Why do "Casuals" care?

[Motoxpro]

So I've been trying to get better at the game and I found this place awhile back. I've pretty much just been using it for info and tips but one thing has been bothering me: Why do casuals care what other people are doing soooo much? Am I missing something? Are competitive players wavedashing into they're houses at night and forcing them to play with them?

The way I see it, obviously if they think "Advanced Techs" are sooo bad none of their friends use them and in turn they NEVER have to see them being done/have them done to them. I mean saying people NEED to play with items, not edgegaurd, spam attacks in certain situations, ect is pretty ridiculous seeing as how they probably just got done playing a game with their friend and come on smashboards for the first time and say something like "WHAT?! This is an OUTRAGE that people would even do this. This HAS to be stopped."

I mostly just play with my brother for now and we don't play with items just because it's annoying to me to have some street fighter guy pop out and punch me into oblivion, or have a flower pop out that shoots out flames, ect. Same with the levels I don't play the levels that kill me because its annoying to get killed by anything other than the person I'm fighting. But enlighten me, it's not that big of a deal but it just boggles my mind why someone would come onto a competitive forum and complain about the way people are playing

Also please don't take this as me trying to get you to play a certain way.

 

[Doomblaze]

Casuals care, very simply, because of how different Super Smash bros is to other fighting games. It was never meant to be a competitive game, but through our discoveries we have found that it can be and we have transformed it into one. The best one, I may add.

Super Smash bros games are very unlike Tekken and Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat because of a couple of reasons. Items is a huge one that brings in a factor of luck. The fact that random button mashing gets you killed instead of making you win is another.
It has items and is very unique because of it. Us "Pros" are turning them off, completely ignoring them in favor of a fair fight without hearts randomly spawning right in front of your enemy every 10 seconds. Some people find that wrong. Let them play how they play, and let us play how we do.

 

[gooseman]

"The best one, I may add"

Palm -> Face

Just stop right there, because I know exactly where it goes from here.

 

[Motoxpro]

You're missing my point. I know what they dont like about it but why do they care? What makes them want to come on smashboards everyday and tell people that they are play wrong? It's not like CS or Halo whre you are FORCED to play with people who use this stuff, the people who were complaining were complainging about melee which had NO online feature.

Edit: Also Doom, I'm pretty sure the casuals I'm talking about have'nt been playing fighting games since they were 3 because if they had I wouldnt be making this post.

 

[RedrappeR]

Essentially casual players care because of the accessibility and variety within it. They're basically afraid the game will turn imba, and pretty much go the MvC2 route, where about 3-5 characters of the entire cast can be used while picking the others is just essentially a dumb choice. They're worried the games going to gain more limitations from competitive play.

It's not necessarily true. After playing brawl-- it seems much more balanced than Melee was-- so I think we'll get a fairly varied competitive scene.

They just want the game to be fun, and are worried there' won't be a place for them in the community if we all tear the game into a no holds barred competative sport. And essentially we haven't been easing they're worry, more so as ignoring it entirely, and bashing them for existance, which really is just immature and stupid.

If a person's a casual player, that's fine. Same goes with the competitive types. We all have a different preference towards playing, and it's really just subjective how we take it.

And Doomblaze-- If you Button mash in street fighter, you're going to get owned... unless you just suck at the game.

 

[PwnyRide]

Why do we care?

Brawl was made to cater for Casuals, as it clearly lacks the features to satisfy a real competitive player and the competitive scene (in it's current state, at least). Melee outstrips Brawl in the true competitive sense. This is why scrubs care.

We should be asking you, why do you care.

EDIT: Also i'll ask you not to group all casuals into the 'scrub' definition. There ARE a few of us why respect the thoughts and oppinions of competitive players. You're acting like we're all complete idiots, and that is what starts flame-wars.

 

[gooseman]

I don't think the "casual" crowd has issue with the playstyle, per se. More that they have beef with those who deem themselves superior because of it, and tend to make carpet bomb-esque attacks.

For the record, I don't care how you play, I play with items on and off depending on my mood. I just prefer to give due credit, and while I may prefer Smash over pretty much any fighter this side of Super Turbo, calling it the "best competitive fighter" is a stretch.

 

[Thingy Person]

Why do we care?

Brawl was made to cater for Casuals, as it clearly lacks the features to satisfy a real competitive player. Melee outstrips Brawl in the true competitive sense. This is why we care.

We should be asking you, why do you care.

/facepalm

Is it unreasonable for people to try out what's new? Brawl is completely different from Melee, after all.

 

[Motoxpro]

Pwny, did you read the first of my post where I said I just started playing ssb? I'm not good so I definitely didnt call anyone a "Scrub".

I'd also like the quote this again because people are COMPLETELY missing my point.

You're missing my point. I know what they dont like about it but why do they care? What makes them want to come on smashboards everyday and tell people that they are play wrong? It's not like CS or Halo whre you are FORCED to play with people who use this stuff, the people who were complaining were complainging about melee which had NO online feature.

 

[PwnyRide]

/facepalm

Is it unreasonable for people to try out what's new? Brawl is completely different from Melee, after all.

Proving the TC's point.

EDIT: I know you didnt call anyone a scrub Motox, however what you described was the typical behavour of a scrub; telling people how they should play, and general whining about the competitive aspect of things, not all casual players do this. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Just really wanted to clear it up.

 

[gooseman]

Furthermore, in 99% of fighter series' improved balance and glitch-free gameplay are applauded. One reason people get pissed is that some people who fancy themselves "pros" want to call out these improvements as an attack on the fanbase.

Quite frankly, its absurd.

Either quit complaining and play Melee forever, or adapt, improve, and meet everyone else on their own ground. The "competitive" credo is a fair fight above all else, right?

Then learn to play without your precious (and often useless) "advanced techs."

 

[RedrappeR]

Why do we care?

Brawl was made to cater for Casuals, as it clearly lacks the features to satisfy a real competitive player and the competitive scene (in it's current state, at least). Melee outstrips Brawl in the true competitive sense. This is why scrubs care.

We should be asking you, why do you care.

EDIT: Also i'll ask you not to group all casuals into the 'scrub' definition. There ARE a few of us why respect the thoughts and oppinions of competitive players. You're acting like we're all complete idiots, and that is what starts flame-wars.

Please tell me when I grouped the casuals into the scrub defintion. Reread my post.

Secondly, it was made to be accessible to a casual crowd-- while still have the viability for a competitive game. You think I'm wrong?

Look at SFIV. Ono's saying about the same things as Sakurai. He's removed parrying-- possibly one of the most competitive aspects of third strike and replaced it with an entirely new system of gameplay-- all in order to appeal to the less "Hardcore" crowd, and to make newcomers have an easier time getting into the scene.

The only reason I'm telling this to you guys, is that a large number of competitive fighting game boards disagree with you about this. Which is fairly ironic. I expected better from some of you guys.(We've been through this whole debate already a month ago, Jesus.)

 

[PwnyRide]

Please tell me when I grouped the casuals into the scrub defintion. Reread my post.

Was not directed at you, sorry if you took it that way.

 

[Motoxpro]

Hmm can you guys maybe like reread my OP a few more times and keep these things in mind.

1. I dont care how you play
2. I'm not good so im not calling you bad
3. This game is not online so where do they have to deal with this stuff

We should be asking you, why do you care.

I dont, just asking for an explination on why you guys troll competitive forums.

 

[gooseman]

The reason Ono removed the Parry system was that it was an ill-concieved notion to begin with. 3S needed some kind of "hook" so they cooked up what went on to make 3S the worst game in the series.

Have you SEEN high level play in 3S? I mean, watched entire matches, not just the "Daigo's greatest moments" that clutter youtube. Its a turtlefest consisting of Ken, Chun-Li and Yun. Sometimes, if you're very, very, lucky and someone competing has some balls on him, you'll see a Q. That is NOT Street Fighter. I'm not claiming to be the be-all-end-all of SF, mind you. But I grew up with the game since it came out in '92, I'd like to THINK I have a clue as to what the f*ck SF really is.

The parry system needed to go. It had to go, go, GO. What we have in its place is a sort of super move/custom combo deal, which has depth beyond what you seem to be seeing. It works the same for everyone, but those with more skill can put it to better use. All in all, it emphasizes more aggressive play, and that is what SF always was to me.

In a way, you were right about your comparison of Brawl to SF4. Where you were wrong is in saying that those changes were made for the worse.

 

[PwnyRide]

Hmm can you guys maybe like reread my OP a few more times and keep these things in mind.

1. I dont care how you play
2. I'm not good so im not calling you bad
3. This game is not online so where do they have to deal with this stuff


I dont, just asking for an explination on why you guys troll competitive forums.

I give up

 

[Ionizer]

I'm a casual player, but once I get online and start seeing people do impossible **** that leaves me with my mouth agape and my defenses down, I'd like to speak up.

I personally do think that those "Advanced Techs" are glitches that were in the game and were not supposed to be used. I know many people will just say "if you're getting beaten by 'advanced techs' just learn to do them yourself!" My answer to that is that it was not meant to be in the game and therefore I should not have to learn how to do them to have fun in the game.

My main "competition" in Smash Bros are my sisters (who are 2 years younger than me) and my brother (who is five years younger). When I get good at playing them and we're on a relatively equal level, I think I'm pretty good. Then, when someone brings their console to the College's Cafeteria one day and loads up Smash Bros, I think I can play with them. I wind up getting my *** handed to me because they're doing things I didn't know existed, didn't want to learn and/or should not be in the game to begin with.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't mind. I just thought it'd be nice to get my opinion out into these boards.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

It's probably because what the Competitive scene decides to do, influences the wannabes, which in turn affects the everyday Smash player.

Everyone probably knows that one guy in their class/school, or if by chance he has an entire group of them who banded together, who all will never attend a tourney in their life, but regardless of that they're going to treat Smash Bros like SERIUS BUZINES, idolize <random tourney player>, live their life by the Tiers, and cry about the game not being played the way the Tourney players do.

So, based on what the Competitive scene does, all the wannabe competitives will mimic and take to a completely extreme level, and since all they can do is play the people around them, basically ruin it for anyone just trying to enjoy the game. (guffaw to himself when hearing that kids in his class don't know what wavedashing is, "hurrhurr u pla wit itemz u hav no skill, lawl", and god forbid you play a game with them and you play anything other than Fox, or Final Destination, and then baaaawwww if you beat him and make up ridiculous reasons why whatever options were on were hindering his skill, or if he wins, have no sense of sportsmanship with a "good game" or anything, simply criticize your lack of wavedashing, or explain how his mindgames trumped you)

So it's not necessarily hating on Tourneys, people who attend Tourneys, or the way you play in general (well, there -are- people who hate it for those reason), I think it's more because what kinds of things the Tourney does for legitimate reasons for the sake of fariness in a Tournament environment, results in complete douchebags around the average player having to deal with it on an extreme level.

 

[Superstarmario]

I think the main point is, if you never drag your *** to MLG or other competitive tourneys, why the hell do you care if items are on or not there? Casuals very vocally express how they hate stage banning, item banning, or advanced techniques. But these same people will never come to an advanced tourney. So why get so butthurt over a stage banning and people doing advanced techniques?

And don't use the online excuse. It remains a terrible one.

And this game sure as hell isn't dedicated toward a single audience. There is no way Smash was "meant" to be played. If Sakurai really wanted us to play with items, why would there be an option to take them off? There isn't in other fighters like One Piece Grand Battle Rush, or Power Stone. Why Smash? Because the emphasis since Smash 64 was that we were allowed to play how we wanted to. Fox only no items final destination or otherwise.

 

[MeloDeath]

Furthermore, in 99% of fighter series' improved balance and glitch-free gameplay are applauded. One reason people get pissed is that some people who fancy themselves "pros" want to call out these improvements as an attack on the fanbase.

Quite frankly, its absurd.

Either quit complaining and play Melee forever, or adapt, improve, and meet everyone else on their own ground. The "competitive" credo is a fair fight above all else, right?

Then learn to play without your precious (and often useless) "advanced techs."

Ok. Let's look at the definition of advanced techs. They are the techniques besides the ones that consist of shielding, and anything done with the shield. If you are going to call everything apart from fulljumped aerials and rolldodging useless, you might as well not bother to expect to be taken seriously by ANYONE.

We will not have to learn to be without advanced techs, because, frankly the game is deep enough to make new ones. (Just check out wolf ledge tricks).

And here comes the kicker. You all say THANK GOD THAT BRAWL HAS NO GLITCHES !! AWAY WITH THE WD.
But in reality, there are already alot of techniques, like the RAR, that ARE going to be implemented into peoples games. People that will play online. People that scrubs will be exposed to.
Now then, all these things can be seen as advanced techs, because they simply are.

The question to you is, you could learn these things, (they are not glitches and inso facto INTENDED TO BE POSSIBLE WITHIN THE GAME PHYSICS) but will you casuals be man enough to face brutal defeat or just learn them yourselves?

I think i know the answer, but we'll see....

It's probably because what the Competitive scene decides to do, influences the wannabes, which in turn affects the everyday Smash player.

Everyone probably knows that one guy in their class/school, or if by chance he has an entire group of them who banded together, who all will never attend a tourney in their life, but regardless of that they're going to treat Smash Bros like SERIUS BUZINES, idolize <random tourney player>, live their life by the Tiers, and cry about the game not being played the way the Tourney players do.

So, based on what the Competitive scene does, all the wannabe competitives will mimic and take to a completely extreme level, and since all they can do is play the people around them, basically ruin it for anyone just trying to enjoy the game. (guffaw to himself when hearing that kids in his class don't know what wavedashing is, "hurrhurr u pla wit itemz u hav no skill, lawl", and god forbid you play a game with them and you play anything other than Fox, or Final Destination, and then baaaawwww if you beat him and make up ridiculous reasons why whatever options were on were hindering his skill, or if he wins, have no sense of sportsmanship with a "good game" or anything, simply criticize your lack of wavedashing, or explain how his mindgames trumped you)

So it's not necessarily hating on Tourneys, people who attend Tourneys, or the way you play in general (well, there -are- people who hate it for those reason), I think it's more because what kinds of things the Tourney does for legitimate reasons for the sake of fariness in a Tournament environment, results in complete douchebags around the average player having to deal with it on an extreme level.

I know where you're coming from. Up untill now i've been an advanced tech crusader myself, because in melee, it made or breaked your playstyle. In brawl this will be far more subtle, but in fact, still as important.
((Winning in brawl is done by correct spacing, spacing is done with movement techniques (we are finding out techs in a fast pace) and the math done here concludes to this: Tech -> victory))

I know the whole psychoanalitical aspect of this is interesting too. We competitive players know that the way we play leads to better results. We are not forcing this onto others by definition...

BUT. Here comes the second kicker...
When a competitive player beats a scrub, they usually COMPLAIN about all those things being UNFAIR and whatnot.
--------in order to not be viewed as utterly inferior to competitives, they should not do this.

I hope my ranting has been clear.

 

[Mic_128]

Why do casuals care what other people are doing soooo much?

Replace 'casuals' with 'Humans' and you've got the answer.

 

[Sirami]

Casuals care, very simply, because of how different Super Smash bros is to other fighting games. It was never meant to be a competitive game, but through our discoveries we have found that it can be and we have transformed it into one. The best one, I may add.

Super Smash bros games are very unlike Tekken and Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat because of a couple of reasons. Items is a huge one that brings in a factor of luck. The fact that random button mashing gets you killed instead of making you win is another.
It has items and is very unique because of it. Us "Pros" are turning them off, completely ignoring them in favor of a fair fight without hearts randomly spawning right in front of your enemy every 10 seconds. Some people find that wrong. Let them play how they play, and let us play how we do.

*Epic face-palm*

 

[MeloDeath]

*Epic face-palm*

I second that. But i disagree with everybody's sense of entitlement here. What is the point in facepalming someone without explaining why ? Cmon, you ought to be better than that.

But via-via, the buttonmashing thing is not true. It's exactly like saying that rolldodging and smashing wins you tournaments in melee or brawl... it's utterly rediculous.

 

[Mercury]

it's not just casuals; anyone with an outspoken opinion makes what they think abundantly clear on the internet, casual or competitive player. it's just what happens when ignorant people realize that they can be heard and not affected by their actions. you can tell the ignorant people from the rest, because they don't give reasons for why they think a certain way, and they don't just say "this is the way it is" or just "wow you are so stupid for thinking like that."

 

[Artillery]

Ok. Let's look at the definition of advanced techs. They are the techniques besides the ones that consist of shielding, and anything done with the shield. If you are going to call everything apart from fulljumped aerials and rolldodging useless, you might as well not bother to expect to be taken seriously by ANYONE.

We will not have to learn to be without advanced techs, because, frankly the game is deep enough to make new ones. (Just check out wolf ledge tricks).

And here comes the kicker. You all say THANK GOD THAT BRAWL HAS NO GLITCHES !! AWAY WITH THE WD.
But in reality, there are already alot of techniques, like the RAR, that ARE going to be implemented into peoples games. People that will play online. People that scrubs will be exposed to.
Now then, all these things can be seen as advanced techs, because they simply are.

The question to you is, you could learn these things, (they are not glitches and inso facto INTENDED TO BE POSSIBLE WITHIN THE GAME PHYSICS) but will you casuals be man enough to face brutal defeat or just learn them yourselves?

I think i know the answer, but we'll see....




I know where you're coming from. Up untill now i've been an advanced tech crusader myself, because in melee, it made or breaked your playstyle. In brawl this will be far more subtle, but in fact, still as important.
((Winning in brawl is done by correct spacing, spacing is done with movement techniques (we are finding out techs in a fast pace) and the math done here concludes to this: Tech -> victory))

I know the whole psychoanalitical aspect of this is interesting too. We competitive players know that the way we play leads to better results. We are not forcing this onto others by definition...

BUT. Here comes the second kicker...
When a competitive player beats a scrub, they usually COMPLAIN about all those things being UNFAIR and whatnot.
--------in order to not be viewed as utterly inferior to competitives, they should not do this.

I hope my ranting has been clear.

Well, atm, I am playing as a casual player who intends to go hardcore in a couple of months or so(trying to enjoy my game without abusing those winning techniques) so I can maybe shed some light on this dissagreement. Divide tournaments into COMPETETIVE and CASUAL tournies, so you do not have to keep arguing. If the casual is daring, let him go to competetive. If the competetive will not fight with advanced techs, then go to casual. Easy enough? Competetive can play with stage bans/no items/etc. and casual can do whatever it wants. When putting up a challenge, make it clear whether you are casual or competetive so no complaining/snobbery takes place. And yes, some competetive techniques are not meant to be in the game. Some where made to be put in the game as an extremely advanced game mechnic. You cannot possibly claim they where ALL in on purpose. Some advanced techniques may be accepted by casual players. Some may not. Agree which ones are legal and play on those rules. Keep the main bulk of adv. techniques in advanced battles so that you can play fair. If the casual player wants to remain casual, play for fun, and be on equal ground, then go ahead. Competetive players, lower your game and play on equal ground. Isn't that why you all ban items/some stages? To be on equal footing. So why not lower your game to be on equal footing with the casual player for a match or two? It won't kill you And if you all want to have the casual/competetive barrier taken out of the way completely, reach an agreement, like ban the most hazardous stages like flat zone 2. Ban the most unfair items you can think of(smash ball could possibly be a yes or no option, no?) and regulate MOST of the advanced techniques and save them for clearly competetive matches where the following regulations are the standard competetive matches. Meanwhile, the casual player may just have to learn an advanced technique or two to stay on even footing and be fair to the competetive player, who admitedly does give up on some of his props on the competetive side. But afterall, you DO get limitations on items/stages so I guess it could be counted as even. Anyway, you may or may not have to learn 1-2 advanced techniques. Overall, this would make it fairer, wouldn't it? It still has a small amount of the element of luck which the creators obviously wanted in the game with the side of competetiveness and casualness.

 

[Dogysamich]

-i didnt bother reading anybody's post-

Why do "causals" care?

Eh, probably because the "definition" of casual is

1) Buy the game
2) Open the game
3) Pop the game in the system
4) Play

By that definition, the casual gamer gets to see the game "as it was intended to be" fresh out of the box.

So, the casual by every games standards should be the same. What changes is obviously the tourney set.

if a casual goes to a CvS2 tourney, they're not going to feel TOO out of place (unless they only play 3v3, but that's another story for another day). if a casual goes to a MvC2, they're not going to feel TOO out of place (again, another story for another day)

Take a Brawl casual to a tourney, and you get what all the scrubs, nubs, trolls, and 4chan kids alike whine about. "OH MY GOD YOU TOOK MY ITEMS, YOU TOOK MY SMASH BALLS. WHERE'S WARIO'S STAGE? WAAAAAAAAH"

Smash is the only game where, in large, a majority of the game is taken away during legit competitive play. Is that a bad thing? Um... no, it kinda has to be done if brawl wants any shot at being "competitive".

____
But as for the casual gamer itself.

Look at the casual gamer for Brawl and then look at the casual gamer for ANY OTHER BIG NAME COMPETITIVE GAME EVER IN THE HISTORY OF MAINSTREAM COMPETITIVE GAMING.

"What do you mean dogy?"

Look at the "casual gamer" him/herself compared to the casual game of

Unreal Tournament
Marvel vs Capcom 2
Starcraft
Halo
Guitar Hero
Counter Strike

etc, etc, etc (you get what im aiming at here).

In EVERY OTHER GAME EVER BROUGHT TO THE PUBLIC EYE OF COMPETITIVE GAMING, the game itself was a game made for and aimed at the older "gaming generation" of it's time. Where as brawl is the is "in large" aimed at the younger portion of the generation. (and no, you cant try to convince me that it is aimed at a majority of the population with cracked out stages like the Warioware stage XD)

 

[Sirami]

Good point Dogy, but should a cracked out anything be aimed at younger people?

Hehe.

That is a really good point. If I'm playing MvC2 with somebody that isn't that great, we just load up the game, and we start playing. He tries out all his stuff, and loses.

In Smash, if somebody challenges me to a 1v1, I expect items to be off and to only play on certain stages. When that same MvC2 player comes over and plays me, notices that items are off, and that we're only playing on certain stages, he gets to thinking "something's different!"

And when a person can pass the blame of defeat onto anything else, they often will, to save their ego.

 

[MeloDeath]

Well, atm, I am playing as a casual player who intends to go hardcore in a couple of months or so(trying to enjoy my game without abusing those winning techniques) so I can maybe shed some light on this dissagreement. Divide tournaments into COMPETETIVE and CASUAL tournies, so you do not have to keep arguing. If the casual is daring, let him go to competetive. If the competetive will not fight with advanced techs, then go to casual. Easy enough? Competetive can play with stage bans/no items/etc. and casual can do whatever it wants. When putting up a challenge, make it clear whether you are casual or competetive so no complaining/snobbery takes place. And yes, some competetive techniques are not meant to be in the game. Some where made to be put in the game as an extremely advanced game mechnic. You cannot possibly claim they where ALL in on purpose. Some advanced techniques may be accepted by casual players. Some may not. Agree which ones are legal and play on those rules. Keep the main bulk of adv. techniques in advanced battles so that you can play fair. If the casual player wants to remain casual, play for fun, and be on equal ground, then go ahead. Competetive players, lower your game and play on equal ground. Isn't that why you all ban items/some stages? To be on equal footing. So why not lower your game to be on equal footing with the casual player for a match or two? It won't kill you And if you all want to have the casual/competetive barrier taken out of the way completely, reach an agreement, like ban the most hazardous stages like flat zone 2. Ban the most unfair items you can think of(smash ball could possibly be a yes or no option, no?) and regulate MOST of the advanced techniques and save them for clearly competetive matches where the following regulations are the standard competetive matches. Meanwhile, the casual player may just have to learn an advanced technique or two to stay on even footing and be fair to the competetive player, who admitedly does give up on some of his props on the competetive side. But afterall, you DO get limitations on items/stages so I guess it could be counted as even. Anyway, you may or may not have to learn 1-2 advanced techniques. Overall, this would make it fairer, wouldn't it? It still has a small amount of the element of luck which the creators obviously wanted in the game with the side of competetiveness and casualness.

Good post, though next time, pleaaaase apply paragraphs.. this is so tiring XD

Anyways, i dont claim that all advanced techs (to be found in the future that is) are meant to be in the game, but i'm saying that if they couldnt have made Brawl "glitch" free, they are obviously not that hellbent on making it a boring and utterly sterile game (by that i mean a game that casuals would want brawl to be).

-----------And thus -> they DID'NT NOT mean to put in physics that support weird techs.

I agree with the tournament seperation, however asking a comp (competitive) to not use advanced is really like asking a Math teacher to say 2+2=26, he just has too much honor to do something he sees as false. In this case false is more definite than what we are discussing... anyways, you get the point.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Competetive players, lower your game and play on equal ground. Isn't that why you all ban items/some stages? To be on equal footing. So why not lower your game to be on equal footing with the casual player for a match or two?

Items have never really irked me that much in the Smash Bros. games. Me and my friends still play with items turned on, because we really aren't trying to preserve our egos so much that losing to a friend stumbling upon a particular item would ruin our enjoyment of the game. Sure there have been many moments where items have turned the tides of our games, but we generally know that the victim would do the same thing if given the opportunity, and that the random luck associated with obtaining the contextually significant item to the situation you're in is as much a part of the game itself as its characters.

Of course that doesn't mean I'm oblivious to the fact that no-item matches are much better at gauging a person's skill with a character against their opponents'. Of that there is no doubt. It's just that items add variety to our fights, without being lame enough to descend the game into something like Mario Party, but adding enough flavour to extend its lastability.

Still that whole perspective might change when Brawl comes around here and we get exposed to Smash Balls. And there's a small agreement among us that Food and Maxim Tomatoes are annoying and best left out of the fight...

 

[MeloDeath]

Items have never really irked me that much in the Smash Bros. games. Me and my friends still play with items turned on, because we really aren't trying to preserve our egos so much that losing to a friend stumbling upon a particular item would ruin our enjoyment of the game. Sure there have been many moments where items have turned the tides of our games, but we generally know that the victim would do the same thing if given the opportunity, and that the random luck associated with obtaining the contextually significant item to the situation you're in is as much a part of the game itself as its characters.

Of course that doesn't mean I'm oblivious to the fact that no-item matches are much better at gauging a person's skill with a character against their opponents'. Of that there is no doubt. It's just that items add variety to our fights, without being lame enough to descend the game into something like Mario Party, but adding enough flavour to extend its lastability.

Still that whole perspective might change when Brawl comes around here and we get exposed to Smash Balls. And there's a small agreement among us that Food and Maxim Tomatoes are annoying and best left out of the fight...

Sweet post. I love the fact that you kept your tone positive, not many of us can say that of ourselves. You are right, if you dont feel like you have to prove your skill as much as comps do, items are fine.
They do add levity to the game. I mean when i play with items, which is rarely, i turn them to very low, thats just enough to shake things up a bit and still keep the overal skillgauging capacities of smash intact. Let's see how Brawl will affect that sentiment.

 

[Doomblaze]

But via-via, the buttonmashing thing is not true. It's exactly like saying that rolldodging and smashing wins you tournaments in melee or brawl... it's utterly rediculous.

My English isnt great, so i might have said something wrong.

I meant on a casual level, when you button-mash in melee/brawl, you kill yourself (fox's side-b anyone?), and when you button-mash in other games, you can actually do damage to the opponent.

Rolldodging and smashing does win tournaments when used alongside everything else in ones arsenal...

 

[Waddle]

It's because they feel that their words can make it all go away. LOL.

 

[ObeseNightmare]

You're missing my point. I know what they dont like about it but why do they care? What makes them want to come on smashboards everyday and tell people that they are play wrong? It's not like CS or Halo whre you are FORCED to play with people who use this stuff, the people who were complaining were complainging about melee which had NO online feature.

Edit: Also Doom, I'm pretty sure the casuals I'm talking about have'nt been playing fighting games since they were 3 because if they had I wouldnt be making this post.

I don't know about other people, but when I come on I just voice my opinion (which is what a forum is for... right?)
I personally like playing with items and for fun. I do understand though, that some people like wave dashing and all the cool moves they can do... I wavedashed once (by accident, but I only knew because my friend was researching all the cool moves and told me) but it's no big deal to me how you play, you paid for the game, you play how you want.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Furthermore, in 99% of fighter series' improved balance and glitch-free gameplay are applauded. One reason people get pissed is that some people who fancy themselves "pros" want to call out these improvements as an attack on the fanbase.

Quite frankly, its absurd.

Either quit complaining and play Melee forever, or adapt, improve, and meet everyone else on their own ground. The "competitive" credo is a fair fight above all else, right?

Then learn to play without your precious (and often useless) "advanced techs."

*facepalm*

First of all, balance =/= deep, competitive game. Read this line over a few times.

Guess what. Dragon Ball Z Tenkaichi is fairly balanced. But you know why that is? It's because ALL the characters are shallow and play similarly. Who cares if its balanced? It is still shallow and not worth playing competitively.

PROTIP: Many of the popular fighting games are rather unbalanced. Marvel vs Capcom 2, Capcom vs SNK 2, and Street Fighter 3 come to mind among other games.
But we play them anyway because they are deep games.

Second, advanced techs aren't glitches. None of them are. Not even wave dashing. You lose credibility when you make ignorant claims like this.

Third, you don't help anyone by telling people not to complain. Everyone has the right to argue about how they feel. You don't have to respond.
And no the competitive credo is not about having a fair fight necessarily. It is about putting all your skills and strategies to the test to overcome your opponent. That's pretty much it. We don't care about what is "fair" as long as randomness is not involved.

And the last part makes me lol. Anyone who calls advanced techs useless needs to play against Mew2King or PC Chris. When they destroy you with their short hop double fairs, short hop lasers, pillaring, shine spiking, and the like, you will see how "useless" advanced techs are.

 

[ObeseNightmare]

I don't mind AT's, I just can't do them myself.

 

[Aberu]

Why do we care?

Brawl was made to cater for Casuals, as it clearly lacks the features to satisfy a real competitive player and the competitive scene (in it's current state, at least). Melee outstrips Brawl in the true competitive sense. This is why scrubs care.

We should be asking you, why do you care.

EDIT: Also i'll ask you not to group all casuals into the 'scrub' definition. There ARE a few of us why respect the thoughts and oppinions of competitive players. You're acting like we're all complete idiots, and that is what starts flame-wars.

1 month and it clearly lacks the features huh. How long did it take with Melee to discover techs entirely and the abusiveness of them? At least 6 months to a year. Cmon people. Even then barely anyone knew them until that next year. And I do remember very many people on various game forums back then even complaining that melee wasn't as good as SSB64.

You brawl haters can live in the past all you want. You are just comparable to people that still play SSB64 in spite of new releases, to me. Even then I don't really care in the end. God I played with some "pro" who had won some locals. He was good at all the techs. Our group of friends never learned them. We played with our rules, then his. With melee we used items on 10 stock. We beat him consistently, not luckily, consistently. He didn't know how to play with items on honestly. Then we played with his rules, 3 stock, no items. We beat him, consistently, because the normal extreme pressure of items was now not there, it felt super easy to play.

Point being, "pros" are "pros" and not pros. Everything is subjective. The guy knew techs, and was pompously laughing at us for not using them, as we beat him into submission, this guy who had won locals in southern california losing consistently with different rulesets to a bunch of "scrubs" who weren't playing the same way as him. Now I'm not going to take his example and say all "pros" are like that. But maybe the ones who have maybe won a local, participated and lost to real pros who win and know how to abuse the techs properly, keep showing up in threads like this, and love to call casuals scrubs, and put them all down. Get over yourself, there's always someone better, and even 5 years into a game being out, there is no "best" way to play.

 

[Scar]

@Aberu, what an annoying post. You're completely correct in saying that "pro" players shouldn't come in and call people scrubs. It's stupid. But it's even stupid that you're telling me that you beat someone who won a local tournament in a completely different game. stfu, get over yourself.

Competitive Melee is a different game than Casual Melee and that's that. The skills in either only translate to a certain extent.

Brawl haters are not living in the past, I hate this line. We play Brawl for fun, just not competitively, because it isn't competitive.

 

[Chaosblade77]

You keep saying people are missing your point, but this is like asking why murder is wrong, it just is.

No one in this topic is going to admit "I dislike how competitive players play" just because of the nature of the topic, it would obviously lead to them getting piled by people who support the way competitive players play the game.

I am one of the casuals who not only accepts that competitive players don't use items and ban certain stages, because there are some stages I hate and don't play on as well, they tend to be the totally random and interfering ones. I also played Melee with items off most of the time, and even though I play with many on in Brawl, that won't last.

But that doesn't mean I, or anyone else, can really answer "why" people care what other people think or do even when it doesn't affect them in the least.

 

[Hutsetsugen!]

Why is this discussion still going on?
Gooseman pretty much /thread back on the first page, ladies and gentlemen.

He's absolutely right.

 

[kingofping4]

Casuals care because the way the tourneys play DOES affect them. It trickles down. As someone said earlier, there will be the "pro" types that never go to tournaments, but they play tourney style anyways just to destroy any casuals they come across. This affects the casuals because now they can't win so what's the point in playing?

I have quite a few friends who quit playing melee because we met a few of these "pro" types and suddenly no one else ever wins. Sure we'll play some when those guys aren't around, but as soon as the "pros" show up everyone loses interest.

So yes, high level play DOES affect low level play. People want to have fun, and when there is no chance of winning the fun usually goes out the window.