Wario's Match-Ups!

[Lord Chair]

Ice blocks are a threat what? You do more damage than Wario but then again, you do more damage than pretty much any character in this game. You cannot force landings, you don't have safe counterplay against FH aerial poking and there is no such thing as getting closer to our landing position as long as Wario decides not to land in front of you. Dashing right below Wario won't net you anything because Wario won't commit to you being below him in the first place (why would he?).

Any stage with a platform is a stage on which Wario shouldn't realistically get grabbed bar the earlier mentioned technical errors, dumb decisionmaking or tripping.

 

[Pwneroni]

Haha Lord Chair you are awesome Wario can stay very safe as long as he doesn't land next to ICs. The best IC I've played against is toobusytocare from Washington. He also mains Wario, so he really knows his spacing and can really dominate the matchup if you're not careful. I'm pretty sure I've only beaten him 1 time in tournament out of like 4 or 5 sets.

Anyways, ICs can be really tricky with their grabs and desynchs. It's freaking scary trying to approach a 2 man army, so if they start with that you can just ride your bike and jump away, or crash it and break it for tires. ICs range is pretty small, so you can safely break your bike if you are careful. The tires you get can help with poking, stage control and possibly separating Nana. I really think that Uthrowing the tire can be beneficial here, because consecutive combo hits from sending them into it could separate the 2. Combining smart aerials with a bouncing tire will help tremendously.

+1 to Wario, he can stay safe and separate the ICs, waft to KO Nana.

 

[xzx]

The ICs are saying it's in their favor.

Oh.

Jebu: +1
xzx: -1
Croi: +1
FreESAM: -1/-2
TheSaintKai: -1
TheReflexWonder: 0/+1
Lord Chair: -1
Ruinn: 0
Pwneroni: +1

I am getting a feeling that this MU really is in ICs' favour... Wario should be playing his aerial game against them but then there's ICs' stupid aerials who can devastate Wario's range. And seriously, I don't need to mention Wario's ground game (with the exception of bike)... Heck, that feeling struck me. It feels like it is in IC's favour now. =/ The only thing we can do is to hope to seperate them and go for Nana (if the circumstances allows it) simultaneously to avoid getting grabbed. Also, ICs' desynch game is just too freaking powerful, meaning it is harder to land hits.

I just wanted to say that if any of the ratios above are wrong, please let me know.

 

[-LzR-]

A Wario with a stocklead on a stage with platforms is totally not cool in this MU. I'm not sure if I have ever recovered from such situation but I am bad so it doesn't matter.

 

[DeLux]

Bpow thinks the MU is -7 for Wario.

I think it's +1 for ICs

 

[xzx]

Jebu: +1
xzx: -1
Croi: +1
FreESAM: -1/-2
TheSaintKai: -1
TheReflexWonder: 0/+1
Lord Chair: -1
Ruinn: 0
Pwneroni: +1
Iridescent: -1

(ESAM and Reflex, please pick one ratio you think fits this MU! xP)

 

[Iota]

Died@Bpow ratio.

I personally feel that I'm really bad at this MU but going from what I know (which isn't much) I think this MU is 0/-1 Wario. Lord chair really said what I feel about it, both characters are just really waiting for each other to make a mistake but ICs have somewhat safer options for pressure and damage racking. Sticking to 0 for my ratio though.

 

[DeLux]

Reflex's opinion is skewed because he actually mains permanent final smash super wario man

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'll say 0. That's fair to say.

 

[xzx]

Jebu: +1
xzx: -1
Croi: +1
FreESAM: -1/-2
TheSaintKai: -1
TheReflexWonder: 0
Lord Chair: -1
Ruinn: 0
Pwneroni: +1
Iridescent: -1
Iota: 0

The opinions on this MU are pretty varying. I can understand 0, but not +1! =( If someone would recommend on how one should play in this MU, it would be appreciated (so we have something to discuss)! Personally I don't have much experience in this MU, so I would rather know how a really experienced Wario sees on this MU! =) *points at Reflex*

 

[DeLux]

Reflex used DJ intelligently and had patience for days. On separation he made sure Nana at a lot of damage before getting back to me. He had patience for days.

He also wafted me out of Nair > Dash Grab

 

[BPx]

green overalls wario wins the matchup








every other wario loses every time

but really I think this matchup is -1.

 

[Croi]

green overalls wario wins the matchup








every other wario loses every time

*takes notes*

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I'll say +2 for ICs then.

No, you cannot stay safe all the time. Regardless of how much your fart charges, it isn't really a threat in this MU unless the ICs is bad and somehow gets separated with the AMAZING WARIO SEPARATION MOVES LIKE.....none of them. We out-damage you, out-camp you, can kill you in one grab while you have....pokes. HOLY ****ING **** POKES ARE SO SCARY oh wait they aren't because we can be at 200% and still kill you at 0%. You can't run away forever because we outrange you in the air and on the ground. You can't really poke because of pivot grabs (Or for more aggressive pivot grabs, the fox trot pivot grabs). You don't have reliable pokes because of that, you don't have reliable damage, you don't have reliable stages, you don't have reliable ANYTHING in this MU.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ice Climbers' grab range forces them to put themselves in range of Waft when they want to legitimately go in. The bike on a platform can lag out Ice Climbers' pokes and make them less safe. Tires can punish most of Ice Climbers' poke options, and there's basically no risk to having the bike out on the stage, as being edgeguarded is rarely an issue against Ice Climbers. It also prevents them from a repeated Jab after they leave themselves open near it, for all it's worth. Platform shield drop is also good for fighting Ice Cilmbers while keeping to platforms. Ice Climbers' poking just isn't as reliable as people make them out to be; at least, against Wario.

You want to inch Ice Climbers to the edge of the stage before you make any real commitments. Wario is one of the best characters for punishing Nana. D-Air and U-Air are somewhat safe if you use them at the right times, though the right times are often situational. N-Air is also situational, but is also awesome for carrying Nana out to her death after you separate them.

Peach outranges us everywhere, too, but that doesn't mean we can't run for eight minutes consistently.

 

[Lord Chair]

ESAM, you could apply your reasoning to any matchup and call it +2. Uairing Wario on a platform forces ICs to shield in order to prevent being uaired (as Reflex noted), you trade shield pressure for shield pressure.

You say all we have is pokes, do we need anything else? I don't see what's wrong with poking if it leads to building up damage on either IC. I'll be the last person to advocate how good fart is in this MU because it's whatever, regardless of how strong it is it will either kill or seperate to an extent large enough to mean death to either one of the IC.

Another thing you keep mentioning is being a death threat at any percentage, do you keep insisting that grabbing Wario is something to rely on? If not, how are you going to kill Wario without committing to something ridiculously punishable?

edit: pivot grabs don't beat FH rising aerials, they effectively cost you stage control with minimal chances of reward, there is no reason for wario to commit to things that lose to pivot grab

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

@Reflex You pretend as if ICs need a grab to win. The point of Ice Climbers in general are to either scare the opponent so much that we time them out or force them to make 1 mistake, gain a huge lead by grabbing them, and then force them to approach for the rest of the game (or play way too cautiously to ever come close to regaining the lead so we time them out).

From the beginning of the match Wario is in a disadvantageous position because we are way more threatening at every % than you are. Tires don't really do anything because we have 2 of them and air dodges. Yeah, doesn't do much...

Keeping your bike on-stage is actually terrible since you can't be as mobile in the air and we definitely WILL catch you if you can't do it.

Punishing nana? What moves do you have that will separate? Dair? Pivot grab...like...that's about it.

@Lord Chair The thing is we have BETTER pokes than you do. Our pokes do more damage, are safer, and we have more consistent projectiles.

 

[xzx]

Jebu: +1
xzx: -1
Croi: +1
FreESAM: -2
TheSaintKai: -1
TheReflexWonder: 0
Lord Chair: -1
Ruinn: 0
Pwneroni: +1
Iridescent: -1
Iota: 0
BPx: -1

Throwing the bike against Ice Climbers is a good way of pressuring them, but that situation is too risky, if the ICs are nearby.

 

[Lord Chair]

No one doubts IC advantage. +2 is doubted. Bike never left on stage, left on platform. Fair to seperate, last hit dair works fine when opportunity is offered. No one ever said you need a grab, you just keep stressing how good it is (as if no one knows).

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It isn't the grab that is good, it is the fact that wario doesn't have any disjoints to abuse, so pivot grab can technically beat everything. Obviously it won't happen every time, but I'll take 1 grab for 7 fairs. Fair doesn't even separate that well assuming both get hit. Dair is the only move that actually separates, but it is a really bad range so it can just be hit easily or blizzarded or PG'd.

Also, you say "nobody" doubts the IC advantage...but

Jebu: +1
xzx: -1
Croi: +1
FreESAM: -2
TheSaintKai: -1
TheReflexWonder: 0
Lord Chair: -1
Ruinn: 0
Pwneroni: +1
Iridescent: -1
Iota: 0
BPx: -1

All the highlighted people do.

 

[Labernash]

I'm just going to say -1. There's probobly ten IC's in the wolrd who will literally take a stock for every grab he lands. But getting grabbed still gets a lot of percent on us, which makes us approach, which makes us get grabbed again. But we can also kill IC really early and whatnot, so.... Meh. I dunno, not a lot of experience against good IC's. The best I've fought I double 2 stocked.

-1

 

[TheSaintKai]

I feel like Wario has a hard time separating an Ice Climbers that doesn't fall for bait. As long as the ICs chooses safe options (for example, our retreating n-air and b-air beats every aerial you come in with) and covers your retreating landings with Ice Blocks, pivot grab becomes WAY more viable as a mix-up for us. The problem is that Wario has NO disjoints. If you FH aerials into us, we can nair you OoS or just shield and reset the situation. Reflex has the right idea for the match up when he said to push us to the edge of the stage. Keep faking us out and making us retreat little by little. Once we get to the edge, you've got an advantage in that we can't wall your aerials out anymore. If you manage to land a d-air at any time, make sure Nana dies. I suggest you all go practice fighting level 3 ICs CPUs to just separate and kill Nana repeatedly. You'll learn the way she recovers and ways to combo/kill her. I just feel like you guys have to work so hard to land a d-air or n-air.

On our side, upwards tilted f-tilt beats his aerial and ground approaches outside of run -> shield and run -> sidestep.
D-tilt is an effective gimp tool if you catch him without his bike.
Ummmmmmm,
U-air isn't as effective in this match up as it is in others because he's faster in the air than we are on the ground (I think, it's close regardless) AND he can change directions quickly.
We can solo cg Wario to like 80% ish IIRC. We have to land the grab early for that.
I cannot stress how good n-air is in this MU. N-air is retardedly good.

For kill moves, our normal ones apply.


And for God's sake, don't N-air into dash grab and get wafted. -.-

 

[-LzR-]

If I had to throw in a ratio, I would say +1 for Icies. Everything Wario does is just more riskier and harder than what Icies do but both can still cover each others bull**** pretty well I guess. I am really bad at the MU and I honestly need more practice so all I say comes from theorycrafting.

 

[Anragon]

I don't have any experience of ICs but I can say it's not in Wario's favour.

 

[Pwneroni]

Landing a poke is just the start. Wario can follow up his hits really well, and if you have the stomach for some risk you can pressure ICs after you land a hit. A Dair hit can lead into a Nair or Uair, which will possibly separate the climbers and allow you to get some good damage in. Wario can use momentum really well in this matchup once he gets in on the ICs defense, and that is really where he shines.

ICs have really good defense, for sure. If you can get past it, you will find their weakness. It's really interesting to see a few IC players add their input, but from my past experience in the matchup it is even. I'll change my ratio to +0 Wario/ICs.

 

[xzx]

Jebu: +1
xzx: -1
Croi: +1
FreESAM: -2
TheSaintKai: -1
TheReflexWonder: 0
Lord Chair: -1
Ruinn: 0
Pwneroni: 0
Iridescent: -1
Iota: 0
BPx: -1
Labernash: -1
LzR: -1
Anragon: +1 > X

MU ratio sum: -1 (so far...)

 

[Dabuz]

Wario wins this MU if he doesn't get grabbed, ICs win this MU if they lands grabs. 3/4 for both sides.

 

[Attila_]

wario has the best anti-grab game of any character.

i don't see how this mu is in ics favor...

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

ICs deals more safe damage than Wario...we don't need a grab to win. The threat of the grab is just as good as the actual grab.

 

[Player-1]

wario wins +2

 

[Pwneroni]

To grab... or not to grab? That is the question, mates.

 

[Croi]

Going by the v2 MU chart, if Ike goes -1 with ICs then no way in **** does Wario go -2.

I know they're two different characters and its two different metagames but come on.

 

[DeLux]

I think Ike is closer to -2. I also think the MU chart is wrong

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[-LzR-]

Though Wario maybe the best in overall avoiding the grabs, ICs are blessed with a surprisingly high grabrange that makes it much harder for Wario to safely do anything without the risk of getting grabbed.

 

[xzx]

wario wins +2

Motivation? xD

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@Reflex You pretend as if ICs need a grab to win. The point of Ice Climbers in general are to either scare the opponent so much that we time them out or force them to make 1 mistake, gain a huge lead by grabbing them, and then force them to approach for the rest of the game (or play way too cautiously to ever come close to regaining the lead so we time them out).

From the beginning of the match Wario is in a disadvantageous position because we are way more threatening at every % than you are. Tires don't really do anything because we have 2 of them and air dodges. Yeah, doesn't do much...

Keeping your bike on-stage is actually terrible since you can't be as mobile in the air and we definitely WILL catch you if you can't do it.

Punishing nana? What moves do you have that will separate? Dair? Pivot grab...like...that's about it.

@Lord Chair The thing is we have BETTER pokes than you do. Our pokes do more damage, are safer, and we have more consistent projectiles.

Much of Wario's gameplan in general is to bait and wait for opportunities. Perfect play isn't a thing, though I acknowledge that getting a character down to a science definitely minimizes the effect of human error. That said, as his game revolves around safe poking, his role serves him well against the ICs player's gameplan, as Ice Climbers aren't as good at walling him out as Marth or Peach. "Fear of the chaingrab" is greatly reduced in his match compared to others because Wario has multiple effective moves that don't require him to put himself at risk of getting grabbed.

If you hit our shield with a tire in our hand (we'll be on a platform, obviously), we get a glide toss down -> U-Air/Waft/F-Smash/grab, depending on where you are afterward. It gives us a safe option to counter Squall Hammer and makes Blizzard wall useless. It can cause gimps against either of Ice Climbers' recovery options. We can also fullhop Z-Drop a tire into fastfall aerial. It's not safe from general retaliation, but it does make an offensive approach pretty safe from the chaingrab. It's really easy to get tires out against Ice Climbers, and (as far as I know) Ice Climbers can't do anything especially useful with tires. I'd say it's a pretty useful thing in this matchup; there are practical options in multiple places.

Even if you tag Wario with a U-Air here and there, it's not fast enough to be a major threat to us charging our Waft, and the benefit of the tires outweighs it, I feel. Ice Climbers have trouble killing characters who stay off the ground, so I'll take your pokes here and there in exchange for one or two separations that can and will probably neuter your stock.

D-Air, U-Air, N-Air, and Waft all have solid potential in separating them, and even barring that, Wario can apply pressure really well whenever he lands one of these moves, which helps a lot in attempts to separate.

Ice Climbers' projectiles are awful against Wario. We're not going to be challenging you in any position that allows you to use them well, and oftentimes, they're not even particularly safe options for Ice Climbers. Either way, this match-up isn't huge on projectiles. We're not matching moves pound-for-pound. We are trying to see how each character breaks through the others' tactics.

Though Wario maybe the best in overall avoiding the grabs, ICs are blessed with a surprisingly high grabrange that makes it much harder for Wario to safely do anything without the risk of getting grabbed.

edit: pivot grabs don't beat FH rising aerials, they effectively cost you stage control with minimal chances of reward, there is no reason for wario to commit to things that lose to pivot grab

I'm okay with switching to a 0 ratio; that's fair to say. However, I really don't feel that Ice Climbers have a noticeable advantage here. Wario is pretty well-suited to getting around Ice Climbers' stuff.

 

[Anragon]

After doing some matches, I'll say it's 50-50.

Just get that lead and Air Camp all days. ICs' projectiles are definitely not a threat, why ? Because we can Bike the ice blocks and hit you after. B-down just asks to avoided with our mobility.

F-air and N-air when full hopped are excellent and really safe on shield. D-air souldn't be used to approach but near the edge and to punish landings.

The only thing to watch is grabs, which are predictable, and aerials (these ones are more threatening than grabs imo, due to our lack of range).

If Nana is alone, rush her BUT don't forget to get Popo away first because he will try to punish you.

That's all I have to say but again, I've just done a few matches just to have a better idea of the MU. I may be wrong.

 

[-LzR-]

Do not underestimate Ice Blocks. They are primarily used to force reactions and control stage. With them we can control where you cannot land. It matters quite a lot actually, but still less in this MU obviously.
How do you guys deal with Blizzards? Do you simply wait and not commit or do you approach from above or cross up? I can't think of anything safe Wario could do except retreat. We have way too many options here and it gives us a kind of a wall, though it's laggy.

 

[xzx]

Jebu: +1
xzx: -1
Croi: +1
FreESAM: -2
TheSaintKai: -1
TheReflexWonder: 0
Lord Chair: -1
Ruinn: 0
Pwneroni: 0
Iridescent: -1
Iota: 0
BPx: -1
Labernash: -1
LzR: -1
Anragon: 0

Blizzard obviously leads to a grab (if it is desynched), but it isn't a threat otherwise. Primarly, I wouldn't approach a blizzarding IC in the first place, but otherwise I would have used the bike (driving it towards ICs) since blizzard is a "cutting" projectile who can't stun Wario on the bike, and mash through them.

Bike really runs over ICs and their blizzard. Therefore I would have gone for Nana or Popo (depending on who is easiest to prey). That's why I love the bike.