Where's my MOTHER?

[PrettyGoodYear]

No, not by that logic. Swords are unbelievably easy to make unique. Two paralysis moves are not.

What fanservice would exist in PK Shield or PK Paralysis? Really, the only fanservice would be PK Teleport and PK Rockin'. There would be fanservice in PK Fire, Freeze, Ground, Thunder, and Starstorm, but not in Paralysis.

OK, for the last time: Paralysis WOULD NOT work the same way as disable. No. Uh uh. Nada.

Stun =/= Paralysis.

besides that, I'd like Hypnosis better, so I don't see why I even bother.

 

[espio87]

Lucas' PSI STYLE IN GENERAL uses hexagons (in MOTHER3),

nope, I just checked just in case and the only PK he uses that has hexagons in its animation is PK Love. the other PKs have in their animations circles, arrows, squares and octogons.

 

[Big-Cat]

No, not by that logic. Swords are unbelievably easy to make unique. Two paralysis moves are not.

What fanservice would exist in PK Shield or PK Paralysis? Really, the only fanservice would be PK Teleport and PK Rockin'. There would be fanservice in PK Fire, Freeze, Ground, Thunder, and Starstorm, but not in Paralysis.

Actually, fan service would be in PK Love and PK Rockin'. Also, since when is PSI really considered fan service.

 

[Ouendanation]

nope, I just checked just in case and the only PK he uses that has hexagons in its animation is PK Love. the other PKs have in their animations circles, arrows, squares and octogons.

Well... I haven't played MOTHER3 for a while. My memory must be getting worse >_>

 

[espio87]

Well... I haven't played MOTHER3 for a while. My memory must be getting worse >_>

well, at least it's good news, I mean Lucas is using an attack of his own!

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

That's pretty circular logic. PK Rockin and Love would be fanservice, but PK in general would not be?

If people didn't care about the moves, people wouldn't be discussing them.

We do not need the same move twice over if it can be helped.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

That's pretty circular logic. PK Rockin and Love would be fanservice, but PK in general would not be?

If people didn't care about the moves, people wouldn't be discussing them.

We do not need the same move twice over if it can be helped.

PK Rockin and love can be done differently

 

[Big-Cat]

PK Rockin and love can be done differently

Exactly.

PK Rockin' could be Ness making a guitar out of PSI and playing Pollyanna.

It's amazing that I'm disagreeing with him here but I'm agreeing with him at starmen.net on stickers.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

And Starstorm can be done extremely differently.

At what point is using the same move and just changing the properties of it good fanservice?

I'm sorry, but using the same move and changing its properties versus having to make very little creative changes to make a move workable is just completely inane when we have a good move that SHOULD be in a moveset. Rockin' is enough of a move. It'd be like giving Ness and Lucas Starstorm each, and making them different attacks regardless.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

And Starstorm can be done extremely differently.

At what point is using the same move and just changing the properties of it good fanservice?

I'm sorry, but using the same move and changing its properties versus having to make very little creative changes to make a move workable is just completely inane when we have a good move that SHOULD be in a moveset. Rockin' is enough of a move. It'd be like giving Ness and Lucas Starstorm each, and making them different attacks regardless.

But it's not the same move. (visually)

What part of that don't you understand?

EDIT:

Exactly.

PK Rockin' could be Ness making a guitar out of PSI and playing Pollyanna.

It's amazing that I'm disagreeing with him here but I'm agreeing with him at starmen.net on stickers.

You can be funny. Don't forget that Catherine Warwick would do vocals from the backround.

(You mention her so much she actually stuck in my mind )

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

It's the same concept!! Starstorm looks somewhat different too! Rockin' and Love are super-powerful, flashy energy attacks. Starstorm and Starstorm DX rain stars down.

There's no point in developing two same concepts into two different concepts. How is it original to use the same move twice? If looking different made it not a clone move, Dr. Mario's pill isn't a clone move either! It would have to basically be a completely different move to even remotely be original. And when you reach that point, you look back and realize you missed the exit to logic.

Starstorm is an original move, and under your version, would have no place whatsoever in Smash!

PK Fire for Lucas is pretty ****ed different from PK Fire for Ness, but they're still the same move. I do not get why it escapes you that differences in moves does not make them "different moves". They're the same idea, and it's boring, unoriginal, and you know what I'd say when I saw Love, after seeing Rockin'? "So basically, it's the same move with a different look. Wooow."

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

It's the same concept!! Starstorm looks somewhat different too! Rockin' and Love are super-powerful, flashy energy attacks. Starstorm and Starstorm DX rain stars down.

There's no point in developing two same concepts into two different concepts. How is it original to use the same move twice? If looking different made it not a clone move, Dr. Mario's pill isn't a clone move either! It would have to basically be a completely different move to even remotely be original. And when you reach that point, you look back and realize you missed the exit to logic.

Starstorm is an original move, and under your version, would have no place whatsoever in Smash!

PK Fire for Lucas is pretty ****ed different from PK Fire for Ness, but they're still the same move. I do not get why it escapes you that differences in moves does not make them "different moves". They're the same idea, and it's boring, unoriginal, and you know what I'd say when I saw Love, after seeing Rockin'? "So basically, it's the same move with a different look. Wooow."

You lack vision.

 

[Rakath]

Now, A Link to the Snitch, here is where they are coming from.

Let us, hypothetically, make Pikachu's moveset as such:

Special: Reversal
Side Special: Skull Bash
Down Special: Iron Tail
Up Special: Grass Knot (Tether Recovery)
Final Smash: Surf

Now, unlike Ness and Lucas with PK Fire/Thunder/Starstorm and PSI Magnet, all of these moves are Pikachu's moves, there are ways to get Pikachu to learn EACH AND EVERY ONE of these moves. Now, which moveset is better suited to please the fans: Mine or the current moveset?

The point is that Starstorm, and the Standard moves, is they are not LUCAS AND NESS'S MOVES. Making two versions of PK "Your name here" and making them different is infinitely better than Starstorm. As PK Rockin' Omega and PK Love Omega, even if they were similar, would be THE MOVES THEY ARE BEST KNOWN FOR! Its why Ness equips Yo-yos and a Baseball Bat for his Smashes, he does it in the games.

There is no reason to represent a character falsely if you can represent them correctly...

 

[espio87]

Now, A Link to the Snitch, here is where they are coming from.

Let us, hypothetically, make Pikachu's moveset as such:

Special: Reversal
Side Special: Skull Bash
Down Special: Iron Tail
Up Special: Grass Knot (Tether Recovery)
Final Smash: Surf

Now, unlike Ness and Lucas with PK Fire/Thunder/Starstorm and PSI Magnet, all of these moves are Pikachu's moves, there are ways to get Pikachu to learn EACH AND EVERY ONE of these moves. Now, which moveset is better suited to please the fans: Mine or the current moveset?

The point is that Starstorm, and the Standard moves, is they are not LUCAS AND NESS'S MOVES. Making two versions of PK "Your name here" and making them different is infinitely better than Starstorm. As PK Rockin' Omega and PK Love Omega, even if they were similar, would be THE MOVES THEY ARE BEST KNOWN FOR! Its why Ness equips Yo-yos and a Baseball Bat for his Smashes, he does it in the games.

There is no reason to represent a character falsely if you can represent them correctly...

well, but now the topic is going another way. I mean, what do you want most? the Mother series correctly represented? or Ness and Lucas correctly represented?
it's obvious if it's one it can't be the other. I prefer the Mother series correctly represented because it has a wider arc.

 

[Rakath]

well, but now the topic is going another way. I mean, what do you want most? the Mother series correctly represented? or Ness and Lucas correctly represented?
it's obvious if it's one it can't be the other. I prefer the Mother series correctly represented because it has a wider arc.

Ah, but you assume that representing a character correctly leaving out other portions of the game represents the series less. The only value that PK Rockin' Omega and PK Starstorm don't share is character. That, in this case, if PK Rockin' was done as the same move as Starstorm, only with music notes instead of meteors, it would inheirantly be more correct as Rockin' Omega is Ness's move, and Starstorm is not.

From a Mother series standpoint, Rockin' Omega and Starstorm (for Ness) are equal. And Love Omega and Starstorm (for Lucas) are just as equal. However the value of PK Love for Lucas, and the value for PK Starstorm for Lucas are not the same.

Some of the moves technically could be renamed (PSI Magnet could just be renamed PK Shield, and it'd be more correct even if we all know what the name used to be). Redo the Graphical appearance of PK Fire to being 'not firey' and it could be PK Rockin' Omega just as easy. Some might call them 'minor' or 'lazy' changes, but they would make the very minor Mother fan in me happier.

Remember, the only reason the Pikachu movelist I posted is 'slightly' more Pokemon representing is that Thunder Jolt isn't the name of a real move, but they could solve that by just naming it "Thunder Shock"... ^_^

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Vision? Rockin' and Love are the same moves. No one said "he couldn't". I am saying "he shouldn't".

And then you compare Starstorm to Grass Knot? The sheer number of Pokémoves vs. the number of EB moves should tell you that Starstorm is more important, and to say it doesn't deserve mention is just absurd.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Vision? Rockin' and Love are the same moves. No one said "he couldn't". I am saying "he shouldn't".

And then you compare Starstorm to Grass Knot? The sheer number of Pokémoves vs. the number of EB moves should tell you that Starstorm is more important, and to say it doesn't deserve mention is just absurd.

Yes, you lack vision. A bunch of swirling circles and lines would translate to a different move than a hexagon explosion.

 

[Rakath]

Vision? Rockin' and Love are the same moves. No one said "he couldn't". I am saying "he shouldn't".

And then you compare Starstorm to Grass Knot? The sheer number of Pokémoves vs. the number of EB moves should tell you that Starstorm is more important, and to say it doesn't deserve mention is just absurd.

Okay, I'll compare Hyper Beam to Starstorm? That better? And that's an even closer compare as Hyper Beam was the original power move in Pokemon, and a move Pikachu can't learn. So it has just as much in common with Pikachu as Starstorm has with Ness and Lucas: A game series.

I have no issue with Starstorm EXCEPT IT ISN'T SOMETHING NESS CAN LEARN. I would have as much problem with Sonic being able to glide via his hair as I do with Starstorm. And Sonic pulling out Shadow's Gun, and if Marth had Aether.

Characters like Zelda I can forgive, Zelda doesn't have any moves, she's never been playable. Her only move has been Light Arrow, WHICH SHE HAS. The Fire Emblem characters are using enough of the basic game animations somewhere to be able to get away with it too. Ness and Lucas have moves, their own moves, personal moves for them. They should use them.

I would be happy to see Starstorm happen when Kumatora or Poo pops out of an Assist. Or as a Final Smash if PK Rockin'/Love was used as a Standard Special. However the two most personal moves to the character not being made specials is just plain redonkulous!

 

[Big-Cat]

well, but now the topic is going another way. I mean, what do you want most? the Mother series correctly represented? or Ness and Lucas correctly represented?
it's obvious if it's one it can't be the other. I prefer the Mother series correctly represented because it has a wider arc.

Well, with the MOTHER series being correctly represented, Ness and Lucas would have accurate moves so picking either choice gives them a more faithful moveset.

 

[Big-Cat]

Sorry, double post.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

And they can't make brand new moves for Zelda?

They're the SAME concept. It's boring. If Starstorm got no representation, neither would Poo.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

And they can't make brand new moves for Zelda?

They're the SAME concept. It's boring. If Starstorm got no representation, neither would Poo.

Zelda has nothing to draw from. Ness has.

And Poo has no representation. His move is in the game. Squirtle has Water Gun, all Water Pokemon repped? No. Poo doesn't even have a trophy. Starstorm =/= Poo/Kumatora representation.

 

[Big-Cat]

Zelda has nothing to draw from. Ness has.

And Poo has no representation. His move is in the game. Squirtle has Water Gun, all Water Pokemon repped? No. Poo doesn't even have a trophy. Starstorm =/= Poo/Kumatora representation.

If anything, it's a giant middle finger to the fans of those characters.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

If anything, it's a giant middle finger to the fans of those characters.

I felt middle fingered in the original Smash Bros... I actually like Paula better than Ness :embarrass

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Starstorm is Poo's technique. Basically, in no situation would Poo EVER be represented through any single element of any of any characters in Brawl. Even if Paula got in, we wouldn't get Poo's signature move.

 

[Big-Cat]

Starstorm is Poo's technique. Basically, in no situation would Poo EVER be represented through any single element of any of any characters in Brawl. Even if Paula got in, we wouldn't get Poo's signature move.

I'm confused?

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Starstorm is Poo's technique. Basically, in no situation would Poo EVER be represented through any single element of any of any characters in Brawl. Even if Paula got in, we wouldn't get Poo's signature move.

By that logic, if they take Starstorm away from Ness and Lucas add Kumatora, and have her use Starstorm, Poo would still be repped?

Starstorm only reps starstorm, not Poo.

 

[Big-Cat]

By that logic, if they take Starstorm away from Ness and Lucas add Kumatora, and have her use Starstorm, Poo would still be repped?

Starstorm only reps starstorm, not Poo.

Do PK Rockin' and PK Love rep Ness and Lucas respectively or not? (serious question)

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Do PK Rockin' and PK Love rep Ness and Lucas respectively or not? (serious question)

Depends, do you mean something like Paula using PK Rockin and Kumatora using PK Love...?

 

[Big-Cat]

Depends, do you mean something like Paula using PK Rockin and Kumatora using PK Love...?

I guess, but I think the answer is no. However, if Ness and Lucas use their moves, it's representing them correctly.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Starstorm was introduced and given to Poo. Starstorm is thought of as "Poo's move" - was introduced for Poo, and is arguably more significant to the plot than any PSI move in the entire game, since his moves are the only ones that are plot-introduced.

The fact of the matter is that abandoning most of the most well-known PSI moves would be idiotic. Using the same moves and making them different is taking two steps forward, one step back. What is accomplished by forcing the characters to be similar despite the fact that your idea that using anything other than what he learns in the game is blasphemy.

Basically, the reference would be "Here's PSI Rockin', the cool main attack of Ness' that emits a huge blast of hexagon-shaped energy. And PK Love? Well, same thing, except different effect and it's Lucas', yeah yeah". Starstorm, Fire, Freeze, and Thunder are more interesting references, and forcing references to a move twice would be idiotic and a waste of time and space if they're going to make it a completely different move anyway. PK Love and Rockin' would share one trait - they'd be a fancy wall of hexagons. Different effect perhaps, different shapes, completely different, but people would notice that they're the same moves in spirit. Starstorm would be unique, no one, under any stretch of the imagination, could say "Starstorm is too similar to Rockin'!", because it's not. Fun > "Staying true to the source material". The only reason you want to apply this imaginary rule to Ness and Lucas is because of what fanbase you participate in. If you were Zelda fans, you'd want to give her at least made-up moves. If she didn't have any source material, she may as well have gotten the Hammer from LttP.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Starstorm was introduced and given to Poo. Starstorm is thought of as "Poo's move" - was introduced for Poo, and is arguably more significant to the plot than any PSI move in the entire game, since his moves are the only ones that are plot-introduced.

The fact of the matter is that abandoning most of the most well-known PSI moves would be idiotic. Using the same moves and making them different is taking two steps forward, one step back. What is accomplished by forcing the characters to be similar despite the fact that your idea that using anything other than what he learns in the game is blasphemy.

Basically, the reference would be "Here's PSI Rockin', the cool main attack of Ness' that emits a huge blast of hexagon-shaped energy. And PK Love? Well, same thing, except different effect and it's Lucas', yeah yeah". Starstorm, Fire, Freeze, and Thunder are more interesting references, and forcing references to a move twice would be idiotic and a waste of time and space if they're going to make it a completely different move anyway. PK Love and Rockin' would share one trait - they'd be a fancy wall of hexagons. Different effect perhaps, different shapes, completely different, but people would notice that they're the same moves in spirit. Starstorm would be unique, no one, under any stretch of the imagination, could say "Starstorm is too similar to Rockin'!", because it's not. Fun > "Staying true to the source material". The only reason you want to apply this imaginary rule to Ness and Lucas is because of what fanbase you participate in. If you were Zelda fans, you'd want to give her at least made-up moves. If she didn't have any source material, she may as well have gotten the Hammer from LttP.

Poo assist trophy with Starstorm. Anything else?

And Ness doesn't shoot hexagons...

And the spells fit Zelda who's associated with magic and the Triforce goddesses. No hammers there, unless you're Bobby with the bees.

And I'm a Zelda fan, happy with Zelda's moveset.

 

[Kiki52]

I would have liked a Poo assist trophy where he uses Mirror and turns into one of your enemies and fights like them for a few seconds.

But anyways I still wish that Ness and Lucas used more of their own moves instead of Paula and Kumatora's moves. Ness should use PK Rockin, Lucas can either use PK Starstorm or PK love or PK Ground as one of his moves. Ness should get PK Paralyze or PK Hyposis, and Ness should lose PK Thunder and get PK Teleport. PK Teleport would be great for Ness because that's his enterance and it'd be very helpful for recovery for him, and if he crashes into someone it'd do damage.

That way we could put Paula and Claus in there. Claus should have a totally different moveset, using his sword and stuff for most A attacks and his B attacks he should say "PK Thunder" or whatever he should just shoot a massive bolt of lightning out or something. He would remind me of Darth Vader.

Basically the less clonish characters are to each other the better. I was disappointed too to have 3 landmasters when Wolf doesn't even see nor ever go in a landmaster himelf in any of the games he is in. Ganondorf really is disappointing because he doesn't use his sword. Toon Link also could have had a whole bunch of different tools than regular Link too.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

There's no reason to double reference. Logically, Young Link and Adult Link don't need to be different, since they both get the same equipment. However, it would be more INTERESTING to see them doing different things.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

There's no reason to double reference. Logically, Young Link and Adult Link don't need to be different, since they both get the same equipment. However, it would be more INTERESTING to see them doing different things.

YES!!

Just like Lucas and Ness, with their own moves.

 

[espio87]

There's no reason to double reference. Logically, Young Link and Adult Link don't need to be different, since they both get the same equipment. However, it would be more INTERESTING to see them doing different things.

Like Toon Link performing a different Final Smash, for example using the power of the Four Swords to split in 4 and attack the enemies.

I guess, but I think the answer is no. However, if Ness and Lucas use their moves, it's representing them correctly.

yes, but for example I think Lucas is representing Mother 3 correctly. Not only he has his own attacks (the stick, and PK Love as his standard attacks) but he is also representing his party in the game (except for Boney, unless in one of his taunts he barks). He is using Kumatora's PK attacks and Duster's Snake Rope.
Ness on the other hand, could have had representation of his own (I believe).
If he had a moveset based on his own PK moves from earthbound, then I believe the Mother saga would be correctly represented. We would have one character that has a moveset originated from his attacks and the other character would have a moveset originated from an entire game.
would a representation like this make you happy?

 

[flyingmule]

Compared to series sales, Earthbound is actually overrepresented, and I believe Lucas is the only character in Brawl to appear in only one game-- a game that didn't even sell a million copies, at that.

 

[A Diamond For Disease]

Too bad Jeff is just an AT he would have made a great PC oh well maybe next time.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

What does that even MEAN?

Toon Link and Adult Link should be as different as possible while still retaining the most basic features - sword, shield, green clothing.

 

[espio87]

What does that even MEAN?

Toon Link and Adult Link should be as different as possible while still retaining the most basic features - sword, shield, green clothing.

I was just making a really simple example. The final smash was the only thing I could think about.