What's stopping Sonic from getting more characters?

[Quillion]

In this old thread from back in 2018, a lot of people agreed (despite my protests at the time and even now tbh) that if any third-party franchise would get first dibs at having a second character in Smash, it would need to be Sonic. I saw similar sentiments on multiple other websites.

And then both Castlevania and Street Fighter beat Sonic to that punch. But at least the secondary representative in both of those franchises were echoes. People quickly amended their views that if any third-party franchise would get first dibs at having a second non-echo character in Smash, it would need to be Sonic.

And Final Fantasy (VII) beat Sonic to that punch. I guess this means there's nowhere else to go other than to hope that Sonic gets two more non-echo third-party characters.

This all makes me wonder: what exactly is preventing Sonic from getting more characters, at least within Ultimate's lifetime? The thread I linked seemed to be fairly conclusive evidence to show that among all the third-party franchises, the demand for more Sonic characters outshines that of other third-party franchises. Sora Ltd. and Nintendo should at least be aware of that demand; significantly smaller fan demand is what lead Sakurai to finally relent with giving Ganondorf regular sword moves and rework Wario's Shoulder Bash into a more sensical form. Yet when it comes to selecting characters from already-represented third-party franchises, they continue to choose the franchises with less demand. What could be the reason for this?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I've had this question for a while, it seems like something that should've happened by now. I think theres a decent shot Robotnik or Tails makes it in next year, but we'll kust have to wait and see.

 

[Janx_uwu]

In this old thread from back in 2018, a lot of people agreed (despite my protests at the time and even now tbh) that if any third-party franchise would get first dibs at having a second character in Smash, it would need to be Sonic. I saw similar sentiments on multiple other websites.

And then both Castlevania and Street Fighter beat Sonic to that punch. But at least the secondary representative in both of those franchises were echoes. People quickly amended their views that if any third-party franchise would get first dibs at having a second non-echo character in Smash, it would need to be Sonic.

And Final Fantasy (VII) beat Sonic to that punch. I guess this means there's nowhere else to go other than to hope that Sonic gets two more non-echo third-party characters.

This all makes me wonder: what exactly is preventing Sonic from getting more characters, at least within Ultimate's lifetime? The thread I linked seemed to be fairly conclusive evidence to show that among all the third-party franchises, the demand for more Sonic characters outshines that of other third-party franchises. Sora Ltd. and Nintendo should at least be aware of that demand; significantly smaller fan demand is what lead Sakurai to finally relent with giving Ganondorf regular sword moves and rework Wario's Shoulder Bash into a more sensical form. Yet when it comes to selecting characters from already-represented third-party franchises, they continue to choose the franchises with less demand. What could be the reason for this?

I see no one ever ask this. Thanks for posing the question.
A lot of people are expressing their newfound hope for a second Sonic character thanks to Sephiroth, but no one I’ve heard has asked why the highly requested third party villain wasn’t Eggman instead.
There are a number of reasons, possibly.
For one, hasn’t Sonic always seemed underrepresented in Smash? Like, his moveset doesn’t reference a lot outside of Fighters, the classics, and oddly enough Sonic 06. Everything else is inspired by another character (fair is Falco’s, dair is ZSS, bair is spacies, dsmash is Falco/Fox’s, etc). He was rushed in Brawl so that’s understandable, but since he has seen minimal changes-he’s even seen some negative adjustments, like his face is less expressive than in Brawl despite fighters being “more expressive” was a bullet point Sakurai mentioned during E3 2018.
He has two stages, which is respectable on its own-more than any other third-party. But the second stage is Windy Hill from 2013’ Sonic Lost World, which looks practically the same as Green Hill-suggesting it was in Sega’s contract to put Sonic back in Smash. Silver is still in the Green Hill loop in Ultimate, even though he hasn’t been relevant since 2006-putting Amy, Metal Sonic, or Shadow there instead would make a whole lot more sense. Spirit choices are also really strange-why doesn’t Gamma enhance into a Flicky? Why is Super Shadow here (who hasn’t made an appearance since 2006) but not Zavok (who has become a mainstay in the series and its spinoffs)? Why isn’t Tails a four star spirit, and why doesn’t he enhance into Super Tails? If Gamma is a spirit why not Tikal? It’s super weird in terms of who they chose.
Why, though? It could be that two of the games Sakurai played to reference for Sonic during Brawl’s development were Sonic 06 and Shadow The Hedgehog-its understandable if those left a bad taste in his mouth.
Am I saying Sakurai has a Sonic bias? No, of course not. But I think he and the rest of the Smash team may just give less special treatment to Sonic. Despite Mega Man having, what, 11 remixes new for Ultimate, Sonic’s only got his one Angel Island remix from Brawl (a great remix, but that’s not the point). He has faced minimal moveset changes and when it does change, it does nothing but eliminate another one of his ball moves.
So I guess what I’m saying is, it’s possible Sak and his team just haven’t considered Sonic for another character yet.
I think we’ll get Eggman in this pass, though. And if he doesn’t, then definitely the next game. They can’t ignore the requests for too long.

 

[Quillion]

I see no one ever ask this. Thanks for posing the question.
A lot of people are expressing their newfound hope for a second Sonic character thanks to Sephiroth, but no one I’ve heard has asked why the highly requested third party villain wasn’t Eggman instead.
There are a number of reasons, possibly.
For one, hasn’t Sonic always seemed underrepresented in Smash? Like, his moveset doesn’t reference a lot outside of Fighters, the classics, and oddly enough Sonic 06. Everything else is inspired by another character (fair is Falco’s, dair is ZSS, bair is spacies, dsmash is Falco/Fox’s, etc). He was rushed in Brawl so that’s understandable, but since he has seen minimal changes-he’s even seen some negative adjustments, like his face is less expressive than in Brawl despite fighters being “more expressive” was a bullet point Sakurai mentioned during E3 2018.
He has two stages, which is respectable on its own-more than any other third-party. But the second stage is Windy Hill from 2013’ Sonic Lost World, which looks practically the same as Green Hill-suggesting it was in Sega’s contract to put Sonic back in Smash. Silver is still in the Green Hill loop in Ultimate, even though he hasn’t been relevant since 2006-putting Amy, Metal Sonic, or Shadow there instead would make a whole lot more sense. Spirit choices are also really strange-why doesn’t Gamma enhance into a Flicky? Why is Super Shadow here (who hasn’t made an appearance since 2006) but not Zavok (who has become a mainstay in the series and its spinoffs)? Why isn’t Tails a four star spirit, and why doesn’t he enhance into Super Tails? If Gamma is a spirit why not Tikal? It’s super weird in terms of who they chose.
Why, though? It could be that two of the games Sakurai played to reference for Sonic during Brawl’s development were Sonic 06 and Shadow The Hedgehog-its understandable if those left a bad taste in his mouth.
Am I saying Sakurai has a Sonic bias? No, of course not. But I think he and the rest of the Smash team may just give less special treatment to Sonic. Despite Mega Man having, what, 11 remixes new for Ultimate, Sonic’s only got his one Angel Island remix from Brawl (a great remix, but that’s not the point). He has faced minimal moveset changes and when it does change, it does nothing but eliminate another one of his ball moves.
So I guess what I’m saying is, it’s possible Sak and his team just haven’t considered Sonic for another character yet.
I think we’ll get Eggman in this pass, though. And if he doesn’t, then definitely the next game. They can’t ignore the requests for too long.

I do agree that Sonic's moveset is pretty boring, but the only thing that I think really needs to change is not having very samey Down-B and Side-B. Honestly, I kinda prefer some of the "ball moves" for normals, especially the back-and-forth spindash Down Smash from Brawl instead of the Fox-like split kick he got afterwards.

 

[Janx_uwu]

I do agree that Sonic's moveset is pretty boring, but the only thing that I think really needs to change is not having very samey Down-B and Side-B. Honestly, I kinda prefer some of the "ball moves" for normals, especially the back-and-forth spindash Down Smash from Brawl instead of the Fox-like split kick he got afterwards.

Yeah, I would like a full revamp but if he just gets a new side b then I’ll be satisfied.

 

[Alicorn]

Yeah, I would like a full revamp but if he just gets a new side b then I’ll be satisfied.

A lot of Sonic mains like Sonic's specials if they are charged it would affect his play style dramatically.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I'm sure if Sakurai was willing to pick Sephiroth than he wouldn't overlook any Sonic characters as DLC. If anything or anyone is keeping Sonic characters from getting into the roster it's probably Sega. While they're more generous with Nintendo than some 3rd parties, asking for more characters from a big franchise like Sonic is a big deal. I don't know how licensing or copyright works, but I imagine licensing for the IP would probably go up in price if you're using more than one character.

 

[Quillion]

I'm sure if Sakurai was willing to pick Sephiroth than he wouldn't overlook any Sonic characters as DLC. If anything or anyone is keeping Sonic characters from getting into the roster it's probably Sega. While they're more generous with Nintendo than some 3rd parties, asking for more characters from a big franchise like Sonic is a big deal. I don't know how licensing or copyright works, but I imagine licensing for the IP would probably go up in price if you're using more than one character.

Smash is an icon-maker, though. Wouldn't Sega be willing to pay Nintendo to put another of their characters in Smash?

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Smash is an icon-maker, though. Wouldn't Sega be willing to pay Nintendo to put another of their characters in Smash?

I would think so, but I also couldn't think who else would be holding off the Sonic characters besides Sega. I would say Sakurai, but he just added Sephiroth so...

 

[Quillion]

I would think so, but I also couldn't think who else would be holding off the Sonic characters besides Sega. I would say Sakurai, but he just added Sephiroth so...

It's a lose-lose no matter who's doing it. If it's Sega, it's just another counterproductive decision they've made when it comes to Sonic. If it's Sakurai, they're just ignoring fan demand.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

It's a lose-lose no matter who's doing it. If it's Sega, it's just another counterproductive decision they've made when it comes to Sonic. If it's Sakurai, they're just ignoring fan demand.

Truth is, we will probably never know. We just have to wait and see if they will ever add another Sonic rep.

 

[7NATOR]

Sega loans out their characters a bunch

Fallguys, OK Ko, Lego Dimmensions, Ninjala, etc

I mean even in Smash, there are many Sonic Spirits and there's 2 Assist Trophies. Especially with Sonic's 30th Anniversary coming up, I don't think Sega will get in the way.

 

[CHAMPIONX9]

The whole moveset thing i think the reason is that it would be more work same with decloning ganon.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

The whole moveset thing i think the reason is that it would be more work same with decloning ganon.

I never thought of that as the reason why, but that does make sense especially for Dr. Eggman. There is a lot you could do with Eggman's moveset, but the question is what vehicle would he be riding in and what moves from his past boss battles would be absorbed into that moveset?

 

[CHAMPIONX9]

I never thought of that as the reason why, but that does make sense especially for Dr. Eggman. There is a lot you could do with Eggman's moveset, but the question is what vehicle would he be riding in and what moves from his past boss battles would be absorbed into that moveset?

Oh i was talking about why sonic moveset didnt get a rework. I think if eggman got dlc they could afford to go all out with his moveset.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Oh i was talking about why sonic moveset didnt get a rework. I think if eggman got dlc they could afford to go all out with his moveset.

I agree. But I still wonder what vehicle they would go with.

 

[abrinx77]

Great question. After Sephiroth, I think the chances of a second sonic rep have increased, especially for Dr. Eggman. I think a lot of people were sleeping on a potential villain rep, and look what happens. The problem with Eggman is I have a hard time envisioning a move set. There is plenty of potential, I just don't know how he would end up playing.

 

[Quillion]

Great question. After Sephiroth, I think the chances of a second sonic rep have increased, especially for Dr. Eggman. I think a lot of people were sleeping on a potential villain rep, and look what happens. The problem with Eggman is I have a hard time envisioning a move set. There is plenty of potential, I just don't know how he would end up playing.

I know it's just a fangame, but Sonic Smackdown makes Eggman work well. There's no need for them to be limited just to purely canon moves.

That being said, it does have the side effect of making Eggman tinier than usual.

 

[UserKev]

In terms of a conceptual moveset for Eggman, I would love an Inspector Gadget inspired unique echo. Give him a back attachment device that work identically to Inspector Gadget's near endless weapon providence and have his mech function as a Final Smash. It'd work.

 

[Quillion]

In terms of a conceptual moveset for Eggman, I would love an Inspector Gadget inspired unique echo. Give him a back attachment device that work identically to Inspector Gadget's near endless weapon providence and have his mech function as a Final Smash. It'd work.

Well, if the Sonic Smackdown video I posted up above is any indication, I think people want Eggman's mech to be his default method of fighting.

 

[UserKev]

Well, if the Sonic Smackdown video I posted up above is any indication, I think people want Eggman's mech to be his default method of fighting.

Eggman fighting in his mech goes without saying. I'm not doubtful that a gadget device use variant wouldn't grow on people tho. Really, how many of us would have rather a proper ground pound Ganondorf before a certain echo that for certain grew on us? With the right creativity, you can make certain work.

 

[Otoad64]

I kinda feel like a 2nd Sonic character is inevitable at this point, either that or sakurai/nintendo just doesn't care about sonic

I see no one ever ask this. Thanks for posing the question.
A lot of people are expressing their newfound hope for a second Sonic character thanks to Sephiroth, but no one I’ve heard has asked why the highly requested third party villain wasn’t Eggman instead.
There are a number of reasons, possibly.
For one, hasn’t Sonic always seemed underrepresented in Smash? Like, his moveset doesn’t reference a lot outside of Fighters, the classics, and oddly enough Sonic 06. Everything else is inspired by another character (fair is Falco’s, dair is ZSS, bair is spacies, dsmash is Falco/Fox’s, etc). He was rushed in Brawl so that’s understandable, but since he has seen minimal changes-he’s even seen some negative adjustments, like his face is less expressive than in Brawl despite fighters being “more expressive” was a bullet point Sakurai mentioned during E3 2018.
He has two stages, which is respectable on its own-more than any other third-party. But the second stage is Windy Hill from 2013’ Sonic Lost World, which looks practically the same as Green Hill-suggesting it was in Sega’s contract to put Sonic back in Smash. Silver is still in the Green Hill loop in Ultimate, even though he hasn’t been relevant since 2006-putting Amy, Metal Sonic, or Shadow there instead would make a whole lot more sense. Spirit choices are also really strange-why doesn’t Gamma enhance into a Flicky? Why is Super Shadow here (who hasn’t made an appearance since 2006) but not Zavok (who has become a mainstay in the series and its spinoffs)? Why isn’t Tails a four star spirit, and why doesn’t he enhance into Super Tails? If Gamma is a spirit why not Tikal? It’s super weird in terms of who they chose.
Why, though? It could be that two of the games Sakurai played to reference for Sonic during Brawl’s development were Sonic 06 and Shadow The Hedgehog-its understandable if those left a bad taste in his mouth.
Am I saying Sakurai has a Sonic bias? No, of course not. But I think he and the rest of the Smash team may just give less special treatment to Sonic. Despite Mega Man having, what, 11 remixes new for Ultimate, Sonic’s only got his one Angel Island remix from Brawl (a great remix, but that’s not the point). He has faced minimal moveset changes and when it does change, it does nothing but eliminate another one of his ball moves.
So I guess what I’m saying is, it’s possible Sak and his team just haven’t considered Sonic for another character yet.
I think we’ll get Eggman in this pass, though. And if he doesn’t, then definitely the next game. They can’t ignore the requests for too long.

i kinda feel like sakurai doesn't like to change movesets, it took him 17 years just to give ganondorf his sword!

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Since Smash Ultimate is the Ultimate Smash game and we just got our first non Echo secondary 3rd party rep in Sephiroth, than I think a 2nd Sonic rep needs to happen for Ultimate whether it be Tails, Dr. Eggman, Knuckles, or Shadow.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Sadly, Knuckles and Shadow are out, due to their Assist Trophy status. Tails and Dr. Eggman would be the next best bets, but seeing as we already have a fighter who uses a vehicle to fight (Bowser Jr.), I'm not too positive about Dr. Eggman's odds.

 

[Quillion]

Sadly, Knuckles and Shadow are out, due to their Assist Trophy status. Tails and Dr. Eggman would be the next best bets, but seeing as we already have a fighter who uses a vehicle to fight (Bowser Jr.), I'm not too positive about Dr. Eggman's odds.

I use this example a lot, but we do have Sheik and Greninja. Not a stretch to think that they can make two mech pilots unique.

 

[Otoad64]

I use this example a lot, but we do have Sheik and Greninja. Not a stretch to think that they can make two mech pilots unique.

yeah it would be easy to make thme unique, jr. doesn't use missiles or lasers

 

[jamesster445]

Simplest answer.

No one at Nintendo or Sega wants it. There have been multiple new characters some even owned by Sega, namely Bayonetta and Joker. So it's not like Sega isn't pushing for their own brands, just not Sonic.

 

[Quillion]

Simplest answer.

No one at Nintendo or Sega wants it. There have been multiple new characters some even owned by Sega, namely Bayonetta and Joker. So it's not like Sega isn't pushing for their own brands, just not Sonic.

Well, as 7NATOR said:

Sega loans out their characters a bunch

Fallguys, OK Ko, Lego Dimmensions, Ninjala, etc

I mean even in Smash, there are many Sonic Spirits and there's 2 Assist Trophies. Especially with Sonic's 30th Anniversary coming up, I don't think Sega will get in the way.

It seems Sega is indeed pushing Sonic in everything but Smash.

 

[7NATOR]

Well, as 7NATOR said:



It seems Sega is indeed pushing Sonic in everything but Smash.

Yeah, I can't buy that Sega at least didn't try to talk to Nintendo about Another Sonic Character

Smash is considered a Very good Advertisement place since Alot of people eyes are on it, and It's sold like 20+ Million Copies. Having new Releated Sonic Content show up around the 30th Anniversary will help Sega celebrate It's anniversary

Of Course Nintendo has to Agree to it. Sonic's 3D Games have alot of Inconsistent Quality, and Team Sonic Racing was kinda bare, but Everything else Sonic is very Relevant. They are heavy in the Comic Scene, Were getting into the Movie Scene (The Movie didn't release when the FP2 Roster was finalized), Mobile game Scene, Cartoon Scene, Internet Scene, both with Twitter and the Fan games, Merchandise, etc, and Sonic Mania was huge hit. Besides the Games, the honestly Beat out Mario in all Aspects

There's Also been ALOT of Requests for another Sonic Character. I do think there is very good chance of another one. It's not a Gurantee though

 

[Quillion]

Having new Releated Sonic Content show up around the 30th Anniversary will help Sega celebrate It's anniversary

Given that Sega usually releases a new Sonic game for every 5th anniversary, you're probably right. There's no doubt Squeenix loaning out Sephiroth was timed to be close to FF7R.

 

[P1cklee]

Yeah, I would like a full revamp but if he just gets a new side b then I’ll be satisfied.

I dotn care what they do if they revamp sonic, but tbh, i just want them to make his fair sonic eagle and im happy.

 

[Otoad64]

sonic should use the wisps imo, maybe rocket wisp for a new recovery?

 

[fogbadge]

lack of interest from sakurai?

 

[Janx_uwu]

sonic should use the wisps imo, maybe rocket wisp for a new recovery?

That would be cool. I think they're big enough in the current line of games to warrant a moveset inclusion.

 

[P1cklee]

sonic should use the wisps imo, maybe rocket wisp for a new recovery?

that would be cool, but the spring's more iconic, so imo it'd be better to keep it

 

[TriggerX]

I don’t think there is anything stopping Sonic from getting another character, but I do believe the series has lost a lot of its prestige over time.
While the series is iconic, idk how popular(sales wise) it actually is anymore.
It probably just isn’t worth further investing into the franchise on the smash end.
They’d probably pick up more players by branching off to completely different franchises rather than revisit Sonic.

Although Eggman would be a much needed villain to the roster

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Sadly, Knuckles and Shadow are out, due to their Assist Trophy status. Tails and Dr. Eggman would be the next best bets, but seeing as we already have a fighter who uses a vehicle to fight (Bowser Jr.), I'm not too positive about Dr. Eggman's odds.

So? We have a billion sword fighters in Smash so a 2nd mech fighter wouldn't take up space. Plus Dr. Eggman is SUPER iconic being one of the most iconic gaming villains so he has that going for him if not anything else.

 

[Otoad64]

everyone talks about the same four sonic characters but no one talks about how basically every major sonic character could work in smash bros

 

[P1cklee]

Sadly, Knuckles and Shadow are out, due to their Assist Trophy status. Tails and Dr. Eggman would be the next best bets, but seeing as we already have a fighter who uses a vehicle to fight (Bowser Jr.), I'm not too positive about Dr. Eggman's odds.

that rule is kinda not official, so there's still hope for them.

 

[Quillion]

everyone talks about the same four sonic characters but no one talks about how basically every major sonic character could work in smash bros

Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, and Eggman are the four most prominent characters in the franchise after Sonic. Could Blaze, Silver, Marine, or Cream work? Sure, but we need to draw the line somewhere.