Villager Dsmash Followup - Upsmash is not the optimal punish?

[Darklink401]

As we know, if someone is buried due to our dsmash, knockback on any move we try will be nerfed. And most of us, as far as I know, have figured out that dsmash to upsmash eliminates that issue, because of the multihit properties of upsmash.

However, there is a more optimal punish when you get a dsmash, that will kill twice as fast.

When you fsmash a buried opponent, due to the KB reduction, they will not fly very fast at all...and if you try to pop them up with a jab and fsmash, that doesn't combo, so they can escape.

HOWEVER, what if there WAS a way to combo into fsmash? Well there is.

If an opponent is buried, and you summon lloid, then immediately fsmash, lloid will pop the opponent up, and fsmash will combo for kills as early as 65% on characters as heavy as Ganon

Fun fact: If you have a tree already up, with one chop and your opponent is next to it for some reason, you can lloid into axing the tree, for a 3-hit combo (Lloid, axe, tree falling) that does 46% damage. Not the most practical, but a fun note to take into account =P


EDIT: Lloid will not explode in time if the opponent mashes out at god-like speeds. Not likely to happen, however.

Also lloid only pops them up from the ground after a certain %

 

[Volya]

Missile then fsmash takes some times tho, i'm pretty sure the opponent can go out of his hole before the missile hit if he button mash correctly.

 

[Darklink401]

Missile then fsmash takes some times tho, i'm pretty sure the opponent can go out of his hole before the missile hit if he button mash correctly.

Lloid hitbox coming out takes about as much time as charging upsmash for a second and releasing it, which I always get, but while I do intend on testing it, I can assure you that it doesnt take THAT long XP

 

[Kanzaki]

This seems as it can be used as mind game purposes.. What I used to do against Villagers is I STAY inside the ground to avoid the inevitable upsmash. Then I mash out. It almost always work.

 

[JohnnyB]

You use been posting some great stuff lately Darklink!

I usually avoid using dsmash (imo its villagers worst move), but if lloid -> fsmash works that well i light just give it another chance.

 

[Darklink401]

You use been posting some great stuff lately Darklink!

I usually avoid using dsmash (imo its villagers worst move), but if lloid -> fsmash works that well i light just give it another chance.

I'd try using it more to read getup options. If your opponent is at the ledge, run toward the ledge, then run back and dsmash, and you'll slide, catching a roll (most people jump or roll to avoid bowling ball)

 

[PyroBandit]

This is really cool! D-Smash is always a move that people seem to overlook when fighting (and playing as) Villager, so anything to make it better is great!

I actually did some tests on my own to see how viable this could be, but I could only test on CPU's (I'll try it on real people soon) This is what I found:

Level 9's: I figured that the highest difficulty would also have the fastest mash-out rate, and I found that they are able to escape the hole before the Lloid connects up until 250%...which is obviously NOT worth it compared to the usual Up-Smash followup.

Level 7's: People say that 7's are the closest to real human reaction times, so with that I mind, they get hit by the Lloid at around 95%-105%. The Up-Smash followup starts killing at around 120% and above.

So there's a small window where the Lloid into F-Smash is more viable then an Up-Smash, unless the other player is ridiculously fast on their mashing out. Overall, this could be a very worthwhile mixup!

 

[Darklink401]

And of course, CPUs start mashing out RIGHT after they get caught. It takes the human brain at least 1/10th of a second to begin the action. (around that)

 

[Player-1]

god like speeds? It's not too hard to mash out of first hit dsmash even at higher percents you can probably only get it partially charged. Not only that but you have to wait for the dsmash to end which is a problem with the first hit dsmash. Lloid hits on frame 53 which is pretty slow so basically this will only work at higher percentages or if you land the 2nd hit of dsmash and by that time usmash will probably already be at kill percentages. There may be a window where this is optimal though so it's good to know, but I don't think that window will be very large. On stages with high ceilings like BF I think this would be more useful obviously so also good to know for that.

Usually if I don't think usmash is going to kill I go for sourspot uair into another uair which can get you some pretty early kills if you get the triple uair on the 2nd one which is a pretty decent chance since you have almost a 40% chance to get a triple based on the data in the sticky.

 

[Darklink401]

god like speeds? It's not too hard to mash out of first hit dsmash even at higher percents you can probably only get it partially charged. Not only that but you have to wait for the dsmash to end which is a problem with the first hit dsmash. Lloid hits on frame 53 which is pretty slow so basically this will only work at higher percentages or if you land the 2nd hit of dsmash and by that time usmash will probably already be at kill percentages. There may be a window where this is optimal though so it's good to know, but I don't think that window will be very large. On stages with high ceilings like BF I think this would be more useful obviously so also good to know for that.

Usually if I don't think usmash is going to kill I go for sourspot uair into another uair which can get you some pretty early kills if you get the triple uair on the 2nd one which is a pretty decent chance since you have almost a 40% chance to get a triple based on the data in the sticky.

I wrote a guide on this XD

That being said, I totally see that from the research done so far. Mashing out of down B is easier than I thought. However it's also still nice that lloid can combo into fsmash situational, but neat.

Maybe you can also drop fsmash into the opponent and hope they pop out the exact moment you let go of the fsmash xD

 

[Nintendoge_]

Maybe you can also drop fsmash into the opponent and hope they pop out the exact moment you let go of the fsmash xD

@AceStarThe3rd did that once in a Villager undefeatable. There were like five seconds left before sudden death and the u-smash wouldn't kill, so he used fsmash and ended up timing it so it hit right when the opponent jumped out of the ground. It was a clutch kill.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

@AceStarThe3rd did that once in a Villager undefeatable. There were like five seconds left before sudden death and the u-smash wouldn't kill, so he used fsmash and ended up timing it so it hit right when the opponent jumped out of the ground. It was a clutch kill.

If only there was indication before they pop out of the ground.

 

[Darklink401]

There is.

You just need to have godlike reflexes

XD

 

[Mr.Sile]

"Maybe you can also drop fsmash into the opponent and hope they pop out the exact moment you let go of the fsmash xD"

Villager's secret weapon, I call it.

Saved me so many times in bracket.

 

[Teshie U]

Is riding the gyroid the same speed? I always try to do gyroid ride into an aerial or axe (if its by the ledge i go for Dair).

I don't trust upsmash because people tend to fall out of it randomly.

 

[Comet Knight]

Is riding the gyroid the same speed? I always try to do gyroid ride into an aerial or axe (if its by the ledge i go for Dair).

I don't trust upsmash because people tend to fall out of it randomly.

Lloid Riding is quite punishable to go for. The rare time I ever go for it is for recovering when there is a tree up on stage that I can run it into. Running into a shield (or the tree for a bit more reliability) will not put you into freefall and the momentum can get you pretty far across the stage from the jump off of the explosion.

As for this combo? I'll have to try it but many of my opponents at tournaments mash out before I can even get an fmsash out. But generally during kill percents I go for charged Up smashes because because you have time for that then it will kill pretty well. But charging an Fsmash and having the good reflexes to react to the release is something I have definitely done before and it is able to be done but timing is a bit hard to do for it. Reacting to the release is a bit more ballsy in my opinion and possibly could elongate the duration of the stock when you could use a charge Up smash which you can catch the jump with much easier and more efficient. But it does seem like a good mix up, just not a reliable one in my opinion.

 

[JohnnyB]

Lloid Riding is quite punishable to go for. The rare time I ever go for it is for recovering when there is a tree up on stage that I can run it into.

This

But also i sometimes condition my opponents to use a projectile to counter my lloid, but then i ride it when they are a high percents for the kill. It works amazing on luigi in particular, but might be too risky in a live tournament.

 

[AJL]

However, there is a more optimal punish when you get a dsmash, that will kill twice as fast.

Isn't pulling out a Lliod then a bowling ball twice as slow as using an up smash? Or are we talking about killing power?

Actually I almost never use down smash unless it's on accident. When should I be using it?

 

[zang]

Isn't pulling out a Lliod then a bowling ball twice as slow as using an up smash? Or are we talking about killing power?

Actually I almost never use down smash unless it's on accident. When should I be using it?

I like to use it when i predict them rolling into me

 

[Comet Knight]

Isn't pulling out a Lliod then a bowling ball twice as slow as using an up smash? Or are we talking about killing power?

Actually I almost never use down smash unless it's on accident. When should I be using it?

I like to use it when i predict them rolling into me

Any roll read can work, and sometimes if they landing near me I will spot dodge and down smash. And Upsmash is actually much faster than lloid+bowlingball.

 

[zang]

Any roll read can work, and sometimes if they landing near me I will spot dodge and down smash. And Upsmash is actually much faster than lloid+bowlingball.

I tried Lloid into bowling ball in FG today and was kind of a struggle so yeah i think sticking to Upsmash is more reliable

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

What about falling U-Air to U-Tilt or falling U-Air to grab possibly.

 

[Lochy]

I think Up smash is more reliable then loid to f smash. Also I think Tommy is on to something I think falling U air to Up tilt sounds like a nice combo. So does Falling Up air to grab (probably at low percents.)
Can D smash to Dair work?

 

[Darklink401]

I think Up smash is more reliable then loid to f smash. Also I think Tommy is on to something I think falling U air to Up tilt sounds like a nice combo. So does Falling Up air to grab (probably at low percents.)
Can D smash to Dair work?

Dsmash to dair can work, but you're relying on probability xD

 

[Lochy]

Dsmash to dair can work, but you're relying on probability xD

Yeah I know