What would you like to see changed to Doc to make him viable?

[Underhill]

More air speed would be good, but lower than Mario's. Slighty decrease knockback on the down-throw for more combos. The Sheet to lift him once in the air like melee. Everything else is fine.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

For Doc, we just need buffs like:



*Speed buff to help justify play style (WHY ARE WE SLOWER THAN DDD!!!???)

*Jump and down b (Up b if we get lucky) height increase.

*Range. Again, play style justification. Being a defensive punish character with no range, why!?

*Up air fixes. Why is Marios so easy but ours so versitile?! I like the move by=ut at least make it better.

*Priority on certain moves. Doc tornadoes priority is insane! But we need it on other moves as well.

*Some knockback and damage increases would be amazing.

*Hitbox fixes

*More frame data maybe but not necessarily needed

*other fixes

in my opinion

 

[FrankTheStud]

I think what people are confused about is that Doc is very differnt from Mario. We can't change his up b, his double jump, or his speed. If he's going to get buffs, it should be in ways that enforce his uniqueness, and not buffs that make him more like Mario.

Upgrade up+b hitbox a bit more disjointed, so the priority makes it a bit more difficult to gimp, but keep it the same length. Upgrade possible rising and movement distance of down b in the air... Nothing as crazy as Luigi's, but it'd be nice for his down b to keep SOME of it's height as fatass Doc falls straight down with his lag time... He almost falls the exact amount he rises upon mash during his ending lag frames, which is kind of ridiculous.

Also, a Dair buff would be nice... More priority and/or a possible autocancel... Please? A-Anyone?

 

[Kwam$tack$]

Also, a Dair buff would be nice... More priority and/or a possible autocancel... Please? A-Anyone?

Jesus christ if his Dair autocanceled it'd be game over. especially if it didnt pop them up as much on the last hit. his dair would be like melee fox. so much combo potential. u would probably even be able to chaingrab a couple times

 

[FrankTheStud]

Jesus christ if his Dair autocanceled it'd be game over. especially if it didnt pop them up as much on the last hit. his dair would be like melee fox. so much combo potential. u would probably even be able to chaingrab a couple times

And?

 

[Thinktron]

what if he had the shulk treatment?
with a huge chunk of his attacks dealing 1% more damage

 

[Comet7]

what if he had the shulk treatment?
with a huge chunk of his attacks dealing 1% more damage

it wouldn't make any difference.

i think doc just needs slightly better properties on his normals. jab linking into grab better would be sweet, up tilt having more range as an anti-air, down tilt having less cool down, etc... maybe slightly more range on his grab to make up for his...lackluster speed.

 

[TheBlueSpirit]

Docs up b, first off, should have more priority than Mario's. Or even super armor, but that may be pushing it. But if he's stronger than Mario, then logically his up b would have the ability to withstand more moves.

Another thing that, while it makes sense, kinda seems dumb is docs recovery. It's always said that he was designed to be a slower, stronger Mario. NOT one with a worse recovery. It doesnt really say that anywhere. But for some reason a worse recovery comes with being slow and strong? I'm fine with his run speed, but a slower and stronger character doesn't always need to have a worserecovery than that of their counterpart (look at dark pit and Lucina for crying out loud).

Dair with less end lag and/or autocanceling also would be nice. Look at luigi's version of the move. It doesn't really have much lag either from what I know and it's very similar, excepting the lack of multiple hits.

Sheet having at least one stall would also be useful but not entirely needed.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I was playing tournament mode last night with the Doc, and I found out that Dair is a pretty safe/powerful edgeguarding tool for him. If you are facing toward the stage and land a dair by the edge, the last hit can stage spike them while you recover well with your double jump. (or even a disrespectful footstool). It can also (kinda) be combod into after utilt and carried over again after a double jump, then into a fair.
(Dtilt ->) Utilt -> Jump -> Dair -> Double Jump -> Dair -> Sweetspot Fair (or even up b?)
It's situational, but it worked on a Shulk I fought in Tourney mode, it's just hard for Doc to get in... Dtilt helps a little, but not much.

Doc's uair also combos into his sweet spotted up b pretty well, but this is different per character. I feel that Doc really needs to be more centered around his moves that are different from Mario's, and comboing into his up b seems to be his signature end to a combo string. (However short it may be). Perhaps a LITTLE more stunlock on his uair...?

The only issue is that this playstyle is veeeery risky... Especially on a character with such high weight (can be counter combod easily) and poor recovery, which is why I suggested the buff(s) to cyclone earlier. Thoughts, anyone?

 

[Comet7]

giving his sheet the old stall would be good

slightly less cooldown for pills would let them protect him off stage and give him a better projectile.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Doc doesn't NEED anything. At all. What WOULD be nice is if they give us a better projectile and Uair for tighter combos. That's it. Nothing else.

We just need to get better and actually put more work in.

 

[Deleted member]

Make his side b like how Mario's was in Brawl.

 

[Sari]

- Make cape stall in the air like Mario's
- Make tornado go higher when mashed
- Give Doc a bit more weight
- Give Doc a bit more speed
- Make f-smash's hitbox a bit bigger (specifically more closer to Doc). Usually when I try to hit someone directly in front of me with f-smash it goes right past them which is annoying.

 

[Scootch]

I think he should be more like the doc in Melee without all of the stupid nerfs he got in Sm4sh.

 

[APlainOldBanana]

If this were Reddit I'd probably get downvoted for this (trust me it's happened), but I just want slightly better upB distance, stalling cape in the air, and very slightly better ground speed.

 

[Giga Kaiju]

His recovery options. Like, make his Up-B have a better distance to move in, his cape being actually, USEFUL, to use as a way to stay in the air enough, and be a little lighter.

Other than that, I'm fine with him.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

His recovery options. Like, make his Up-B have a better distance to move in, his cape being actually, USEFUL, to use as a way to stay in the air enough, and be a little lighter.

Other than that, I'm fine with him.

Except wave bounce and b reversal capes bein good for movement and just plain MU help.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Doc is viable.
All you have to do is git gud.

 

[Giga Kaiju]

Except wave bounce and b reversal capes bein good for movement and just plain MU help.

Fair enough. I guess I'd just prefer to be a little 'faster' if I had to sum it up.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Fair enough. I guess I'd just prefer to be a little 'faster' if I had to sum it up.

No he has to be slower and stronger because he wears a stethoscope.
IT MAKES PERFECT LOGICAL SENSE!!!
ALSO REASONS!!!!!

 

[Sari]

Oh yeah I'd also like for the tornado to do more damage. Maybe about 12-15% if all of the hits connect instead of 8%. The fact that Mario's version of the move (d-air) does more damage is ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

I'm fine with everything about doc except his recovery, just give him mario's recovery and he'd be amazing. there are too many characters that can easily gimp him and if the ledge mechanics weren't as forgiving as they are he would literally never make it back to the stage.

honestly thats the only thing I would change because anything else and he wouldn't be doc any more

 

[BabyMarioDS]

well, imo he only needs 7-12 changes
make his cape stall
downward smash (forward) buff
knockback reduce on up air and down tilt (to combo into up b)
less landing lag on down air
0.5%-1% more damage on pills
more sheildstun on down b
more knockback on down b
1.5% damage increase on jabs
add some more damage on each attack

the main point of the dr being in smash was to bring back "melee" mario from what i heard
and a lot of doc mains want more differences between doc and mario so he isnt just a clone

and there is supposed to be a reason why people should pick doc over the normal mario

(btw wtf is up with that upsmash angle change in a old patch, its amazing on for glory since you can use it 3 times in a row starting at 0%, but no one is dumb as that at a tournament)

 

[Stromp]

Cape stall and a little more speed would go a long way

 

[MarioMeteor]

I've been looking at Doc more closely, and really, he only needs a few more things.
1.) Better mobility, both on the ground and in the air. Why is he the 47th fastest character in the game? Why is Dedede faster than him? Why is his air speed so much lower than Mario's?
2.) If they're not going to do that, then give him a weight buff. They wanna treat him like a heavy, make him a heavy. Honestly, they could do both, look at Ike.
3.) This is second most important to mobility: a better recovery. Buff his Tornado, let the first two Capes stall, and buff Doc Jump. Those three right there would put him right up there with some of the better mid tiers.
Some more miscellaneous buffs that would help are:
1.) Remove the sourspots on Doc Punch so that it becomes a somewhat good move.
2.) Revert down air back to how it was in when the game came out and make it faster.
3.) Make the clean hit of his neutral air actually rewarding. Like, increase the knockback so that it becomes a kill move, or up the damage to 11% or something, but make it significant.
4.) Increase Dr. Tornado's damage.
5.) Increase Doc Jump's knockback slightly.
6.) An up air buff would be nice.

 

[Doctor_Mario]

Give him the ability to wavedash.

 

[Mooro...]

I've been looking at Doc more closely, and really, he only needs a few more things.
1.) Better mobility, both on the ground and in the air. Why is he the 47th fastest character in the game? Why is Dedede faster than him? Why is his air speed so much lower than Mario's?
2.) If they're not going to do that, then give him a weight buff. They wanna treat him like a heavy, make him a heavy. Honestly, they could do both, look at Ike.
3.) This is second most important to mobility: a better recovery. Buff his Tornado, let the first two Capes stall, and buff Doc Jump. Those three right there would put him right up there with some of the better mid tiers.
Some more miscellaneous buffs that would help are:
1.) Remove the sourspots on Doc Punch so that it becomes a somewhat good move.
2.) Revert down air back to how it was in when the game came out and make it faster.
3.) Make the clean hit of his neutral air actually rewarding. Like, increase the knockback so that it becomes a kill move, or up the damage to 11% or something, but make it significant.
4.) Increase Dr. Tornado's damage.
5.) Increase Doc Jump's knockback slightly.
6.) An up air buff would be nice.

I agree with what you said. Doc's recovery is definitely one of our weakest options. Wall jump capabilities are appreciated, but not enough to reliably get back on the stage. Doc should be a heavy character, but he's not for whatever reason. I'd like him to be comparable to Captain Falcon in a way if he gets significant buffs. More hitstun/KB growth on his down throw, so I can actually get links into other options besides an uair, bair, or unreliable Doc Tornado (Yes, I use this string. Good for reads and catching the opponent off-guard when they decide to commit to a retaliation). More weight and fast-fall speed, so he can get safer options on shield such as a SHFF nair/bair into grab or Doc Tornado. Plus, the increase in shieldstun for this patch makes some of these options safer than they used to (For example, I was on For Glory for a bit since I was bored and fought a Ganon. I put myself in a bad position since I used Doc Tornado and got that devastating up-smash to the face. I was pretty salty at myself and Ganon's insane damage output, but now it's harder to punish. :D). I personally think Doc Tornado should have less ending lag. It's way too easy to OoS on it with characters such as Bowser, Mario, or Rosalina since it has 75 FAF (First Actionable Frame).

 

[MarioMeteor]

I agree with what you said. Doc's recovery is definitely one of our weakest options. Wall jump capabilities are appreciated, but not enough to reliably get back on the stage. Doc should be a heavy character, but he's not for whatever reason. I'd like him to be comparable to Captain Falcon in a way if he gets significant buffs. More hitstun/KB growth on his down throw, so I can actually get links into other options besides an uair, bair, or unreliable Doc Tornado (Yes, I use this string. Good for reads and catching the opponent off-guard when they decide to commit to a retaliation). More weight and fast-fall speed, so he can get safer options on shield such as a SHFF nair/bair into grab or Doc Tornado. Plus, the increase in shieldstun for this patch makes some of these options safer than they used to (For example, I was on For Glory for a bit since I was bored and fought a Ganon. I put myself in a bad position since I used Doc Tornado and got that devastating up-smash to the face. I was pretty salty at myself and Ganon's insane damage output, but now it's harder to punish. :D). I personally think Doc Tornado should have less ending lag. It's way too easy to OoS on it with characters such as Bowser, Mario, or Rosalina since it has 75 FAF (First Actionable Frame).

Yes, I forgot about Dr. Tornado's horrid ending lag. Doc might actually have a somewhat decent recovery if he didn't stop to contemplate his life every time he finished it. Like I said, above all else, Doc needs a mobility buff. That alone would do him wonders.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Honestly he just needs buffs to his disadvantaged state (which can easily be achieved without altering his recovery greatly or even his mobility.) Mostly because what makes him worse than Mario isn't even necessarily his movement speed (it plays a role, sure, but it's not the biggest nor the most damning issue when you have this safe ass Bair and ridiculous frame data that is better than Mario's in most cases as far as active frames on moves go.) Where the problem sets in is that Doc gets touched and it sucks, and it's really only this bad because he has no low-commitment/reasonable commitment level reversal. Let's go over what he has.

- Dair
- Nair
- Down-B
- Up-B

Of these, only Dair and Nair are really viable to some extent (Down-B is mostly a damn good recovery stall when you're far offstage/too deep to reliably edgeguard if you're not a scrubby Doc mashing Down-B in a vulnerable position). Dair has its problems (high commitment/high startup compared to most reversals, landing lag is an issue as far as on reversal), Nair is too weak as a reversal (Shorthop Autocancel Nair is very handy in other areas of his kit so I'd like it to stay.) A lot of people go "B-but recovery!" except it really isn't that bad until he loses one thing. His double jump. This applies to a giant chunk of the roster, so what gives here? Well, in the case of Doc, he has a tougher time than Mario getting out of trouble, inferior air mobility as one issue but I think it largely comes down to inferior reversal options vs. Mario on the grand scheme. Getting out of traps usually requires you burn one thing you never want to throw away as Doc - your double jump.

So what are the solutions? Well you could generically buff his mobility and risk throwing Mario under the bus because if Doc's mobility ever becomes negligible in difference Mario will have no real merit as Doc's overall moveset is much better at damage building and trades (which combined with improved mobility would probably be actually ridiculous. Doc's USmash on a runspeed anywhere near decent would be pants on head dumb.)

The best and most creative solutions come in two kinds. Neutral or disadvantage. Doc's neutral is a bit worse than Mario's (not by a whole lot), he still has really good safety and while he lacks mobility for high mixups, his Bair is incredibly safe as of this patch so he has viable fullhop Bair shield mixups and just Bair stuff in general + really good frame data and AC windows. He's a cut below Mario in neutral, but what if he was, perse, better? The best method of improving Doc's neutral would be to make pills a worthwhile projectile (they're decidedly mediocre right now) by giving the move an IASA of 40-43, essentially old pills. This would let him control and create space in the neutral more often and give him more diverse options for defense and approach.

How to buff disadvantage? Well, obviously they could just make his Nair Mario's and call it a day, but the best idea is probably making Dair come out faster and have less ending lag (Probably Frame 6 or 7), just less of a giant commitment. Being able to use Dair more sparingly would let Doc toss out a surprisingly solid hitbox that would help get him out of jams and nasty tricks a hell of a lot better than he can right now. They could also do an easy fix and make his recovery a bit more tolerable without a DJ (mostly just a distance increase on Up+B as Down-B as a move is fine as is for what it's meant to do at this point in the meta).

At this point I think his mobility should stay mostly as it is, he is a very different character LARGELY because of this and he's also not totally unfair because of this as well given how his moveset is now. Rather these suggestions just aim to augment his largest problems and make him more usable, because on a game by game basis he's viable, but he's prone to some really risky situations in areas a lot of other characters aren't.

And there's my essay on Dr. Mario. He's not super inherently flawed, there's not a lot of them, but the ones that are there make him not bad, just largely inconsistent.

 

[Mooro...]

Honestly he just needs buffs to his disadvantaged state (which can easily be achieved without altering his recovery greatly or even his mobility.) Mostly because what makes him worse than Mario isn't even necessarily his movement speed (it plays a role, sure, but it's not the biggest nor the most damning issue when you have this safe *** Bair and ridiculous frame data that is better than Mario's in most cases as far as active frames on moves go.) Where the problem sets in is that Doc gets touched and it sucks, and it's really only this bad because he has no low-commitment/reasonable commitment level reversal. Let's go over what he has.

- Dair
- Nair
- Down-B
- Up-B

Of these, only Dair and Nair are really viable to some extent (Down-B is mostly a damn good recovery stall when you're far offstage/too deep to reliably edgeguard if you're not a scrubby Doc mashing Down-B in a vulnerable position). Dair has its problems (high commitment/high startup compared to most reversals, landing lag is an issue as far as on reversal), Nair is too weak as a reversal (Shorthop Autocancel Nair is very handy in other areas of his kit so I'd like it to stay.) A lot of people go "B-but recovery!" except it really isn't that bad until he loses one thing. His double jump. This applies to a giant chunk of the roster, so what gives here? Well, in the case of Doc, he has a tougher time than Mario getting out of trouble, inferior air mobility as one issue but I think it largely comes down to inferior reversal options vs. Mario on the grand scheme. Getting out of traps usually requires you burn one thing you never want to throw away as Doc - your double jump.

So what are the solutions? Well you could generically buff his mobility and risk throwing Mario under the bus because if Doc's mobility ever becomes negligible in difference Mario will have no real merit as Doc's overall moveset is much better at damage building and trades (which combined with improved mobility would probably be actually ridiculous. Doc's USmash on a runspeed anywhere near decent would be pants on head dumb.)

The best and most creative solutions come in two kinds. Neutral or disadvantage. Doc's neutral is a bit worse than Mario's (not by a whole lot), he still has really good safety and while he lacks mobility for high mixups, his Bair is incredibly safe as of this patch so he has viable fullhop Bair shield mixups and just Bair stuff in general + really good frame data and AC windows. He's a cut below Mario in neutral, but what if he was, perse, better? The best method of improving Doc's neutral would be to make pills a worthwhile projectile (they're decidedly mediocre right now) by giving the move an IASA of 40-43, essentially old pills. This would let him control and create space in the neutral more often and give him more diverse options for defense and approach.

How to buff disadvantage? Well, obviously they could just make his Nair Mario's and call it a day, but the best idea is probably making Dair come out faster and have less ending lag (Probably Frame 6 or 7), just less of a giant commitment. Being able to use Dair more sparingly would let Doc toss out a surprisingly solid hitbox that would help get him out of jams and nasty tricks a hell of a lot better than he can right now. They could also do an easy fix and make his recovery a bit more tolerable without a DJ (mostly just a distance increase on Up+B as Down-B as a move is fine as is for what it's meant to do at this point in the meta).

At this point I think his mobility should stay mostly as it is, he is a very different character LARGELY because of this and he's also not totally unfair because of this as well given how his moveset is now. Rather these suggestions just aim to augment his largest problems and make him more usable, because on a game by game basis he's viable, but he's prone to some really risky situations in areas a lot of other characters aren't.

And there's my essay on Dr. Mario. He's not super inherently flawed, there's not a lot of them, but the ones that are there make him not bad, just largely inconsistent.

Incredible essay, New York Times bestseller, guest star on Grey's Anatomy potential.

 

[mr medicinal]

yea less lag on dair, and maybe slight more hit stun on pills if im being greedy

 

[CasteHappy//]

1. Slightly more Up Air hit stun. It will improve his combo game, in some matchups he gets punished for doing his signature combo ( dthrow > up air ), and that's just unfair.

2. Dair should auto-cancel doing a short hop, if not, it should have less start up. I barely use this move and it'd be a great pressuring tool in neutral.

3? Dthrow > Fair should be a true combo on every character, I mean, it's a true combo on some characters at very specific % but against characters like Mario or Luigi, doesn't work. ( This is too much but I'd love it )

Those first 2 are the changes he needs to be a great character.

 

[MarioMeteor]

1. Slightly more Up Air hit stun. It will improve his combo game, in some matchups he gets punished for doing his signature combo ( dthrow > up air ), and that's just unfair.

2. Dair should auto-cancel doing a short hop, if not, it should have less start up. I barely use this move and it'd be a great pressuring tool in neutral.

3? Dthrow > Fair should be a true combo on every character, I mean, it's a true combo on some characters at very specific % but against characters like Mario or Luigi, doesn't work. ( This is too much but I'd love it )

Those first 2 are the changes he needs to be a great character.

How about just making Doc Punch faster? I think a character as strong as Doc having a guarenteed combo into a move that kills at 70% is kinda extreme.

 

[godogod]

Now that attributes have been changed, speed can be changed. I really don't think his huge speed nerf and vertical recovery were justified. The buffs he got in this game were minimal and don't compare to the nerfs.

I really hope he gets a huge speed increase. As fast as mario or 1.4 with a small weight increase. Other than that, increase vertical recovery and have pills do a little more damage. Doc having super armor frames on up b would be nice too.

 

[AbbiDood]

I wouldn't mind seeing some better frame/auto cancel data on down air, better frame data/more damage on pills or an improved recovery. If they feel like leaving him the way he is right now then so be it, I love playing him the way he is right now.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Nothing


/thread

 

[Top Boss]

I would basically just say to improve his air speed. It'd help his combo game, recovery, pressuring, approaches, etc. That alone will make him undoubtedly viable.

 

[godogod]

If Dr tornado can go into super jump punch, that would be swell..

 

[godogod]

Damn, I haven't' been here since my last post. Why is so much of the competitive community against buffs for Dr Mario here?? Nobody is saying anything here, or when they do, they get shut down and pull the "nairo" card.

Look, he's decent character because he has a lot of power and his frame data is great. But in the end he's an inferior mario. H has some combos, but not as much as marios, which isn't too bad. The main thing that is ****ing him over imo, is that his recovery is god awful, and he's slow as hell so he can't chase people(why the **** did sakurai lower his speed, makes no sense).. So why aren't we talking more and actually requesting buffing the fixes that need to be fixed? Why did we shut down two months ago? We know we should buff his ground dash speed and aiding his recovery(higher jump, higher up b, down b can go into up b, or some kind of stall form the cape like a vertical boost). The stat boosts ARE possible. Mewtwo himself got a 20% boost in speed from 1.1.3+1.1.5 alone!

Other people mentioned air speed also. Sure why not. There's several ways.

 

[GerudoKong]

Jesus christ if his Dair autocanceled it'd be game over. especially if it didnt pop them up as much on the last hit. his dair would be like melee fox. so much combo potential. u would probably even be able to chaingrab a couple times

Kirby's dair autocancels and nobody really worries about it that much

Personally I think making him fall faster than mario while retaining all his SH aerial abilities/end lag would be nice.
upair definitely needs more hitstun, that move gets me punished half the time when they're at low %.