Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[RoyalBlood]

His bair is near being broken, imo that move is easily top 3 in the game. You can't keep shielding it because it eats shields alive.......you are better off rolling away than shielding it......you can't even shield grab the attack.

That's right, but you can actually shield grab it if he spaces incorrectly :o

A thing that I find very useful to defeating a G&W that approaches with bair is exploding Dins right in front of me. Usually you should never do this, but in this matchup it's almost a necessity. Right when you know he'll pull out the turtle, explode a dins right in the lil f*****'s face, then proceed to follow up from there.......don't approach. Another thing you can do against turtle spam is airdodge. Because Zelda has such a long airdodge, if you time it right you can possibly evade the whole attack. These are pretty much your only options against this godly move.

^This

Don't approach but don't use dins either, we all know what a full bucket can do. Fake din's is actually very nice though. If they're medium-range distance away from you, explode a dins right before the hitbox reaches thier area. The bucket does have lag so if used at medium-range you should have time for a running up smash.

Do not go near after he uses the key. You may think that you can get a hit in once he touches the ground, but no he can dsmash almost immediately after. This is also another safe instnce to use dins because all G&W's immediately dsmash after landing from the key.

Again, right ^_^

Unlike most Zelda users, I think Dins is invaluable in this matchup. The mindgames you can do with dins against a G&W are just too good. If they ever get a full bucket on you, this is perfect because you can now use dins to your hearts desire, use it every chance you get and be ready to reflect the bucket(i've done this twice and I almost crapped my pants), nothing feels better than turning this against them.

In conclusion, Sonic I really think you should reconsider about Dins......your pretty much forced to use it in this matchup.

You sir, are my hero <3 lol

And if you need a kill on Mr. Game and Watch, like Marsulas said, you have to use Din's and make G&W bucket it so you can freely use your F-smash or other move that WILL kill him

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

In conclusion, Sonic I really think you should reconsider about Dins......your pretty much forced to use it in this matchup.

I disagree... you are never FORCED to use din's... you use din's v. game and watch the same ways you'd use it against a lot of people... and that is when he makes himself vulnerable and can't avoid it... the difference is that you can't just harass him at a distance like you can others because of the bucket.

this CAN work to your advantage because sometimes he can't get the bucket out in time so he ends up taking din's rather than just dodging like any other character would.... but din't has cooldown too which makes it unlikely that you'll be able to capitalize on his bucket's cooldown when you have your own to overcome.

as for reflecting the bucket... you couldn't reflect it in melee and from all I've heard, it's still unreflectable... in either case, you'll never get Nayru's out in time unless you predict it... and a failed prediction leaves you prone to just about anything so I'd focus on avoiding.


Dins may not be useless... but it's far from an integral part of this particular matchup.

 

[Takumaru]

Anyone from the midwest should know that GW ***** zelda like it's nothing. You spend most of this match trying to roll or airdodge around him hoping he messes up. You can't use your shield in this one like you can in others. Really all you can do is try to guess where he's gonna be before he gets there. You'll be trading blows most of this fight anyway. I use nair a lot in this fight. lol no I don't, I use peach because turnips can't be bucketed. But I would if I ever used zelda against GW... which I don't because it's stupid. Peach isn't much better but she's not as bad as zelda.

70:30 because GW can pressure zelda way better than she can defend. lol at trying to play games with din's fire. Smart GWs catch on and either bucket it or air dodge in and **** you. Midwest yo, we **** with you GW... (err... I suppose I'm EC right now but MW is my home region).

 

[sniperworm]

I personally am of the camp that uses Din's a lot in this matchup (although it is important to note that I use it a lot versus everyone). Obviously most of it is blowing it up away from him just to make him remember I have it (and that he can bucket it). It's just one more thing for them to try and remember. Using Din's to draw out the bucket (for a kill) is not a bad idea if you're having trouble landing a killing blow. The lag after catching a projectile is very severe for G&W and you can easily run up and hit him if he catches a fire at short to mid-range (of course, any G&W with half a brain won't catch a Din's Fire at high percents if you're relatively nearby).

The turtle is annoying as hell but I find that if you can accurately predict when they'll attempt a SH Bair, you can Fair or Bair them before they pull out the turtle (works really well if your typical response is to move away from him). His Dair shouldn't give Zelda much trouble because Usmash and Uair both can beat it out.

Oh yeah and like everyone already knows, tech the down throw or prepare to be in a world of hurt.

This matchup is definitely not a good one for Zelda because G&W soundly stuffs most of what Zelda normally tries to do. So I guess the 70:30 I've been seeing seems pretty accurate to me.

 

[Brinzy]

Anyone from the midwest should know that GW ***** zelda like it's nothing.

I faced four G&W's this past weekend in a tourney and still came out as #1, bair and D-throws galore! No "big name" G&W's though, so whatever. Yeah, he hurts her, but at least he's light.

 

[Takumaru]

I faced four G&W's this past weekend in a tourney and still came out as #1, bair and D-throws galore! No "big name" G&W's though, so whatever. Yeah, he hurts her, but at least he's light.

Try playing cosmo or anyone who understands spacing. GW ***** zelda. I take down GW all the time, they're all crappy players though. Samething goes for 90% of the MK population.

 

[Brinzy]

I think I know that it's a bad match-up for Zelda already.

 

[Villi]

Ban FD as it just gives him too many aerial options on you. On most other stages you can use platforms to land rising fairs and uairs. You can land a fast falled fair through his dsmash on the ground, but that's risky.

I try to bait out the bucket with Din's when I'm in range to punish it. Just make sure it doesn't hit him.

If he's landing in front of you with his bairs, punish it with a dsmash or naryu's out of shield. If he's spacing them away from you, he'll probably follow up with a smash he wants you to run into. I can't really come up with any clear cut solutions to G&W. Just don't screw up. :/

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

G&W is also capable of poking through platforms with his bair, nair and fair.... really no stage gives YOU an advatage.... Villi is right... focus on picking stages that can minimize G&W's advantages as best you can... battlefield probably does this better than most other stages... sadly... because he's still a hard matchup even there.

 

[-Mars-]

I disagree... you are never FORCED to use din's... you use din's v. game and watch the same ways you'd use it against a lot of people... and that is when he makes himself vulnerable and can't avoid it... the difference is that you can't just harass him at a distance like you can others because of the bucket.

this CAN work to your advantage because sometimes he can't get the bucket out in time so he ends up taking din's rather than just dodging like any other character would.... but din't has cooldown too which makes it unlikely that you'll be able to capitalize on his bucket's cooldown when you have your own to overcome.

as for reflecting the bucket... you couldn't reflect it in melee and from all I've heard, it's still unreflectable... in either case, you'll never get Nayru's out in time unless you predict it... and a failed prediction leaves you prone to just about anything so I'd focus on avoiding.


Dins may not be useless... but it's far from an integral part of this particular matchup.

You are forced to use Dins, there isn't really all that much you can do against his aerial approaches..........in theory you could roll and airdodge away from the turtle but all your going to be accomplishing is a standstill. At least with you using dins to harass his aerial approaches, you are playing somewhat agressive and will be adding some damage. Of course you can't use dins when he's far away, I already siad that in my previous post. If your using dins when he's far away, it should only be fake dins and even thats not really worth it. Sometimes you can mess with his recovery a little this way and setup for an offstage lightning kick or even the occassional spike.

Dins has less cooldown so if your gliding towards him and using dins, you should be close enough to punish. Granted good G&W's will just sh airdodge/roll, which is what all opponents do, so it's really not going to be that big of an issue.

Maybe I was wrong about the bucket reflection, I could have sworn i've reflected it a couple times, i'll test this later tonight. Even if it's not reflectable wouldn't the invincibility frames of Naryus give you some protection or does the bucket rip right through it?

If Dins isn't an integral part of this matchup(mindgames, hindering sh aerial approaches), then tell me how you would personally go about stopping his aerial attacks. This matchup is Zeldas worst and you need every advantage you can possibly have.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

1) Bucket is unreflectable
2) Bucket lasts longer than din's invincibility frames
3) All of G&W's aerials cancel out dins
4) you will never ever ever gimp a good game and watch ever.... if you EVER spike him... he's not a good game and watch... end of story


if din's is an integral part of your matchup againt G&W.... play better G&Ws

 

[-Mars-]

1) Bucket is unreflectable
2) Bucket lasts longer than din's invincibility frames
3) All of G&W's aerials cancel out dins
4) you will never ever ever gimp a good game and watch ever.... if you EVER spike him... he's not a good game and watch... end of story


if din's is an integral part of your matchup againt G&W.... play better G&Ws

1&2) thank you for informing me, this is something I was honestly mistaken about.
3)you can jump backwards and use dins while your airborne and hit him when he lands.....especially the turtle since it does have A LITTLE lag.
4)I did say occassionally and he either has to pull out the bucket, get hit, or do the usual method of airdodging.......this can lead to some off stage play. I never said gimping, but you could get off an attack in certain situations.

Like I said before, share with us some of your strategies, all your doing is arguing against dins, yet your not bringing up any examples of "better" methods of fighting the turtle.

edit: found a decent video in the vid thread, look at how Naks still uses dins to try and contain the G&W. He does a pretty good job with it too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fPFQqplpuk

 

[RoyalBlood]

:3

And the turtle can be shield-grabbed if he spaces incorrectly :o
And Din's interrupts the start-up animation of Mr. G&W aerials ^_^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

3)you can jump backwards and use dins while your airborne and hit him when he lands.....especially the turtle since it does have A LITTLE lag.

exactly as I said.... you can use dins... but only when he wiffs something and is unable to defend himself... what you cannot do with din's is "harass his approaches" which is exactly what you said you should do with it. all of his approaches in question will cancel it out and all YOU did by using din's was leave yourself prone. and begging fot him to dash grab you.

4)I did say occassionally and he either has to pull out the bucket, get hit, or do the usual method of airdodging.......this can lead to some off stage play. I never said gimping, but you could get off an attack in certain situations.

you said you could set up offstage lightning kicks or spikes... I'm asking what game and watch worth his salt has that ever happened to?

Like I said before, share with us some of your strategies, all your doing is arguing against dins, yet your not bringing up any examples of "better" methods of fighting the turtle.

avoid it like the plague... it lasts too long to spotdodge it, it's got too much range/priority to counterattack and it ***** shields... also, it has lingering hitboxes which make grabbing or attacking him out of a shield a no go.

Why is it my responsibility to provide other ways to combat his turtle? this is a matchup thread and my point was that his turtle is too good against you.... the fact that your "strategy against the turtle" isn't effective only proves my point.

and in case you figure this out, yes, you can hit G&W out of turtle with dins if you detonate it far enough behind him... but that's not something you can rely on to be able tospace properly since you have to anticipate his bair to do it and he has to fail at compensating himself.

edit: found a decent video in the vid thread, look at how Naks still uses dins to try and contain the G&W. He does a pretty good job with it too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fPFQqplpuk

umm. Was this supposed to help your point? The zelda in this vid seems to be pretty good as far as zelda mains are concerned and, surprise she used din's fire very rarely during the match. What's more. The only time din's was used effectively was when zelda was doing just what I said she could do with it: attack when G&W couldn't bucket. Zelda never applied pressure with dins... the closest you could come to that would be stalling by making G&W constantly ledgegrab... and that ended up biting her in the butt once he broke his rhythm.

look... that video shows a compitent zelda against a competent game and watch. Even if they aren't of the calibur of dark musician or Ryoko, they are bot good enough that neither one is letting the other charcter get off attacks that shouldn't be landing (eg. game and watch isn't getting hammered by lightning kicks or din's and zelda isn't getting ravaged by aerials).... and what does the match show? the match shows a zelda that is struggling against a game and watch... a zelda that has to search for a chink in game and watches armour in order to really make a dent in him.

the simple fact of this match is that Zelda has the uphill battle. her standard techniques are all countered by game and watch, and zelda has nothing to deter game and watch's game... quite the contrary, zelda plays right into his hand. The matchup essentially consists of zelda biding her time and carefully, and oh so patiently waiting for any opportunity she has to punish game and watch... whereas game and watch need not adapt to zelda's game... he just needs to play like normal and not leave himself stupidly open and he'll be fine.

Any time one charcter, who is better to begin with, is allowed to play their own game against a charcter who is generally considered not as good AND who has to play a different game... it should be obvious who has the advantage. Quite simply, Zelda is playing texas holdem against pocket aces when she has a 2,7 off suit... can she win? yeah... but she needs to play an incredibly smart game and also needs to get lucky... Game and Watch, on the other hand, need only not make foolish errors and even the toughest zeldas will have a hard time beating him.. if he plays his own smart game... well Zelda at least has a 30% shot.

/argument

p.s. to RoyalBlood
- Not only is it irritating to see you jump on every pro zelda argument like it's the last scrap of food in the village, it also causes you to lose credibility and relevance. Zelda is not the best charcter in the game. Period. she has tonnes and tonnes of trouble against game and watch. But if someone said that pressing the down taunt button caused game and watch to magically comit suicide there's the sneaking suspicion in the back of my mind that you'd respond "Amen brother"
I understand, she's your main, you love her. But see her for what she is. When you say, or go along with arguments which are clearly faulty, not only does it make it hard to take anything you say seriously, but, since this is your thread, and, also, the primary zelda matchup thread, it makes us (Zelda mains) look like we are delusional.

 

[RoyalBlood]

p.s. to RoyalBlood
- Not only is it irritating to see you jump on every pro zelda argument like it's the last scrap of food in the village, it also causes you to lose credibility and relevance. Zelda is not the best charcter in the game. Period. she has tonnes and tonnes of trouble against game and watch. But if someone said that pressing the down taunt button caused game and watch to magically comit suicide there's the sneaking suspicion in the back of my mind that you'd respond "Amen brother"
I understand, she's your main, you love her. But see her for what she is. When you say, or go along with arguments which are clearly faulty, not only does it make it hard to take anything you say seriously, but, since this is your thread, and, also, the primary zelda matchup thread, it makes us (Zelda mains) look like we are delusional.

Pro Zelda ^_^ Where? I think it's clear enough and i've been saying this, that the only Pro Zelda is RyokoYaksa (well, at least here :3 )

Edit : Oh my!..this sounded so arrogant <.< I'm sorry if someone was offended

Last Scrap of Food </3 Not true ^_^ Most of the time i state true facts

I don't think no one takes me seriously in this thread, at least with you backing me up

I know :D

And when did i say she didn't <.< I said that the match-up it's not so difficult, i even said, make one mistake and you're dead

Of course not, i always avoid easy tactic, and even if it was true i would say something like
"o_O Wow" I hate vulgar language that includes something like memes or slangs <.<


Nope, all (well almost all) i say, is true :D, that's why i post it

Please Sonic, may i request that you make your thread, i'll stop updating this and you can use it ONLY as a reference if you like ^_^ I'm sorry for harming your reputation Zelda mains, i'm really sorry and i'm sorry Sonic

That's all

Edit : Oh ^_^ Sonic, this isn't the official match-up zelda thread, when you make yours, be sure to add "Official Match-up Thread" to the title ^^

Edit 2 : Oh whoops, i forgot, someone should request the closing of this thread to a moderator ^_^

 

[-Mars-]

exactly as I said.... you can use dins... but only when he wiffs something and is unable to defend himself... what you cannot do with din's is "harass his approaches" which is exactly what you said you should do with it. all of his approaches in question will cancel it out and all YOU did by using din's was leave yourself prone. and begging fot him to dash grab you.
you said you could set up offstage lightning kicks or spikes... I'm asking what game and watch worth his salt has that ever happened to?

avoid it like the plague... it lasts too long to spotdodge it, it's got too much range/priority to counterattack and it ***** shields... also, it has lingering hitboxes which make grabbing or attacking him out of a shield a no go.

Why is it my responsibility to provide other ways to combat his turtle? this is a matchup thread and my point was that his turtle is too good against you.... the fact that your "strategy against the turtle" isn't effective only proves my point.

and in case you figure this out, yes, you can hit G&W out of turtle with dins if you detonate it far enough behind him... but that's not something you can rely on to be able tospace properly since you have to anticipate his bair to do it and he has to fail at compensating himself.


umm. Was this supposed to help your point? The zelda in this vid seems to be pretty good as far as zelda mains are concerned and, surprise she used din's fire very rarely during the match. What's more. The only time din's was used effectively was when zelda was doing just what I said she could do with it: attack when G&W couldn't bucket. Zelda never applied pressure with dins... the closest you could come to that would be stalling by making G&W constantly ledgegrab... and that ended up biting her in the butt once he broke his rhythm.

look... that video shows a compitent zelda against a competent game and watch. Even if they aren't of the calibur of dark musician or Ryoko, they are bot good enough that neither one is letting the other charcter get off attacks that shouldn't be landing (eg. game and watch isn't getting hammered by lightning kicks or din's and zelda isn't getting ravaged by aerials).... and what does the match show? the match shows a zelda that is struggling against a game and watch... a zelda that has to search for a chink in game and watches armour in order to really make a dent in him.

the simple fact of this match is that Zelda has the uphill battle. her standard techniques are all countered by game and watch, and zelda has nothing to deter game and watch's game... quite the contrary, zelda plays right into his hand. The matchup essentially consists of zelda biding her time and carefully, and oh so patiently waiting for any opportunity she has to punish game and watch... whereas game and watch need not adapt to zelda's game... he just needs to play like normal and not leave himself stupidly open and he'll be fine.

Any time one charcter, who is better to begin with, is allowed to play their own game against a charcter who is generally considered not as good AND who has to play a different game... it should be obvious who has the advantage. Quite simply, Zelda is playing texas holdem against pocket aces when she has a 2,7 off suit... can she win? yeah... but she needs to play an incredibly smart game and also needs to get lucky... Game and Watch, on the other hand, need only not make foolish errors and even the toughest zeldas will have a hard time beating him.. if he plays his own smart game... well Zelda at least has a 30% shot.

/argument

p.s. to RoyalBlood
- Not only is it irritating to see you jump on every pro zelda argument like it's the last scrap of food in the village, it also causes you to lose credibility and relevance. Zelda is not the best charcter in the game. Period. she has tonnes and tonnes of trouble against game and watch. But if someone said that pressing the down taunt button caused game and watch to magically comit suicide there's the sneaking suspicion in the back of my mind that you'd respond "Amen brother"
I understand, she's your main, you love her. But see her for what she is. When you say, or go along with arguments which are clearly faulty, not only does it make it hard to take anything you say seriously, but, since this is your thread, and, also, the primary zelda matchup thread, it makes us (Zelda mains) look like we are delusional.

If he's approaching but at the same time worried about getting hit with dins, how is that not harassing his approaches? I know the turtle should be avoided, never did I mention trying to grab or just shielding the attack. I mentioned how Godly the move is and was merely putting something on the table that could be used to help against it.

You do have some responsibilty; you merely looked at this matchup, said how terrible for Zelda it is, and left it at that. This is a matchup discussion thread, so us Zelda users should be trying to find any little thing that could potentially be of some use. I think I maybe misworded some of my earlier statements and it led to me being misinterpreted. Dins is not fail-proof, it never is, all I meant to say was it can be used in this matchup and against an aggressive character like G&W, it has it's uses. My fault if I came across differently. You are also one of the few competent posters on these boards and you do know what your'e talking about. It's a matchup discussion thread and I feel like you should be trying to bring something to the table instead of just refuting my arguments and commenting on how bad the matchup is.

In that video, yes it wasn't like dins was affecting the outcome of the match but Naks did hit on a couple ocassions and if he had of played a little more aggressive, it possibly could have led to some off stage play.

I'm very aware of how bad this matchup is for Zelda. It is in fact her worst matchup but this is a matchup discussion thread. We're supposed to be coming up with solutions for our character instead of saying 30:70 and moving on.

If what I say is wrong, that's fine. You refute my statements, others refute my statements and we move on. I'm merely bringing some interesting discussion to the "discussion" thread. You'll have to agree with me that it's better than others saying OMG Zelda 60:40 and leaving it at that.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

*sigh* I don't want to turn this into a "bash RoyalBlood" thread because that's not my intent... it just seems like bluntness is going to be the only way to get the point across... soooo... like ripping of a bandage, let's do this fast and I won't touch on the subject more.... unless something arises giving amble cause to do so...okay? okay

Pro Zelda ^_^ Where? I think it's clear enough and i've been saying this, that the only Pro Zelda is RyokoYaksa (well, at least here :3 )

*epic facepalm* "pro-zelda" means "in support of zelda"

Last Scrap of Food </3 Not true ^_^ Most of the time i state true facts

50:50... which is too low really and most of the time when it's untrue... it's not that you are stating a lie. it's that what you say just doesn't happen.... most of the time it's a case where you'll endorse a strategy/technique that a pro zelda would scoff at or that an experienced foe would shrug off.

I don't think no one takes me seriously in this thread, at least with you backing me up

well while I appreciate any nods you make to me, I'm not saying that the thread lacks all credibility... I mearly submit that, with each passing action like those I mentioned, we take a step towards the less-credible direction.

I know :D

fine... it just doesn't come across

And when did i say she didn't <.< I said that the match-up it's not so difficult, i even said, make one mistake and you're dead

this sentence contradicts itself... and saying it's not hard inherently means that you don't think it's 70:30 G&W's favour.

Of course not, i always avoid easy tactic, and even if it was true i would say something like
"o_O Wow" I hate vulgar language that includes something like memes or slangs <.<

I'm just confused out of my mind on what this one means.

Nope, all (well almost all) i say, is true :D, that's why i post it

as I mentioned before... not all the time... and the times you are wrong are enough that I think i bears mentioning

Please Sonic, may i request that you make your thread, i'll stop updating this and you can use it ONLY as a reference if you like ^_^ I'm sorry for harming your reputation Zelda mains, i'm really sorry and i'm sorry Sonic

hmm... well that would solve my b****ing at you problem I guess... but then I'd have the problem of maintaining a thread weekly and, honestly, that's not a time commitment I want at the moment.

That's all

Edit : Oh ^_^ Sonic, this isn't the official match-up zelda thread, when you make yours, be sure to add "Official Match-up Thread" to the title ^^

Edit 2 : Oh whoops, i forgot, someone should request the closing of this thread to a moderator ^_^

oh don't get so emo... just keep it on its current track.. we'll hammer out problems later.

you want my advice... well... urgg... hrmm... you can read this if you feel comfortable enough to do so... it's harsh... but it's what I think.

Spoiler

I don't want to come across as saying "be quiet and let the big kids play here" but, honestly that would solve the problems. Reading what everyone has to say and making your points as questions would really help. i.e. "hey, can you shield grab turtle" vs. "you should shield grab turtle"
you aren't a total noob or anything, I'm not saying that... but, if you read a lot of what's being said... you'll see that it looks like people are having their own coversations about the matchup and you are posting little interjections that aren't being taken too seriously.. -_- I'm sorry. Nothing about the thread hinders it's ability to work as our matchup thread... I'm just saying that the pretty picture focus of the OP causes people to already think you are a little green as far as experience is concerned... no need to open your mouth and give them further course to believe so. Once again... I'm very sorry... and, this doesn't necessarily mean your a bad zelda... it can just as easily mean that your opponents aren't a high enough calibur

 

[RoyalBlood]

Ok from now on i'll just take care of updating Yay! :3 to avoid any confusion
I'm sorry again ^_^

Edit : So Mr. G&W is 30:70 right??

 

[-Mars-]

Ok from now on i'll just take care of updating Yay! :3 to avoid any confusion
I'm sorry again ^_^

Edit : So Mr. G&W is 30:70 right??

It is 30:70 but I personally wouldn't mind if the discussion was open on G&W for just a little while longer, seems like we just barely started on him.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Oh, Sure sure, continue discussing, my bad ^_^

 

[-Mars-]

Oh, Sure sure, continue discussing, my bad ^_^

Lol, well it is your thread so do what you want with it. Let's just give it til tomorrow to see if anyone else has anything to add....if thats ok with you.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

stuff.

yeah... you are right... I still stand by my assertion that din's is awful for harassing here... mainly because G&W has a wide variety of options for reliably countering it, at far distances, this can lead to a bucket, at close distances, this can lead to you eating something in the face.

as for how to face game and watch:
- Be more wary with nayru's love than normal (continue to use it, but be careful)

it's not really that effective against his "chef" (din's counters better) and G&W has scary options for punishing it if it doesn't do its job when yu are using it as a GTFO.​

-Always always always always remember Dsmash... both his and yours.

his dsmash is brutal and comes out faster than most of your repetoir, however, not your dsmash. your dsmash comes out the fastest of any smash in this match and will pary anything game and watch might try to do close range. It's rare to use dsamsh so defensively, but, game and watch has a good recovery anyway, so, surprisingly, this isn't going to be a go-to kill move. it's more an "OMG SAVE ME" move​

- Be VERY concious of spacing

game and watch has a lot of disjoints: in the air and on the ground. Most of them are comperable to the range of zelda's Fsmash and are slightly longer. So you wanna really be sure that you try to put G&W right at the range that Fsmash can reach.​

-your Uair is amazing

even professional game and watches love to use that key because it has such intuitive setups... but, the key is also outranged by Zelda's uair and is countered by uair if G&W lands on a platform above you. This is key (pardon the pun) because a fresh uair can kill game and watch at 64% from the top platform of battlefield... it can kill lower if he's higher, of course and it starts killing from the lower platforms at 70% even... falling through a platform w/ uair is a nice option at any damage that high. It's always a difficult land for zelda... but, if she connects, it has incredible results... for the love of god don't spam it, but be aware of it always and never miss an opportunity to punish him with it​

-Don't expect to be getting off ligtning kicks

if game and watch is awake, his bair, fair and nair all have the range, priority, speed and duration to completely stuff your LK attempts. his dair might leave him vulnerable, but with its speed and him being such a small target, the already high precision necessary for landing a lighting kick becomes even higher. on the ground, he's short and rarely left vulnerable enough for you to land one even if you were lucky enough to be prepared to do so. his fair seems to have sufficient landing lag to punish, but since you won't be getting many opportunities to punish game and watch, I'd capatilize on that with something more reliable.​

-Pick battlefield

I'm listening if anyone has any better ideas about which stages to pick... but platforms really do a lot to stop his from-above aerial game... though they assist both of you in platform chasing. The difference is that a pletform assisted uair nets you a low damage kill with the short ceiling of BF and gives game and watch no such benefit. In any case, if game and watch bans battlefield, pick a stage with a low ceiling and at least one platform.​

I impress, again, that game and watch has all sorts of advantages here... but I think we've done a good job covering them



let's get the top tiers out of the way first since they are your most likely opponents... howabout DDD, Snake, ROB or Falco after we finish up here. (but let's be sure to finish G&W first)

 

[EpicProportions]

yeah... you are right... I still stand by my assertion that din's is awful for harassing here... mainly because G&W has a wide variety of options for reliably countering it, at far distances, this can lead to a bucket, at close distances, this can lead to you eating something in the face.

as for how to face game and watch:
- Be more wary with nayru's love than normal (continue to use it, but be careful)

it's not really that effective against his "chef" (din's counters better) and G&W has scary options for punishing it if it doesn't do its job when yu are using it as a GTFO.​

-Always always always always remember Dsmash... both his and yours.

his dsmash is brutal and comes out faster than most of your repetoir, however, not your dsmash. your dsmash comes out the fastest of any smash in this match and will pary anything game and watch might try to do close range. It's rare to use dsamsh so defensively, but, game and watch has a good recovery anyway, so, surprisingly, this isn't going to be a go-to kill move. it's more an "OMG SAVE ME" move​

- Be VERY concious of spacing

game and watch has a lot of disjoints: in the air and on the ground. Most of them are comperable to the range of zelda's Fsmash and are slightly longer. So you wanna really be sure that you try to put G&W right at the range that Fsmash can reach.​

-your Uair is amazing

even professional game and watches love to use that key because it has such intuitive setups... but, the key is also outranged by Zelda's uair and is countered by uair if G&W lands on a platform above you. This is key (pardon the pun) because a fresh uair can kill game and watch at 64% from the top platform of battlefield... it can kill lower if he's higher, of course and it starts killing from the lower platforms at 70% even... falling through a platform w/ uair is a nice option at any damage that high. It's always a difficult land for zelda... but, if she connects, it has incredible results... for the love of god don't spam it, but be aware of it always and never miss an opportunity to punish him with it​

-Don't expect to be getting off ligtning kicks

if game and watch is awake, his bair, fair and nair all have the range, priority, speed and duration to completely stuff your LK attempts. his dair might leave him vulnerable, but with its speed and him being such a small target, the already high precision necessary for landing a lighting kick becomes even higher. on the ground, he's short and rarely left vulnerable enough for you to land one even if you were lucky enough to be prepared to do so. his fair seems to have sufficient landing lag to punish, but since you won't be getting many opportunities to punish game and watch, I'd capatilize on that with something more reliable.​

-Pick battlefield

I'm listening if anyone has any better ideas about which stages to pick... but platforms really do a lot to stop his from-above aerial game... though they assist both of you in platform chasing. The difference is that a pletform assisted uair nets you a low damage kill with the short ceiling of BF and gives game and watch no such benefit. In any case, if game and watch bans battlefield, pick a stage with a low ceiling and at least one platform.​

I impress, again, that game and watch has all sorts of advantages here... but I think we've done a good job covering them

I play Zelda against Needle of Juntah's G&W a bunch. And for those of you who don't know, he's pretty good at Game and Watch. Oh yeah, I play Lain too. I hear he play's online tournies sometimes.
In my expierence, G&W is the only character I have a lot of trouble containing/spacing etc..mainly because of the backair. Which unfortunately is bad news bears because that's G&W's go-to move for spacing/setup/pressure and what not.
So let's delve into a major point here; what not to do against a properly spaced short hop back air . I would have to say everything is bad except for teleport, din's fire, perfect shield, and walking back 3 steps. The reasoning? A properly space backair CAN'T be punished by ANYONE without something with the movement speed along the lines of a motorslide(other dac/glidetoss etc.) And so as Zelda we are left with very few options. Generally I space G&W using empty shorthops and wait until he gets impatient and uses something other then the back air (since you can pretty much punish all his other attacks). If G&W is intent on spamming back air, read the startup and jump back with din's fire. The momentum should carry you out of G&W's backair, even if di'ed towards you, if spaced right, and let go when din's fire get's behind him aka won't clank with turtle. G&W has a few frames of lag when he lands on the ground with the turtle. (pst.. hit him there b4 he gets his shield up). Do this until he is willing to change up tactics to take advantage of you being in the air with din's fire and your landing lag. In which case, he A) buckets B) forward air C) running upsmash d) any of his other silly attacks where you can use the f-smash or your second jump to get around and punish.
In terms of back air di'ed towards you, you can hit that with a f-smash, shield dropped up-smash, toe, shield-grab, roll to d/f-smash. In essense, you MUST space the back-air everytime and be patient.
OFC this is only my personal approach to G&W's bair. I have been doing the teleport canceled into the ground as an counter to bair, but have been rewarded by getting hit with a key/fair or another bair. So I am open and looking for something constructive to do against the bair. Oh yeah, on another note, the down B move works to be pretty good against G&W as does choosing metaknight lol.

Anyway, back to the reason I quoted Hedgedawg's post.
1) don't use nayru's love on the stage. or in the air for that matter. It will result in that little number counter on the bottom to go up. So don't do it.
2) If G&W is foolish enough to let you get a d-smash in, use it. I'll take 10% on him anyday.
3) Space.space...Space.Space.Space stuttered f-smash owns everything but the spaced bair.
4)Upair owns key. period. And it kills to. I attribute 40% of my ko's on G&W to the upair. Cause if he doesn't use the key, he's kinda slow in getting back on the ground. And way up there, he can't space a bair without zelda being able to punish it. I agree that it should not be spammed. But if the key comes out, read it, and 'IF you can'<---(important) use the up air. also reading air-dodges isn't bad for all matchups.
5)toes.... *cry..........at least it trades with bair if you hit it when the turtle pops out.
6)Battlefield is one of zelda's most solid stages. Platforms are essential for any of her counterpicks. Easiest time I've had with G&W is (don't ostracize me/balk just yet) *excitement da daa da daaaa!!! Lylat. Yes. Lylat. Hear me out.
Platforms lead to many upsmash opportunites, fast fall u-air hits on platforms. teleport cancel into the ground/ledges. And most importantly, the moving ground messes up the timing for the perfect spaced bair, leaving it 'punishable with a dash attack or f-smash'. shhh(there is landing lag when bairing into the ground) /shhh
When G&W's bair gets punished they ussually get agitated and start trying other things. For example, nair/bair/fair/key/bair/grab/smashes/bair/bair and maybe will end up going back to the bair. But when they do, the stage keeps moving and leaves them open again. also u-tilt goes through platforms, you can ledgecancel etc etc. By eliminating the 'unpunishble aspect' of bair you open up a lot more possibilties. But don't get me wrong, even if G&W doesn't use bair, he can still ko you with half his attacks, and be super lame. Lylat is definately not a cureall(nor that great of a stage for zelda) but it does (albiet inconsistantly) get rid of THE major issue of the matchup.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

oh about lylat... I'd give it a chance... but there are some problems comaored with battlefield:
- platform coverage is not as complete (his air game is deterred, but not as much)
- distance from top platform to stage ceiling is higher... and considering zelda gets KOs off the top of the screen far more often... that's a problem.
- Lylat cruise helps to deter, but does not completely eliminate the benefits of G&W's bair.... it DOES however, add an whole new problem by gimping zelda's recovery... weighing the difference here... I'd recomend battlefield any day, though lylat isn't as bad a choice as it often is.

 

[Takumaru]

Why the hell is jungle japes the recomended stage in the first post? It's a horrible stage for zelda and she's easily gimped there, especially by GW. Hell, anyone is gonna gimp her easily there.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Why the hell is jungle japes the recomended stage in the first post? It's a horrible stage for zelda and she's easily gimped there, especially by GW. Hell, anyone is gonna gimp her easily there.

I also question why pictochat is the recomended stage vs. the iceclimbers... is it becasue the stage transitions MIGHT screw up their chain grab? because that's hardly reliable and the stage isn't zelda's favourite to begin with. I'd recomend battlefield personally here.... it really is a good stage for zelda... and in this matchup, moving from platform to platform hinders their grab game a little more and makes it easier to separate them... plus they get NO benefit out of platforms and zelda gains some.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

okay... much like the status of the matchup... I'd say please do not put a recomended stage until we agree on one.

okay DDD.... Zelda beats him... and bad.

• DDD, unlike other large characters, is often airborne. making him VERY suseptable to lighting kicks and Uair.
  
• He also tends to rely on aerial approaches... making him VERY susceptible to her Upsmash.
  
• He can't outcamp her with waddle dees like he can most people because Din's >>> waddle dees. (in this matchup at least)
  
• His recovery... THAT'S the big thing. Other big charcters don't have the same predicatbale, vulnerable recovery that he does.... seriously... as long as Zelda's not in a compramising position, she should be able to punish a recovering DDD with fair, bair, uair, Usmash, Utilt, Fsmash or shield grab EVERY time.
  
• Also, DDD has rather poor attack speed meaning even if he's inside of Din's fire's most effective range, Zelda still ahs the advantage due to having strong attacks that ar MUCH quicker.
  
• DDD is entirely too large to DI out of her smashes often, if at all.
  
• DDD can't effectively edgehog her due to his poor airspeed and her recovery's ability to teleport.
  
• DDD's normally very reliable bair just gets outprioritized by Usmash, utilt or a well timed lightning kick.
  
• DDD cannot chain grab zelda.

Seriously... what does DDD have going for him at ALL here?
on a different point... let's look at what makes DDD a good character
- he's heavy
- he's Strong
- He's got a good recovery
- He has a spammy projectile that counters most other porjectiles
- He has good range
- He's frustrating to approach.
- Has aWoP
- Has a Chain grab


... now let's look at what zelda has to say about each point in turn
-So he's heavy? This is still true Vs. Zelda... but the fact that she can compete with IKE for total number of kill moves and that he's a giant, wobbling target makes this advantage one that DDD can't rely on like a crutch.
-yes... he's strong.. so Zelda has to watch out... luckily, it'll be hard for him to land those strong moves, but Zelda's light... this is still n advantage.
-It's a good recovery... but it's also a very PUNISHABLE recovery... and, oh, Zelda CAN punish it.
- His projectile is significantly outspammed by din's fire.
- Zelda has good range too... and hers comes with more reliable speed meaning that some of his biggest moves just won't likely connect.
-Luckily... Zelda doesn't have to approach... DDD does... and his approach game is... lakcing... at best
- WoP is nigh useless against Zelda's recovery because, for all its faults, it DOES still succede in teleporting right thorough enemies.
- nanananana... you can't chain grab Zelda.

for once i actually agree with u sonic lol, zelda does pwn DDD in nearly every aspect of his game, i've seen DDD hit by so many lightning kicks its not even funny, that fat penguin can't get away from those if his life depended on it, and unfortunately it does depend on it.

So... it's not JUST that Zelda does well against him... it's ALSO... maybe even moreseo that she counters all his reliable benefits.



now as for stages... Unless you pick a DDD friendly AND anti-zelda stage, I think you'll be fine.

I honestly don't have a huge preference here:
Luigi's mansion, Battlefield, Smashville and Final Destination all have their advatages and I like all of them for different reasons with the matchup... I just don't like lylat cruise for it.

as for the numerical value of the matchup.... it's heavily in zelda's favour... 70:30 I'd say. maybe once zelda's get better it'll be even worse for DDD since Zelda literally has about everything on him in this matchup.

 

[Takumaru]

I'll be presenting DDD's side of the case. Or as some people call it the "anti-zelda" side.

While DDD can't CG zelda he still has other options against her. His ftilt out ranges anything zelda has on the ground and he can use that to keep her away. Sure DDD takes LKs like a ***** but all he needs to do is bait zelda into using one and either perfect shield it or just shield grab her. He doesn't need to chain grab her, he just needs to keep her at bay and space Bairs and ftilts. If zelda is unlucky enough to get above him Utilt is a very reliable kill move and it's fast.

Another things DDD can do is bait a smash from zelda with his multiple jumps. He has the option to approach with his back turned, get zelda to whiff a Usmash and then smack her for it. In essence using his multiple jumps to space vertically like peach or bait like jigglypuff.

As for zelda's recovery, it's easily predicted and all DDD needs to do is land one clean hit on her to keep her off the edge and eventually kill her. This isn't easy for DDD but if he's patient and catches some of zelda's common mistake's she'll make he has a fighting chance.

 

[Villi]

Even if DDD can't chaingrab you, he can still follow up with an ftilt. If he sees you trying to sidestep, he can kill you with his dash attack after a downthrow, so careful of that.

I've played matches where DDD would just throw out a bunch of waddle things waiting for a Gordo. Those will take you out really quick if you get hit by one, but I hear you can reflect them. Is that true? But yeah, Din's > Waddle things.

Some of my favorite lightning kick centric approaches in this match:

- fair, lol
- SH-fair/empty-SH to cross-up bair
- SH bair/dair to retreating rising double jumped bair.
- Full jump fair/nair/dair to crossed up bair.
- starting at around 90%, dtilt to fair

It's a LOT harder said than done to get behind a good DDD, since his hammer has so much range but they've all worked for me at the right times.

Does uair beat his dair? I don't remember if I've ever outprioritized it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'd doubt it just because DDD's dair has so much range.... it can go through toyr Usmash..... but DDD has TERRIBLE aerial mobility.... so just don't let him directly above you or shield it and that won't be an option.... it has a lot of landing/cooldown lag.


in response to taku:
DDD's Ftilt: it outranges zelda's attacks..... but it's also the only attack that DDD can use on the ground without Zelda leaving herself exposed first. Yes, it's a good move, BUT it, by itself, isn't enough. Zelda dominates his ground game. all she needs to do is get inside his hammer and she's faster, or stay out of its reach and din's.... and while Ftilt is going to allow him to hit you... it is not too terribly strong, so it's not even a huge threat.

DDD grabbing you: yeah. it happens. but he also tries to grab.... a lot, because it's what DDDs do... and he is really vulnerable if he misses. and his throws lack KO power, so it's not even too terribly threatening if he grabs you.

DDD Bair: scary at times? it can be..... but you can also just lightning kick him if he tries it against you in the air... and stuf him with Usmash or Fsmash depending on his placement if you are on the ground.

DDD baiting Zelda: yes, his multiple jumps allow a slight possibility for baiting Zelda.... but unlike peach, for example, DDD has absolutely awful aerial mobility. So really, he's going to have to try pretty dang hard to bait zelda since he can't just quickly change direction on a whim.

Zelda's recovery? Well actually I'd definitely give her the award for the better recovery in the match. not only is she invulnerable while she's using it, but she has options.... most of the time. DDD is slow... if he can't guess whether she's going to teleport here, there or she's going to sweetspot the ledge, then he's not going to punish her for it... whereas Zelda can see where DDD is going to land from a mile away.



It's not like DDD can't do anything in the matchup; he has ftilt, a decent grab game, an air game that offers him some proetection against lightning kicks (not enough) but, if you read taku's post, you see that just about everything that he said DDD can do requires that he get inside Zelda's head. the best way to look at that is to say: Don't get sloppy against DDD just because he's easy for us... he can sill kill us at low damages, so don't blindly jump into things.

Even so... yes... I've always admitted that DD can do SOME things against you... which is why I said it was 70:30.... because that's ALL he can do.... SOME things. if he didn't have Ftilt the matchup might even be 80:20... and his other advanatages are all that keep it from being 90:10 or 100:0

I knew as soon as the game came out that Zelda had everything necessary to counter DDD... but Omnigamer and Pyrogamer kinda shrugged me off when I told them this was the case... now I regularly decimate their DDDs with Zelda.... I'm not sure if I mentioned it before, but DDD has an AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL time trying to escape a zelda chaining her Usmashes at low damages.... omni never gave in I don't think... but pyro caved and hard... and omni would if he'd ever look at the matchup instead of just not caring

but seriously guys.... stages?

 

[Takumaru]

Stages... no preference. Just pick battle field or smashville. I can't think of any that gives either DDD or Zelda an obvious advantage outside of luigi's mansion for Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

okay... so Luigi's mansion unless it's banned by your oponent, in which case you choose battlefield or smashville... sure... that sounds like how I see it.

 

[Takumaru]

That's pretty much the formula for choosing a stage for all of zelda's match ups; pick either BF or smashville... unless you're against someone like marth in which case BF is bad.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Utilt cancels Din's Fire. Bair to I think, not sure.

DDD outranges her a lot, and she's quite easy to edge guard. I would consider the matchup in DDD's favor. Even if he can't chain grab her, it's almost as if she's one of the few light characters that DDD actually outspeeds.

Zelda does have some things going for her... For example it's easy to sweetspot her nair/bair/dair spike. If they had to play a spacing game, Zelda could at least somewhat control what DDD is doing via Din's Fire... But not to a very far extent.

Lots of Din's Fire vs. Waddle Dee in this matchup. Neither one wins, they're both good.

The bottom line is that DDD is slightly faster in the close range department, and super high damage bthrows and easy edgeguarding will be Zelda's down fall.

60:40 DDD imo

10doujinshis

 

[MorphedChaos]

DDD, while Zelda seems like a tough matchup for him, in reality she isn't. Nb is useless vs DDD as only gordos can be reflected, DDD can KO zelda at 92% with his Utilt even with DI, and many other things. While Zelda can combo DDD to oblivion and back, one waft move, and DDD will be all over you with his grab, and don't think your recovery is really good either, its as predictable as D3's jump.

While you may be able to sweetspot D3 really easy, don't think a good D3 will let you do that, as if you miss that, you'll eat a Bair, so be careful when doing it. And don't think about Din's fire spamming, D3's Utilt cancels it out. Also, don't fall for Tech chasing Mindgames, as they can mess you up, and get you in a Fsmash, which WILL kill you at 30%. And don't underestimate his inhale, your not a G&W, you don't have the spacing needed to slide into him with a smash.

Also, Norfair is a good D3 counter stage, as its basically his worst. Luigi's mansion is a good pick too. DO NOT try smashvile, thats one of his better stages, same for Halberd.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

DDD, while Zelda seems like a tough matchup for him, in reality she isn't. Nb is useless vs DDD as only gordos can be reflected, DDD can KO zelda at 92% with his Utilt even with DI, and many other things. While Zelda can combo DDD to oblivion and back, one waft move, and DDD will be all over you with his grab,

assuming zelda and DDD are making the same number of mistakes though... I mean you could just as easily go the other way and say that zelda will **** DDD's every mistake. Zelda can kill DDD almost as quickly as he'll likely kill her... and she has an easier time both getting DDD to that damage and landing a finishing blow.

and don't think your recovery is really good either, its as predictable as D3's jump.

it's not "good" but it's FAR less punishable by DDD than DDD's is to zelda.

While you may be able to sweetspot D3 really easy, don't think a good D3 will let you do that, as if you miss that, you'll eat a Bair, so be careful when doing it. And don't think about Din's fire spamming, D3's Utilt cancels it out. Also, don't fall for Tech chasing Mindgames, as they can mess you up, and get you in a Fsmash, which WILL kill you at 30%. And don't underestimate his inhale, your not a G&W, you don't have the spacing needed to slide into him with a smash.

lots of characters can cancel din's... that doesn't help him aborach her.... and bair does not always cancel dins if dins is behind DDD

Also, Norfair is a good D3 counter stage, as its basically his worst. Luigi's mansion is a good pick too. DO NOT try smashvile, thats one of his better stages, same for Halberd.

any stage where you can jump through the bottom of the main platform is unrecomended by me for this matchup

 

[goodkid]

I say its pretty even, because Zelda will have to work harder to get the kill even w/ the bigger target. D3 is pretty heavy too.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

bah. Zelda effectively counters almost every strength that DDD has and he does nothing at all to really damper her gameplay.

All he's got is that he's heavy and she's light... everything else is in zelda's favour... it's a simplistic picture, but not an entirely innacurate one. Zelda simply counters DDD... that simple.

it's possible the matchup is as low as 65:35... but I would not even say that. I say that it's no stretch at all to say that zelda is a hard counter for DDD. DDD has to work REALLY REALLY hard against Zelda compared to other characters. she can thuroughly slaughter him, as I've already pointed out... and I don't think any of the points I made have changed or are incorrect.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I dunno, it would have to be a showdown between you and Co18 then Sonic, that would prove who has an easier time with whom.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

is Co18 comparable in skill to me? could we play IRL or would it have to be wifi?