Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Zannabluke]

is there anyone that solidly beats wario?

diddy, mario and zss (shiek is a given)

 

[Ikes]

Does diddy beat wario? Seems like he just gets him up to rage % and then Wario gets a stock lead and rage wafts him next stock at like 20.

idk, could be wrong. Diddy doesnt kill like he used to though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@ Wario matchup stuff:

- Loses to Sheik, Fox, Yoshi and Mario for sure, has a hard time against Falcon and Ganondorf [!!!]
- Probably beats Rosalina and Luigi slightly and goes even with most other high/top tiers, not sure about ZSS though
- Is generally good at dealing with annoying little campers like Pac-Man, Villager, DHD, Megaman, ...
- All swordfighters except Roy are difficult for him ... especially Ike


@ Tier lists being posted by top players:

Dabuz is the one to listen to. Not everything he says is necessarily agreeable but it's a lot more obvious where he's coming from with just about everything he says. It's a lot more ... aware of what's going on in the metagame. ESAM's and Zero's tier lists are literally nothing but personal opinions based on their own [selective] experiences.
@warionumbah2 I'm not sure why you're 'shocked' that he knows who Sarena is. From what I know of him he's always been kinda keeping an eye on what's happening in Japan.

Abadango explains his stuff so his list is also worth looking into.

 

[Zannabluke]

Does diddy beat wario? Seems like he just gets him up to rage % and then Wario gets a stock lead and rage wafts him next stock at like 20.

idk, could be wrong. Diddy doesnt kill like he used to though.

your first statement perfectly describes all wario's bad mus: think of wario as a gambler, with a comeback potential on par and maybe even better than lucario.

diddy still dominates the neutral with his banana and most of his kill power has been transferred from his aerials to his smashes.

i don't have a hard time with fox because wafts are easier to land on fast fallers (nair>waft) but the matchup is easily 60:40 in fox's favour.

 

[Ikes]

@ Wario matchup stuff:

- Loses to Sheik, Fox, Yoshi and Mario for sure, has a hard time against Falcon and Ganondorf [!!!]
- Probably beats Rosalina and Luigi slightly and goes even with most other high/top tiers, not sure about ZSS though
- Is generally good at dealing with annoying little campers like Pac-Man, Villager, DHD, Megaman, ...
- All swordfighters except Roy are difficult for him ... especially Ike


@ Tier lists being posted by top players:

Dabuz is the one to listen to. Not everything he says is necessarily agreeable but it's a lot more obvious where he's coming from with just about everything he says. It's a lot more ... aware of what's going on in the metagame. ESAM's and Zero's tier lists are literally nothing but personal opinions based on their own [selective] experiences.
@warionumbah2 I'm not sure why you're 'shocked' that he knows who Sarena is. From what I know of him he's always been kinda keeping an eye on what's happening in Japan.

Abadango explains his stuff so his list is also worth looking into.

explain to me how he loses to ganon or falcon?
The only swordies that I can see being trouble for him are Ike, Marth, and maaaaaaaybe Lucina. Shulk gets beat out by wario's excessively superior frame data, Roy has to get in Wario's most effective range, Tink and Link cant camp him, Dedede is too goddamn slow in the air aerial wise and moveset wise to catch wario (yeah dedede is a swordie, that hammer is basically a greatsword with a tree trunk slapped on), Meta knight might give him trouble but his disjoints are short as hell and its probably cause he's a top tier more than him being a swordy. Swordfighter i couldnt tell you.

your first statement perfectly describes all wario's bad mus: think of wario as a gambler, with a comeback potential on par and maybe even better than lucario.

diddy still dominates the neutral with his banana and most of his kill power has been transferred from his aerials to his smashes.

i don't have a hard time with fox because wafts are easier to land on fast fallers (nair>waft) but the matchup is easily 60:40 in fox's favour.

Wario only has to gamble when he's completely unable to use one of his several other onstage and offstage kills.

Rage wario isnt much of a gamble since waft can set up with a thrown bike and he kills like crazy with rage regardless. Only Lucario beats him out in terms of rage reward. Maybe Ganon.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

explain to me how he loses to ganon or falcon?
The only swordies that I can see being trouble for him are Ike, Marth, and maaaaaaaybe Lucina. Shulk gets beat out by wario's excessively superior frame data, Roy has to get in Wario's most effective range, Tink and Link cant camp him, Dedede is too goddamn slow in the air aerial wise and moveset wise to catch wario (yeah dedede is a swordie, that hammer is basically a greatsword with a tree trunk slapped on), Meta knight might give him trouble but his disjoints are short as hell and its probably cause he's a top tier more than him being a swordy. Swordfighter i couldnt tell you.

I'm not saying he loses to Falcon or Ganon. Idk if he does but both matchups are difficult. Even? Slightly [dis-]advantaged? I couldn't say at this point. But definitely matchups where you have to outplay your opponents. Same holds true for Ike, Marth, Shulk, MK and Mii Sword.

I do not consider TL and Link swordfighters in a strict traditional sense. Their game plan doesn't stand and fall with their player's capability of hitting you with the tip of their hitboxes. That said, they are both not easy matchups either. Wario generally doesn't have "easy" matchups except like Samus.

 

[TriTails]

How2Beat Ganon as Wario.

1. Pick the fat plumber.
2. Butt taunt at the start of the match.
3. Jump and ride the wind, effectively camping Ganon. Repeat until Waft is ready by keep throwing Bikes and Chomping him.
4. Get him off-stage. Waft.
5. Profit.

At least. That's what I've heard. I don't main Wario myself but I do think running away from Ganon the whole match is a good idea since Wario is rewarded for doing nothing. The longer it takes for Ganon to catch Wario, the more charge Waft will build.

 

[Smog Frog]

doesnt @ TheReflexWonder think that loses to (by a good amount, i might add?)

 

[Routa]

As a Wario player, who is fairly familiar with Wario vs Faptain MU, I have to say that the MU is slighty towards Wario. Why? Well Wario has 4 things that make the MU favourable to him: Dair, Nair, Fair and Waft. Faptain cannot challenge Wario's Fair or Nair (if we don't count his Uair). You are able to stop Faptain's approach by simply jumping and using Fair. Nair allows Wario to escape from strings easily, which makes Faptain's job even harder. And Waft... This MU becomes even more favourable when customs are on. You can get quick stock off from Faptain by just simply throwing him off-stage and using quick waft.

But then again... Faptain can KO Wario early with good read in mid %. If I had to put numbers... Well 55:45 and in customs on 60:40 in Wario's favour.

 

[adom4]

As a Wario player, who is fairly familiar with Wario vs Faptain MU, I have to say that the MU is slighty towards Wario. Why? Well Wario has 4 things that make the MU favourable to him: Dair, Nair, Fair and Waft. Faptain cannot challenge Wario's Fair or Nair (if we don't count his Uair). You are able to stop Faptain's approach by simply jumping and using Fair. Nair allows Wario to escape from strings easily, which makes Faptain's job even harder. And Waft... This MU becomes even more favourable when customs are on. You can get quick stock off from Faptain by just simply throwing him off-stage and using quick waft.

But then again... Faptain can KO Wario early with good read in mid %. If I had to put numbers... Well 55:45 and in customs on 60:40 in Wario's favour.

Do you have any experience with Ganon?
It feels like the MU is really unexplored & it's still mostly theory from both sides.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

As a Wario player, who is fairly familiar with Wario vs Faptain MU, I have to say that the MU is slighty towards Wario. Why? Well Wario has 4 things that make the MU favourable to him: Dair, Nair, Fair and Waft. Faptain cannot challenge Wario's Fair or Nair (if we don't count his Uair). You are able to stop Faptain's approach by simply jumping and using Fair. Nair allows Wario to escape from strings easily, which makes Faptain's job even harder. And Waft... This MU becomes even more favourable when customs are on. You can get quick stock off from Faptain by just simply throwing him off-stage and using quick waft.

But then again... Faptain can KO Wario early with good read in mid %. If I had to put numbers... Well 55:45 and in customs on 60:40 in Wario's favour.

Anything you can input in regards to the Ganondorf MU?

3. Jump and ride the wind, effectively camping Ganon. Repeat until Waft is ready by keep throwing Bikes and Chomping him.


At least. That's what I've heard. I don't main Wario myself but I do think running away from Ganon the whole match is a good idea since Wario is rewarded for doing nothing. The longer it takes for Ganon to catch Wario, the more charge Waft will build.

Wouldn't it make the MU kind of predictable if that's all you needed to do?

I mean, Up air (and nair iirc) can kick the fat man off his bike.
And iirc if Ganon trades with either the ground or aerial version of chomp he is in frame advantage or something like that.

Then after the traded Dtilt you can got for a throw or a DA to rack up more damage or setup for an edgeguard situation.

But then again, I haven't played many Wario's so I can't say for sure if this is entirely accurate, @ Blobface could probably elaborate on more info in regards to the is MU.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

doesnt @ TheReflexWonder think that loses to (by a good amount, i might add?)

I think it's a fairly even matchup. Extremely stupid but even. It's basically a campfest of the worst kind. I can see why a ... non-campy player like Reflex would hate it.

 

[Routa]

Do you have any experience with Ganon?
It feels like the MU is really unexplored & it's still mostly theory from both sides.

I don't have experience from that MU. I have always jumped to my Ike when fighting against Ganondorf.

I will give my two cents about Wario vs Shulk 'cause it is another MU that I am very familiar with, but I will do that later (well all I say for now is that Wario cannot match Shulk's superior range even tho he has frame data on his side).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Diddy, Mario, and Sheik beat Wario pretty solidly. I have a lot of trouble with Sonic but Abadango thinks it's even. Fox has historically beaten Wario but I think that with practice it might become a slight disadvantage. Falcon U-Air damage nerf actually helps a good amount in the matchup because even though he gets a million of them, your weight keeps you alive for a good while; he has trouble landing a clean KO. Probably about even.

I haven't played a competent Marth since April, but the buffs probably make it somewhat more annoying. Ike's hitboxes have always been a pain. *shrugs*

 

[Zannabluke]

As a Wario player, who is fairly familiar with Wario vs Faptain MU, I have to say that the MU is slighty towards Wario. Why? Well Wario has 4 things that make the MU favourable to him: Dair, Nair, Fair and Waft. Faptain cannot challenge Wario's Fair or Nair (if we don't count his Uair). You are able to stop Faptain's approach by simply jumping and using Fair. Nair allows Wario to escape from strings easily, which makes Faptain's job even harder. And Waft... This MU becomes even more favourable when customs are on. You can get quick stock off from Faptain by just simply throwing him off-stage and using quick waft.

But then again... Faptain can KO Wario early with good read in mid %. If I had to put numbers... Well 55:45 and in customs on 60:40 in Wario's favour.

bite also can stop falcon's approach game

 

[Baby_Sneak]

When I hear someone say camp, I automatically think about staying to the edge of the stage and doing nothing.
Is this right?

 

[Planty]

When I hear someone say camp, I automatically think about staying to the edge of the stage and doing nothing.
Is this right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2HEeP4HUVM
This is a campfest. Both players are super defensive and pretty much every game goes to time. Both players are waiting for the other one to do something.

 

[PUK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2HEeP4HUVM
This is a campfest. Both players are super defensive and pretty much every game goes to time. Both players are waiting for the other one to do something.

This is not a campfest, camping is not playing defensive.

 

[Ghostbone]

This is not a campfest, camping is not playing defensive.

Actually, that's exactly what it is

 

[Routa]

Some defensive playatyles:

Stalling (Wa!)
Camping (Lunk stronk)
Hit and Run (Praise the Sun!)
Spacing (*speaks in Japanese*)
Zoning ("Pew Pew" said the Gunner)
Bait and Punish (Sparta kick in da face)

Did I miss some?

 

[Kaladin]

Some defensive playatyles:

Stalling (Wa!)
Camping (Lunk stronk)
Hit and Run (Praise the Sun!)
Spacing (*speaks in Japanese*)
Zoning ("Pew Pew" said the Gunner)
Bait and Punish (Sparta kick in da face)

Did I miss some?

Yes.
Wario-ing: run away for three minutes, fart, repeat.

 

[Routa]

Yes.
Wario-ing: run away for three minutes, fart, repeat.

What you described, as far as I know, was Stalling.

 

[Dogivet]

Kinda Relevant? (since you want to talk of different play styles):
http://www.nerfnow.com/img/730/1177/large.jpg (warning: profanity)

For Smash replace:
Good Kill with "Hard Read"
and Strategy with Shiek.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Besides Mario, Diddy, and Sheik, I also think Yoshi solidly beats Wario, or is at least a slight advantage for Yoshi.

 

[outfoxd]

Some defensive playatyles:

Stalling (Wa!)
Camping (Lunk stronk)
Hit and Run (Praise the Sun!)
Spacing (*speaks in Japanese*)
Zoning ("Pew Pew" said the Gunner)
Bait and Punish (Sparta kick in da face)

Did I miss some?

The Obstacle Course (Quack Woof Boom)

 

[Trifroze]

As a Wario player, who is fairly familiar with Wario vs Faptain MU, I have to say that the MU is slighty towards Wario. Why? Well Wario has 4 things that make the MU favourable to him: Dair, Nair, Fair and Waft. Faptain cannot challenge Wario's Fair or Nair (if we don't count his Uair). You are able to stop Faptain's approach by simply jumping and using Fair. Nair allows Wario to escape from strings easily, which makes Faptain's job even harder. And Waft... This MU becomes even more favourable when customs are on. You can get quick stock off from Faptain by just simply throwing him off-stage and using quick waft.

But then again... Faptain can KO Wario early with good read in mid %. If I had to put numbers... Well 55:45 and in customs on 60:40 in Wario's favour.

Just gonna say that Wario's fair (or any other aerial of his) does not stop Falcon's approaches, as Falcon's bair and dash attack both beat it out or trade favorably depending on sweetspot/sourspot hitboxes. Falcon kinda dies offstage if waft is active but that's his offstage life in general and his strengths are designed to mostly make up for it. Not gonna comment on the matchup further though as I haven't had a chance to play against any good Warios.

 

[FullMoon]

As an aside, I don't think Greninja loses to Wario. It's a tricky MU since Wario makes us have to change our gameplan quite a bit to deal with his shenanigans. It's an annoying MU, but Greninja can deal with him just fine if the player knows what he's dealing with and adjusts themselves accordingly.

Waft is extremely scary though, but that's an issue everyone has with Wario.

 

[Meru.]

Dabuz tier list doesn't have anything controversial in it, it's definitely what most people seem to be thinking. He is criticized for putting Rosalina a bit lower than most would but she's still in the same tier so there's not that much of a difference between her and the rest. Besides, I hear a lot of character boards claiming that they have at least have an even match-up for Rosalina or that she is not that hard. I don't know if it's true but it gives me the impression that of all top tier characters Rosalina isn't the most feared. On thing I disagree on is Meta Knight though. This character is good but he is not top and he is hyped waaaay too much.

I disagree with like a LOT of stuff in ESAM's tier list but at least he knows who the worst character is, which is easily Zelda. Worst neutral in the game, underwhelming pressure game, extremely bad negative state (can't land at all), relies a lot on reads... This character is not good in singles (she's ok in doubles though). Funny how she's both the best and the worst character in the same game.

 

[LightLV]

Less lag and more damage would provide:

-Comboability from more hitstun and less endlag
-Shield pressure/damage (Super missile already does like +5-6% extra shield damage, add more damage and it'd be even better)
-Better neutral since she can follow her missiles better

You underrate the value of both missile changes should they occur.

Priority on Samus charge shot is as good as it gets without it being transcendent.

I'm not really underestimating, i'm just observing. Her missiles, as projectiles, would need significant changes to both variants to be a threat worth respecting.

Shield damage on this game is laughable, Marth/Lucina can hit shield with breaker and get it to like 5%, yet their opponent can do pretty much anything for a few measly seconds and have it past 50% again. Super Missiles having extra shield damage is pointless when they're easy to Pshield and they can be sidestepped and jumped over.

Again, not saying it's unfixable, but as-is, i feel like her projectiles are dreadful.

You'd use it in response to the opponent's projectile where charge shot can win. You can still use charge shot whenever you want and it comes out in like 15ish frames or something. Ex. If mario ever throws a fireball out, you just charge shot him. It keeps him in check. Reflectors typically have quite a bit of commitment to them.

Link's shield is a laughable argument. You can also just press R and shield all projectiles, too, but even on power shield you're stuck for a fair amount of time.

Link's bomb does cancel it out since it's considered an item and has HP, but it has much less range and a time limit. Samus just has to not use charge shot or charge again from a distance. Charge shot will go through/beat side and neutral B I believe.

Charge shot can't go through DHD's stuff, but the projectiles are laggy anyways. What beats charge shot and doesn't just lose or cancel?

I don't think Charge Shot itself is a bad move, it's a good move. What I said is, it's not nearly good enough of an ability to offset all the many things Samus is lacking, and compared to other charge moves it isn't all that spectacular either.

Samus can punish a fireball from Mario if her cannon is charged, but after that you still have the issue of Mario being able to harass her from a distance while closing in, and having vastly superior buttons to mash once he does.

Fully charged deals 25% and kills DHD in training mode default location at 80%. That's good enough (Vectoring will counteract rage for the most part I think). The options out of shield cancel are good and it has quick startup. Your 100% data is anecdotal and likely missing details.

Charge Shot is not killing anyone decent at 80% unless they're offstage or just don't DI at all, like training mode dummies. Again, her Charge Shot is a pretty pathetic move if she's being balanced around it, while:

-Lucario's has a charging hitbox that traps, benefits from Aura AND rage
-WFT's feels way faster, probably has a bigger hitbox, heals her, AND she has vastly better normals
-Mewtwo's also has a trapping hitbox, is comparably powerful and he comes equipped with a reflector for good measure

Again, CS is NOT a bad move, it just is not nearly good enough of a tool considering what she's lacking. I stand by what I said earlier -- if we're going to balance Samus around her cannon, uncharged needs to recover significantly faster after fire, deal more damage, and Charge Shot needs to do like, 60% shield damage if it's not perfect blocked and kill from midscreen without DI at 90%, uncontested.

 

[Blobface]

Wario v Ganon
Ehhhh I just don't see how Wario is supposed to keep Ganondorf out of his optimal range (Dash Attack and D-tilt range, somewhere between 1/3 FD and 1/4 FD). Bike does technically force Ganon to approach but it can't make him commit to anything, Wario's short range means he has no quick way to get at Ganon, and Ganondorf's big meaty aerials are really hard for wario to get around in the air.

And even if we assume 100% camp, constantly running away, Wario will reach the edge and then what does he do?

I honestly don't think just camping is even the optimal way to play this matchup. You're probably better off baiting him into making commitments and punishing accordingly. Even then, I can't see this matchup as anything better than even for Wario. I don't see it being a crushing advantage for Ganon either though. Wario is almost as fat as Ganon, has overall better speed, and the ever classy threat of Waft, so it's certainly not much worse than a +1 for Ganon.

With all this said, Adom is right in that neither side has ever really played the matchup, so if any Wario's would like to play me, I'm free this evening. It'll have to be wifi of course.


Offhand comment: doing nothing then F-smashing is the new anti-shield meta.

 

[LightLV]

When I hear someone say camp, I automatically think about staying to the edge of the stage and doing nothing.
Is this right?

Well, this is Smash 4, rolls move at C constant and shielding is analogous to a Third Strike parry, so you've probably been looking at campy matches for months and didn't even realize it

 

[PUK]

Actually, that's exactly what it is

Wait what i wanted to mean is playing defensive is not necessarely playing campy.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Wario v Ganon
Ehhhh I just don't see how Wario is supposed to keep Ganondorf out of his optimal range (Dash Attack and D-tilt range, somewhere between 1/3 FD and 1/4 FD). Bike does technically force Ganon to approach but it can't make him commit to anything, Wario's short range means he has no quick way to get at Ganon, and Ganondorf's big meaty aerials are really hard for wario to get around in the air.

And even if we assume 100% camp, constantly running away, Wario will reach the edge and then what does he do?

I honestly don't think just camping is even the optimal way to play this matchup. You're probably better off baiting him into making commitments and punishing accordingly. Even then, I can't see this matchup as anything better than even for Wario. I don't see it being a crushing advantage for Ganon either though. Wario is almost as fat as Ganon, has overall better speed, and the ever classy threat of Waft, so it's certainly not much worse than a +1 for Ganon.

With all this said, Adom is right in that neither side has ever really played the matchup, so if any Wario's would like to play me, I'm free this evening. It'll have to be wifi of course.


Offhand comment: doing nothing then F-smashing is the new anti-shield meta.

I have played the MU against BaddyDan in Ontario, it's not free for either side. Dash attack range is something Wario needs to deal with, I don't think Ganon's d-tilt is really as big of a scare for Wario as u-air, u-smash and f-tilt are, Ganon's reverse u-airs especially. Wario basically needs to play like an ass and be annoying with chomps catching his shield and punishing what Ganon uses with weaving aerials and bike rides.

 

[LightLV]

Wait what i wanted to mean is playing defensive is not necessarely playing campy.

Camping is holding a position without engaging because whatever you're doing, wherever you are, gives you an advantage. It doesn't matter if you're holding shield or jumping up and down and throwing out aerials, it's camping.

Smash 4 is inherently campy because there's no such thing as a blockstring, or even a "safe on block" move...unless you're someone like ZSS, who can hit your shield from a safe position, or Sheik, who can hit your shield and just walk away because she's Sheik.

 

[Routa]

Just gonna say that Wario's fair (or any other aerial of his) does not stop Falcon's approaches, as Falcon's bair and dash attack both beat it out or trade favorably depending on sweetspot/sourspot hitboxes. Falcon kinda dies offstage if waft is active but that's his offstage life in general and his strengths are designed to mostly make up for it. Not gonna comment on the matchup further though as I haven't had a chance to play against any good Warios.

That is true. Faptain's Dash and Rar Bair do beat Wario's Fair and Nair. But when Wario uses "Fake Retreat"* (or FR) Fair he is able to "beat" Faptain's Dash Attack and Rar Bair. Speedy Bike will encourage Faptain to play defensive which will mean that more safe Waft charging. Also the size of the stage matters also. The wider the stage the better it is for Wario (more space for Bike). But stages that benefit Wario in this MU are: Smashville (Wii U), Prism Tower (3DS) and FD. Small stage and a lot of plathforms is no no for Wario in this MU.

But then again... Wario has hard time getting thous % than Faptain, so...

*FR = jumping backwards and using Fair and keeping the control stick forward to gain some movement forwards. This method allows "dodge" incoming Dash Attack or Dash Grab and punish it afterwards. Wario's Fair is excellent for FRing due to lingering hitbox. FR is all about timing and predicting foes attack.

 

[Pazx]

ROB seems to do pretty well against Wario from my experience but if you're not getting dthrow uair cheese or taking rather large risks off stage the matches suddenly get a lot longer and a lot slower. Super Dthrow Uair Bros. is the truth, if your character has some way to reliably kill opponents who shield at the wrong time said character's viability is increased dramatically.

Doc' OoS options are arguable one of the best of the game. (On the levels of and ).

This is a dumb minor nitpick but Doc's OoS options are almost unrivaled in terms of how good they are while Ness has... short hop nair? Does grab count? I'm not sure what you were going for here.

 

[FullMoon]

-Mewtwo's also has a trapping hitbox, is comparably powerful and he comes equipped with a reflector for good measure

Pretty sure Shadow Ball doesn't hurt enemies while it's charging (it did in Melee tho).

 

[LightLV]

Pretty sure Shadow Ball doesn't hurt enemies while it's charging (it did in Melee tho).

oops, exposed, my bad.

To my defense, don't nobody play mewtwo in this game either

 

[Routa]

About the charging ball things... I think WFT has overall the best. Let's see what is has going for itself:

- Deals a lot of damage
- Can kill at low/mid %
- Heals the user
- Can be charged in air

And then there are the custom ones. Other one is 360° No scope and another one pushes you from the game and from your chair.

As far as I know no other ball can even get close to that.

 

[LightLV]

WFT's ability to aircharge definitely makes it the best in my eyes. Her animation for it is also somewhat inconspicuous.

I have no idea why on earth Samus can't aircharge her cannon.