Weekly Matchup Discussion: Donkey Kong. (MT linked)

[Coffee™]

We were currently doing DK in the matchup thread so we'll continue with it here in this thread that will be linked to the master thread, hence the title (MT linked).

Anyway lets get on to the matchup.

Donkey Kong



Pros and Cons courtesy of the DK Boards ^_^

[B][COLOR="DarkOrange"]Pros[/COLOR][/B]

Has awesome killing potential.
Does good damage
Down B covers lots of OKI options
Fully charged DK Punch forces opponent to play differently
High Throw damage
Back Throw can kill if not diminished. 
Three Spikes
Three Super Armors moves
Typically lives to high percentages

[B][COLOR="DarkOrange"]Cons[/COLOR][/B]

Big hit-box means he is easy for most to combo.
He is still slow to leave the ground, and has some laggy moves.
DK’s recovery can become predictable.
DK gets ZONED hard.

Discuss!!!

 

[i1337]

ok, i think its 50/50

arrow spam ***** dk, and and forces you to approach through the air or just perfect shield each arrow until you get to him. it also makes dk turn around, and this is really bad if you are approaching with short hop bair (his best approach).

dk outranges and overpowers pit by a lot though, so once you get up to him it really isnt that hard (for dk). obviously dk is very heavy, and pit already has killing problems

 

[Coffee™]

ok, i think its 50/50

arrow spam ***** dk, and and forces you to approach through the air or just perfect shield each arrow until you get to him. it also makes dk turn around, and this is really bad if you are approaching with short hop bair (his best approach).

dk outranges and overpowers pit by a lot though, so once you get up to him it really isnt that hard (for dk). obviously dk is very heavy, and pit already has killing problems

Despite the direct killing problems, DK is easily gimped as his recovery is predictable and Pits Arrows and Mirror Shield can easily control his jumps and reflect his Up B respectively which could prove extremely problematic if a pit gets DK off the edge. Pit also has a forward grab chain grab against DK, which when the damage is starting to get high can be linked into a down grab to Up air at which time the damage should be in the high fifties which could also prove to be quite the annoyance in the earlier part of the match.

 

[Apollo317]

Pit ***** DK worse than anyone else. It is his best matchup.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Copied my post from the other thread...

DK is somewhat difficult and then sometimes he isnt. Pit's F-throw Chaingrab works well against DK, for one, maybe at least 3 F-throws if you are quick enough, maybe 4 or 5 Max before getting to the 40% line.

A DK that spams B-airs can be hard to approach because of the range, similar to a D3 spamming his B-air, without the Multiple jumps part. Shooting arrows at that point is one of your best options on that point.

DK does hate arrows just like many chars without Projectile defense do. An arrow can mess up a DK charging up his Punch.

You know about DK's grab thing, when he carries you? I still have that feeling to say "Let me go!" However, when he does carry you, hold the control stick either up or down to quickly break free of it without mashing buttons or beating up your controller. You can still press buttons while Holding the control stick Up or Down to further help you break free. Yes, I still have that "Let me go!" Feeling, because carrying a young angelic boy it makes him have fear
You can test it yourself and see the difference.

Pit's Mirror Shield works really well against DK's recovery, and since DK gots limited recovery options like Ike and Link, it's easy to guess when DK is going to use his recovery. Arrows are helpful in gimping DK or setting him up for a Mirror Shield reverse.
If you want to pursue him with F-airs, B-airs, or something, be careful not to get hit by F-air, D-air, U-air, or Side-B, and 3 of them moves are spikes.

Though Pit can combo a DK quite well, DK is very much a threat to Pit in terms of range. DK gots power and range in many of his moves. Because of this, I would not approach a DK from directly above. Gliding somewhat horizontally from DK's position is Okay, if the DK doesnt consider using his long ranged B-air. As C.F said, all smashes kill, and all of DK's spikes are lethal.
D-tilt can make Pit trip, and can set up trouble for us as well, especially with its range. In fact, let's just say that all of DK's moves got range, well, except the Side-B.

While DK's range and somewhat good speed (compared to other heavy chars) can trouble Pit, the fact that Pit can gimp DK really well with arrows, Mirror Shield, or even a chain of F-airs or B-airs (That doesn't happen that often to me) as well as being able to chaingrab the big ape really well gives Pit a decent advantage. But still, keep in mind of DK's great range advantage over Pit. This also discourages me from using Angel Ring against him.


*Added on*
Note: DK slightly runs faster than Pit.
I do recall DK's Up-B (when used on the ground) and Giant Punch having super armor frames somewhere within the move. The same goes for Pit's Mirror Shield (when used on the ground) right before the "ping" sound.

In here I will say it's about even, a 50-50.
DK gots great range, Power, and about 3 spikes. He is quicker compared to other heavyweights. B-airs and other quick long ranged attacks trouble Pit when approaching.
DK could gimp a Pit somewhat easily with B-airs or a spike, and the B-air can stop his gliding in his tracks.
B-air is like DK's best weapon against Pit, and not just because of the range... It comes out fast, and is spammable. The pressure is similar to that of a B-air spamming D3, minus multiple jumps.

Pit, however, gots his projectile to screw up DK when charging his punch, and can also be used against him while he tries to recover. Pit does pretty well when DK tries to recover. He can Mirror Shield DK's Up-B for kills, use a chain of F-airs or B-airs (doesnt happen often), simply shoot arrows at him, and DK's predictable recovery helps Pit in this situation for more precision.
So both of them are good at gimping the other.

Pit also has the F-throw chaingrab as mentioned before.
Pit can perform some possible combos, and since DK is big and heavy, it's very possible to deliver a chain of attacks to build up damage.

-To me, It's DK's Range, Power, spikes, and good speed, against Pit's minor Chaingrab, Projectile, Combo possibilities, gimping options, and Mirror Shield.

-I personally think that DK and Pit are related, the fact that both of them are underestimated characters, but both of them are actually really good IMO.

So yea, I really do think it's even. Give it a 50-50. What do you guys think?

And DK, if you carry me again, I will most likely yell out, "Let me go!" (Scared of getting grabbed)

 

[Veggi]

I don't have much experience with Pit, but DK can ftilt Pit's arrows. It's not as easy to do as other projectile characters because Pit's arrows just look like a big blue line across my screen so although smacking away his arrows with big monkey arms is possible I prefer to just jump over them as fast as I can because bair approach is too hard for me against Pit which is bad because I like to approach with bair. So I just try to land near him where he can't arrow me to death and hope for the best.

I don't know anything about anti-edgeguarding as DK so I'll just skip it. Although Mirror Shield sounds scary.

Edgeguarding Pit I just prefer to bair until he uses his up-b and then try to knock him out of it with another bair (real exciting huh?) Against Pit's forward b whenever I get the chance I just try to Giant Punch him out of it because I hate that move. No offense, but it feels good. Down throw to down b doesn't seem to work on Pit if he jumps. For this match-up I mostly try to outrange Pit.

I don't have much experience vs. Pit's but I hope I helped at all. I feel Pit has sort of an advantage other than range and KO ability. I'll go with 60-40 being in Pit's favor.

 

[CorruptFate]

Ill post more later on this but the match is in Pits favor because of the mirrior shield, DK's recovery isn't hard to see and all Pit has to to is get in the way. If Pit can just back throw or at least get DK off the edge he should be able to eat a jump with an arrow or at least get DK into a good spot for Pit to gimp is ^B with a mirrior. The only real problem is getting him into that spot as DK out reachs Pit and should be able to push him out of the way for a grab. But Pit can get past this with his Angelic Step or what ever the hell its called, allowing him to grab or smash or what ever to get DK off the edge.

 

[Luigi player]

Yeah well the arrows are REALLY annoying. DK will like never have the time to charge his giant punch except if he just KO'd you.

And yeah like everyone said if DK is near enough he will probably give Pit some trouble. Try to either stay away from him and spam some arrows, or be really close to him so you can use your fast attacks on him, because of DKs range, he wants to keep you a little bit away from him so you can't hit him, but even his tilts have a bit of ending lag, so try to be near him and get some fast attacks in or a grab.

 

[Coffee™]

Also,what do you guys think about stages in terms of bad stages and counterpicks?

 

[Undrdog]

It's strange how Pit's best matchups are against those higher then himself in the Tierlist. =P

Yeah DK gets handled VERY easily by Pit. DK has what it takes to be an amazing character but not against Pit.

Gamebreakers in this matchup.


~Most stages Pit never has to get near DK for very long.
~DK's recovery is one of the most predictable in the game and is easily nerfed by the Mirror Shield.
~Midair jumps are predictable while recovering and are easily eaten with arrows.
~Multi-hit attacks eat DK's shield to the point where he can be pulled out. (Auto-Canceled Nairs are good for this)

 

[kupo15]

Two things:
-Can be CGed from 0-40 (true CG)
-I don't believe Pit's Nair is auto canceled but yes it does work wonders against the heavies.

 

[Undrdog]

Used the wrong terminology. lol What's it called when you time it to end as you land? =P

 

[kupo15]

I believe its called "finishing the move before you land" but Pits Nair is very weird.

If you land while the hitboxes are out, you get a lot of landing lag.
But you also have this "aerial lag" after the last hitbox where you cant do anything in the air until he goes back to neutral. (no jumping or anything) BUT if you land during this "aerial lag" you get no lag.
The Nair cant be autocanceled or else we would never get landing lag from this move like ROBs nair. It almost seems as if the Nair has IASA with the ground because during the time of the "aerial lag" (no jumping) the move is "still going?" which means I should get landing lag during that time.....but you dont!?

I am

 

[Admiral Pit]

Aerial move cancelling or something or Air cancel for Short. It's to cancel landing lag, similar to what Wingdashing does to D-air.

 

[kupo15]

Please explain how you do this and your source because I think you made that up tbh. Sorry in adv if Im wrong

 

[Undrdog]

No I know what he means. It's only doable on moving platforms I believe.

However I mean what Kupo said in response to my previous post. You can really do a number on DK's shield with this. His Up-B is too slow to cancel your Nair. And if you chain a second one DK's shield becomes small enough to pull him out with either the second or even a third aerial. Plus proper mindgames make this very entertaining. ^_^

 

[Admiral Pit]

Well, maybe it's something similar to the N-air thing. I forgot -_-

 

[kupo15]

that moving platform thing is something different and can only be done at the beginning of the move and it has to be a dair. but anyway, back to the topic.

 

[Undrdog]

I think what you're referring to Admiral is preforming a Dair while just above a moving platform. It removes all landing lag and kinda sucks you to the platform.

lol Kupo beat me to it. NOW back to topic. Pit > DK as far as the matchup goes. Just watch out for his Bair Spammage. Easily countered by Arrow Spammage though.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I already said my part earlier in the posts up there, and that's pretty much sums up the basics. As for stages, I really dont know.

 

[Coffee™]

Well Pit does seem to have an overall advantage in the matchup even on neutral stages but there must be some stages Pit would have an even greater advantage or be at some form of disadvantage on, like Halberd or Delfino and Luigi's Mansion respectively.

I want to include a section in the final summary about the stages that might prove problematic or might increase Pits chances of winning, such as the ones I previously mentioned so if possible could we discuss those a bit as well along with the matchup. =/

 

[Undrdog]

Neutral Stages are typically best against DK. Flat open areas. However Pictochat I find to be a hoot to fight DK on.

 

[kupo15]

Dont forget to watch out for the Dtilt spam. Long reach, tripping, spammable, good move

 

[Admiral Pit]

Oh yea, I forgot that. I hate that. Poor Pit trips and then you get hit by something else, or maybe grabbed... I hate getting grabbed, or even worse, getting carried by DK! You already know what I'm going to say next about it...

 

[CorruptFate]

Lylat is a great stage to pick for this, as the moving pisses people off and add more trouble to the recovery pains that Pit can give DK.

 

[Crystanium]

IvanEva's match-up chart says that Donkey Kong has a slight advantage against Pit. This is probably due to Pit's lack of KO potential, as well as the fact that though Pit is middle-weight, that weight class makes little difference for Donkey Kong to KO Pit with any of his smash attacks. I also learned of a pseudo-chaingrab for Donkey Kong on my own, so Pit isn't the only one.

 

[Undrdog]

IvanEva's match-up chart has been a joke from day one. >_< I don't say things that harshly normally but it's true. If I remember correctly he has Pit and DDD as even matches. Or at least he did when I last looked at it. LOL

Anyway Pit has amazing KO potential, it's just that his attacks that do it have small hitboxes. Against DK and DDD Pit is a beast. Pit's best match-up is against DK plain and simple.

Also, in my opinion Pit's KO potential is greater then DK's in this match-up. Racking up damage should be easily at 5-1 in Pit's favor. Fairs and recovery gimping cause kills at an even lower percentage. And let's not forget that DK is easily grabbed. More so then most characters anyway. This means more chances for Pit to combat "Attack Decay" with grab attacks. ^_^

 

[Cyphus]

as a dk main, pit is just annoying **** to fight. arrow, arrow, arrow, arrow, arrow. grab-throw or random smash attack......arrow, arrow, arrow, arrow.
dk eats like 4 arrows everytime he tries to recover, or worse just gets edgeguarded to edgehogged.
its nowhere near impossible, i gave you the short story of it, but its deffinately in pit's advantage. they control the matchfrom beginning to end with arrows. It feels like i'm being cheated the whole game.

 

[Crystanium]

Anyway Pit has amazing KO potential, it's just that his attacks that do it have small hitboxes.

His only best attack to KO his opponent is his f-smash. You could get a b-air or gl-air in, which can KO earlier, but it's not difficult to see his gl-air coming in. To quote SmashWiki, "[Pit's] close range game is hampered by low KO power and subpar range."

Against DK and DDD Pit is a beast. Pit's best match-up is against DK plain and simple.

Please explain. I use Pit and Donkey Kong as alternative characters.

Also, in my opinion Pit's KO potential is greater then DK's in this match-up.

I honestly don't know how you've come up with that opinion. Donkey Kong has his Giant Punch, f-smash, d-smash, u-smash, d-air, u-air, and b-air. All of these can KO Donkey Kong's opponent easily.

Racking up damage should be easily at 5-1 in Pit's favor. Fairs and recovery gimping cause kills at an even lower percentage. And let's not forget that DK is easily grabbed. More so then most characters anyway. This means more chances for Pit to combat "Attack Decay" with grab attacks. ^_^

Racking up damage with Donkey Kong isn't that difficult, either, especially since Donkey Kong can KO Pit at low percent damage as well. Pit can use his pseudo-chaingrab. Donkey Kong can do that as well.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This matchup already looks problematic for DK since Arrows not only are spammable and good for dealing damage against big targets like DK, they will hinder him from B-air approaching by hitting him and turning him around.

To give DK more problems, his recovery is onetracked, which is something Pit can spam at all day.

While DK may have more range than Pit, he isn't very disjointed on attacks, so if you keep yourself well spaced, it's very possible to hit him in his hand/foot as he tries to attack you. Just beware I think he can hit through things like rapid jabs with his F-smash.

Anyhow, as for DK's KO potential, it's pretty bad outside of his D-smash. His D-smash is very good since it can hit people when used out of shield. Everything else he does sucks. F-smash is too slow to be reliable. Giant Punch is also too slow (don't believe me? Fully charged Giant Punch comes out like a frame slower than G&W's F-smash, which is also a pretty slow kill move) U-smash has ROB problems. F-air and D-air are slow and laggy. B-air rarely kills. U-air is easy to see coming.

 

[Undrdog]

Dryn it's kinda hard to explain. To me it's like trying to explain why cotton is soft. If I lose one stock against any DK I become immediately depressed. With proper DI, Pit can survive most of DK's kill moves to around 170%. Unless DK grabs Pit often and racks up some grab-hits that percentage gets higher and higher. While Pit on the other hand is capable of regaining his knock-back through easy grabs against DK.

So long as you're not afraid to fight a smart fight and turn DK into a pincushion... Yeah this isn't a contest. The only attack from DK that concerns me is the Uair. Pit's not the greatest when it comes to guarding himself from beneath. And DIing the Uair is sorta difficult.

And all of this isn't even taking into account that DK's recovery is SO easy to gimp.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Dont exaggerate the 170% thing. We all love our angel, but he is estimated to go down at about 100% depending on where he is.
But we still have a small advantage just remember that.

 

[Coffee™]

Dont exaggerate the 170% thing. We all love our angel, but he is estimated to go down at about 100% depending on where he is.
But we still have a small advantage just remember that.

You have to take good DI along with the use of an Aerial into consideration, it may be possible to live around 170% if you DI properly depending on where you are on the stage when you are hit.

 

[Admiral Pit]

And the move that we get hit from is Degraded, isnt it? Explain this thing to me a bit more.

 

[Crystanium]

This matchup already looks problematic for DK since Arrows not only are spammable and good for dealing damage against big targets like DK, they will hinder him from B-air approaching by hitting him and turning him around.

To give DK more problems, his recovery is onetracked, which is something Pit can spam at all day.

While DK may have more range than Pit, he isn't very disjointed on attacks, so if you keep yourself well spaced, it's very possible to hit him in his hand/foot as he tries to attack you. Just beware I think he can hit through things like rapid jabs with his F-smash.

Anyhow, as for DK's KO potential, it's pretty bad outside of his D-smash. His D-smash is very good since it can hit people when used out of shield. Everything else he does sucks. F-smash is too slow to be reliable. Giant Punch is also too slow (don't believe me? Fully charged Giant Punch comes out like a frame slower than G&W's F-smash, which is also a pretty slow kill move) U-smash has ROB problems. F-air and D-air are slow and laggy. B-air rarely kills. U-air is easy to see coming.

Please don't underestimate Donkey Kong unless you know what you're talking about. If you have him as an alternative character and know how he works, or if you have come across very good Donkey Kong players, then feel free to express what you wish to say. My Donkey Kong is raw, not refined. That is to say, the style I play with Donkey Kong without any advanced techniques. As I like to say, "I **** with the ape." Yes, I bring out this big guy if I have trouble against my opponent with Samus or Pit, and the ironic thing is that I don't play Donkey Kong as much as I do Samus or Pit, and I still KO my opponents with ease and win.

You think Donkey Kong's KO potential is terrible, but the thing is, I've hit people a number of times with f-smash and have KO'd them. Toon Link shot an arrow at me when I was playing as Donkey Kong, and before he could even hit me with it, I used my f-smash and gave him 21% damage. I have used the Giant Punch properly and KO'd my opponents. What does that mean? You use your Forward+B before using your Giant Punch. What is more, Donkey Kong's Forward+B can break shields with two strikes. Maybe I should send you a video of my Donkey Kong KO'ing three opponents on the stage in a free-for-all match consecutively.

I think you're all talk, my friend. Compared between the two characters, Donkey Kong's KO potential beats Pit's. And just to let you know, KO potential doesn't mean using an attack where you have KO'd your opponent, lest Palutena's Arrow is an attack that has KO pontential in and of itself. Nor is Pit's u-air, just for another example, though it can KO. It's an attack that is used for the intent of KO'ing, even though it can be used as an attack. For example, Samus' Charge Shot is meant for KO'ing, but it doesn't mean that the Samus user cannot use the attack to increase his or her opponent's damage percent. So yeah.

With proper DI, Pit can survive most of DK's kill moves to around 170%.

I'm sorry, UndrDog. I love you for being an inspiration to me when it comes to using Pit, but the last time I spoke with a fellow who mained Link and said that he can last up to 200% against Samus, I felt the need for him to prove this to me, though he had me do his homework for him. When I tested this out, Link only lasted up to a +160% range. If you may show me which attacks that you are talking about where you can last up to 170% as Pit, I will agree with you. I love both Pit and Donkey Kong, because they are my alternative characters. I would just like to see the proof.

And yes, u-air is scary. ^_^ (I'm glad to see you around here on the forums again, UndrDog!)

 

[Undrdog]

Well I'm only taking the D-Smash and Bair into consideration. I've never been hit by the other attacks as far as I can remember. They're too slow and easily Powershielded no one who knows my style would dare try any other Smash or a non-aerial Wind-Up Punch. However funny story I Wing Shoved a DK off the edge after an Aerial Wind-Up Punch. ^_^

 

[Coffee™]

And the move that we get hit from is Degraded, isnt it? Explain this thing to me a bit more.

The move doesn't have to be degraded. It has been proven in this thread http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192522 that aerials can help with knockback and combined with proper DI it increases your chances of surviving an attack that might otherwise kill you. As Dryn said, Pit living up to 170% seems a bit awkward given Pit's weight so I don't know if Undr tested it or not but you could see Pit surviving some fairly strong attacks with the apprioate DI/aerial.

 

[Undrdog]

Let me just clarify this wasn't tested. It's just what I remember from when I play against DK. I fight DKs rather often.

 

[Doctor X]

I did some testing in training mode which negates move degeneration. To ensure the same spacing, I have Pit roll up to the edge, then DK (with his punch already charged) rolls to the edge, pushing Pit slightly away from the edge. Pit then holds his shield until it breaks so he can hold his control stick to perfectly execute whatever DI you want to test without affecting the spacing.

From the opposite side of FD, the absolute highest I could get Pit to survive the punch at is 90%. This means that, regardless of DI or position on the stage, Pit can *never* survive a giant punch at above 90%. Assuming the DK is smart and uses it closer to the stage boundary he's putting you into, that number will be drastically lower.

Also remember that the giant punch has superarmor. It cannot be interrupted once it's started. It can only be blocked or dodged. Again, assuming the DK player is smart, he will never throw it when you're prepared to block or dodge it. He'll use it when you're doing your own attack, or getting ready to land since landing cancels airdodges. This makes it a guaranteed hit-- guaranteed, and it will absolutely kill Pit before 170%.

As for arrow spam, these can be powershielded as DK advances, like noted earlier, but DK being forced to turn around is mostly inconsequential since he can RAR to his backair from quite far beyond any of Pit's attack ranges, plus it has more priority than any of Pit's attacks to boot. Pit's only real option there is defense-- shield, dodge, or run away. If you dodge, he can time almost any of his attacks to punish it, and if you run away, he can chase you. DK's running speed is only very slightly above Pit's, but his air speed and range are much greater. Plus even if he doesn't catch you, eventually you reach the edge and are forced to go off the stage or over him where his bair can beat you.

As for shielding, it's often your best option, but DK outranges Pit in almost every situation possible and his attacks have very little lag if done properly, so if your opponent has proper spacing shielding isn't really going to put you at any real advantage, even if you powershield.

Don't get me wrong... despite all this, I'd still give this one 60:40 in favor of Pit due to chaingrabs, gimps, and how easy a target DK is in the air. But someone needs to speak for DK's strengths. He can be a very real threat, and I certainly wouldn't consider him Pit's best matchup. Maybe among the characters higher on the tier list, but I'd much rather face someone that's actually terrible like Link or Falcon. Even Ness, who I think is a bit shortchanged by the tiers, is a much easier matchup than DK. He's certainly much easier to gimp.

 

[Coffee™]

From the opposite side of FD, the absolute highest I could get Pit to survive the punch at is 90%. This means that, regardless of DI or position on the stage, Pit can *never* survive a giant punch at above 90%. Assuming the DK is smart and uses it closer to the stage boundary he's putting you into, that number will be drastically lower.

Undr did say that he only took D-Smash and Bair into consideration with his estimate though.