Urgh, I R a Lucario main now...

[NESSBOUNDER]

Sakurai ruined my two favorite characters beyond salvation (Ness and Lucas) thanks to the horrible chain grab that most characters can perform on them, making them both next to useless in competitive play.

So I guess that means I'll be maining Lucario now...

-_- As much as Lucario fits my playing style, I don't think he'll ever replace those two, who fitted my playing style like a glove. All that is wasted by just a single stupid bit of bad animation time and poor design.

So...I guess I'll be changing the animation in my signature sometime soon too.

 

[Pentaoku]

Um... sorry to hear that.

WELCOME TO LUCARIO!

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Bad for you, good for us. It'll be nice to have you contributing to Lucario's metagame.

For a new sig, you could have Lucario charging an aura sphere, or doing that wierd kung-fu/twisty arm thing he does when charging a forward/down smash.

 

[Greenpoe]

My friend just realized this. He's trying to play Ness in a different way, avoiding being grabbed completely. He does it amazingly well, actually! Maybe that could help you out.

 

[Nodrak]

My friend liked Ness in 64 and melee, still likes him now but gets extremely frustrated seeing lucas with longer, easier to hit attacks (and of course his up smash). But anyway! Welcome fully to the blue side of the force. We have cookies ... and blue fire.

 

[Milln]

Lucario = Aura = Blue Flames = Awesome

All you need to know. Sup Nessbounder. Welcome back. =3

 

[Tallen]

Sakurai ruined my two favorite characters beyond salvation (Ness and Lucas) thanks to the horrible chain grab that most characters can perform on them, making them both next to useless in competitive play.

So I guess that means I'll be maining Lucario now...

-_- As much as Lucario fits my playing style, I don't think he'll ever replace those two, who fitted my playing style like a glove. All that is wasted by just a single stupid bit of bad animation time and poor design.

So...I guess I'll be changing the animation in my signature sometime soon too.

*reads carefully*
...
*slaps Nessbounder full in the face*
Oh really? You mean because of ONE tiny ickle detail you are COMPLETELY letting go of one of your favorite characters? (or two favorite characters, whatever) You are telling me that because Sakurai just BARELY changed your character to balance the game one tiny little bit you are just going to give up completely??
Come on, smash bros. started out as a game in which you could pick your favorite nintendo character and see with your friends who would win in a match. It's about picking your favorite animal/pokemon/mercenary/raving lunatic and showing your worth with him, not about forgetting a character because he is slightly flawed. In melee I knew a friend who used mewtwo because he really liked pokemon and really enjoyed the first movie. He would practice daily, try hard as hell, lose quite a few times but would always try to go around Mewtwo's flaws. And you know what? he'd still beat the crap outta me every now and then.
and Mewtwo was FREAKING BOTTOM HELL TIER. Did it stop my friend? You bet it didn't.
I know many Lucas and Ness users around here in my country. When I learned to chain grab them, they wouldn't go "boo hoo now I gotta change character because they suck". When Sakurai implemented the awful lag before Falcon Punch my buddy didn't stop using him due to that fact. They all ADAPTED. learned to change their strategy.
But hey, these are my friends. Maybe you're different. Maybe you don't know how to work it out, how to change your strategy. But if you were such a real Lucas user you would've found a way out of this. You would show everyone how Lucas and Ness can still be great even with a little problem such as that.
Lucario has a few awful flaws to me. The slow smash attacks and the terrible inability to KO when he is at slow % just really annoy me. But I still use him because I like him. I like the way he fights like a kung-fu expert, at how he grows stronger every moment that passes in the game, at how I can go around his slow smash with aura spheres and double-teans. If me or Milln or any other Lucario user gave up in him because he was suddenly ranked low tier, how would you look at us later?
Do what you want, but I frankly think it's stupidity to give up on your favorite character due to a slight change in the rules. Don't run from the problem: find a solution to it.

 

[Shack]

i gotta agree, if ness really is ur fav, u would try to make him better. Otherwise he's prolly not ur fav. But if not then GL with lucario lol. He has his flaws as well

 

[Morrigan]

Aww this place is so cozy.

 

[Tallen]

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but one of the things I like about smash is that anyone can be good with any character as long as they try hard enough. I hate tiers, actually. People stare right into one of them and then completely ignore thecharacters in mid to low tier. Trust me: if you ever got beaten up by someone using a so-called low or bottom tier and then hear people saying "Roy's awful" you would be mad as well.

 

[Milln]

Or you could go with Lucario and have blue flames coming out of your hands. =D

 

[Pentaoku]

Ok well, I just tested out that strangle on Ness in training mode. Yes. Training Mode.

For the most part, it seems characters with a ranged grab; mainly ZSS, Link, and Toon Link can do this without any real worries, and could probably spend a long time just mashing the grab button.. Though after a while I noticed Samus takes a little longer to actually grab Ness (like 3 grabs?) and that MIGHT give enough time to escape. When I tried with Yoshi (I might be doing it wrong), couldn't get Ness to break out without him flying into the air.

Now other than ZSS, Link and Toon Link, the worst offenders to Ness will be Marth (obvious), Snake (he does it ALMOST as well as Marth. He has to move forward a bit after each grab, but only the distance of a Force Palm chain [very little]), Squirtle (See Snake), and Charizard (See Snake again). I wouldn't get your hopes up, as I might be doing it wrong, but most other characters do the strangulation via moving after each release. Some characters require a dash after release, and if the character slides a lot (IE Luigi), it's not as useful as it would be with someone else. For example, Pit can get up to around 100% if you do it right, but since it is training mode with a level 3 CPU, chances are an actual player with spaz out and you won't get that high of a percent.

I also found it hard to do with Zelda, but I think by far the most pointless one to even do this against Ness (and maybe Lucas) is Lucario. His grab doesn't do as much damage as the other characters, and he pretty much HAS to dash to regrab again. This makes him lose distance to actually deal his half a percent of damage.

I don't want to get your hopes up too much, but with a lot of characters, this technique doesn't seem as game breaking as I thought it would be, though I'd expect most characters being able to get 30-40% before Ness or Lucas breaks out, whereas the worst offenders pretty much have free kills on grabs.

Of course I could just be doing this wrong...

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Bad for you, good for us. It'll be nice to have you contributing to Lucario's metagame.

For a new sig, you could have Lucario charging an aura sphere, or doing that wierd kung-fu/twisty arm thing he does when charging a forward/down smash.

Or he can have a sig of Lucario chaingrabbing Ness across the board...

Or better yet, keep the sig, people in tournaments will expect Ness, then you can whoop them with Lucario.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Lol at all the "U can win with any character!" people.

This isn't just a Mewtwo Low tier deal. This is an absolutely CRIPPLING problem. I do not want to play a character who will be getting 20-30 damage MINIMUM every time they get grabbed.

You will NOT be able to go for an entire tourney without being grabbed by someone.

It's not something you can adjust your strategy around sensibly without completely ruining your character's more effective playstyle!

I may not be an avid tourney goer, but I still don't want to play a character who I know to be flawed.

 

[Annhialator Zero]

Nessbounder; if getting that much damage off a grab worries you so much, what the hell did you do against the Ice Climbers in Melee?

Just a question.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Nessbounder; if getting that much damage off a grab worries you so much, what the hell did you do against the Ice Climbers in Melee?

Just a question.

Ice Climbers were just one character, and if they were separated, they couldn't do their grab combos. It was pretty easy to push them apart because of the way Nana tended to block things 6 frames after Popo.

This however, is a technique that can be pulled off by pretty much every character in the game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ everyone who doesn't know: In the Lucas boards, Cort says that Ness and Lucas have the two worst grab escape animations in the game, allowing them to be either chaingrabbed or Smashed out of an escape.

At that topic, I suggested how I think it should be banned. =/

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

wtf, dude. My bro just won a tourney with his Lucas.

 

[Browny]

all that proves is the other people in the tourney dont know about the infinite grab yet

 

[kenkowtow]

I don't really care if you main Lucario.

But that sig is too awesome to go. Let me have it if you don't want it.

 

[Trapt497]

Nessbounder don't skip over this because you disagree. Seriously dude. Read this.

*reads carefully*
...
*slaps Nessbounder full in the face*
Oh really? You mean because of ONE tiny ickle detail you are COMPLETELY letting go of one of your favorite characters? (or two favorite characters, whatever) You are telling me that because Sakurai just BARELY changed your character to balance the game one tiny little bit you are just going to give up completely??
Come on, smash bros. started out as a game in which you could pick your favorite nintendo character and see with your friends who would win in a match. It's about picking your favorite animal/pokemon/mercenary/raving lunatic and showing your worth with him, not about forgetting a character because he is slightly flawed. In melee I knew a friend who used mewtwo because he really liked pokemon and really enjoyed the first movie. He would practice daily, try hard as hell, lose quite a few times but would always try to go around Mewtwo's flaws. And you know what? he'd still beat the crap outta me every now and then.
and Mewtwo was FREAKING BOTTOM HELL TIER. Did it stop my friend? You bet it didn't.
I know many Lucas and Ness users around here in my country. When I learned to chain grab them, they wouldn't go "boo hoo now I gotta change character because they suck". When Sakurai implemented the awful lag before Falcon Punch my buddy didn't stop using him due to that fact. They all ADAPTED. learned to change their strategy.
But hey, these are my friends. Maybe you're different. Maybe you don't know how to work it out, how to change your strategy. But if you were such a real Lucas user you would've found a way out of this. You would show everyone how Lucas and Ness can still be great even with a little problem such as that.
Lucario has a few awful flaws to me. The slow smash attacks and the terrible inability to KO when he is at slow % just really annoy me. But I still use him because I like him. I like the way he fights like a kung-fu expert, at how he grows stronger every moment that passes in the game, at how I can go around his slow smash with aura spheres and double-teans. If me or Milln or any other Lucario user gave up in him because he was suddenly ranked low tier, how would you look at us later?
Do what you want, but I frankly think it's stupidity to give up on your favorite character due to a slight change in the rules. Don't run from the problem: find a solution to it.

Tallen dude you speak the truth. Nessbounder, you shouldnt let this one little thing keep you from your main. If one little flaw was discovered about Lucario, I sure as hell wouldnt change. Think about this man.

 

[Shack]

Lol at all the "U can win with any character!" people.

This isn't just a Mewtwo Low tier deal. This is an absolutely CRIPPLING problem. I do not want to play a character who will be getting 20-30 damage MINIMUM every time they get grabbed.

You will NOT be able to go for an entire tourney without being grabbed by someone.

It's not something you can adjust your strategy around sensibly without completely ruining your character's more effective playstyle!

I may not be an avid tourney goer, but I still don't want to play a character who I know to be flawed.

wouldnt ness and lucas be considered the worst in the game then? think of it, if u learn how to space ur self better or be aggressive enough, u prolly wont get grabbed as much. and if u know ppl r going to go for grabs, use that to ur advantage! it makes all ur advanced opponents predictable!

 

[Greenpoe]

I think people have been overestimating it. Some characters can only chain grab them until a certain percent, while others (Lucario) can't at all.

 

[salaboB]

Tallen dude you speak the truth. Nessbounder, you shouldnt let this one little thing keep you from your main. If one little flaw was discovered about Lucario, I sure as hell wouldnt change. Think about this man.

Assuming it's accurate, this isn't "one little" flaw in Ness or Lucas.

This would mean anytime you got grabbed as Lucario by the most popular tourney characters, you soaked up 30%+ damage.

Would you really try to play Lucario in tournaments if he suffered from that? Once people learn about this and practice it so they can do it easily, Ness and Lucas are going to be at a severe, undeserved disadvantage.

 

[Pentaoku]

Well... three of hte most popular tourney characters (Marth, Snake, and Toon Link) can all pretty much take absurd advantage of this... that is really, REALLY crippling.

It's pretty hard to just decide to play a character in a competetive arena knowing that one grab is all it takes from one of those three to pretty much end a stock.

 

[Tallen]

if you're looking into becoming a serious competitive player, then perhaps it IS better to change characters; altough there is always the possibility of overcoming the disadvantage competitive players will always stick to so-called high tier characters. I don't know, I'm not a Lucas/Ness user to know how awful this chain grab problem really is. however, if there is something we learned from melee is that metagame can change everything. We are barely two months into the game and we have only just scraped the surface: loads of things can STILL happen. Anyone else remember how awful Peach was until people began to learn how to use her properly in Melee? That took a while to get down to people.
However, the entire point of the game is around calling your friends, ordering a pizza, staying up until 4 AM playing and then wake up early the next day just to play some more. Who is going to give a s*** that one character is going to get chaingrabbed a little more? Who cares that one guy is slightly better than the other? I don't, at any rate.

Also, if it took you two months to quit on Lucas/Ness, your so-called favorite characters, how long are you going to last with Lucario?

 

[salaboB]

if you're looking into becoming a serious competitive player, then perhaps it IS better to change characters; altough there is always the possibility of overcoming the disadvantage competitive players will always stick to so-called high tier characters.
...
Also, if it took you two months to quit on Lucas/Ness, your so-called favorite characters, how long are you going to last with Lucario?

You're not understanding what's going on.

This isn't a "high tier character" vs. "low tier character" debate. He's not giving up on Ness/Lucas simply because he has to be a little better than his opponents if he wants to be able to win.

He's changing because if he gets grabbed by at least three of the most popular characters to use in tournaments, that's the end of that stock from any %. (Assuming the information is accurate). To compound the problem, the rest of the cast can still inflict significant pain for a grab, and avoiding all grabs is next to impossible.

That goes so far beyond any tier considerations it's not even funny. No other characters in the game have something that crippling that's tied to multiple opponents. Do you recommend using Donkey Kong against King DeDeDe? (He can infinite him at any % to any %, inescapable. All it takes is one throw) If not, how can you recommend ever playing Ness or Lucas in a tournament where it's very likely that you'll encounter multiple opponents who will be able to do that to you?

He has no reason to quit with Lucario for anything like that (At least, currently known), Lucario doesn't have an inescapable insta-death at the hands of Marth if he makes one mistake and gets grabbed.

He also never said he wouldn't play Ness or Lucas in casual play, but if you're going to take the time and effort to main someone and want to play in tournies with them then honestly, you're just being stupid if you pick someone that has known inescapable infinites against them from multiple popular opponents.

 

[Tallen]

You're not understanding what's going on.

This isn't a "high tier character" vs. "low tier character" debate. He's not giving up on Ness/Lucas simply because he has to be a little better than his opponents if he wants to be able to win.

He's changing because if he gets grabbed by at least three of the most popular characters to use in tournaments, that's the end of that stock from any %. (Assuming the information is accurate). To compound the problem, the rest of the cast can still inflict significant pain for a grab, and avoiding all grabs is next to impossible.

That goes so far beyond any tier considerations it's not even funny. No other characters in the game have something that crippling that's tied to multiple opponents. Do you recommend using Donkey Kong against King DeDeDe? (He can infinite him at any % to any %, inescapable. All it takes is one throw) If not, how can you recommend ever playing Ness or Lucas in a tournament where it's very likely that you'll encounter multiple opponents who will be able to do that to you?

He has no reason to quit with Lucario for anything like that (At least, currently known), Lucario doesn't have an inescapable insta-death at the hands of Marth if he makes one mistake and gets grabbed.

He also never said he wouldn't play Ness or Lucas in casual play, but if you're going to take the time and effort to main someone and want to play in tournies with them then honestly, you're just being stupid if you pick someone that has known inescapable infinites against them from multiple popular opponents.

Oh I get it now. If by any means I annoyed anyone off I apologise for it. I never had the intention of angering anyone.
It's just that it pains me to see someone giving up in a character due to the fact that he will be terrible against some specific users (or a lot of them). As I said, when the first tier list placed Mewtwo last my friend looked at it for a while, barely checked to see who was first and then called us for another match. I had no idea it would be that bad in Lucas/Ness users.
Still I really hoped someone would come up with something to avoid this. One of the things that I hate about the Wii is that there is no possiblity of patching the game.
*sighs*
Sorry about it Nessbounder. Hope you make friends around here. Truce?

 

[salaboB]

Still I really hoped someone would come up with something to avoid this. One of the things that I hate about the Wii is that there is no possiblity of patching the game.

I believe people are still looking for solutions to it, but it doesn't seem good -- at best, people seem to believe any grab is going to turn into a free smash against them which is a really killer punishment just for getting grabbed. At worst the chain grab will remain inescapable and high damage will be stacked onto that smash.

Sakurai just fails at understanding how to prevent infinites, which aren't good at all for casual players (A pro using one is going to annihilate them and no amount of "effort" on their part will help) and it should have been a priority of his to prevent such.

Sorry if I came off a little harsh, it just seemed like you were yelling at Nessbounder for the wrong reasons.

 

[Tallen]

Sorry if I came off a little harsh, it just seemed like you were yelling at Nessbounder for the wrong reasons.

nope. my fault all the way. I'm and idealist: hoping for the world to be perfect and all, which it isn't, and I hate myself for it.
I take it all myself (like a real man XD)

 

[Milln]

Luca Fire > PK Fire, it seems. =D (Just had to chime in for the annoyance XD)

 

[Trapt497]

^^ha nice.

god...Ness was already gonna be not so high tier and now this...i love ness but this really sucks.

I have yet to be chaingrabbed though. None of my friends do it (yet), so dont know what it looks like. But I get the idea.

from salaboB: "Would you really try to play Lucario in tournaments if he suffered from that? "

Yes. He is my main. Im not switching no matter what. I would practice.

Is there ANY possible way to avoid this? Discuss ideas. I have no ideas as of now b/c I have yet to be chaingrabbed.

I am not switching my third main out because some cheap*** f*g can do some cheap*** thing on me. Im fighting this. Im finding a way to stop this from happening.

 

[salaboB]

Is there ANY possible way to avoid this? Discuss ideas. I have no ideas as of now b/c I have yet to be chaingrabbed.

Don't get grabbed. Ever.

Other than that (Based on the discussion on the Ness board), nobody's found anything that works except hoping your opponent screws up.

Edit: If you really want to discuss how Ness or Lucas can get out of an infinite chaingrab, you'd probably be better off using the thread about it over on the Ness or Lucas boards.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I don't really care if you main Lucario.

But that sig is too awesome to go. Let me have it if you don't want it.

You'll change your mind when you see my new Lucario sig. I just have to finish keyframing it and then the colouring can commence.

And no, I'm not giving up on Ness and Lucas, but they aren't going to be my mains any more. They are doomed to be very specific counter-pick characters.

And for everyone who says "don't get grabbed! Huurr, the opponent will be predictable!" you don't understand how the sheild mechanics work in Brawl. In order to avoid being grabbed, I need to stay out of the opponent's dash grab range, and never approach on my own accord. I even have to be careful using any close range attack in case it might be sheilded and then grabbed. That rules out Ness's aerial and ground game almost completely, and it stuffs over a lot of Lucas's best close-range approaches too.

And no, there's no way to get out of it. And more characters can infinite Ness and Lucas this way that originally thought. Every one of Pokemon Trainer's mob can do it. Wario and Bowser can do it to some extent too. There are way too many counter-pick options against Ness and Lucas thanks to this silly programming oversight.

 

[Pentaoku]

You'll change your mind when you see my new Lucario sig. I just have to finish keyframing it and then the colouring can commence.

And no, I'm not giving up on Ness and Lucas, but they aren't going to be my mains any more. They are doomed to be very specific counter-pick characters.

And for everyone who says "don't get grabbed! Huurr, the opponent will be predictable!" you don't understand how the sheild mechanics work in Brawl. In order to avoid being grabbed, I need to stay out of the opponent's dash grab range, and never approach on my own accord. I even have to be careful using any close range attack in case it might be sheilded and then grabbed. That rules out Ness's aerial and ground game almost completely, and it stuffs over a lot of Lucas's best close-range approaches too.

And no, there's no way to get out of it. And more characters can infinite Ness and Lucas this way that originally thought. Every one of Pokemon Trainer's mob can do it. Wario and Bowser can do it to some extent too. There are way too many counter-pick options against Ness and Lucas thanks to this silly programming oversight.

Yeah I read over the death list thing, did it turn out that Link, Toon Link and such characters couldn't actually infinite with their tether grabs? Because earlier I tested Link's grab on Ness online with someone, and they seemed only to get away if for some reason I shielded instead of grabbed, though maybe his reaction isn't quick enough, and he never did spot dodge.

I'm glad to hear you're still sticking with your favorites, even if they aren't your main. I hope to see what you've got to say about Lucario and our playstyle, and maybe even videos soon.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Yeah I read over the death list thing, did it turn out that Link, Toon Link and such characters couldn't actually infinite with their tether grabs? Because earlier I tested Link's grab on Ness online with someone, and they seemed only to get away if for some reason I shielded instead of grabbed, though maybe his reaction isn't quick enough, and he never did spot dodge.

I'm glad to hear you're still sticking with your favorites, even if they aren't your main. I hope to see what you've got to say about Lucario and our playstyle, and maybe even videos soon.

Yeah, some characters can't infinite at all. Online isn't a good place to test though, because the lag makes it harder to perform running grabs right on time.

However, even Link and Toon Link can hit you with a down smash after you break out. That's pretty nasty either way.

 

[Milln]

Nessbounder should make me a signature. =\

 

[GDX]

whoa whoa, ness/lucas fail in their out of grab animations? i need to read up on this incase i face them in tourneys (i tend to not face ness/lucas in tourneys)

 

[phi1ny3]

Why!?!

K, Nessbounder, I've seen you since Melee (and before I joined), and u were awesome, so hear me out on this: While you do have this going against you, think of the benefits of everyone knowing this "bane" to Ness. I love Ness personally, and it would be a shame to see u give him up (although I am now a lucario mainer). This "chaingrab" might actually come to your advantage. It won't be long before many learn of it, and you will too. Think about it: You are in the tourney, and all of a sudden, you find that this person starts off with a chain. You then confirm "ok, so he knows that weakness". However, grabs aren't without flaws too. You have to get close to someone to grab obviously, which means they are going to rush you in some way. That said, you should learn to COUNTER that rush. Knowing that they are pretty much dependent on this newfound strategy, they will find themselves unable to approach, and will have to resort to traditional techniques. Then you have them caught. At the same time I'm glad you will try out lucario, I'm sad that you are giving up on Ness and Lucas. Mewtwo, Ness, Lucas, fight more than anything else with their mind. So should you.

Knowing the pixelated fight is not even the half of SSBB. True ability is in the understanding of both people and using your wit to reach ultimatum.
~Is that really me saying that!?! Awkward...
Mains in: Lucario, Ness, Marth, Dx3

 

[GDX]

they cant grab you if you they dont use dodge counters, so figure out the dodge counter for each character and learn to avoid/stop it at all costs. because if they cant counter your dodging, they cant stop you from dodging, and they cant grab when you are dodging all of their attacks instead of blocking, which a dodge counter makes you do