What is something you just... don’t get about Super Smash Bros?

[Uffe]

Why people still care about Melee.

"What? No wavedashing, L-cancelling, infinites, or edgehogging? Not interested. I can't wait for someone to mod Smash Ultimate, so we can make Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Melee Edition."

 

[MacSmitty]

1. Why do some characters like Mario, Sonic, and some others have recycled voice clips while others get some with every new installment.
2. Recycled Victory themes. Sonic's is completely outdated and needs to be changed. Why not go the route like they did with Bowser, Rosalina, Dark Pit, Meta Knight and the rest and give characters their unique victory theme?
3. Ultimate's Lack of New stages. As of this typing there are only 8 new stages and 3 of those are the Battlefields and Final Destination.
4. General Clone like stuff. I don't feel like echo fighters should've been a thing. Heck I would've waited for a longer period of time if it meant that some of the characters would be less cloney.

Will add more sometime later.

 

[Just a random scrub]

"They don't take much development time"

How the hell is this a dumb argument? It's completely correct.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Why does sheik still use her unused TP design as her default?

Just bring back her OOT as her default.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Why does sheik still use her unused TP design as her default?

Just bring back her OOT as her default.

It's hotter.

 

[Deleted member]

Why does sheik still use her unused TP design as her default?

Just bring back her OOT as her default.

Actually, the TP design was replaced by one inspired by Link's Sheikah outfit from BotW.

 

[Sammerbro44]

How quickly a lot of people (myself included) changed their viewpoints on clones (Echo Fighters ). I just find it shocking how quickly people were so accepting (or at least accommodating) towards the idea of echo fighters when before, a lot of them (again, myself included) were so against having characters with the same move sets.

 

[Arrei]

- Throw on one more for Bowser and DK's weird animal voices here. They've long since settled on a defined identity for them and their voices in their home series, but they just go on being an angry dragon and gorilla here.
- I don't get why only some characters get to wall-jump, and I especially don't get how they decide who gets the ability. Young Link and Tink can do it but adult Link can't when all of them have little reason to be able, Little "ain't no air fighter" Mac gets to do it but Luigi can't despite canonically sharing Mario's acrobatics, a literal DOG can even do it with Duck Hunt's inclusion... Just let everybody wall-jump so walled stages can offer everyone equal opportunities!

 

[FirestormNeos]

Okay, so they wanna declone Roy? Why keep the Side-B, then? It's probably the most Marth-y move in Roy's kit.

I’m confused as to why they are fighting and trying to kill each other, why can’t they all just get along.

Because something's gone wrong in the happy-go-lucky world of Nintendo.

I always considered Super Smash Bros. to be more akin to Boxing, where although the characters are almost excessively violent towards eachother, there's no hard feelings (with the exception of and ) and everyone goes out for other social activities together (I'd say drinking, but that'd probably only be between the older characters, like , , , ...)

Why my girl Zelda gotta be forgotten in the tr4sh realm while her alter ago is one of the best characters in the game? Why would you put in so much work on Sheik when the real Zelda isnt even relevant in Smash. Doesn't make sense to me. that's is probably one of the only things that get under my skin and that I dont understand.

- Throw on one more for Bowser and DK's weird animal voices here. They've long since settled on a defined identity for them and their voices in their home series, but they just go on being an angry dragon and gorilla here.
- I don't get why only some characters get to wall-jump, and I especially don't get how they decide who gets the ability. Young Link and Tink can do it but adult Link can't when all of them have little reason to be able, Little "ain't no air fighter" Mac gets to do it but Luigi can't despite canonically sharing Mario's acrobatics, a literal DOG can even do it with Duck Hunt's inclusion... Just let everybody wall-jump so walled stages can offer everyone equal opportunities!

Wait a minute... Toon Link, Little Mac and Duck Hunt can wall-jump?!

 

[Jyl]

How the hell is this a dumb argument? It's completely correct.

It's factually correct, I never said it was incorrect.
But using it to justifying that adding clones are a great decision? I only said I saw some people who uses that reason to defend clones.
I'm just someone who prefers adding like 2 or 3 original characters than padding the roster with 10 clones.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Only fans of the clone/semi clone's respective series are ok with it.

They try to make it sound like it was a good idea and beneficial for Smash.

They're wrong.

How are clones additions bad to the roster? Many other fighting games do clone fighters as well, they serve a purpose by giving you an option to play as X character with a slightly modified moveset.

Name one reason why they are harmful to the game as you claim. You'd be silly for thinking other people are wrong and not even being able to come up with an argument of your own to prove this notion

: Happy go lucky joyful individual outside of Smash even when he's fighting his arch nemesis. In Smash he's seeing the red mist at ALL TIMES.
: Pure passive Princess who is friends to all. In Smash up until Ultimate she's forcefully using her subjects as meatshields and sexually using her hips and *** to attack.
: Scaredy cat with bad luck that's played for laughs. In Smash he's an absolute weirdo who can defy the laws of physics by shooting himself as a missle, that weird as **** banana plank taunt that was his Sm4sh render(ruining his amiibo forever) and had the Negative Zone as a Final Smash in Brawl as if he's part of an occult dark arts group.
: Mother to the Lumas, protector and carer. In Smash she seems to control them to fight her enemies for her whilst keeping her distance.
: See Mario but in a doctors coat.


Like, that's not very accurate to the character at all.

There are things called adaption expansion, adaptational badass and gameplay/story segregation. This is a given considering that they are adapting characters from different genres into a fighting game, so Mario is going to be aggressive, Luigi is going to...uh, defy gravity (unlike the completely down-to-Earth Super Mario series.) and Peach and Rosalina need to be able to fight. They can't have someone like Peach be helpless because it wouldn't fun nor functional. I thought stuff like this would be obvious.

: Depending on the Smash game depends on how animalistic he is. Bowser's capable of thought in his own series whilst here he's sometimes just a wild savage animal.

So Beast from Xmen, Smaug the dragon from The Hobbit and Aslan from the Narnia Chronicles shouldn't be allowed to have an animalistic side? They are capable of thought and speech after all, but I don't know why we are pretending that those kinds of animals shouldn't roar now. And it's not like Bowser doesn't look the part anyways.

The fact that we've had the animalistic voices of Bowser and Donkey Kong since Brawl. Why.

They are making animals sound like animals. Have you guys even heard monkeys and gorillas? The fact that people even ask themselves why is baffling.

It's factually correct, I never said it was incorrect.
But using it to justifying that adding clones are a great decision? I only said I saw some people who uses that reason to defend clones.
I'm just someone who prefers adding like 2 or 3 original characters than padding the roster with 10 clones.

If it's correct, then it isn't ridiculous. Ridiculous would be trying to reach or strawman to make a point. By calling it that, you are desperately trying to undermine the argument to make the other person look bad while simultaneously disguising your inability to properly refute it.
Adding to that, clones aren't substitutes for unique characters as they are added out of convenience probably during the devs' downtime. The original movesets are decided before development starts anyways, so clones and echos are just extra additions they bring up to make someone who wouldn't be in otherwise playable and give a player the option to use their favorite avatar with a modified moveset. Taking away ten clones is not going to magically translate into having two or three newcomers. Now THAT would be an objectively dumb thing to say.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

How are clones additions bad to the roster? Many other fighting games do clone fighters as well, they serve a purpose by giving you an option to play as X character with a slightly modified moveset.

Name one reason why they are harmful to the game as you claim. You'd be silly for thinking other people are wrong and not even being able to come up with an argument of your own to prove this notion

"Many other fighting games." We're talking about Smash. Since smash doesn't create its own characters and instead pulls from already existing ones, That means there's an enormous pool of popular characters to choose from. An enormous pool also means lots of unique movesets and additions. "Slightly modified" movesets don't serve a greater purpose than trying to proliferate their respective series' roster. "Slightly modified" movesets are nothing new and I'd rather have unique movesets come in to bring new playstyles and new perspectives.
When Dark pit was added, KI fans defended him, saying he was a good choice. The argument was that he was the best possible villain choice since he acted as a FOIL characters to Pit. The counter argument was that there were plenty of other antagonists to choose from that weren't a clone moveset of Pit. The same story basically applies for Lucina.
The reason clones are so harmful to Smash is they basically say, "Here's a slight aesthetic difference to a fighter you already have, and it's going to take up an entire fighter slot." Again, I would rather have a new way of fighting and a new perspective on matchups and playstyles than slight cosmetic differences. And I know many people agree with me on this. Clones just don't add as much to the game as a completely original fighter would.

 

[YoshiandToad]

There are things called adaption expansion, adaptational badass and gameplay/story segregation. This is a given considering that they are adapting characters from different genres into a fighting game, so Mario is going to be aggressive, Luigi is going to...uh, defy gravity (unlike the completely down-to-Earth Super Mario series.) and Peach and Rosalina need to be able to fight. They can't have someone like Peach be helpless because it wouldn't fun nor functional. I thought stuff like this would be obvious.

So Beast from Xmen, Smaug the dragon from The Hobbit and Aslan from the Narnia Chronicles shouldn't be allowed to have an animalistic side? They are capable of thought and speech after all, but I don't know why we are pretending that those kinds of animals shouldn't roar now. And it's not like Bowser doesn't look the part anyways.

You say that like it HAS to be that way though. Like Mario HAS to be super aggressive?

Shulk's the opposite, if anything he's LESS aggressive than in his games.

Luigi doesn't have to be a weirdo oddball, simply upping his scaredy cat nature is fine(notice how I didn't mention the cat punch dash attack? That suits his personality fine since he's throwing punches with his eyes closed due to fear)

Peach and Rosalina can fight fine without needing to use their subjects. Peach could use anything from Super Princess Peach post Melee such as her vibe attacks or even Perry the Parasol, Rosalina could easily have used things like black holes and shifts with gravitational pulls or the star launchers and that'd have worked as well whilst keeping the same portrayal.

So no, it's not 'obvious' you could easily create a moveset for Luigi around him being unlucky and upping the nervousness he showcases in battle instead.

You can easily have Mario have the EXACT same moveset but without looking like he's stubbed his toe badly every single time. Merely raising his eyebrows up and having him smile once in a blue moon would simply capture his actual personality, and it's not like every character in Smash is angry 24/7. Villager looks positively elated. The Ice Climbers don't have furrowed brows. Yoshi looks happy go lucky as he should.

Bowser, DK and Diddy not having their canonical voices is just a weird choice of Sakurai. You don't hear Yoshi roaring like a T-Rex every time he opens his mouth, yet Diddy screeches like a real chimp. We gonna pretend Diddy is anymore realistic a monkey than Yoshi is a dinosaur now?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Taking away ten clones is not going to magically translate into having two or three newcomers. Now THAT would be an objectively dumb thing to say.

Clones take a non-zero amount of time to develop. Maybe you think one unique characters takes the same time as 100 clones, in which case, cutting every clone on the roster wouldn't allow for one more unique character. Other people think that number is far lower.

 

[Jyl]

Taking away ten clones is not going to magically translate into having two or three newcomers. Now THAT would be an objectively dumb thing to say.

This is well known at this point, but I'll say it anyway; There was a comment Sakurai made regarding Melee, he had a choice between adding one character with an original moveset versus the 5 clones we got in Melee. He went with the latter. In my previous post when I seemingly implied 2-3 unique=10 clones I was thinking of that incident.
Personally I'd rather have that one unique character for moveset variety than 5 clones. I don't know if I can seriously call it laziness on Sakurai's part, but I'm not a fan of roster padding with clones so to speak for the sake of bloating the roster.
Also, this may be unrelated, but you speak of having an option of using other avatar options for your favorite characters. That's fine. But when I see Alph as a simple alt skin while someone like Dark Pit gets an entire roster slot, would you call that fair?

 

[Jasper the Tourist]

I know it’s been stated many a time, but the freakin’ Marth clones and the choices that are made for Fire Emblem. I’m not even a Fire Emblem fan and even I know that characters like Lyn should have been in long ago and that Roy isn’t that popular. I could very well do without Roy, Lucina or Chrom, especially as long as they play like Marth.

Where did Luigi’s bizarre moves and animations come from?

Why did Ness steal his party’s moves rather than use his own?

As someone stated, why is Jigglypuff’s rest so wacky, and why no healing properties? And why didn’t they make sing actually be somewhat effective?

Why is Dr. Mario a separate character? Yeah, I know, different properties yadayada. I don’t care. I still don’t get why they thought this was a good idea. Mario and Doc are the same person and if the construction outfit and the wedding outfit are alts, the lab coat should be, too. Having ZS Samus as a separate character also bothers me. If she’s so effective without the power suit, what’s the point of having it to begin with? As you can tell, I don’t like it when characters who are the same people get a separate slot. Drives me nuts. The same could be said for the Zelda reps, but at least the Links are all different heroes (who should be referred to as Hero of Time, Winds and Wild respectively rather than “young” and “toon”) and the same could be argued for Zelda and Sheik.

The title “Smash Bros” is indeed bizarre and I wonder why they called it that.

5 games in and so far, no sign of Dixie Kong in any capacity

.

This is well known at this point, but I'll say it anyway; There was a comment Sakurai made regarding Melee, he had a choice between adding one character with an original moveset versus the 5 clones we got in Melee. He went with the latter. In my previous post when I seemingly implied 2-3 unique=10 clones I was thinking of that incident.
Personally I'd rather have that one unique character for moveset variety than 5 clones. I don't know if I can seriously call it laziness on Sakurai's part, but I'm not a fan of roster padding with clones so to speak for the sake of bloating the roster.
Also, this may be unrelated, but you speak of having an option of using other avatar options for your favorite characters. That's fine. But when I see Alph as a simple alt skin while someone like Dark Pit gets an entire roster slot, would you call that fair?

I agree with you. I would have axed Pichu, Doc, Young Link and Falco in order to get a completely unique and accurate Ganondorf.

 

[osby]

I know it’s been stated many a time, but the freakin’ Marth clones and the choices that are made for Fire Emblem. I’m not even a Fire Emblem fan and even I know that characters like Lyn should have been in long ago and that Roy isn’t that popular. I could very well do without Roy, Lucina or Chrom, especially as long as they play like Marth.

Cutting clones won't get you new characters. A lot of people like characters even if they are not unique, that's why echo concept became so popular.

Where did Luigi’s bizarre moves and animations come from?

Because he's kinda bizarre and Smash tends to exaggarate characters.

Why did Ness steal his party’s moves rather than use his own?

He didn't stole from them, they taught him to use offensive PSI, since he mainly uses healing and supporting skills and these couldn't translate well into Smash.

As someone stated, why is Jigglypuff’s rest so wacky, and why no healing properties? And why didn’t they make sing actually be somewhat effective?

She's not well balanced but the Rest mostly a joke.

Why is Dr. Mario a separate character? Yeah, I know, different properties yadayada. I don’t care. I still don’t get why they thought this was a good idea. Mario and Doc are the same person and if the construction outfit and the wedding outfit are alts, the lab coat should be, too. Having ZS Samus as a separate character also bothers me. If she’s so effective without the power suit, what’s the point of having it to begin with? As you can tell, I don’t like it when characters who are the same people get a separate slot. Drives me nuts. The same could be said for the Zelda reps, but at least the Links are all different heroes (who should be referred to as Hero of Time, Winds and Wild respectively rather than “young” and “toon”) and the same could be argued for Zelda and Sheik.

There wasn't alt costumes in Melee and when he returned in Smash 4, Sakurai understandably didn't want to remove his unique abilities. Dr. Mario has also his own series unlike Mario's costumes.

Having same character with differing movesets would be a problem if Smash has a story but it no longer has.

The title “Smash Bros” is indeed bizarre and I wonder why they called it that.

It's probably a Super Mario Bros reference.

5 games in and so far, no sign of Dixie Kong in any capacity

I know, and we get K.Rool instead.

I agree with you. I would have axed Pichu, Doc, Young Link and Falco in order to get a completely unique and accurate Ganondorf.

Again, cutting clones won't get you a unique character.

 

[Jasper the Tourist]

Cutting clones won't get you new characters. A lot of people like characters even if they are not unique, that's why echo concept became so popular.



Because he's kinda bizarre and Smash tends to exaggarate characters.



He didn't stole from them, they taught him to use offensive PSI, since he mainly uses healing and supporting skills and these couldn't translate well into Smash.



She's not well balanced but the Rest mostly a joke.



There wasn't alt costumes in Melee and when he returned in Smash 4, Sakurai understandably didn't want to remove his unique abilities. Dr. Mario has also his own series unlike Mario's costumes.

Having same character with differing movesets would be a problem if Smash has a story but it no longer has.



It's probably a Super Mario Bros reference.



I know, and we get K.Rool instead.



Again, cutting clones won't get you a unique character.

Yeah, I know cutting clones won’t get a unique character. How many times have I seen that nearly automated response on this forum? That wasn’t my point. The logic behind it doesn’t make sense to me in terms of the FE characters because there are so many clones of the same character, and some FE characters are pretty questionable picks, clone or not. In terms of the melee clones, I was agreeing with the other poster who referred to Sakurai stating that he had the choice to make one unique newcomer or 5 clones, and he chose 5 clones.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Cutting clones won't get you new characters.

Did you just ignore the posts on this page about this, or what?

 

[Just a random scrub]

Did you just ignore the posts on this page about this, or what?

Did you ignore the posts on this page about it? Sakurai has cleary gone on record to state echos =/= full characters.

Hell, even the people saying the Melee clones = 1 newcomer are mistaken. The real truth is, cutting all 6 Melee clones WOULDN'T have resulted in a fully unique character, according to Sakurai himself.

“If I could add one or two more characters, then [Wario] could have gotten in. Of all the characters I discarded, [he’s] ranked near the top.


However, even if I didn’t work on several clone characters he wouldn’t have gotten in.


Even if I deleted characters from before (Jigglypuff, Luigi) he wouldn’t have gotten in.


You might think it’s impossible that even if we delete one character in development that it couldn’t be replaced with another character….


I would have needed to get rid of both Marth and Roy or Mewtwo in order for Wario to get in[1]

So, All 6 of the Melee clones do NOT equal one fully unique fighter, we wouldn't have gotten **** if they weren't included. And the echos are far closer to their base than the Melee clones and take much less effort. So suggesting that the 5 echos we've seen so far would result in a fully unique newcomer is grossly untrue.

 

[SmashBro99]

How every time I call it a party game, people get offended. (Mostly Melee players that don't play the other games)

It's clearly a party and a fighting game, but seeing as how the fanbase is split between casual and competitive people get real mad real fast.

Plus, don't you have to turn items off and get rid of like 80% of the stages before it becomes that intense fighting game everyone thinks it is?

I'm a casual (the only real practice I get is For Glory, bleh) but I almost always play with the "competitive" moveset when playing with people irl.

I think all the crazy **** is fun once in awhile, at the end of the day it's too bad both camps are usually so for doing things one way and dismiss the other as wrong, kinda silly especially after all these years, it has gotten better at least.

 

[31fps]

I don't understand why Kirby still has only three fighters.
It's one of Nintendo's top 5 most popular IP's today.

 

[GunBlaze]

Why he thought removing the ability to keep momentum while jumping after dashing was a good idea.

As for Jyl

This is well known at this point, but I'll say it anyway; There was a comment Sakurai made regarding Melee, he had a choice between adding one character with an original moveset versus the 5 clones we got in Melee. He went with the latter. In my previous post when I seemingly implied 2-3 unique=10 clones I was thinking of that incident.

“If I could add one or two more characters, then [Wario] could have gotten in. Of all the characters I discarded, [he’s] ranked near the top.

However, even if I didn’t work on several clone characters he wouldn’t have gotten in.

Even if I deleted characters from before (Jigglypuff, Luigi) he wouldn’t have gotten in.

You might think it’s impossible that even if we delete one character in development that it couldn’t be replaced with another character….

I would have needed to get rid of both Marth and Roy or Mewtwo in order for Wario to get in"

From "Clone Characters in Smash Bros.: Truths and Misconceptions - Source Gaming"

 

[Opossum]

I'll never understand some Smash fans pushing for cuts and wanting less content.

 

[osby]

I just don't get why Smash fanbase so in love with "popular opinions equal objective facts" line of thought.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I know it’s been stated many a time, but the freakin’ Marth clones and the choices that are made for Fire Emblem. I’m not even a Fire Emblem fan and even I know that characters like Lyn should have been in long ago and that Roy isn’t that popular. I could very well do without Roy, Lucina or Chrom, especially as long as they play like Marth.

Where did Luigi’s bizarre moves and animations come from?

Why did Ness steal his party’s moves rather than use his own?

As someone stated, why is Jigglypuff’s rest so wacky, and why no healing properties? And why didn’t they make sing actually be somewhat effective?

Why is Dr. Mario a separate character? Yeah, I know, different properties yadayada. I don’t care. I still don’t get why they thought this was a good idea. Mario and Doc are the same person and if the construction outfit and the wedding outfit are alts, the lab coat should be, too. Having ZS Samus as a separate character also bothers me. If she’s so effective without the power suit, what’s the point of having it to begin with? As you can tell, I don’t like it when characters who are the same people get a separate slot. Drives me nuts. The same could be said for the Zelda reps, but at least the Links are all different heroes (who should be referred to as Hero of Time, Winds and Wild respectively rather than “young” and “toon”) and the same could be argued for Zelda and Sheik.

The title “Smash Bros” is indeed bizarre and I wonder why they called it that.

5 games in and so far, no sign of Dixie Kong in any capacity

.

I agree with you. I would have axed Pichu, Doc, Young Link and Falco in order to get a completely unique and accurate Ganondorf.

Why do so many people have a hate bone for Roy? Like I get it, people are tired of seeing the same movepool being recycled 3 times but since Smash 4 Roy is effectively a semi-clone, enough difference to stand as his own character, he has become to Marth, what Falco and Toon Link are to Fox and Link respectively.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

"Many other fighting games." We're talking about Smash. Since smash doesn't create its own characters and instead pulls from already existing ones, That means there's an enormous pool of popular characters to choose from. An enormous pool also means lots of unique movesets and additions. "Slightly modified" movesets don't serve a greater purpose than trying to proliferate their respective series' roster. "Slightly modified" movesets are nothing new and I'd rather have unique movesets come in to bring new playstyles and new perspectives.
When Dark pit was added, KI fans defended him, saying he was a good choice. The argument was that he was the best possible villain choice since he acted as a FOIL characters to Pit. The counter argument was that there were plenty of other antagonists to choose from that weren't a clone moveset of Pit. The same story basically applies for Lucina.
The reason clones are so harmful to Smash is they basically say, "Here's a slight aesthetic difference to a fighter you already have, and it's going to take up an entire fighter slot." Again, I would rather have a new way of fighting and a new perspective on matchups and playstyles than slight cosmetic differences. And I know many people agree with me on this. Clones just don't add as much to the game as a completely original fighter would.

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone would ignorantly say that clones take an entire fighter slot. And that's where you are wrong. You can dislike the idea of someone like Dark Pit being in, but don't think for a second that he or the echoes could have been replaced with anything else.
Those characters are simply copy and pasted from other existing ones, making their work simple to implement. Fine tuning attributes like animations, sound effects and skeleton bone data is unnecessary for the most part because that's all set and ready from the start.

Meanwhile, a professional-grade model for a unique character moveset that needs to be made from scratch, revised with their own rigs, offsets, texture-alignments and scaling, not to mention testing sessions to see if every single one of them works in-game without glitching out takes a lot of effort. I'm not saying it takes "forever" for a team of professionals, but in comparison it's already more effort by far than the clones. The alternative to not including a clone or an echo would result in them not being in the roster all, not being replaced by a unique newcomer.

Rosters tend to be decided prior to development, so Sakurai and his team have already decided from the start on which movesets they are going to be bringing in. It's not like a clone who is derived from someone else would suddenly prevent a new fighter from being in. They are just a convenient way to include characters that people may want to play as.

Smash is still one of many fighting games to incorporate clones regardless where they pull them from. I like how you initially tried to undermine people who are ok with them, as if trying to invalidate anything that others say on the subject except for those who agree with you. Players have their reasons of picking Ken over Ryu, Falco over Fox or Lucina over Marth beyond aesthetics, so who are you to say that that doesn't influence on playstyles or serves no purpose?
And that enormous pool of characters you mentioned is already being used; there is already a great variety of unique fighters. If there’s a small space to be filled, then clones can’t be all that bad, especially if there are newcomers aplenty already.

"And I know many people agree with me on this."

Sadly, you may indeed be correct, if only because ignorant people assume the work that went into X clone that could've been put into "someone else". People are unhappy because of their own lack of understanding of how game development works. And then those people go around and in their ignorance spread misconceptions and misinformation, thus explaining some of the posts in this thread.

You say that like it HAS to be that way though. Like Mario HAS to be super aggressive?

Shulk's the opposite, if anything he's LESS aggressive than in his games.

Luigi doesn't have to be a weirdo oddball, simply upping his scaredy cat nature is fine(notice how I didn't mention the cat punch dash attack? That suits his personality fine since he's throwing punches with his eyes closed due to fear)

Peach and Rosalina can fight fine without needing to use their subjects. Peach could use anything from Super Princess Peach post Melee such as her vibe attacks or even Perry the Parasol, Rosalina could easily have used things like black holes and shifts with gravitational pulls or the star launchers and that'd have worked as well whilst keeping the same portrayal.

So no, it's not 'obvious' you could easily create a moveset for Luigi around him being unlucky and upping the nervousness he showcases in battle instead.

You can easily have Mario have the EXACT same moveset but without looking like he's stubbed his toe badly every single time. Merely raising his eyebrows up and having him smile once in a blue moon would simply capture his actual personality, and it's not like every character in Smash is angry 24/7. Villager looks positively elated. The Ice Climbers don't have furrowed brows. Yoshi looks happy go lucky as he should.

Bowser, DK and Diddy not having their canonical voices is just a weird choice of Sakurai. You don't hear Yoshi roaring like a T-Rex every time he opens his mouth, yet Diddy screeches like a real chimp. We gonna pretend Diddy is anymore realistic a monkey than Yoshi is a dinosaur now?

This is a fighting game, of course someone like Mario is going to be aggressive, and he is someone who has been known to take competition seriously. He is not jumping around in a happy go lucky world adventuring but punching and kicking his rivals. The comparison with Villager doesn't fly because he is merely using his default expression from the AC games which in turn makes him look psychotic in Smash. Last time I checked, in Mario Odyssey, Mario isn't grinning himself silly nor laughing his ass off during his neutral stance. Ice Climbers look and sound positively angry when they attack.

With Luigi, he has always been this lovable coward/goofball, and Smash captures his personality just well.

And Rosa and Peach using elements of their games in their attacks are just examples of adaptation expansion where references from their games are given more functions than what they are originally intended for in an effort to suit a fighting game better. With Rosa they wanted to have a puppeteer fighter, so implementing Luma was a design choice to accomplish that whilst your suggestions sound generic. Peach is already using clubs and frying pans to try to beat me up anyways, so why is using Toad a no-no when they are supposed to protect her? You want her to play nice now?

And finally, the Yoshi comparison with Diddy and the others it's just stupid. You can make Diddy sound like a monkey and that wouldn't be out of place. On the other hand, you can take Yoshi and give him a roaring sound like the T-Rex from Jurassic Park and people are going to rightfully say that something doesn't feel right. Yoshi was originally implemented to serve as a friendly mount for Mario, he was visually designed to look non-threatening and cute. His sounds have to match this design.

You also forget the fact that DK and Diddy sounded like an ape and monkey in the original DK trilogy, and in several Mario spin offs. So are you still going to pretend that them having those sounds would be as jarring as Yoshi sounding like a freakin' raptor or T-Rex?

Clones take a non-zero amount of time to develop. Maybe you think one unique characters takes the same time as 100 clones, in which case, cutting every clone on the roster wouldn't allow for one more unique character. Other people think that number is far lower.

You are right, they don't take zero effort. Probably about 5-10 hours, done during some guy's lunch break.

Regardless, clones don't take that much. They don't prevent a newcomer from making it in, and removing all of them would unlikely result in newcomer alternatives, because of what I explained above. It would ignorant to say this. You would think with all the interviews and articles that have come out in the previous years that people in the Smash fanbase would be more informed about this.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone would ignorantly say that clones take an entire fighter slot. And that's where you are wrong. You can dislike the idea of someone like Dark Pit being in, but don't think for a second that he or the echoes could have been replaced with anything else.
Those characters are simply copy and pasted from other existing ones, making their work simple to implement. Fine tuning attributes like animations, sound effects and skeleton bone data is unnecessary for the most part because that's all set and ready from the start.

Meanwhile, a professional-grade model for a unique character moveset that needs to be made from scratch, revised with their own rigs, offsets, texture-alignments and scaling, not to mention testing sessions to see if every single one of them works in-game without glitching out takes a lot of effort. I'm not saying it takes "forever" for a team of professionals, but in comparison it's already more effort by far than the clones. The alternative to not including a clone or an echo would result in them not being in the roster all, not being replaced by a unique newcomer.

Rosters tend to be decided prior to development, so Sakurai and his team have already decided from the start on which movesets they are going to be bringing in. It's not like a clone who is derived from someone else would suddenly prevent a new fighter from being in. They are just a convenient way to include characters that people may want to play as.

Smash is still one of many fighting games to incorporate clones regardless where they pull them from. I like how you initially tried to undermine people who are ok with them, as if trying to invalidate anything that others say on the subject except for those who agree with you. Players have their reasons of picking Ken over Ryu, Falco over Fox or Lucina over Marth beyond aesthetics, so who are you to say that that doesn't influence on playstyles or serves no purpose?
And that enormous pool of characters you mentioned is already being used; there is already a great variety of unique fighters. If there’s a small space to be filled, then clones can’t be all that bad, especially if there are newcomers aplenty already.

"And I know many people agree with me on this."

Sadly, you may indeed be correct, if only because ignorant people assume the work that went into X clone that could've been put into "someone else". People are unhappy because of their own lack of understanding of how game development works. And then those people go around and in their ignorance spread misconceptions and misinformation, thus explaining some of the posts in this thread.



This is a fighting game, of course someone like Mario is going to be aggressive, and he is someone who has been known to take competition seriously. He is not jumping around in a happy go lucky world adventuring but punching and kicking his rivals. The comparison with Villager doesn't fly because he is merely using his default expression from the AC games which in turn makes him look psychotic in Smash. Last time I checked, in Mario Odyssey, Mario isn't grinning himself silly nor laughing his *** off during his neutral stance. Ice Climbers look and sound positively angry when they attack.

With Luigi, he has always been this lovable coward/goofball, and Smash captures his personality just well.

And Rosa and Peach using elements of their games in their attacks are just examples of adaptation expansion where references from their games are given more functions than what they are originally intended for in an effort to suit a fighting game better. With Rosa they wanted to have a puppeteer fighter, so implementing Luma was a design choice to accomplish that whilst your suggestions sound generic. Peach is already using clubs and frying pans to try to beat me up anyways, so why is using Toad a no-no when they are supposed to protect her? You want her to play nice now?

And finally, the Yoshi comparison with Diddy and the others it's just stupid. You can make Diddy sound like a monkey and that wouldn't be out of place. On the other hand, you can take Yoshi and give him a roaring sound like the T-Rex from Jurassic Park and people are going to rightfully say that something doesn't feel right. Yoshi was originally implemented to serve as a friendly mount for Mario, he was visually designed to look non-threatening and cute. His sounds have to match this design.

You also forget the fact that DK and Diddy sounded like an ape and monkey in the original DK trilogy, and in several Mario spin offs. So are you still going to pretend that them having those sounds would be as jarring as Yoshi sounding like a freakin' raptor or T-Rex?



You are right, they don't take zero effort. Probably about 5-10 hours, done during some guy's lunch break.

Regardless, clones don't take that much. They don't prevent a newcomer from making it in, and removing all of them would unlikely result in newcomer alternatives, because of what I explained above. It would ignorant to say this. You would think with all the interviews and articles that have come out in the previous years that people in the Smash fanbase would be more informed about this.

TL;DR
What I meant by clones isn't echoes. It's stuff like Roy, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, Isabelle, etc. "Semi clones" as the excuse goes.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

TL;DR
What I meant by clones isn't echoes. It's stuff like Roy, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, Isabelle, etc. "Semi clones" as the excuse goes.

We call arguments we can't refute "excuses".

Echoes is a fancy name for clones anyways.

 

[31fps]

We call arguments we can't refute "excuses".

Echoes is a fancy name for clones anyways.

It's an excuse. Don't sugar coat it. Echoes are a perfect idea but clearly we're not talking about them. We're talking about the fact that over half a dozen fighters in this game have very similar movesets and playstyles as ones we already have but they still take up space.
Roy should be an echo of Marth Chrom should then be an echo of Ike, and Lucina an echo of Corrin. Who cares if their movesets are different, their playstyles aren't.
Luigi and Dr. Mario should get their movesets revamped to not just be Mario clones or they become echoes.
Pichu should be a Pikachu echo
Young Link should be a Toon Link echo. Or Tink is a Link echo. They're all the same.
Isabelle should be a Villager echo

 

[Buzzwole]

Completely inaccurate portrayal of Bowser, and why they cant spend the minuscule amount of effort it would take to make Alph an echo.

 

[soviet prince]

"Many other fighting games." We're talking about Smash. Since smash doesn't create its own characters and instead pulls from already existing ones, That means there's an enormous pool of popular characters to choose from. An enormous pool also means lots of unique movesets and additions. "Slightly modified" movesets don't serve a greater purpose than trying to proliferate their respective series' roster. "Slightly modified" movesets are nothing new and I'd rather have unique movesets come in to bring new playstyles and new perspectives.
When Dark pit was added, KI fans defended him, saying he was a good choice. The argument was that he was the best possible villain choice since he acted as a FOIL characters to Pit. The counter argument was that there were plenty of other antagonists to choose from that weren't a clone moveset of Pit. The same story basically applies for Lucina.
The reason clones are so harmful to Smash is they basically say, "Here's a slight aesthetic difference to a fighter you already have, and it's going to take up an entire fighter slot." Again, I would rather have a new way of fighting and a new perspective on matchups and playstyles than slight cosmetic differences. And I know many people agree with me on this. Clones just don't add as much to the game as a completely original fighter would.

ECHOS DON'T TAKE UP A FIGHTER SLOT, if dark pit was not in then we have one less choice not another fighter

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Completely inaccurate portrayal of Bowser

Agreed. In Brawl, Bowser looked real enough to sound like a Godzilla rip-off. But upon transitioning over to Smash 3DS / Wii U and its more cartoonish approach, that was no longer the case.

and why they cant spend the minuscule amount of effort it would take to make Alph an echo.

If Alph plays exactly like Olimar, then that can easily explain why he still takes up half of Olimar's color slots. This applies to the Koopalings as well, since they pretty much share Bowser Jr.'s hurtboxes (which doesn't make much sense, seeing as Morton is the biggest Koopaling, while Lemmy is the shortest Koopaling).

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

It's an excuse. Don't sugar coat it. Echoes are a perfect idea but clearly we're not talking about them. We're talking about the fact that over half a dozen fighters in this game have very similar movesets and playstyles as ones we already have but they still take up space.
Roy should be an echo of Marth Chrom should then be an echo of Ike, and Lucina an echo of Corrin. Who cares if their movesets are different, their playstyles aren't.
Luigi and Dr. Mario should get their movesets revamped to not just be Mario clones or they become echoes.
Pichu should be a Pikachu echo
Young Link should be a Toon Link echo. Or Tink is a Link echo. They're all the same.
Isabelle should be a Villager echo

The 3 Links along with Pichu and Pikachu have different body shapes and animations from each other therefore they can't be labeled as Echoes, Isabelle is a bit more different from Villager(sorta like Wolf and Fox comparison) so she couldn't be listed as an echo either.

 

[Jasper the Tourist]

Why do so many people have a hate bone for Roy? Like I get it, people are tired of seeing the same movepool being recycled 3 times but since Smash 4 Roy is effectively a semi-clone, enough difference to stand as his own character, he has become to Marth, what Falco and Toon Link are to Fox and Link respectively.

I dunno, like I stated, as far as I can tell, and maybe I’m wrong, there are other much more popular choices for FE characters that fans of the series would rather see. Especially cuz many other FE characters could have more interesting movesets. I don’t hate the character. He and the others just seem... unnecessary and not totally true to character. Hey, just my perspective man, not tryna hate.

 

[thirsty-pocket]

Maybe this isn't directly Smash related... but loosely. I mean, a lot of the fans treat Smash like it's a glorified commercial for other Nintendo games.

I want to know why Nintendo capitalizes on the publicity some characters receive in Smash so infrequently. Like, yeah we got Fire Emblem Localized and a new Kid Icarus thanks to Smash. But other than that, Smash doesn't seem to be the promotional platform that everyone makes it out to be.

I don't mean "put newest character in Smash so people buy game", because that would be horrible. No, what I mean is using older characters made popular again thanks to Smash bros appearances in a new game. Nintendo is still sitting on the Ice Climbers, and Captain Falcon, and other characters that are, at this point, just Smash Bros. mascots now.

 

[Opossum]

It's an excuse. Don't sugar coat it. Echoes are a perfect idea but clearly we're not talking about them. We're talking about the fact that over half a dozen fighters in this game have very similar movesets and playstyles as ones we already have but they still take up space.
Roy should be an echo of Marth Chrom should then be an echo of Ike, and Lucina an echo of Corrin. Who cares if their movesets are different, their playstyles aren't.
Luigi and Dr. Mario should get their movesets revamped to not just be Mario clones or they become echoes.
Pichu should be a Pikachu echo
Young Link should be a Toon Link echo. Or Tink is a Link echo. They're all the same.
Isabelle should be a Villager echo

All this tells me is that you have no idea what an echo is.

 

[TheBean]

Why does Kirby only have 3 fighters.
It's way more popular than FE, DK, and Kid Icarus

 

[Blue Guy]

This game can be pretty confusing. I wonder why they picked the title, is it cashing in on the success of Mario? Is it because you snash your bros? It’s weird?

Why Bowser and Donkey Kong don't have their voices from the root franchises, but Bowser Jr and Diddy Kong (mostly Bowser Jr) do

 

[YoshiandToad]

Why does Kirby only have 3 fighters.
It's way more popular than FE, DK, and Kid Icarus

Isn't DK above Kirby in terms of sales? Kirby's way above the other two though.