyes are on it and that people who aren't as incurious as a wet brick are willing to check things out they know from Smash

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I mean. They're not gonna suddenly regret wanting their character just because nothing's ever gonna happen, ask any Banjo fan if they regret voting for Banjo on the ballot when a decade later, every other scrimblo under the sun is getting rereleases to modern systems and sequels while Banjo's still in the same position. People liking the idea of their favourites getting more recognition is also just really weird to try and look down on cause like, don't we all have our favourite stuff that's less wellknown and want people to check it out and go "Oh wow you were right this IS fun"? Smash being popular means a lot of eyes are on it and that people who aren't as incurious as a wet brick are willing to check things out they know from Smash

I can't speak for British, but my post was specifically about motives done either A. to directly effect the original series' developers/copyright holders ('maybe this will convince them to make Banjo-Threeie!' 'maybe this will convince them to bring back K. Rool in DKCR3!' 'maybe this will convince them to revive Crash 4!'); and B. to "prove a point" in online discourse ('See, Banjo is a Nintendo character!' 'See, King K. Rool is THE villain of Donkey Kong, not Lord Fredrik!', 'See, Crash IS a gaming all-star!'). Not just wanting others to try out your game.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I can't speak for British, but my post was specifically about motives done either A. to directly effect the original series' developers/copyright holders ('maybe this will convince them to make Banjo-Threeie!' 'maybe this will convince them to bring back K. Rool in DKCR3!' 'maybe this will convince them to revive Crash 4!'); and B. to "prove a point" in online discourse ('See, Banjo is a Nintendo character!' 'See, King K. Rool is THE villain of Donkey Kong, not Lord Fredrik!', 'See, Crash IS a gaming all-star!'). Not just wanting others to try out your game.

I think this is just a misguided point at best and kinda dishonest at worst. Again, are the people who wanted Banjo and K.Rool gonna regret asking for the characters if/when this does not happen? Of course not. These people already wanted their characters in Smash and see the potential of new stuff as a bonus, not the driving factor. Nintendo and co not capitalizing on Smash as much as they could isn't something Smash fans are inheritently capable of regretting, arguing otherwise is making up a strawman in your head and then looking down on these made up people. As for people trying to prove a point they made up, sure, it's pretty weird and people saying that need to go outside but at the same time assuming all your examples are indeed real, they don't want the character to prove they're right, they want the character because they like them first and foremost, they want to be proven to be right because someone online disagreed with them over this and they can't get over it. There's a difference

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I always figured that aftereffects of Smash appearances were always just wishful thinking by those whose primary interest was just getting them into SSB period. Are there fans that were hoping a Banjo-Kazooie or K Rool spot in Ultimate would lead to greater things for both? Absolutely, but many of them just wanted the chance to play as and against them in a fighting game they really liked. No different than Mega Man fans that were thrilled to see he was in 4 even if some had some hopes pinned on the idea that his popularity would prove to Capcom the series was still viable.

The tricky thing with hype cycles is that people's interest is often so nuanced it's hard to really just assign one particular emotional motivation for it. A Sonic fan might have embraced Mania because some really loved the aesthetics, others preferred the Classic style physics, and the more cynical types simply wanted a non Adventure/Modern game to succeed because of their issues with the latter. With Smash its very much the same thing; the line between a fighter being emotionally significant to fan because of their fandom and unrealistic wishcasting being projected onto their inclusion can be very blurry indeed.