castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
wolf ***** fox.
at least my wolf ***** foxes
at least my wolf ***** foxes
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Why is wolf high tier?
- Thread starter MetallicFalcon
- Start date
Only real HARD counters are Pika and Sheik, the ZSS dsmash is easier to avoid than getting grabbed by the Ice Climbers. If we're going to start claiming hard counter because of possible lock that are really hard to land.....then we might as well say the Icies are a hard counter for anyone but Zelda and MK<_<. Sheik, Pika, and ZSS aren't very common in tournaments anyways. DDD on the other hand........is. I don't even really consider Sheik to be a true hard counter because if Fox avoids the ftilt, he pretty much has a better moveset than Sheik and it's easy to come back down a stock at any time. It's similar to the Wolf-Sheik matchup, it seems a hard counter but if the Fox understands the matchup it is close to even.
MK and G&W are difficult matchups, but they're not HARD counters(lock or zero to death), you like to exaggerate things when it favors your opinions.
Fox goes even with Snake, DDD, and ROB.....thats's half of the top tier right there. Falco boards just recently discussed the Fox matchup and we both agreed to a 55-45 Falco advantage.......certainly not "bad". So that's 4 characters in the current list from the top tier that Fox does well against. If you were going to list actual difficult matchups for Fox instead of sounding ignorant and saying Snake and Falco.....you should have said Lucario and Marth. Those two are significantly more difficult for Fox than Kirby, Falco, and Snake.
No matter how disadvantaged Fox is in a match, he's always going to be in the mix because of three moves.......dair, utilt, and usmash. He can put 50% on any given character in the blink of an eye and set up for the early kill to keep him in it.
Fox has better KO power, a faster moveset, and his recovery isn't s***. Wolf has one aerial that's better than Fox, but Fox actually has 5 good aerials. Also, Wolf might be faster than Fox in the air, but Foxs' run speed enables him to tech chase like Wolf could never dream of. Their pretty close character-wise, which is evidenced by how close they are on the tier list.
M@v
Subarashii!
I actually think lucario isnt too bad. Marth strips me of my dignity though. Fox can do almost nothing against him; Marth up bs everything.
§witch
Smash Lord
Lol, not at all.
ZSS' dsmash chain only works if it's started significantly before 40%.
Fox KOs a million times betetr than wolf btw, wolf is not faster I don't know where you came up with that. And I know you aren't talking running speed.
I'm pretty sure the faster thing was supposed to mean how fast the attacks come out. And Wolf KOs about the same as Fox (dsmash vs usmash), it's just that dsmash depends on how close you are to the ledge because it kills horizontally. Wolf definitely has better back-up kill moves though, and Fox can definitely gimp better even though he lacks a spike.
Fox' KO power is much better than Wolfs, Ishy. The only thing I'll 100% agree on where Fox is better
@§witch
Wolf relys on his speed more than Fox does. Fox is more based around his usmash and early KOs from what I've seen, while Wolf focuses and fast succesion of SHFF Bairs.
@§witch
Wolf relys on his speed more than Fox does. Fox is more based around his usmash and early KOs from what I've seen, while Wolf focuses and fast succesion of SHFF Bairs.
ADHD
Smash Hero
We need some more dededes to step it up I guess
Foxs' bair and dsmash are also good KO moves. A dsmash by the edge at high percents guarantees a death against most of the cast.
Fox actually has his shine and his dair which are both semi-spikes.
After actually taking the time to think through my argument, I'm going to conclude that they have roughly equal killing power overall. Gimping still goes to Fox though.
I counted bair as gimping initially, since I assumed most of its kills would come from offstage use. Wolf's dsmash by the ledge = fox's usmash; fox's dsmash by the ledge = wolf's uair, in terms of killing power APPROXIMATELY, and out of those, I'd say fox's usmash is the hardest to land, but still nothing too difficult. Wolf's utilt and usmash CAN function, just like fox's uair and fsmash, but they aren't as easy to connect with overall.
For gimps, fox's shine > wolf's shine. Wolf's bair, and nair to a lesser extent, are near useless offstage against anyone who knows to DI up, but fox's bair is a monster regardless. Wolf's dair is good, but just not something that'll be connected often. I was referring to spikes only before, not semispikes, so yeah. And fox's dair is pretty weak in that regard, but still has viable offstage use.
I counted bair as gimping initially, since I assumed most of its kills would come from offstage use. Wolf's dsmash by the ledge = fox's usmash; fox's dsmash by the ledge = wolf's uair, in terms of killing power APPROXIMATELY, and out of those, I'd say fox's usmash is the hardest to land, but still nothing too difficult. Wolf's utilt and usmash CAN function, just like fox's uair and fsmash, but they aren't as easy to connect with overall.
For gimps, fox's shine > wolf's shine. Wolf's bair, and nair to a lesser extent, are near useless offstage against anyone who knows to DI up, but fox's bair is a monster regardless. Wolf's dair is good, but just not something that'll be connected often. I was referring to spikes only before, not semispikes, so yeah. And fox's dair is pretty weak in that regard, but still has viable offstage use.
You keep saying "by the edge", Foxs' usmash is a vertical killer, which is better than a horizontal killer. Horizontal KO moves can be DI'ed extremely well, that's why you see people living fairly high against MK's dsmash.
Fox has better KO power than Wolf, simple as that. Just accept that he does and stop trying to argue the point. The only time Wolf kills at the same percents as Fox is if he's by the edge and his opponent has no clue how to DI.
Fox has better KO power than Wolf, simple as that. Just accept that he does and stop trying to argue the point. The only time Wolf kills at the same percents as Fox is if he's by the edge and his opponent has no clue how to DI.
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
i don't think anyone denies that fox has greater KOing power than wolf.
Silver13
Smash Cadet
Wolf's foot for god tier ftw... Bair FTW!! Also Wolf's Claws for God tier... Dsmash FTW!!
Also... Wolf >>>> Fox, newbz
Also... Wolf >>>> Fox, newbz
Marsulas, sorry if it seems like I'm arguing, but I'm just stating my point of view and clarifying what I meant because I'm (very) bad with communicating my thoughts >.> So apologies if I sound like a moron at times.
'By the edge' was referring to the dsmashs only. Fox's primary kill move is better than Wolf's, but Wolf's backups are better than Fox's, because of DI on horizontal hits (as you mentioned). I also find Wolf's dsmash easier to land than Fox's usmash because it's safer and can be used well out of a jab cancel, but I guess that's not really the point.
If we're speaking ONLY primary kill moves (which makes sense for high levels of play), Fox can kill better in terms of %, just so that you know that I at least agree on that much. I'm just saying that wolf's backups being a bit better make killing power more even on lower levels of play where people won't be able to set up for their main kill move as well.
tl;dr:
Fox has better kill power, but I was referring to the ease of landing the moves and the backup moves as well. At top levels of play, Fox undeniably has better kill power, the rest of the stuff just has more of an impact on a lower level, which is coincidentally my level. So you were right, but I was just referring to something slightly different/more general, which caused confusion.
I'm not one to debate too much, so I'm done now, and I agree that Fox has better kill power.
'By the edge' was referring to the dsmashs only. Fox's primary kill move is better than Wolf's, but Wolf's backups are better than Fox's, because of DI on horizontal hits (as you mentioned). I also find Wolf's dsmash easier to land than Fox's usmash because it's safer and can be used well out of a jab cancel, but I guess that's not really the point.
If we're speaking ONLY primary kill moves (which makes sense for high levels of play), Fox can kill better in terms of %, just so that you know that I at least agree on that much. I'm just saying that wolf's backups being a bit better make killing power more even on lower levels of play where people won't be able to set up for their main kill move as well.
tl;dr:
Fox has better kill power, but I was referring to the ease of landing the moves and the backup moves as well. At top levels of play, Fox undeniably has better kill power, the rest of the stuff just has more of an impact on a lower level, which is coincidentally my level. So you were right, but I was just referring to something slightly different/more general, which caused confusion.
I'm not one to debate too much, so I'm done now, and I agree that Fox has better kill power.
I agree, Wolf has a significantly easier time landing the KO move. As a Fox player, it can be extremely hard to land the kill in some matchups.
Good post.
Thanks. Today's been a day where I've been getting exceptionally frustrated about not making sense and all that, it's nice to know it worked for once
In other news, I hear the tier list gets updated the 5th of January. It looks like pit, wolf, TL, and peach will be battling it out in between high and mid tier Seems like most put wolf somewhere in the top half of mid tier.
Which is funny ... Wolf did get rid of an extremely bad match-up after all...
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
Wolf isn't seeing any significant tourney results. No Wolf mains place well at credible east coast tournaments, for example.
R.O.B: Ninjalink kinda
Marth: Neo, Azen
Wario: Reflex, Afrothundah
Diddy: Ninjalink
DK: Bum
Kirby: Chudat
Pikachu: Anther
IC: ???
Pit: ???
Wolf: ??? People might break him out for an occasional friendly, MM, or counterpick(Chillin).
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Tiers aren't based solely on tournament results. Its based on potential. And Wolf has insane range.
Azen could if he really wanted to......but it's Azen. I think most players on the EC just don't want to deal with DDD.
I know Lain ***** people with the Ice Climbers.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
u cant put me as 'R.O.B kinda' when i use him more than diddy but anyway. I use wolf in tourney but i dont count because i dont main him also everyone puts me down as diddy regardless if i use him in tourney or not......stoopit ppl.
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
You're most famous for your Diddy, that's probably why haha xD
Oh and I hear that Wolf counters Olimar, this correct?
Oh and I hear that Wolf counters Olimar, this correct?
If the olimar isn't BlackWaltz, yes. Blaster spam all day.
HAY GAIZ, TIER LIST 2.0 SAYS WE AREN'T HIGH TIER ANYMORE Q.Q
We're D tier. Basically, 20/36, mid tier. Discuss.
We're D tier. Basically, 20/36, mid tier. Discuss.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
We have like only 1 hard counter now being dedede and its still a winnable matchup. Theres a way to beat falcos chaingrab now so I think wolf should have gone up instead of down.
Yeah... I think Wolf should be a bit higher, but he's grouped in a tier with a bunch of characters that I can see as his equals. Link for reference: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6280608#post6280608
I mean, I don't claim to know much about other characters, but it does seem pretty accurate as far as who's above us, and by how much. Wolf is still somewhat tournament viable.
I mean, I don't claim to know much about other characters, but it does seem pretty accurate as far as who's above us, and by how much. Wolf is still somewhat tournament viable.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
I agree. And I still dont believe that captain falcon is the worst, in the tournament results before and after he wasnt the lowest.
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
Interesting. Falco and Marth moved up higher than I expected.
AssaultX
Smash Apprentice
Wow. Lots of movements in the list. And a lot of new tiers too T_T. So I guess it's fair to say we're currently at the bottom of middle tier?
^ Sounds about right, low-mid. Technically, we got 7.91/15, so we should be solid mid tier, depends on how you want to look at it.
F tier is a mess though.
F tier is a mess though.
AssaultX
Smash Apprentice
Ok then. Now we can discuss why Wolf is middle tier!!! Shall we?
Edit: IMO the reason why Wolf went so downward is might be due to how slow our metagame is grwoing. Unless I am missing something?
Edit: IMO the reason why Wolf went so downward is might be due to how slow our metagame is grwoing. Unless I am missing something?
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
Don't worry guys. Wolf is one of the most underrated characters. They just haven't seen a good wolf play before.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
I would rather discuss why he should be high tier.
AssaultX
Smash Apprentice
Agreed. I really don't see any reason why he should be pushed down to bottom-mid anyway.
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
More than likely, the reason he wasn't put as high up on the tier list was due to lack of good Wolf players placing. I mean... yeah, no one consistency places with him now. However I'm sure that he will as soon as some people get better.
M@v
Subarashii!
im pretty sure its something like this:
SS-god tier
S-awesome tier
A-Top tier
B&C high tier
D&E mid tier
F and below- low
So wolf is about the middle of mid tier.
SS-god tier
S-awesome tier
A-Top tier
B&C high tier
D&E mid tier
F and below- low
So wolf is about the middle of mid tier.
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
Bottom of high tier to middle of mid tier. Oh wellz.
Captain Sa10
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2007
- Messages
- 390
For one thing, there still isn't enough good wolf tournament rankings going around other then a select few, which is what is also affecting or rank. IMO we should be higher, in fact, better, and still in high tier even if it's only bottom. Im **** sure we can out beat 3 out of the five chars in D-tier without much hassle, but it's up to the wolf community to start stepping up their game a bit.