*UPDATING* Dedede Patch 1.1.6 WHAAT Impact and Discussion

[Soul Train]

WE HAVE A NEW LIVE PATCH, KIDS.

Letting this fly directly in the face of everyone who said "no more patches." Ending development on Smash means no more DLC, not the removal of further patches.

@Girthquake and I are about to jump into the lab - hopefully to find some buffs! Don't forget, even nerfs to Bayo/Corrin are indirect buffs to D3, and worth discussing. To the labbb

EDIT: no buffs found. Extensively tested damage and kill %s on all moves, all the same. Dash attack MIGHT be faster, but it's probably placebo.

 

[CaptainVul]

Ah well I guess the only positive is that there are most likely more patches coming since this one came at random

 

[Treemendous]

At least with a new patch we have hope for perhaps more improvements. This means a concerted effort on our part to raise awareness of Dedede's downfalls could result in a patch in our favor... one can hope.

 

[Ghidorah14]

-sigh-

Why am I not surprised.

I guess...there's always next patch...maybe. -_-

 

[DEX_]

Is it just placebo or the backing hitbox of the uptilt is better?

Also some angles look just a bit different, but still it might be placebo...

 

[Furret]

@Girthquake and I are about to jump into the lab - hopefully to find some buffs! Don't forget, even nerfs to Bayo/Corrin are indirect buffs to D3, and worth discussing. To the labbb

I don't want to be the guy to kill it for ya, but these are the characters that received changes

List of changed ACMD scripts

data\fighter\bayonetta\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\bayonetta\script\animcmd\weapon\wickedweavearm\game.bin
data\fighter\cloud\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\duckhunt\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\ganon\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\gekkouga\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\kamui\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\kamui\script\animcmd\weapon\ryusensya\game.bin
data\fighter\kirby\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\link\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\lizardon\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\lizardon\script\animcmd\weapon\explosion\game.bin
data\fighter\metaknight\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\mewtwo\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\pacman\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\palutena\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\peach\script\animcmd\body\game.bin
data\fighter\reflet\script\animcmd\body\game.bin

not on the list

 

[DEX_]

ZSS has been modified a lot and she's not on that list, so there's still hope

 

[abx]

There are still other characters seemingly unadressed, such as Jigglypuff, Dr. Mario or WFT. All of them are currently somewhat hardpressed. Someone noticed somewhere in these forums that the latest patches follow a pattern: A handful of characters receives a major tweak, rest goes almost completely unadressed. Next handful comes with next patch. Thre's still hope.
#makedededegreatagain

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Even though we didn't get any relevant buffs, or probably none at all, this patch makes me so happy. Every time I check back on the list of changes, I find more stuff that was totally needed, warranted, and logical, whether it be nerfs or buffs! I honestly think that this patch will directly affect my tournament results!

 

[SalsaSavant]

Now that we know nothing has changed...I guess we need to ask how this patch effects our matchups.

Any of our major threats nerfed in way that changes the matchup? Any new threats to worry about?

looks...less annoying. Still probably a major pain, but less tilted in his favor.
And I don't know much about but it looks like it's an overall nerf? Always good for us.

 

[Furret]

Any of our major threats nerfed?

gee

none

come

to

mind

anyways in how it effects the match up, it's easier to space around with the fair changes. KBG means 50/50s would have less opportunity to kill

, so he might live much longer in the match up with proper DI. Basically just taking less damage from one of her approach tools was nerfed in range as well. Uair doing less damage is nice it's one of the few things

didn't have an answer too and it will kill later as a result with less movement overall makes spacing easier. basically just quality of life for

, dies a little later, uair trap isn't as punishing

 

[SalsaSavant]

gee

none

come

to

mind

Eh, I meant in a way that mattered. Poor wording on my part. I don't play a lot of those characters, so I wasn't sure if they effected us that much.

But nice mini-analysis. Doubt any of them have turned into GOOD matchups, but at least I don't have to wet my pants every time I see a Zamus now. Only MOST times I see one.

 

[Furret]

Eh, I meant in a way that mattered. Poor wording on my part. I don't play a lot of those characters, so I wasn't sure if they effected us that much.

But nice mini-analysis. Doubt any of them have turned into GOOD matchups, but at least I don't have to wet my pants every time I see a Zamus now. Only MOST times I see one.

no they're pretty much still the same, just die later. and I'd still rather play against a then a even if the cloud match is probably better
his uair is actually the dumbest thing against dedede

 

[williamsga555]

Nerfs against the top tiers are always welcome for us. Don't be too discouraged about our lack of direct buffs.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Matchups to look out for: (all my opinion and still only speculation)
I'm actually kinda scared of now. That dash attack buff allows him to approach much better, and his new jab is specifically bad for us since he now outspeeds us up close.
, if she wasn't a disadvantage before she probably is now.
has been getting worse and worse for us each patch
has also been slowly creeping up on us with each matchup, and may soon gain the advantage at this rate
I swear you guys! He was already a bad matchup for us before! I guarantee you he is even worse now!
was bad, is now worse.

Matchups that just got better:
Literally so much better. We were one of the easiest characters to carry into the sky before.
also much much better. Shiek's ability to kill us has been nerfed, so now we can hang onto stocks for way too long and use lots of rage to get kills
thank god limit takes longer to charge, and he can't kill us so early. Basically this MU just became more fair in general. Still lose the MU though
can no longer chase us down so aggressively, and we can survive a bit longer too, and thank god for counter nerfs! Still lose though.
also just better in general. Witch time no longer quite as terrifying, and we can punish it now if it misses! Still very bad MU for us
also much better. But we still lose by a lot. Throws are no longer quite as terrifying, but she still has her paralyzer, and we still get bodied by it.

 

[Treemendous]

No but of course Bowser and Charizard got airspeed buffs. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see Charizard get buffs, but
it's not like those two were nerfed twice in previous patches. Bowser's "nerf" from last patch was making his up throw less hoo-haa-ey. Dedede has seen little to no love in patch history. Nerfing his airspeed to then immediately buff other heavies' airspeed is like a kick in the balls followed by a slap in the face. what could possibly be Sakurai's motivation for this? are there Japanese Dedede's taking the meta over there by storm?

 

[Furret]

, if she wasn't a disadvantage before she probably is now.

LOL
no
I know I'm supposed to have intelligent banter, but I'm leaving at this

what could possibly be Sakurai's motivation for this?

there isn't, he doesn't balance the game

 

[williamsga555]

Don't be too hasty to write off Zelda against us. It's a pretty close matchup, imo, especially now that she has an early, reliable confirm in d-throw to up-throw.

 

[abx]

I am skeptical about significant changes to MUs. Current top tiers will probably body Dedede, it will be slightly less harsh though.The change to Sheik seems to be hardcore, but she still has the means screw him.

 

[Furret]

Don't be too hasty to write off Zelda against us. It's a pretty close matchup, imo, especially now that she has an early, reliable confirm in d-throw to up-throw.

she always did against dedede, SHE JUST NEVER GOT TO GRAB HIM. outside of low % combos, she still can't do that

When done right she can't even Shield grab nair, her standing grab is frame 10. nair is -7 on shield, she can't even punish properly spaced ftilt with grab either and can't out range him in general. Is the match up even now? maybe. Was it even before **** no

also your typo makes me giggle

 

[HeavyLobster]

There are still other characters seemingly unadressed, such as Jigglypuff, Dr. Mario or WFT. All of them are currently somewhat hardpressed. Someone noticed somewhere in these forums that the latest patches follow a pattern: A handful of characters receives a major tweak, rest goes almost completely unadressed. Next handful comes with next patch. Thre's still hope.
#makedededegreatagain

Doc and Wii Fit aren't great, but they're not bottom of the barrel either. They didn't need help to the same extent Dorf, Zard, Samus, and Zelda did. Corrin didn't need to be nerfed. Overall though this patch was really good for mid and low tiers, as the low tiers mentioned above got very meaningful buffs, and the worst of the high tiers got toned down so as to be more manageable for mid tiers. Mostly this patch was really good, but D3 and Puff are getting left behind for no good reason.

 

[williamsga555]

she always did against dedede, SHE JUST NEVER GOT TO GRAB HIM. outside of low % combos, she still can't do that

When done right she can't even Shield grab nair, her standing grab is frame 10. nair is -7 on shield, she can't even punish properly spaced ftilt with grab either and can't out range him in general. Is the match up even now? maybe. Was it even before **** no

also your typo makes me giggle

Whoops, that's what I get for typing on mobile.

Fair points. We'll see how it plays out now. It's a bit annoying since we can't afford to fish for grabs too hard against her, as her reward at close range is just so strong, but our spacing game is still effective.

 

[Soul Train]

I don't want to be the guy to kill it for ya, but these are the characters that received changes

Lol discovered that almost right away last night. Ah well. Thanks for the heads up

Before debating anything, I want to highlight what others have mentioned: this really is a fantastic patch, for two main reasons. It:

1. Shows that the patch team listens, cares, and intelligently pursues competitive balance in the game. All of the changes made are very specific, and address buggy issues (Corrin's grab infinite) or imbalanced competitive stuffs (Corrin Counter, Witch Time, Peach's Uair infinite). Those being taken care of are huge, guys - this game is really just getting better every month. High tiers got nerfed in smart ways, and a ton of lower tiers got buffed in some really needed ways. Seriously, I just want to write a thank you letter.
2. Shut down hard all negativity on future patches after 1.1.4. As I said before, "no more development after Bayo" did NOT mean no more patches, and now we have both proof and hope. And as the patch team has demonstrated many times before, patches are less comprehensive and more focused - so D3 very well could get something in the future. Better frame data on Inhale and hitbox fixes on Jab and Dtilt alone would be huuuge.

With and : excepting a crazy buff on their end, they will always, always be in our favor. Sure, Dorf isn't as easy to beat now, but all of our advantages still apply. Those are two of the few matchups where D3 can actually play Smash, where his bad frame data isn't out of the ordinary, where his speed is less of an issue, and he's mostly punished for only making a bad decision. There he can play what he's built for: a punish-based, spacing edgeguard character.

Otherwise, we'll have to wait and see how the rest of the matchups unfold. The patch did make things more bearable for D3 overall, but it left his core issues unaddressed. With bad run/air speed, broken close-range hitboxes (Dtilt, Jab), and a horribly slow dash attack + laggy Fair, D3 just isn't built for offense. So then, he's built to be a reactionary, punish-oriented spacing character, fine. Except due to his size, frame data, and the ease of Gordo reflecting, he's weak to being camped out. Until these issues are addressed, I'll have a hard time seeing him in matchups better than 50:50 with 90% of the cast.

 

[Axel311]

Sheik and MK are a lot better now but we still lose hard. Nothing else much has changed. As others pointed out Mewtwo continues to get worse for Dedede. Cloud and Bayo just got slaps on the wrist in singles TBH, they both still body Dedede, those matchups haven't changed much. Cloud has no problem limit camping on Dedede due to Dedede's bad mobility so an extra half second to charge is especially irrelevant against us. He also will kill us marginally later from general knockback/damage decreases throughout his moveset but it's not that significant.

 

[Furret]

Whoops, that's what I get for typing on mobile.

Fair points. We'll see how it plays out now. It's a bit annoying since we can't afford to fish for grabs too hard against her, as her reward at close range is just so strong, but our spacing game is still effective.

will still get grabs, frame 7 standing grab is great and zelda's list of moves that are safe on shield isn't bad, but she has a rather extensive list of moves that are - on shield by a decent amount. Her air game in general is - on shield, Ftilt is still a joke on shield, NSpecial for zelda is always a punish on wiff or shield.

 

[DNL]

are you sure that the new patch didnt give ddd any changes?
I think, that gordo is patched. After my opponent hits gordo, his flight path is not the same in my oppinion. Gordo doesnt hit me.

(sry for my bad english skills)

 

[CaptainVul]

It's starting to seem like one of the best parts of this patch is that a lot of ZSS mains are dropping her lol

So that's good news

 

[randomguy1235]

Although I'm very pleased with the top tiers finally being addressed (to varying degrees), it's becoming increasingly difficult to play D3 (in non-casual settings) in lieu of the myriad of low tier buffs the past few patches. At least, Ganondorf is more potent in the meta after receiving much-warranted buffs in 1.14 and 1.15.

 

[Doctor_Link]

Inb4 dedededicated patch that removes all problems ever from dedede.


I know I'm greedy.

 

[Revolution6 aka alterego]

Inb4 dedededicated patch that removes all problems ever from dedede.


I know I'm greedy.

if this happens i'd pick up the game again

 

[SalsaSavant]

So there's some scheduled maintenance this Tuesday for Smash and only Smash...they need to go down for maintenance when there's a patch and rarely go down otherwise, right?

Let the cycle of hype and then disappointment commence!

(But seriously, it'd be nice if he got something, but if he doesn't...well, there's still more of his game left to explore.)

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

What? A patch? GIVE US MORE NERFS! I LOVE THEM NERFS! (Reverse psychology?)

 

[Axel311]

So there's some scheduled maintenance this Tuesday for Smash and only Smash...they need to go down for maintenance when there's a patch and rarely go down otherwise, right?

Let the cycle of hype and then disappointment commence!

(But seriously, it'd be nice if he got something, but if he doesn't...well, there's still more of his game left to explore.)

How do you know this is smash specific maintenance and not other games? That link doesn't specify, and I tried searching elsewhere for info but came up with nothing.

 

[SalsaSavant]

How do you know this is smash specific maintenance and not other games? That link doesn't specify, and I tried searching elsewhere for info but came up with nothing.

They've...changed it?

I know it said Smash specifically before, people in other forums were talking about it.
Or maybe I'm going crazy, IDK.

 

[Ghidorah14]

It says its for wii U and 3ds.

Cant imagine many other games on both platforms that would require online maintenance.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

It'd be nice to have actually gotten some traction from big names in the scene like other characters, but no one seems to think he is that bad.

Lol don't get your hopes up fellas. Let's just keep playing the game

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

Well boys, here's to another patch and another round of disappointment.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Well boys, here's to another patch and another round of disappointment.

Come on. Patch 1.1.5 was pretty reasonable. It nerfed Shiek, Bayonetta and Corrin. And Dedede wasn't nerfed, he was left alone. As long as Sakurai isn't in charge of the patch this time.

 

[CaptainVul]

Honestly I don't expect anything lol. This patch needs to hurry up and come out so I don't get my hopes up or anything

At this point I don't expect buffs, I just want Dededes bad MUs to be nerfed slightly.

NERF MARIO DAMMIT

 

[CaptainVul]

Come on. Patch 1.1.5 was pretty reasonable. It nerfed Shiek, Bayonetta and Corrin. And Dedede wasn't nerfed, he was left alone. As long as Sakurai isn't in charge of the patch this time.

I'm pretty sure he's referring to the fact that Dedede has never received a buff in the entire existence of Smash 4 only nerfs