Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[-Mars-]

wolf vs zelda from a wolf who knows how to fight the matchup.

Zelda can outrange wolf but all wolf needs to do is lead in with blaster space bairs and bait a smash then its a free bair to fsmash grab or w/e they want to do. i only die to zeldas usmash dsmash and fsmash due to it ONLY shield poking me or me rolling into it. this is hard for zelda imo seeing that all i have to do is jab bair punish with fsmash and kill with dsmash. as zelda all you can do is smash wolf or so it seems to me.



that was with good wolf stages and shiek being added in.

if were talking only zelda id prolly say wolf has the advantage...unless it was on like lylat or luigis mansion.

I've seen you play Ankoku and I think your views are based off of him always just going for the kill with Zelda. Wolf has the advantage, but they're are things she can do once she gets up close.

We all know how fast Wolf falls, so Zelda can string a couple usmashes at the beginning of a stock for a quick 40%. Wolf can keep her away, but once she does get close in, dtilt is really good against Wolf. Unless you powershield or quarter-circle DI, Wolf is going to be in for a while.

Zelda is going to have some trouble landing the finishing blow on Wolf, she always has to approach and Wolf excels at keeping her away. Wolf also controls the air in this matchup.....but Zelda has the advantage on the ground.

It's in Wolfs' favor, but not by a large margin..i'd give it 55-45 Wolf.

 

[choknater]

Yup, I'd agree that wolf has an advantage on Zelda. There are some offensive strategies that Zelda simply can't deal with (like Diddy Kong...)

 

[TheWildcard]

I've seen you play Ankoku and I think your views are based off of him always just going for the kill with Zelda. Wolf has the advantage, but they're are things she can do once she gets up close.

We all know how fast Wolf falls, so Zelda can string a couple usmashes at the beginning of a stock for a quick 40%. Wolf can keep her away, but once she does get close in, dtilt is really good against Wolf. Unless you powershield or quarter-circle DI, Wolf is going to be in for a while.

Zelda is going to have some trouble landing the finishing blow on Wolf, she always has to approach and Wolf excels at keeping her away. Wolf also controls the air in this matchup.....but Zelda has the advantage on the ground.

It's in Wolfs' favor, but not by a large margin..i'd give it 55-45 Wolf.

i agree i havent really fought anyone who uses just zelda :-/ except Epic who says the matchup is hard to control.

all in all i agree with you

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've seen you play Ankoku and I think your views are based off of him always just going for the kill with Zelda.

yeah... no offense to ankoku, becasue ankoku is a very good sheik... but ankoku is not a good zelda... so if that's the only place you are drawing experience from then you have a misconception.

Wolf is not zelda's easiest matchup. He has some effective aerials and nice, spammy moves that can make fighting him a pain... but he's no great threat.

Usmash is great against wolf. Not only does it reject his aerial approaches as well as punish him going airborne if you airdodge to the ground through him, it also chains to itself to wrack up a lot of damage early on.

Nayru's love is brilliant. not only does it reflect back his lasers at double speed, but it ALSO completely rejects his Fsmash if he tries to use that, tired of getting lasers reflected. True, din's doesn't really force him to approach unless it's a strage like luigi's mansion, but nayru's love stops him from forcing your hand too much either. If he doesn't have a damage advantage on you, he can't force you to be stupid.. and if you short hop nayru's at him, regardless of whether he tries to punish your hop with an other laser or his fsmash, you are completely protected.

Wolf's grab game ios not too terribly impressive, so it's really not much of a factor meaning, when he does approach, it'll have to be from the air or with a Fsmash (since his dash attack is so unimpressive.) Usmash and nayru's, as well as sheild grabs, can punish these approaches fairly well. Also, Zelda's Dsmash complete outspeeds him up close and kills him most of the time due to his recovery AND zelda out reaches him if he's not close.

So why would I say it's only a slight advantage for Zelda and not a huge one? Because once he gets an advantage YOU have to approach... and if he starts to juggle you,that sucks. his methods for keeping you away or up are pretty good if not properly countered. and his dsmash is fast... not faster than ours, but fast enough you NEED to expect it.

However, as long as Zelda is on her toes and keeps in mind when wolf is in an advantageous position to be careful, this should be a good matchup. Sheik has it better, sure, But zelda is capable of killing wolf on her own quite effectively... and if you pick lylat or luigi's then zelda is strongly favoured.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I would put Wolf's dsmash in the top 3 in the game, probably right below GaW and MKs. It's power is unbelievable, as well as it's speed.

Btw, Sonic, good luck at reflecting Wolf's lasers back to the point where they actually reach him. That gun has so little range it's perfect.

His grab game would be irrelevant if not for his dthrow, which at higher percents can you send you off the age at an absolutely terrible angle. He can bair-edgehog you very easily. If you manage to Farore above the ledge back onto the stage, he can usually just ledgehop fair you.

Make no mistake, Wolf IS a beast in this matchup. He shuts down a lot of Zelda's options. Zelda's advantage is her smash attacks, spam them.

"and if you short hop nayru's at him, regardless of whether he tries to punish your hop with an other laser or his fsmash, you are completely protected."

That is just plain theory. While it looks good on paper, it's weak in actual practice. If you shorthop NL at him, he can just roll backward, or correct his spacing, or upsmash you in the middle of your shorthop. NL is a good move but it also leaves you open afterward. A good Wolf WILL punish you for this.

 

[TheWildcard]

wolfs dsmash wont kill unless you DI it wrong or unless its fresh.

when GaW can live at 100% + from a fresh wolf dsmash somthing is wrong.

Mk GaW Zelda rob all have better Dsmashes than wolf you just have to know how to deal with it.

When its Di'd wrong omg then its good. but if your fighting someone who knows how to deal with it it can get iffy.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I would put Wolf's dsmash in the top 3 in the game, probably right below GaW and MKs. It's power is unbelievable, as well as it's speed.

it's also slower than zelda's Dsmash even if it does have less cooldown time... and it does have more power albeit at a less destructive angle.

Btw, Sonic, good luck at reflecting Wolf's lasers back to the point where they actually reach him. That gun has so little range it's perfect.

wrong. since you reflect them back double speed, they'll make it back to him unless he's quite far away... in which case his lasers aren't effective becuase they move so slow that you can just power sheild them constantaly. Wolf's lasers aren't really that good unless he's a little closer to you... in which case, yes you WILL be able to reflect them back.

His grab game would be irrelevant if not for his dthrow, which at higher percents can you send you off the age at an absolutely terrible angle. He can bair-edgehog you very easily. If you manage to Farore above the ledge back onto the stage, he can usually just ledgehop fair you.

wolf is does a VERY poor job edgeguarding zelda... if yuo are letting him kill you off the edge, you are doing it wrong.... and his down throw is techable I think. Regarless... if he's edgeguarding you "very easily" then you need to get better at recovering.

Make no mistake, Wolf IS a beast in this matchup. He shuts down a lot of Zelda's options. Zelda's advantage is her smash attacks, spam them.

Ignore SwastikaPyle. If this doesn't prove that he has no idea how to play zelda on anything resembling a high level, then just check out "It finally Happened..." by Rykoshet. All of Pyle's opinions about zelda seem to require that she be a flame-spewing, immoble lump.

"and if you short hop nayru's at him, regardless of whether he tries to punish your hop with an other laser or his fsmash, you are completely protected."

That is just plain theory. While it looks good on paper, it's weak in actual practice. If you shorthop NL at him, he can just roll backward, or correct his spacing, or upsmash you in the middle of your shorthop. NL is a good move but it also leaves you open afterward. A good Wolf WILL punish you for this.

okay let me rephrase that for you so you'll understand it.

you short hop... wolf does something.... if it's an Fsmash or a laser, use nayru's... you're covered. those attacks DO have startup. it isn't that hard to pull out nayru's after the fact.

if you're right on top of him you wouldn't use it anyway... you'd probably autocancel nair into Dsmash.

 

[sniperworm]

I think that this matchup is basically even (unless you use Zelda's downB).

Wolf has his neutral B to force Zelda to approach which is never where Zelda wants to be (being FORCED to approach I mean, not approaching in general). He also has a quick and fairly powerful Dsmash and Bair, along with a long range Fsmash that is fantastic at punishing lag.

Zelda, on the other hand, has a Dsmash that really bothers Wolf at close range, neutralB that is great at stopping Wolf's grounded approaches (and close range lasers obviously), and her Usmash is awesome at stopping his aerials. Plus Zelda's aerials and Din's Fire are great for adding pressure to Wolf's already questionable recovery.

From what I've seen, this is a really boring match. Neither side can just barrel forward and approach, but since Zelda can't camp, she's forced to carefully approach. This means there's a lot of moving and spacing followed by short bursts of offense once someone makes a mistake. However, since Zelda can put more pressure on Wolf when he's recovering, I'd say that the match is 50:50 (Zelda is inherently at the disadvantage since she has to approach, but Wolf has trouble landing solid hits).

One thing I'd like to say is beware Wolf's DownB, the invincibility is very disruptive.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

Alright, I am just trying to sum things up:

Most people think that Wolf has at least a slight advantage in the matchup (Perhaps 55:45?):
Choknator
Omniswell
Marsulas
Myself, although I do not know how credible that is.
etc

Others think it is even, or slightly in Zelda's favor:
Sonic The HedgeDawg
Royalblood?
etc


I was also going to try to sum up the points, but there are alot of them. And it would do no justice to list a couple.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Alright, I am just trying to sum things up:

Most people think that Wolf has at least a slight advantage in the matchup (Perhaps 55:45?):
Choknator
Omniswell
Marsulas
Myself, although I do not know how credible that is.
etc

Others think it is even, or slightly in Zelda's favor:
Sonic The HedgeDawg
Royalblood?
etc


I was also going to try to sum up the points, but there are alot of them. And it would do no justice to list a couple.

D: That's why somtimes i get flamed ;___;
I haven't said anything and i won't :3

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

Haha, alright.

: ) no trouble.
Your advice to me made me think you thought it was even or better.

Sorry for the trouble. : P my bad.


Oh and Villi sorry for not including you, i just didn't know if you were on the 'Even or better' side like you seem to be.
Again, my apologies.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

it's also slower than zelda's Dsmash even if it does have less cooldown time... and it does have more power albeit at a less destructive angle.

wrong. since you reflect them back double speed, they'll make it back to him unless he's quite far away... in which case his lasers aren't effective becuase they move so slow that you can just power sheild them constantaly. Wolf's lasers aren't really that good unless he's a little closer to you... in which case, yes you WILL be able to reflect them back.

Wolf is usually going to be doing lasers from far off, usually shorthopped (in my experience). Whether you reflect them or powershield them it doesn't even matter - he has nothing to lose, you do. If he screws up a laser, it's no problem. If you screw up, you get 6%. This is an advantage for Wolf, no matter how you look at it.

wolf is does a VERY poor job edgeguarding zelda... if yuo are letting him kill you off the edge, you are doing it wrong.... and his down throw is techable I think. Regarless... if he's edgeguarding you "very easily" then you need to get better at recovering.

You made no points at all in this part, you just said 'he's bad at it.' You should be in congress.

"DON'T TRY TO CONFUSE ME WITH THE FACTS."

Ignore SwastikaPyle. If this doesn't prove that he has no idea how to play zelda on anything resembling a high level, then just check out "It finally Happened..." by Rykoshet. All of Pyle's opinions about zelda seem to require that she be a flame-spewing, immoble lump.

Just shut up. I said myself in this matchup that Din's was practically useless. The only time it could come in handy was off the stage.

Oh hey look: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5531024#post5531024

Most of the community agrees with me that Wolf has the advantage. Apparently you are the one who should be ignored.


okay let me rephrase that for you so you'll understand it.

you short hop... wolf does something.... if it's an Fsmash or a laser, use nayru's... you're covered. those attacks DO have startup. it isn't that hard to pull out nayru's after the fact.

Are you implying that a person would have time to actually SEE the f-smash coming toward them and press B before it hits? Seriously? That attack is foolishly fast.

I understand the fact that NL will beat both of them...

But what if you predict wrong? What if Wolf DOESN'T use those moves? Then you're on the wrong end of an upsmash or SHfair because you used NL and predicted wrong.

Zelda does have some good tools in this fight, but Wolf has much more.

10redreplies

 

[Brinzy]

Argumentum ad populum - logical fallacy in which people think something is true because most people believe it. See:

Oh hey look: http://www.smashboards.com/showthrea...24#post5531024

Most of the community agrees with me that Wolf has the advantage. Apparently you are the one who should be ignored.

for the logical fallacy at work.


Most people, at one point, said that Melee Jigglypuff was a counter to Fox. Most people, at one point, said that Melee Jigglypuff sucked against Fox. Just because most people believed something doesn't mean that it was automatically correct.

Your posts have been littered with stuff like this. Why should anyone take your opinions on this seriously anymore?


To contribute, I still don't see what Wolf has on Zelda. If the Fox and Falco boards say that Zelda is problematic to bad but the Wolf board says no, then I want some hardcore proof that Wolf's moveset is magically super-effective on Zelda. Falco's laser and shine are easily the most annoying on Zelda, yet she can still, at the very LEAST, run even with Falco. What on earth does Wolf do to give him a distinct advantage? I've been reading posts, and I just don't see what makes Wolf so special. He's fought just like any other spacey, except he gets a little more surprising range and agility in his attacks and a bit more weight while giving up a bit of agility. I don't see what's so special about Wolf, no offense.

 

[choknater]

^too good pointing out logic loool^

anyway raphael

Wolf is way faster in the air horizontally than Fox or Falco. Horizontal spacing dominance - a trait that Diddy Kong, Wario, and Jigglypuff all have - gives Wolf the ability to outspace her in a lot of situations. What Zelda has on Wolf is usmash, superior priority, and great edge guarding. However, Wolf's superior maneuverability helps him get around most of Zelda's attacks, and IMO if two players were to play each other with deep matchup knowledge, the match would be slightly tipped for Wolf. Zelda's got her limits in spacing, I'll tell you that much.

Anyway guys, just press down B already LOL Sheik is like 130:-30 on Wolf

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I also submit that it's completely stage dependant.

on Mansion or Lylat you WILL have an advatage.... but he'll have the advatage on Halberd and probably on delfino as well.

 

[-Mars-]

Argumentum ad populum - logical fallacy in which people think something is true because most people believe it. See:



for the logical fallacy at work.


Most people, at one point, said that Melee Jigglypuff was a counter to Fox. Most people, at one point, said that Melee Jigglypuff sucked against Fox. Just because most people believed something doesn't mean that it was automatically correct.

Your posts have been littered with stuff like this. Why should anyone take your opinions on this seriously anymore?


To contribute, I still don't see what Wolf has on Zelda. If the Fox and Falco boards say that Zelda is problematic to bad but the Wolf board says no, then I want some hardcore proof that Wolf's moveset is magically super-effective on Zelda. Falco's laser and shine are easily the most annoying on Zelda, yet she can still, at the very LEAST, run even with Falco. What on earth does Wolf do to give him a distinct advantage? I've been reading posts, and I just don't see what makes Wolf so special. He's fought just like any other spacey, except he gets a little more surprising range and agility in his attacks and a bit more weight while giving up a bit of agility. I don't see what's so special about Wolf, no offense.

Listen, I love Zelda, so it's not like i'm saying this because i'm biased towards Wolf or something but I really believe he has a slight advantage.

I really don't like when people compare the spacies to each other, they are all very different. Fox is my secondary to my Sheik/Zelda and i'm picking up Wolf as well and the style is completely different. Wolf, unlike Falco is a much more in-your-face type of character. I don't think people realize just how fast Wolf can play in battle. His aerial DI abilities and his spacing game is great. He has several disjointed hitboxes that he can take advantage of as well, his horizontal aerial speed and his falling speed make him extremely fast on the battlefield.

The thing is with Zelda, she can space just as well as Wolf. The only reason I think he has an advantage is because he can camp against her and force her into disadvantageous positions..........that's it.

I will say though that everything Sonic is saying is valid. He's making good points and adding useful information to the discussion. That's the whole point of matchup discussion threads, people stating their viewpoints and debating until we can get an accurate matchup decision.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda vs. Wolf is a 0:0 match up. That is, it should never happen because you have access to Sheik and would be stupid not to take advantage of that.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The thing is with Zelda, she can space just as well as Wolf. The only reason I think he has an advantage is because he can camp against her and force her into disadvantageous positions..........that's it.

I will say though that everything Sonic is saying is valid. He's making good points and adding useful information to the discussion. That's the whole point of matchup discussion threads, people stating their viewpoints and debating until we can get an accurate matchup decision.

I don't really think the camping is a big problem... no, the problem with wolf V. Zelda is that, if he starts to juggle you in the right places, and the stage isn't sufficiently large to land away from him, you have a hard time finding your ground legs again.

Zelda vs. Wolf is a 0:0 match up. That is, it should never happen because you have access to Sheik and would be stupid not to take advantage of that.

We know that Ryoko. While it's no less true now than it's always been, it doesn't have any bearing on how his matchup really is with zelda.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Maybe Wolf is a little harder than Fox or Falco because Wolf's air speed excells yours, while you get a better air speed than Falco and Fox

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

also... you kill falco and fox much easier than they kill you.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Also for Wolf, just hop or SH Din's Fire and you'll trade with him ;D so that gets the laser out if the question since the long range you can just sit there jumping them and when ge starts goinf for the close range ones, Nayru's Love reflects fast so Wolf cannot sheild because of the put away gun animation after-lag, just throwing this out there ^_^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Also for Wolf, just hop or SH Din's Fire and you'll trade with him ;D so that gets the laser out if the question since the long range you can just sit there jumping them and when ge starts goinf for the close range ones, Nayru's Love reflects fast so Wolf cannot sheild because of the put away gun animation after-lag, just throwing this out there ^_^

you ARE right... however, there is a magical range that wolf can get into that he can start sheilding reflected lasers in time.


and again I say Zelda prefers luigi's mansion for the marth matchup because it's a good stage for her and a bad stage for marth... and FD is neither of these.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Zelda like owns Luigis mansion lol.

 

[TheWildcard]

wolf does god awful on mansion...or at least i do with him

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Luigis is one of Wolfs worst stages...

 

[-Mars-]

I don't really think the camping is a big problem... no, the problem with wolf V. Zelda is that, if he starts to juggle you in the right places, and the stage isn't sufficiently large to land away from him, you have a hard time finding your ground legs again.


We know that Ryoko. While it's no less true now than it's always been, it doesn't have any bearing on how his matchup really is with zelda.

That's why I said he forces you into"disadvantageous positions".

We still need to discuss this matchup for those who refuse to use Sheik.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well it's though for Zelda I guess...Wolf beats her in teh air...I dunno about the ground but Wolfs ground game is good and he outcamps her, as it seems...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well it's though for Zelda I guess...Wolf beats her in teh air...I dunno about the ground but Wolfs ground game is good and he outcamps her, as it seems...

Wolf's ground game < Zelda's Ground game

even if we give him a slight advantage overall, this remains true.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

Zelda like owns Luigis mansion lol.

100% agree,

: P my favorite counterpick for anyone, ever.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wolf's ground game < Zelda's Ground game

I can do the same look: "Wolfs ground game > Zelda's lolololololololol". Proof?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I can do the same look: "Wolfs ground game > Zelda's lolololololololol". Proof?

uhhh... read the rest of the thread?

 

[-Mars-]

I can do the same look: "Wolfs ground game > Zelda's lolololololololol". Proof?

Seriously you post a lot of stupid things. We've explained many times why Zelda's ground game is better.

 

[RoyalBlood]

D; Can i haz a numbeh! pl0x =/ i don't want another dedede lololo zelda's better lolol no, she isn't lolol yes she is T_T please 8D

 

[MRTW113]

For MK, "Kill him quickly"?!!! Any good advice on how not to get yourself juggled into oblivion? Defensive maneuvers against him?

 

[RoyalBlood]

Unfortunately i'm very stupid at giving advice plus my writing skills are like crap so ;___;
I'd like some help you know D':

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

D; Can i haz a numbeh! pl0x =/ i don't want another dedede lololo zelda's better lolol no, she isn't lolol yes she is T_T please 8D

both sides pretty much agree it's neutral... it's just the zelda side thinks it's 55:45 us, and the wolf side thinks it's 55:45 them.

I don't really care. it's about the same either way.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

: P

i think its 55:45 them. (Johns ftw)

That would be neutral on the Character-Board-Specific matchup chart anyways.




(haha, but i really think Zelda has to work slightly harder than wolf does to win this fight.)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

: P

i think its 55:45 them. (Johns ftw)

That would be neutral on the Character-Board-Specific matchup chart anyways.




(haha, but i really think Zelda has to work slightly harder than wolf does to win this fight.)

I'll accept that. they both rely on momentum in this matchup, wolf just has a slightly easier time controlling that momentum.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I read your stuff and it proves nothing. The only thing Zelda has to outspace are her smashes but if she makes a mistake Wolfs fsmash is a guaranteed hit. Wolf is much more mobile on the ground and hard to finish. His tilts outrange and outspeed Zeldas tilts and she needs her smashes to KO reliably. She dies very early too, especially to dsmash.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Zeldas tilts are usually her better finishes cause her smashes rack the damage.
magic ***** slap ftw lol.