What's the difference between Side-B and Down-B? [REVERSION: 8/18/09]

[infomon]

thanks yo!

 

[aeghrur]

Wait, you can get a rolling ASC from an SDR turnaround? Does that mean we have a pivot motion sot of in the SDR?

 

[Tenki]

liek, nowai!! Gosh, when did you realize that SDR becomes a "rolling ASC" when it goes too slow?

I was messing around with airdash/iSDR a long time ago trying to figure out how to get it to shoot off platforms in a custom stage, or what happens if it reverses, and I was holding shield while going up a hill on a single-charge and thought "WHOA YOU CAN SHIELD CANCEL AIRDASH!"

I also tried it with singlecharge iSDR to go through Snake grenade/explosive walls and slowed down enough to shield cancel it.

Then I realized that it wasn't limited to iSDR and you could do it with any SDR `.`;

 

[Jim Morrison]

I believe Sonic has the most ****ed up B-moves there are...

 

[Kinzer]

Yeah boy, because we have the Mach Tornado as our Fair?

Shawnik for Steak Tier!

 

[Napilopez]

Well, I just thought this belongs here more than anywhere else:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BghNRvRh9gI

Explanation for the mechanics:

Ahh it sounds soo situational to recreate... but if we could.... my goodness. It probably has something to do with the moving platform, hmmm...

I'm pretty bas at holding perfectly forward during my ASCs and SDRs. Perhaps I reached a speed that was like a perfect balance between the platform speed and my aerial speed so it kept hitting? I guess I'll get more clues when I watch...

Oh Sonic, you and your weird properties.

OK, Napz I think you're right. The SDR falls off the platform into ASC. Then the platform moves forward a l'il, the ASC is technically "landing" on the platform back into an SDR. Then it falls off into an ASC, platform moves up, and it's an SDR again. Each time along the way, it's smacking the MK

omgomgomg tooooooo good!

Edit: Napz, if you hadn't done the turnaround, it might've kept going and the ASC hits would do more damage if you held forward, altho that might've overstepped the platform and put and end to the lolz. Also, MK would've eventually DI'd out, but still....

Edit 2: I updated the vid with the explanation. Part of the reason it works, is because when the ASC hits, we're both in hitlag, which gives the platform time to catch up to us..... lololol

Okay, I think it's basically like this.
When you SDRed, it hit MK, then it turned into ASC and hit him again, but as you hit him, the hitlag slowed you down so the platform was able to catch up and your ASC was interrupted by it and turned back into an SDR. So, basically, SDR->Hit/hitlag->ASC->hit/hitlag->platform catches up->SDR->ASC->SDR. =/ Something like that.
DANG FIZZY, A BIT BEFORE ME. >_<

And yea, its not as situational as you may think. I've pulled it off a couple of times in real matches. You can try it easily by going to training mode, setting the CPU to jump, and intercepting it with an SDR as the CPU jumped past the edge of the platform.

Sounds lke a hard setup, but often you dont really have to set it up. Your opponent simpyl tries to persure you if your on the platform, and you just catch em by surprise with it.

If anything, its a neat ability to have =P The most damage I've been able to pull off with it is 44%

 

[da K.I.D.]

is there a specific speed or directional input that needs to be done?

 

[Camalange]

is there a specific speed or directional input that needs to be done?

I believe it works on the same principles of the ASC. Just simply holding forward works, and the moving platform just extends how long you hit. As for speed, I'm pretty sure any amount of charge will work, as long as you're moving.

Oh wait, no. I misread. They said you would get MORE DAMAGE, if you held forward, but that hasn't been tested yet...I'd check this out for myself but my Wii is occupied...

 

[Napilopez]

Hmm, well I do think there is an optimal speed for you to get the most hits out of it, because you basically want it to be perfect so that you are not rolling too far before the moving platform can catch up with you during hitlag.

From watching the vid, my SC seemed to be single charge.

I typically tend to hold diagonal down-forward, so that probably my input.

 

[Tenki]

He was definitely holding backwards at some point, slowing down the ASC, and by the end (last hit), it was an SDR that ended during a turnaround (which is why he was facing backwards).

 

[Napilopez]

He was definitely holding backwards at some point, slowing down the ASC, and by the end (last hit), it was an SDR that ended during a turnaround (which is why he was facing backwards).

LOL haha, I started to hold backwards cuz I was afraid of what the heck was going on. But yea. I have been able to replicate it quite a few times, so if I could find out the perfect input it would help. I was able to get 44%(although in training mode, so no staling) by just holding forward in some way, so yea. Imma have to be more wary of my exact inputs, I always hold diagonally instead of fully forward.

Has anyone be able to replicate it consistently? If I could find a set-up for this, it would be too good.

Uthrow -> VSDJ -> SC as platform passes by?

seems easier to just do it like what happened in the vid though, catch your opponent as he tried to approach.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Uthrow -> VSDJ -> SC as platform passes by?

That'd rely too much on your opponents DI and your timing. The U-throw could be DI'ed to much to the front or back and the VSDJ would not hit, or it would knock them backwars. Then, hitting them with the SC would require absurb timing. But still, imagine the crowds... WOOOHOHOOHOHOHOHOHOHOOHO

 

[cycon365]

going off the path a bit, I was wondering if sonic boards found this.

I used the search and couldn't find anything, but here goes

In Sonic's Ground Side B, it's already been discussed that you can cancel it with a shield, but with a wiimote (with and without nunchuk), you can cancel the side B using Jab and go into a foward jump.

I have a crappy GCN controller, so I assume I can't do it on the GCN because of me, but essentially it goes like this

GCN:
Side B --> Press A before Charge finishes --> jump across half of FD
Wiimote
Side 1 --> press 2 before charge finishes --> "" ""
Nunchuk
Same as Gamecube

now again, I can't do it with the GCN, if another player can, then i'll know to burn my controller, but if not, then well....:/

also, the search function brought up nothing, so if this was already found, then ignore it, but if not, well....there's something

 

[infomon]

That "jump halfway across FD" is called a Spinshot. While you're charging side-B, the Attack button actually just does a jump, so it would make sense that the Attack button could be used to do a Spinshot. I'm not sure anyone knows why spinshotting can happen with different input on a wiichuck config rather than a GCN, but iunno.

I think what you described is known, but I dunno regardless, thanx for posting it

 

[cycon365]

That "jump halfway across FD" is called a Spinshot. While you're charging side-B, the Attack button actually just does a jump, so it would make sense that the Attack button could be used to do a Spinshot. I'm not sure anyone knows why spinshotting can happen with different input on a wiichuck config rather than a GCN, but iunno.

I think what you described is known, but I dunno regardless, thanx for posting it

A spin shot is a jump where he's not in his spin dash animation?

 

[Tenki]

going off the path a bit, I was wondering if sonic boards found this.

I used the search and couldn't find anything, but here goes

In Sonic's Ground Side B, it's already been discussed that you can cancel it with a shield, but with a wiimote (with and without nunchuk), you can cancel the side B using Jab and go into a foward jump.

I have a crappy GCN controller, so I assume I can't do it on the GCN because of me, but essentially it goes like this

GCN:
Side B --> Press A before Charge finishes --> jump across half of FD
Wiimote
Side 1 --> press 2 before charge finishes --> "" ""
Nunchuk
Same as Gamecube*Tenkinote: copy and pasted for ... copyness
Side B --> Press A before Charge finishes --> jump across half of FD

now again, I can't do it with the GCN, if another player can, then i'll know to burn my controller, but if not, then well....:/

also, the search function brought up nothing, so if this was already found, then ignore it, but if not, well....there's something

A spin shot is a jump where he's not in his spin dash animation?

this one?

3 - What is Spinshot? spin shot
Spinshot is an AT that lets Sonic jump through the air at running speed! In essence, it is an instant double jump, and it's done by almost immediately inputting [Jump] or [Attack] as soon as you release side-B or down-B in the air. Side-B starts with a hop, so you're sent in the air regardless of where you are, but if you're trying to do it from down-B, you have to be in the air first.

"Regular input", GC controller:

[Hold side-B]> [Release B and quickly hit A or jump]​

*I prefer sliding from B to A.

Easy shortcuts:
- ASC spinshot (GC controller, default settings):

(air) [Down]+[B, B, B...] > [C-stick Left/Right]​

- Side-B spinshot (Wiimote+Nunchuck, B for special, A for Attack):

[Side+B]>[hit A while holding B]​

​

Video, for those having trouble understanding what a Spinshot looks like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XPazo3otHo

my threads are pretty awesome, btw

edit:
You can't do it while holding B if you're using the GC controller. You have to perform it manually (hit jump/attack input as soon as you release side-B)

 

[infomon]

[video example]

A spinshot is a weird jump you can get when you jump out of the transition from one spindash "phase" to another; it can happen when you jump just as you release a charging down-B or side-B, and it can happen just as you roll a spindash off a platform (it changes phase from a "spindash roll" (SDR) to an "aerial spin charge" (ASC)).

It's your midair jump, but very fast/far and at a low angle. I assume that's what you were talking about?

Edit: o hai thar mr. tenki

 

[cycon365]

this one?





my threads are pretty awesome, btw

edit:
You can't do it while holding B if you're using the GC controller. You have to perform it manually (hit jump/attack input as soon as you release side-B)

[video example]

A spinshot is a weird jump you can get when you jump out of the transition from one spindash "phase" to another; it can happen when you jump just as you release a charging down-B or side-B, and it can happen just as you roll a spindash off a platform (it changes phase from a "spindash roll" (SDR) to an "aerial spin charge" (ASC)).

It's your midair jump, but very fast/far and at a low angle. I assume that's what you were talking about?

Edit: o hai thar mr. tenki

ah yes, thanks for working with my noobishness, hmm...well, awesome

 

[Tenki]

Edit: o hai thar mr. tenki

hi

YOU'RE TOO SLOW
euahiuheaUHeuAhuhaiUehaIUheaiuhIAUHEIAuhuah




​

edit:
o hai boxob ;d

 

[Boxob]

Zero Ninety Three.

 

[infomon]

Woooooow, I just got sooooooo ooooowned.

 

[da K.I.D.]

did you know that SDR can set up the anthinus combo?

 

[infomon]

what the heck is the anthinus combo? lol

Even though I've been here for a while, I still feel pretty newb sometimes

 

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4GGuRDQShw
1:12
1:28
2:20
2:38
3:05
3:36
4:23

 

[infomon]

Ah, yeah those are awesome.

And recently, somewhere on these boards, you mentioned using Dthrow as well to prop them onto a spring... lol that happened in a friendly recently, maybe CUsmasher or Camalange did it to me, I was liek, omglolhax. It's good stuff.

 

[da K.I.D.]

wait, they d threw you and ran up and made you bounce on their own spring?

yea i did mention that, i need to try it.
lol its funny because theirs so many things that i do, that i cant remember them all in 1 match

 

[infomon]

The Dthrow itself popped me high enough that I landed on their spring, lol.

I don't even think I was DI'ing up, but mebbe I was.... I don't remember.

 

[Boxob]

KID.

You give yourself a LOT of credit.

Just letting you know, we know you're amazing, shut up already.

<3

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol, i had actually forgot to test that myself and when i posted it (it was on tenkis pop quiz thread btw) I was only saying it on theory, im glad you guys listen to me and tested that out. and if you like that, youll love some of the new stuff in my bag of trickies...

lol, i love you too boxy (superhomo), besides, i think i pulled my tricep, so ill be nice for a little while lol.
doo u cee wut i did thar?

 

[Napilopez]

Ah, yeah those are awesome.

And recently, somewhere on these boards, you mentioned using Dthrow as well to prop them onto a spring... lol that happened in a friendly recently, maybe CUsmasher or Camalange did it to me, I was liek, omglolhax. It's good stuff.

Lol actually infzynator, you did that to me in one of our sonic dittos XD

 

[infomon]

Lol actually infzynator, you did that to me in one of our sonic dittos XD

oh, maybe that's what it was
since it was epic, I just assumed it was done to me, in retrospect...... lol

 

[Deathwish238]

infzy with the discovery of the bucket cancel along with DK and yoshi's thing do you think sonic is able to cancel the KO momentum with his >B or no??

 

[da K.I.D.]

yes he is,
i came up with that, and it works very well

 

[Tenki]

infzy with the discovery of the bucket cancel along with DK and yoshi's thing do you think sonic is able to cancel the KO momentum with his >B or no??

You missed the whole discussion, it happened in another thread just earlier lol.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6012220

Basically, this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UuXBIYnMuTE

I wanna see how much of a boost Sonic gets with his down-B/side-B. :[

Make a video for that.

ex:
F-air > side-B
F-air > fastfall > double jump?

vs
side-B
down-B

I wanna see it done at one of those max-range levels.

Yeah. I cover it a bit at 5:00 in this one:
[How to Recover, after DI: momentum-cancelling, etc.]

But it's blurry, and it's done at 1x so it's hard to see what happens. I'd always meant to do a Sonic-specific how-to-recover video.... I'll see if I have time for that tomorrow.

The side-B and down-B do give a boost, but it's a small one{*}, and the start-up lag frames of side-B and down-B are both very fast with respect to most other specials I've seen that actually help for recovery. So Sonic is on the better side of favourable-recovery-mechanics. Side-B is easier to pull off, but gives you a bit extra height compared to down-B, which is even safer vertically but can be hard to time the release to be as fast as possible. Both options are better than using our jump.


{*}I'm not sure if the size of these "extra boosts" are based on the properties of the Jump or Special that's used, or if it's just proportional to the amount of knockback that remains. Here's one for the SmashLab, I guess.

Well, my question really pertains to this:

- most special attacks DO give you a boost, especially if the move does something related to momentum changes.

Side-B's charge affects momentum. Down-B's charge doesn't.

Also, not many special attacks have significant phase changes.

- Does the charge give a boost, or is it the release after the charge?

- If it's the release after the charge, then double jumping to escape the charge (see Sonic Orochi's video ) should be able to cancel the momentum.

So would it be better to just do a single charge down-B by itself instead of a f-air>spin special?

I don't have any nice numbers, but it appears that Sonic's best horizontal save is to do a fair followed by a spin dash and release the spin dash DO NOT jump cancel it. It stops all Sonic's horizontal momentum, jump canceling it still causes sonic to move right.

So release after Charge to answer your question Tenki

edit: Honestly though... a fair > dair with proper DI seems to have almost the same benefit.

how about ASC > insta spinshot?

:3

Hmmm, you caught me.

Down-B doesn't seem to give any extra boost at all. During the start-up lag / charge phase, you'll keep flying away along your normal knockback trajectory. At release, you're moving forward at its normal speed and angle, as if you were never in knockback; you have full control.

Side-B's charge does give a boost, but it seems to be consistently a small one. From a DK Fsmash at 120, the knockback+boost pushes me backwards about the same length as the SD's "hop"; so it takes away the same bit of space that you regain afterwards, while the hitbox is out.

As with down-B, when you release the side-B it's as if you were never in knockback; it's the ordinary hop forwards. Naturally, the same goes for if you spinshot out of it; it's a normal spinshot. Just releasing the side-B or down-B has already killed the knockback.

Anyway, so it turns out that the absolute best course of action is to fastfall an Fair, then release a down-B as fast as you possibly can. It has to be a "real" down-B, like release it as soon as it gets some charge... I guess I'll have to practice the timing for that. An empty down-B just means you keep travelling away along knockback.

The down-B is strictly better than a side-B, since it doesn't have the tiny extra boost that a side-B would cause. In fact, you can use down-B to help survive vertical KOs as well as horizontal ones! On my "largest possible custom stage", I could survive Luigi's up-B to a maximum of 95% by just fastfalling an Fair. However, fastfalled Fair > down-B allowed me to live up to 106%. An extra 11% survivability isn't bad!

Edit: o hai mr. dnes, it seems we disagree
*annoying voice* the fight is on!

Alright here goes my post:

Upon release the spin dash does greatly change the momentum... the problem is that this release will be too late since Sonic is still moving.

The down B has momentum changing effects upon startup which obviously is faster than the release of the spin dash.

With my DI skills and executing a fair>down B... remember doesn't matter if I release, I can save myself from an uncharged mario fsmash on one end of battlefield to the other at 155%

Can you do better infzy?

waah, you said Dair? do not Dair! Sonic can't even fastfall his Dair while he's in knockback it's the only move in the game that I've found has that problem, lolol.

Although I guess you said to Fair first, and the Fair should be fastfalled...... but then I don't know what benefit you think you'd get from the Dair.

But you scratched that anyway...... oh, you posted something new, lemme read it lol

Ok... yeah I suck at this. I didn't realize I might be fast falling sometimes and sometimes not.

I can survive at 159 by I believe I am fair/fastfall>downB (and yes this is in training mode where knockback is not reduced)

So many variables to watch out for.

Waiiit.

What about F-air> Side/downB?

I'm sure their single charges are faster than having to wait out F-air's ending lag.

Specials can't come out as fast as aerials

I looked up crying baby on google, but it was meh.
I looked up crying emo, and it was ugly.
I looked up crying emo ugly, and I found this

Come on Tenki, step it up! I recommend you watch my previous videos on momentum-cancelling:
[How to Recover, after DI: momentum-cancelling, etc.]
[Recovering in Brawl: Momentum-Cancelling examples]

(particularly the first one, the second is just some extra examples)

Hitstun has two phases. In the first you can't do anything. In the second, you can airdodge, aerial, Z-air, or throw an item. You can't use a Jump or Special out of hitstun. That's why we escape hitstun with our fastest aerial (Fair), fastfalled (since you can fastfall before reaching the apex of your knockback trajectory, lol), and then maybe use a Jump or Special to counteract the remaining portion of knockback.

dNES: Are you DI'ing? Are you hitting with Mario's Fsmash sweetspot (17%) or the weaker 14% hit? Battlefield's prolly not the best place to test on, since it's small so you can't see what's happening to Sonic towards the end, and it's hard to compare multiple options that may appear equivalent at shorter distances.

Edit: you ugly, crying emo

Yeah I just gave up... tenki and I fail. I was on FD not BF incase I mis said that. My last post was after I realized I wasn't taking in account mario's sweet spot... which is probably why you're doing this on DK ... bigger hitbox... am I right? How horrible of a tester am I? LoL... I should stick to counting frames.

TL;DR version:
F-air + fastfall > side/down-B and you're set.

 

[infomon]

Yeah... it was da KID who figured out that Sonic's side-B works better than jumping out of momentum. That's what prodded me to go ahead and make my first vid lol.

It turns out that down-B works even better than side-B. Mwaha! Sonic's momentum-cancelling is quite good, but nowhere near as broken as G&W lol.

 

[Tenki]

Yeah... it was da KID who figured out that Sonic's side-B works better than jumping out of momentum. That's what prodded me to go ahead and make my first vid lol.

It turns out that down-B works even better than side-B. Mwaha! Sonic's momentum-cancelling is quite good, but nowhere near as broken as G&W lol.

When dNES gets that frame data, I'll be able to say for sure whether or not down-B is better than side-B lol.

I have a feeling that down-B starts up and releases faster, but side-B does reset vertical momentum as well after release.

But arguably, as long as you're travelling towards the stage, there's nowhere down-B can go where that you can't double jump and spring back from anyway.

PS, new sig.

 

[da K.I.D.]

with all of these survivability options, it seems there needs to be a new weight list made, cus sonic is proly now effectively heavier than the 2 people above him in weight.

pika, GaW, and MK all got heavier as well

 

[infomon]

I have a feeling that down-B starts up and releases faster, but side-B does reset vertical momentum as well after release.

Both side-B and down-B "reset" your horizontal and vertical momentum after their release. In both cases, it's the start-up that will kill you. But side-B's charge causes an extra boost away from the stage, in addition to knockback. Alternatively, down-B's charge just continues along knockback.

This is why I'm convinced that down-B is superior for horizontal recoveries (as well as vertical, for obvious reasons), and this is what I've seen in practice. A very slight gain in horizontal recovery from using down-B instead of side-B.

... and I'd love frame data on the release time of down-B vs. side-B.

with all of these survivability options, it seems there needs to be a new weight list made, cus sonic is proly now effectively heavier than the 2 people above him in weight.

pika, GaW, and MK all got heavier as well

Nope. Weight vs. "momentum-cancelling" are still categorically different. Consider a short-range KO, like you're sending someone towards the ceiling of Battlefield. I'm pretty sure there will be a % range where G&W doesn't have time to finish his Nair or item-throw before he goes off the top, whereas Bowser's natural heaviness will allow him to survive. For longer-range KOs, will fare better than Bowser.

The momentum-cancelling just makes things.... complicated.... but it's not obvious how it should be compared to character weight.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if the bucket just cancels all momentum like that, wouldnt it be better to just wait for all the hitstun to wear off instead of trying an airial

very basic example

GaW gets hit by a foward smash and is in hit stun for 3 seconds, (this is way off but im just using round numbers to make sence of it all)
two seconds into hit stun you can n-air, but the n-air lasts two seconds
and he would be better off waiting the extra second and doing a bucket as soon as possible

thats a simple version of how it plays out in my mind

 

[ShadowLink84]

No, because tossing out an aerial allows you to act sooner than waiting for the hitstun to wear off.
if you perform an aerial then double jump, you'll cancel the momentum earlier than if you wait for hitstun to wear off.