Why our current CP/Ban System doesnt work / make any sense

[xDD-Master]

Lets get this straight.

What are bans for in the first place?
To bad a bad stage for your character?
Correct?

Now the problem, how do you want to do that if you dont know your oppenants characters?
That doesnt make any sense!!!
Its not like the bad stage stays the same in every Match-Up.

THIS IS THE REASON WHY MOST OF THE CONTROVERSIAL STAGES DO NOT WORK IN THIS RULESET!!!

If a stage is broken/bad it should be banned.
If a stage is only broken/very bad for some characters or in some matches, it can stay legal with individual bans.
BUT how do you want to prevent getting CPed to that stage, if different characters have different CPs and you dont know the character of your oppenant before the stage selection?

We should either try to create a ruleset without the need of individual personal bans OR the bans should come after the character selection.

Its the same reason we choose the starter stage after the character choice.
Because it doesnt make any sense to do it the other way round!

RC, Brinstar, and many other stages like PTAD, GGs etc. are probably fine in a logical ruleset, but they arent in out current one.



Our Ruleset should look like this:

- Character of the winner
- Character of the loser
- Ban(s) of the winners
- CP of the loser

=> Ban/CP should only count for the following match.
=> 2/3 Bans (Depending on the stage list) and no DSR to get the best effect.

 

[Life]

I had a bit of trouble reading this, maybe just 'cause it's late.

What is the problem, exactly, that you're trying to fix?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I had a bit of trouble reading this, maybe just 'cause it's late.

What is the problem, exactly, that you're trying to fix?

More or less, this one:

I lost as Ness against ICs game one.
-He Bans: Delfino
-I CP Norfair, planning to go Wario
-He picks MK
-I'm ****ed

(And similar cases.)

I actually kinda have to agree; it makes a lot of sense. It would certainly up stage viability if you couldn't switch to a pcoket MK after the stage is locked in.

 

[etecoon]

I actually kinda have to agree; it makes a lot of sense. It would certainly up stage viability if you couldn't switch to a pcoket MK after the stage is locked in.

conversely however

anyone that picks norfair

deserves to have pocket MK time them out

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

conversely however

anyone that picks brinstar

deserves to have pocket MK time them out

Top tier post; now do me a favor and contribute something. ^_^

 

[Akaku94]

That actually would work quite well... preventing pocket MK's, among other things... it would change the focus back to characters, and going to stages that are good for your characters, rather than characters for stages... definitely a good idea imo...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We could just ban Meta Knight.

 

[Browny]

People realised, and proved beyond any doubt, that MK completely and utterly within every definition of the word, 'breaks' the counterpick system 2 years ago.

But you know smashers, doing everything they can to convince themselves this is a competitive game and will bend the rulesets so they dont look scrubby by banning MK. herp a derp.

 

[John12346]

Grim, c'mon -. -;

Anyway, ignoring MK altogether, there is an inherent flaw with this setup, and that's that the loser gets to CP his opponent really powerfully with this gimmick. The loser gets to pick a stage and character combination AFTER hearing what the winner's character is going to be. This is just too big of an advantage to award to the losing player; it almost further guarantees autowins on the loser's counterpick, and puts that much more emphasis on winning Game 1, which is what I'm pretty sure we're trying to avoid.

 

[Ghostbone]

Idk if it would end up as an extreme advantage in practice.
But it's not more fair than the method we have currently imo.

 

[etecoon]

Top tier post; now do me a favor and contribute something. ^_^

posting anything remotely constructive in a topic like this goes against everything I stand for, never!

people that advocate norfair being legal should go start a competitive mario kart league

 

[chaosmaster1991]

Anyway, ignoring MK altogether, there is an inherent flaw with this setup, and that's that the loser gets to CP his opponent really powerfully with this gimmick. The loser gets to pick a stage and character combination AFTER hearing what the winner's character is going to be. This is just too big of an advantage to award to the losing player; it almost further guarantees autowins on the loser's counterpick, and puts that much more emphasis on winning Game 1, which is what I'm pretty sure we're trying to avoid.

Well, how about splitting CPs into multiple sets? For example, you have to play 3 sets (Bo3), the first game of every set is a double blind, the other two games have only character CPs. Then, the first (or last) set has stage striking, whereas the other two have stage CPs.

That way, you know what character you're CPing against, but don't get as much of an advantage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Seems awfully convoluted.

 

[Laem]

I still think we should just perma ban all stages except BF and SV. It literally solves all problems except the one of ppl who think MK is still too good (on these stages). Ppl who want to play on other stages are irrelevant. They can go and play in the corner on Norfair with bumpers on high.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^This is what is wrong with the competitive Smash community.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I still think we should just perma ban all stages except BF and SV. It literally solves all problems except the one of ppl who think MK is still too good (on these stages). Ppl who want to play on other stages are irrelevant. They can go and play in the corner on Norfair with bumpers on high.

You're dumb and wrong.

Grim, c'mon -. -;

Anyway, ignoring MK altogether, there is an inherent flaw with this setup, and that's that the loser gets to CP his opponent really powerfully with this gimmick. The loser gets to pick a stage and character combination AFTER hearing what the winner's character is going to be. This is just too big of an advantage to award to the losing player; it almost further guarantees autowins on the loser's counterpick, and puts that much more emphasis on winning Game 1, which is what I'm pretty sure we're trying to avoid.

Example? Remember, you don't have the problem of throwing your ban (or, ideally, bans) out the window on stages your opponent wouldn't have picked anyways because they have a pocket char.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Opponent (winner) picks Mario.

I pick King Dedede.

Opponent bans Green Greens and I trololol with FD.
Or vice versa... though I might actually not pick Green Greens, Mario can really **** up Dedede with them apples.

But the point stands.

Though I do kinda main Dedede so if that ever happens to me... That means I was trolling game one.

 

[xDD-Master]

So and when you say in the normal rulesrt "I cp Green Greens" (or FD whatever) the oppenant wouldnt go Mario?

How should he know you'll take DDD in the first place...
If you didnt pick him already in game 1, because then the Mario player will change his character anyway.

And dont forget, if you have more than 10/11 stages you should at least have 2 bans, otherwise these stages arent acceptable.
In an MLG Ruleset + JJ (Dunno why it was banned lol) 3 Bans probably would be the best.

That actually would work quite well... preventing pocket MK's, among other things... it would change the focus back to characters, and going to stages that are good for your characters, rather than characters for stages... definitely a good idea imo...

Exactly.

We could just ban Meta Knight.

lol...

People realised, and proved beyond any doubt, that MK completely and utterly within every definition of the word, 'breaks' the counterpick system 2 years ago.

But you know smashers, doing everything they can to convince themselves this is a competitive game and will bend the rulesets so they dont look scrubby by banning MK. herp a derp.

This thread is not about MK, just sayin.
I didnt even thought about MK directly when creating this thread...

Anyway, ignoring MK altogether, there is an inherent flaw with this setup, and that's that the loser gets to CP his opponent really powerfully with this gimmick. The loser gets to pick a stage and character combination AFTER hearing what the winner's character is going to be. This is just too big of an advantage to award to the losing player; it almost further guarantees autowins on the loser's counterpick, and puts that much more emphasis on winning Game 1, which is what I'm pretty sure we're trying to avoid.

But it stops gettin hardcore counterpicked, which is better.
And thats what the counterpick system was created for, TO COUNTERPICK your oppenant.
You shouldnt be in an even more disadvantaged match up after you lost the first o_O

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Opponent (winner) picks Mario.

I pick King Dedede.

Opponent bans Green Greens and I trololol with FD.
Or vice versa... though I might actually not pick Green Greens, Mario can really **** up Dedede with them apples.

But the point stands.

Though I do kinda main Dedede so if that ever happens to me... That means I was trolling game one.

But here's the thing: either way you'd still have a hard counter. If it went the other way around, do you think your opponent would've switched characters? How often would that happen? And how often would it completely invalidate your counterpick (as is the case with stages like RC, Brinstar, Norfair, or GG)?

 

[Flayl]

Yo I solved this but didn't get enough feedback.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301373

Please take a look.

 

[Laem]

I'm not sure just how much you solved it Flayl:
Ima assume by 'solved it' you mean amongst other things: I can now, as say Snake, CP RC without going in vs a pocket MK all the time.
This however is only true for the 2nd match. Granted you win it, you're now very likely to go up against MK on the same stage anyway match 3, with no way out.
All this means that it's still dumb to cp RC. (same goes for brinstar but no snake cps brinstar)

 

[xDD-Master]

Looked & posted into the thread, thx

Anyway, I think someone should test my idea.
Depending on the stage list with 2-3 Bans of course (Maybe even 4-5 if the stage list is >20 stages).

 

[holyv]

we could just ban metaknight²

 

[xDD-Master]

This thread has nothing to do with mk

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280694

 

[John12346]

Actually yeah, I guess the extra stage bans do allow the losers of the previous match from horrendously counterpicking their opponent too hard. Also, now that I think about it, it may take the importance off of winning Game 1, because the counterpicker for Game 3 will have had 4 stages thrown out the window at this point. In that way, I guess it does work as an adequate ruleset, although it seems a bit more "high stakes" than what we have right now, tbh...

Anyway, since we're putting different CP rules out there, what do people think of that flipped game order that Susa came up with all those months ago? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=291419

 

[Jack Kieser]

Don't worry, guys, I got this.

NEW CP SYSTEM:

Winner is character-locked (cannot reselect character). Loser can either reselect his character, OR loser can select next stage, but he cannot do both.

SET ORDER:

MATCH 1 - Resolves

Winner announces ban(s) (if we decide they're still needed, and they probably will be)
Loser announces choice of either char or stage
Loser announces change / next stage

MATCH 2 - RESOLVES

Lather, rinse, repeat as necessary

Yes, this makes MK a more logical choice. This just reflects his inherent range of options / lack of bad matchups.

Discuss.

 

[xDD-Master]

@above: exactly the same idea flayl had.

Yo I solved this but didn't get enough feedback.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301373

Please take a look.

And tbh... idk, but it doesnt seem that bad at all, maybe we are coming close to finding a good solution and a finally good ruleset...
We should look and think about the options, because I think we are really on something

 

[Flayl]

Kieser's post makes me wonder how many people skip over my posts because of me being Portuguese/Not a notable player =/

Laem: I don't know in which matchups Snake would CP Rainbow Cruise, but I'm sure there are other characters that are really good against him there besides MK. I think the best approach to CP'ing for the second game is to pick a stage your character is at the least OK on. For Snake that would be like maybe Halberd - how bad would that be against D3?

The whole idea is to make the counterpicks have a bigger consequence on the set than just 1 game (no get out of jail free card ), so idk I guess I don't see the problem but it's up to opinion.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Host BiB3 with this? Or something? Or get Slay to try this at S@S3? We can theorycraft all we want but if we don't test it, it's not going to go anywhere.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That's right, Flayl. It's because you're Portuguese. It's a massive hate-crime against your race.

 

[xDD-Master]

Host BiB3 with this? Or something? Or get Slay to try this at S@S3? We can theorycraft all we want but if we don't test it, it's not going to go anywhere.

I would do it if I host BiB3... but I wont :S
So its up to Slay do it.

And yeah you're right, practice > Theory!

 

[Ghostbone]

Mmm I don't see any serious problems with this at least.

What you could try is having double blind character picks every round, and the loser just gets to CP a stage.
Since character counter-picks tend to be stronger than stage counter-picks, and both at once might be a bit too much.

 

[xDD-Master]

Since character counter-picks tend to be stronger than stage counter-picks, and both at once might be a bit too much.

That is an even worse problem in our current ruleset, as you dont know if get stage counterpicked or not until you know your oppenants character.

FD is good for Falco in many MUs, but not in every MU (Ics)

So when someone says "I CP FD" and the other player thinks "OK thats good for Falco, I stay" and you go ICs then, you hardcore counterpicked him.

That cant happen in this ruleset.

And I also think you should get maybe 2 or 3 bans, so that you can prevent yourself even more to get super duper double counterpicked.

The worst thing to a falco player could happen would be YI+ICs/Pika then (In the case of 3 bans).

The worst case scenarios will shrink, even though the overall "counterpick rate" will raise a bit, but with 2-3 Bans its that much actually.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Isn't it good to encourage diverse character usage?

 

[xDD-Master]

Isn't it good to encourage diverse character usage?

The current ruleset doesnt encourage this, and the change wouldnt decourage it either.
The current encourages to learn a character for only one or two specific stages.
The change would most likely encourage the usage of your mains (Aka your best characters) on different stages.
Which imo is a lot better than changing from your main to another character (Which you dont even really play) just because of the stage.

It also weakens the competition as people arent sticking to their mains and being able to perform at their best.
While sticking to your main, will always create more interesting matches, because the people are actually using characters they can play with, instead of just abusing broken stage elements while being mid-level with the character.
And for example as an Ice Climbers Main, you still dont have to fear to ever get cped to RC/Brinstar, because with two bans, you can actually ban both, if the match-up "requires" this.

 

[-Mars-]

FD SV BF.

the only stages this game really needs, everything else either teaches bad habits or lets you get away from an infinite/bad mu for one single. futile. round.

the thought of even having other stages is like sayin HAI GUAIZ LES PLAY WIT FANS AND BOMBS ON HIGH

G@M

 

[thrillagorilla]

FD SV BF.

the only stages this game really needs, everything else either teaches bad habits or lets you get away from an infinite/bad mu for one single. futile. round.

the thought of even having other stages is like sayin HAI GUAIZ LES PLAY WIT FANS AND BOMBS ON HIGH

G@M

I second this.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

FD SV BF.

the only stages this game really needs, everything else either teaches bad habits or lets you get away from an infinite/bad mu for one single. futile. round.

the thought of even having other stages is like sayin HAI GUAIZ LES PLAY WIT FANS AND BOMBS ON HIGH

G@M

This just in: you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Akaku94]

^lol @ those two

and I agree that stage should be picked after characters. That way you're trying to pick the stage that's best for the MU, not the MU that's best for the stage