Smash Wii U Wii U is hackable - Will there be mods again?

[R0Y]

I don't care about PM personally, but even if I did...PM 2 is not worth ruining my online experience for.

 

[Bladeviper]

@ Bladeviper No one is making or even asking you to play the mod to begin with. :] Try again next time, bud.

it depends, if the mod splits the community enough that it becomes hard to find people to play with around me then yes it will make me get the mod

 

[FalKoopa]

Where do you see PM/Melee/Brawl hate if I may ask? I only saw people complaining about another PM and that they are fine with the one existing. No one, except you, said something about Brawl/Melee/PM hate...Thank you for that.

Now, seriously, you're telling me that wasn't headed in that direction? Almost any discussion of gameplay mechanics (unfortuntely enough) tends to end up like that. I suppose it was a bit premature, but let it stay as warning.

 

[proxibomb]

If there is a sort of Project M for Smash 4, it should only add things like wavedashing, L-cancelling, that kind of stuff.

 

[R0Y]

That's too bad. That's the risk anyone knowingly takes these days when printing digital media. The problem isn't as severe as you think. I don't personally know anyone that plays/played Brawl that hasn't owned one or multiple copies of it.

They shouldn't have this risk, I say it's too bad if these consoles get 360 console banned...Tough.

Smash U will require a newer version of the firmware that will have fixed this crap anyway at least.

Anecdotal evidence from a developed country.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Geez, who knew the thread was going to turn into another of the Melee/Brawl/Project M hate threads?

No, seriously if this topics treads too many times in that direction, it will get locked.

I suggest just locking the thread already. This thread doesn't look like it will avoid Melee/Brawl/Project M hate, because this thread is about Modding Smash 4.

You got the people who support and want Smash 4 to exist as its own thing, not wanting a hacked version of the game.

Whereas, players who are more comfortable with Melee's gameplay to want a hacked version of the game.

Thing is, the topic of hate for any Smash community will resurface at any given time and is completely avoidable.

So, I vote to lock this thread.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I will say that a new iteration of Project M won't be necessary in the sense of there being nothing in particular to motivate people to do so and both the hacking itself and the game are still in their infancy.

I will however say that due to the better handling of the general mechanics in Super Smash Bros. Wii U, the encouraging of competitive playing, and there being the option to distribute balance patches, even at worst the game will still thrive better then Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

 

[JV5Chris]

Don't think I'd ever discourage someone from modding a game, changing it as they see fit, and sharing with people to enjoy. It's entirely their prerogative.

 

[R0Y]

Don't think I'd ever discourage someone from modding a game, changing it as they see fit, and sharing with people to enjoy. It's entirely their prerogative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gLh6AUhMFM

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/nintendo-discussion-1000001/hackers-ruining-mario-kart-wii-26561703/

Yeah-ha-ha right. People are assholes, so you know what to expect...

 

[MasterOfKnees]

The fact that you're even thinking that a 20XX/MK's possible on this scenario under these conditions? Shrug off the negativity, man, this Smash game's the first one to have a direct focus on balance between characters, and they're collecting data from FFA AND 1vs1, so you don't have to be all gloom and doom, especially considering that Nintendo's pushing competitive Smash4 big time, with sponsoring EVO and stuff, I'm sure that if Sakurai's too stubborn to do anything, the higher ups will interfere.

God, seriously...STOP THE NEGATIVITY.

I just think people are making a bit too many assumptions on the balancing front, 8 people aren't going to change it that drastically honestly, and I don't see what even hints at balance being a direct focus. I doubt the higher ups will have much influence either, as always they just let Sakurai handle everything since they trust him after his many successes, and we know how dominating he is in his development.

I consider myself reasonably skeptic on that point, because I don't think we have enough to prove that the game will have the great balance everyone advertises it for. It's not about being negative just because, when Brawl released it turned out to not be as pitch perfect as everyone was hyping it up to be (mind you I still love it, but it's far from flawless), you're going to hurt yourself if you think Smash 4 won't have any glaring flaws.

Either way we're drifing quite off-topic at this point, so I'm not really going to carry it much further, not like it serves any purpose anyways.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Wow. The entire thread is just blabbering about the "evils" of Project M. I thought you could be better than Miiverse for five seconds, guys.

On topic, though, I'm going to wait until Nintendo makes an official stance. Mods are cool, but not bricking-an-almost-thousand-dollar-investment cool. That's why I waited until the end of the Wii's lifespan to hack Brawl.

 

[JV5Chris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gLh6AUhMFM
http://www.gamespot.com/forums/nintendo-discussion-1000001/hackers-ruining-mario-kart-wii-26561703/
Yeah-ha-ha right. People are *******s, so you know what to expect...

Remind me again what the Project M developers did to ruin your mario kart experience? Lumping cheaters and all modders together is not helping to make your case.

 

[Ascended]

No, because the game needs to be given a chance before people start hacking it.

 

[Bladeviper]

Wow. The entire thread is just blabbering about the "evils" of Project M. I thought you could be better than Miiverse for five seconds, guys.

On topic, though, I'm going to wait until Nintendo makes an official stance. Mods are cool, but not bricking-an-almost-thousand-dollar-investment cool. That's why I waited until the end of the Wii's lifespan to hack Brawl.

im not sure if we will get an official stance on it. at least right now nintendo does not mind pm and will not say it exists so it can stay up and running but to give an official stance would seem to force them to shut it down

 

[dimensionsword64]

Even though they have to buy the base copy? Even most of the top competitive players like Mango played Brawl when it came out (but not competively). Simple fact is the game wasn't made for this audience, so it was changed. It's not like they're completely upending the game to make it enjoyable period, or enjoyable for anything else for that matter. What does Little Timmy the Button Mashing Item Player care? Super Smash Bros. is intrinsically a game about customization and Project M carries the spirit of that better than the base copy does itself. I'd be proud people care about my series enough to work backwards through the crazy *** Wii hardware and OS in order to make fundamental changes to the game.

Okay. First, Smash is not about customization. We're not even getting any customization until Smash 4 comes out. Then, with your comment that the game wasn't meant for the competitive audience, it was made for all audiences. Just, the competitive audience found that some aspects of the game were different from Melee, and decided that Sakurai spited them on purpose. And you may be, but I most certainly wouldn't be proud that people weren't satisfied with my game, so they decided they could do it better, and hacked it.

 

[NinetyL]

I think this topic is very premature. I want to give Smash 4 a fair chance and see how it holds up to its predecessors. If for some reason I get bored of it because of its mechanics or I think it's held back by certain design decisions then sure, I'm interested in seeing if modders can spice things up. But for now I think it's silly to already look forward to mods and bash Smash 4 months before release. It's not even healthy for the game itself, in my opinion. What if people don't even bother playing Smash 4 competitively because "it will get modded sooner rather than later so why even bother learning to play a version of the game we won't stick to for long anyway?"

 

[Khao]

I don't see the point in making another Project M when they're still working on it, and you can already do whatever the **** you want.

Making another one means starting from scratch, which is a huge step backwards.

And if you just want it done for the HD graphics (because as far as mechanics it'd have to be the same thing for it to be a Project M) you can just put it up on the Dolphin emulator, which is pretty ****ing good at playing Brawl in HD using any mods.

Do I want to see mods eventually? **** yes, definitely. But there's just no point in making another Project M.

 

[Jumpman84]

Actually, my major concern with mods in general is that people will use them while playing online and I may end up being matched up against them. I don't want to risk
A. crashing the Wii U and damaging it
or B. Getting blamed for the hacking/mods and getting banned from playing Smash online.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Let me inject some reality here. Let's not even consider if there should be "another Project M"; I'm going to focus on whether there "could" be one. It's going to be way, way harder this time for many reasons.

The biggest is the underlying technical differences here. The Wii had basically no security at all; you bypassed the first layer and the console let you do whatever you wanted. The Wii U is harder, and once they patch whatever exploit is being used here, it will not be anywhere near as easy to find another and so on. Does the Wii U resist the installation of fake signed programs? That's a big point; being able to hack stuff while actively hooked up to your hacking equipment is one thing, but being able to actually install a program that lets you run arbitrary code whenever you want is another.

I'd also like to point out the issue with RAM vs ROM editing. I would guess that what this video was doing was playing with values in the RAM, that is editing the game state on the fly. This can be used for quite some impressive hacking stuff (the first release of Balanced Brawl used this exclusively!), but it's hard since things like hitbox property modification requires an engine that scans for hitboxes as they are loaded, and if they match a specific set of properties, replaces them with another. For so many reasons that makes things hard and is really limiting; what you really want to do is to be able to replace files from the ROM (that is, edit the base files on the game disc itself). The problem is that you have encryption to break, and unlike with the Wii where Nintendo didn't really try, that's going to be a non-trivial problem here.

Even if you can run and install arbitrary code and break the encryption, you still haven't "won". You also need someone with a large degree of coding expertise at low level programming to actually write editing tools. Project Smash Attacks was the main program for my time editing Brawl that was used; it was a program that scanned the already compiled character.pac files, interpreted them into human readable language, and let the user make changes and save new files relatively easily. Doing a large scale hack is not going to be reasonable without such a program, and to be real, the number of people in the scene capable of writing such a program is not very large (it's certainly well beyond me).

So, to summarize, you need the Wii U to be thoroughly broken to the point you can install arbitrary programs on it that let you run arbitrary code at will, you need to break the encryption on the ISOs, and you need someone to gain a thorough understanding of the particulars the smash 4 ISO and write a quality editing program. This is probably a long time away from happening even if it ever happens at all, and Nintendo can easily be very obstructive if they so choose and make things take even longer. I suggest we save the debate over how we should use this power until we actually have it; I do feel like we didn't do a good job of realizing the potential of Brawl hacking throughout the lifetime of Brawl, but there's no need to drag that out and reconsider until it's clear we'll actually have that situation on our hands again.

 

[TheDMonroeShow]

I think it's upsetting how many people are against pm and mods in general, not because I want a new pm but because a new pm existing litterally does not affect you in any way if you don't want it.

Like it existing does not effect vanilla smash 4 you can still play it to your hearts content but people still wish for it not to be a thing..why? Do you not want other to play the way they want and enjoy the game? Are you really that selfish?

This would be like me picketing hot topic because I don't want to wear they'll clothes and getting furious that others would dare to..when I could just not buy clothes there and let other people who like their clothes enjoy them.

On that note I don't think there should be a new pm. Maybe in like 8 years or so I could see it happening but I'm more then happy with the current pm and they keep managing to add even more cool things to it like all-star versus. I would love to see music and costumes hacks though..and even stage hacks! I'm actually fairly excited for the possibility.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

To add in on what Amazing Ampharos said.

How exactly are they gonna make PM 2.0 on release? Like the Wii was pretty easy to hack and new patches for it aren't coming out, the WiiU will have updates so if they are gonna pull a PM 2.0? Can they keep it going with what Nintendo might add in while the WiiU is out?

The WiiU is gonna be harder to crack than the Wii, not impossible but it will be harder.

I will admit I'm not a fan of mod games of smash in general, though I like some of them. Still staying unbaised here, how do you think they can go about this? As a person finishing up his last year in college for IT Support I don't see this being as easy as people think it will be.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

They shouldn't have this risk, I say it's too bad if these consoles get 360 console banned...Tough.

Smash U will require a newer version of the firmware that will have fixed this crap anyway at least.

Anecdotal evidence from a developed country.

What are you trying to say about "anecdotal evidence from a developed country"? That's not even a full sentence. Your country doesn't even have Smash 4 released in its territory, so Nintendo couldn't have handled it yet. Way to completely misuse words. Virtually no one besides shareholders cares if producers shouldn't have this risk. It's an unavoidable fact of life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gLh6AUhMFM

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/nintendo-discussion-1000001/hackers-ruining-mario-kart-wii-26561703/

Yeah-ha-ha right. People are *******s, so you know what to expect...

Cheating and modding aren't the same thing, R0Y.

Okay. First, Smash is not about customization. We're not even getting any customization until Smash 4 comes out. Then, with your comment that the game wasn't meant for the competitive audience, it was made for all audiences. Just, the competitive audience found that some aspects of the game were different from Melee, and decided that Sakurai spited them on purpose.

Of all the things Smash has and will have (stage music, palettes, items and drop rate, modes, stage builder, stickers, adjustable miis, custom movesets and so forth) and you contest my notion that Smash isn't intrinsically about customization, then there is reason to believe you have never actually played any of these games before.

Brawl was not made for all audiences. It was made exclusively for the new generation players joining the Wii bandwagon as has been officially commented by Sakurai. By design, it shortens the gap between inexperienced and experienced players in order to pacify the egos of someone underperforming as also officially commented by Sakurai. There's no "for all audiences" about Brawl. That hasn't stopped some people from enjoying it at a competitive level, but that doesn't mean it was made for all audiences. So yes, Sakurai has spited experienced competitive players, as he doesn't think the "no items, 1v1" concept is fun at all and doesn't think that is how the game is supposed to be played and in his mind it wasn't conducive to new players.

I'm not even going to talk with you about the non-issue of people doing what the want to do with their own property.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Of all the things Smash has and will have (stage music, palettes, items and drop rate, modes, stage builder, stickers, adjustable miis, custom movesets and so forth) and you contest my notion that Smash isn't intrinsically about customization, then there is reason to believe you have never actually played any of these games before.

stage music: A very unimportant aspect that wasn't even in the original game.
palettes: Whoop-de-doo. We can change our characters colors. This game must be all about customization!
items: You can't say just because you can toggle items, that Smash is all about customization.
modes: That's not customization.
Stage Builder: Wasn't in the first two, and may not be back
stickers: see above
adjustable miis: Only in Smash 4, which isn't even out.
Custom Movesets: see above

Brawl was not made for all audiences. It was made exclusively for the new generation players joining the Wii bandwagon as has been officially commented by Sakurai. By design, it shortens the gap between inexperienced and experienced players in order to pacify the egos of someone underperforming as also officially commented by Sakurai. There's no "for all audiences" about Brawl. That hasn't stopped some people from enjoying it at a competitive level, but that doesn't mean it was made for all audiences. So yes, Sakurai has spited experienced competitive players, as he doesn't think the "no items, 1v1" concept is fun at all and doesn't think that is how the game is supposed to be played and in his mind it wasn't conducive to new players.

That doesn't mean Sakurai is intentionally making it bad for competitive players. He changed a little bit of the gameplay, not realizing how much damage that would cause to the community, and now he's trying to make it fun for everyone.

I'm not even going to talk with you about the non-issue of people doing what the want to do with their own property.

I didn't say that they didn't have the right to do that. I'm saying that it's disrespectful.

 

[GeNo-BreaKer]

What is it with people against PM? All of you button mashers aren't even going to be affected. PM never affected vanilla Brawl, so what's going change in Smash 4?

Anyways, I'm all for the Wii U being hacked. Garbage like region locking can be removed. Smash 4 can be modded. And since Nintendo can ban NNIDs, we don't have to worry about cheats.

 

[Saikyoshi]

What is it with people against PM? All of you button mashers aren't even going to be affected. PM never affected vanilla Brawl, so what's going change in Smash 4?

Anyways, I'm all for the Wii U being hacked. Garbage like region locking can be removed. Smash 4 can be modded. And since Nintendo can ban NNIDs, we don't have to worry about cheats.

The main issue is the risk of Nintendo deleting the NNIDs of modders.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Let's see.

It would take years to make a reasonable tier list. If Sm4sh is trash then we might see a new PM within the year of 2017, lol.

How the hack would be distributed is questionable, though. From what I heard, you can't do SD cards.

 

[Jumpman84]

I think it's upsetting how many people are against pm and mods in general, not because I want a new pm but because a new pm existing litterally does not affect you in any way if you don't want it.

Like it existing does not effect vanilla smash 4 you can still play it to your hearts content but people still wish for it not to be a thing..why? Do you not want other to play the way they want and enjoy the game? Are you really that selfish?

I don't have an issue with people doing whatever they want with their own playing of it. My concern is that some people will go online with their mods/hacks. In that case, yes, it will affect vanilla smash 4 players because they can get matched up with those players. It happened in Brawl and Mario Kart Wii, it could very well happen again here. I shouldn't have to be worried about being matched up with people using mods/hacks who could very well cause my Wii U to crash or get me reported in error and banned from playing.

 

[Book Jacket]

If they can find a way to make another project m, or something else like it, I'm all for it. It doesn't have to make the game as much like melee, and it doesn't have to even be the same guys who do it, but if someone finds a way, that'd be great. I'd love to see what the competitive community coders can do with Smash 4. Project M is a crap-ton of fun for me, and if someone somehow finds a way to do something similar, I'd love to see it.

 

[Jiggy37]

I had the greatest casual fun with Brawl mods, especially in Brawl Minus. But even if Smash 4 is perfectly awesome and no one feels a need to tweak the gameplay, I'd still want mods just so character models and music can breathe new life into the game.

No items, Pokemon only*, Pokemon Stadium, Pokemon season 1 English theme.

*Includes Captain Falcon as Blaziken, Zelda as Gardevoir, etc.

 

[pickle962]

Scuse my French, but how about **** NO!!!! Don't get me wrong for I love me some PM, but from what I've gathered from positive impressions of the demo as well as my own impressions, Smash 4 seems to be on the right path as both a party game like Sakurai has always envisioned as well as the competitive game that us fans go crazy over when we see top tier players duke it out at the likes of Evo and MLG and thus doesn't need something on the level of Project Melee to make it competitive viable. Granted, we know nothing of the full game and Back Roomers in particular will be spending the better part of next year picking it apart as tier lists and character guides spring up the more we learn about the competitive viability of Smash 4.

The only reason Brawl needed a mod like PM was because of how much of a middle finger it was from Sakurai to the competitive crowd. Smash 4 doesn't give me that impression and instead feels to me like the game Brawl should have been while also being newcomer friendly (which is like THE ONLY THING Brawl did right in my book). Again, the full game is a mystery to us, but so long as Sakurai and Namco take to heart any constructive criticism Nintendo wrote down at the invitational as well as the Best Buy event (which I imagine they probably will anyway since it would have been a waste otherwise), Smash 4 seems to be like the game that might mend the rift Brawl caused in the community.

 

[Rᴏb]

If the PMBR wanna take a crack at balancing Smash 4 somewhere down the line, I'd totally welcome it. Those guys make some really great stuff and it's awesome to see what regular dudes from the community are capable of. The only downside is it would probably persuade me to waste money on a Wii U.

Personally, I don't think it'll be necessary. They've already come so far with modding Brawl, so I think it would make more sense to add content to the existing version of PM rather than start from scratch on a new one. I can't even imagine any benefits from modding Smash 4 other than having a higher resolution version of PM, which we kinda already have with Dolphin.

Regardless, it's pretty funny to see how close-minded some people are when it comes to PM.

 

[Xavier :D]

I honestly do not give a crap about mods.

 

[TheDMonroeShow]

I don't have an issue with people doing whatever they want with their own playing of it. My concern is that some people will go online with their mods/hacks. In that case, yes, it will affect vanilla smash 4 players because they can get matched up with those players. It happened in Brawl and Mario Kart Wii, it could very well happen again here. I shouldn't have to be worried about being matched up with people using mods/hacks who could very well cause my Wii U to crash or get me reported in error and banned from playing.

Mods and hacks are too very different things. That being said you were not who my post was aimed at.

My post was aimed at people who want pm or anything like THAT to not exist because they feel it's very existence hurts them despite the fact that they do not have to play it and it extremely selfish for them to not want it to exist just because they don't want enjoy it. Again I'd point to my previous posts example.

Your reason for concern is fair, mkwii hacking was pretty terrible and I'd hate to see the same happen to 8.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Hardly, Pickle. Two completely different ways of thinking about the game. The best this game can hope for is either to develop its own way of thinking or to turn the heat up while not causing pseudo-competitive players to double over from the gut wrenching, morale crushing anguish that apparently comes with the mild inconvenience of having to learn how to play just a little bit technical.

 

[NoiseHERO]

mario kart and smash bros cheating, sounds like a lot of incoming butthurt

 

[praline]

well, if they started ASAP they'd take around that much to complete it.

I meant to start!

 

[JayJay584]

Jesus Christ, the game is not even out yet people. Why is this even up for discussion? Would it kill people to wait a year or two AFTER the game's release to think about these things?

 

[praline]

Jesus Christ, the game is not even out yet people. Why is this even up for discussion? Would it kill people to wait a year or two AFTER the game's release to think about these things?

Because people here love melee too damn much.

 

[Anomalus]

Jesus Christ, the game is not even out yet people. Why is this even up for discussion? Would it kill people to wait a year or two AFTER the game's release to think about these things?

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[Pyra]

Jesus Christ, the game is not even out yet people. Why is this even up for discussion? Would it kill people to wait a year or two AFTER the game's release to think about these things?

I assume it was just a spur of the moment discussion due to the discovery of the Wii U being hackable.
It makes a little sense, I guess.

Still too early though, I agree.