ZeRo calls Chrom the second best character in the game, the best swordsman in the game, and a better Roy

[Deleted member]

Thoughts?

 

[staindgrey]

I said this in the general discussion forum, but:

I think that unless a patch changes things, the Marth clones are going to more or less dominate the meta in the early goings. They're all extremely good and easy to pick up, with their only really exploitable weaknesses being their meh recovery. In Chrom's case, he has a terrible recovery, but he's also the best of the four when on the stage. Until the meta starts to lean into the direction of "counterpick characters who are specifically good against Chrom & friends", I can totally see Chrom being in the top three best characters. He simply has so much going for him that actually getting him off the stage before you lose a stock of your own is very difficult.

 

[Arthur97]

I don't trust this guy that much though. Didn't he say Roy was top tier in 4?

 

[Sari]

I think Chrom is great but I have no idea why ZeRo would make a tier list when the game hasn't even been out for 2 weeks.

 

[staindgrey]

I think Chrom is great but I have no idea why ZeRo would make a tier list when the game hasn't even been out for 2 weeks.

Because people will listen. He has a huge following and the more people talk about/watch/share his stuff, the more money he makes.

That said, he's taking a mature approach and stating multiple times that these are his impressions and he splits them into very large groups that are due to change. This isn't an objective tier list so much as "what the best Smash 4 player thinks of each character's viability". Which, while not at all final, is worthy of discussion. Especially when a character like Chrom, who most assumed would be lower tier due to his abysmal recovery, is his second favorite.

 

[Arthur97]

I also resent this list. It uses Female Robin.

 

[Deleted member]

Great for Chrom.

He finally got his chance.

 

[Deleted member]

I also resent this list. It uses Female Robin.

Objectively:
M!Robin>F!Robin
F!Corrin>M!Corrin
F!Inkling>M!Inkling
Olimar>Alph

 

[Diddy Kong]

I told you all he was gonna be crazy. I literally told you all so. Him having the same speed as Roy and frame data but with Lucina's sword functions already made him better on paper. But noooooooo.. people denied cause... hE cAn'T rEcOvEr. Now look at them.

Also, Inkling being the best I agree with. I absolutely HATE fighting them.

 

[LightningHelix]

Objectively:
M!Robin>F!Robin
F!Corrin>M!Corrin
F!Inkling>M!Inkling
Olimar>Alph

Which WiiFit Trainer Should I play?

 

[Arthur97]

Objectively:
M!Robin>F!Robin
F!Corrin>M!Corrin
F!Inkling>M!Inkling
Olimar>Alph

I can generally get behind this. Inklings are about the same to me though.

 

[Deleted member]

Which WiiFit Trainer Should I play?

both are valid, prefer male though

 

[Izanagi97]

I told you all he was gonna be crazy. I literally told you all so. Him having the same speed as Roy and frame data but with Lucina's sword functions already made him better on paper. But noooooooo.. people denied cause... hE cAn'T rEcOvEr. Now look at them.

Also, Inkling being the best I agree with. I absolutely HATE fighting them.

Some people still think that a character having a bad recovery means all they have to do is "just gimp him", completely forgetting they have to win the neutral first and put the opponent into a disadvantage state.

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

Imagine getting gimped by double forward air

This post was made by Ness gang

 

[Deleted member]

Imagine getting gimped by double forward air

This post was made by Ness gang

imagine dying at 70 to a bull**** lucky f-smash that just barely grazed you

this post approved by chrom gang

 

[Diddy Kong]

Imagine slipping, sliding and then dying by monkey fists.

Post approved by Diddy Gang.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

I still think Roy is better overall, but we'll see what happens as time goes on. I'll be playing both, because they cover different match-ups in my experience, but overall I feel Roy doing better against more characters when I play them. I'm also just some dude, so, ya know. Chrom is really good though.

 

[Scottfrankd]

I told you all he was gonna be crazy. I literally told you all so. Him having the same speed as Roy and frame data but with Lucina's sword functions already made him better on paper. But noooooooo.. people denied cause... hE cAn'T rEcOvEr. Now look at them.

Also, Inkling being the best I agree with. I absolutely HATE fighting them.

I'd have no problem fighting the Inklings if their animations were made more obvious.
I struggle knowing whether they are rolling or dashing.
Also, good look spotting them in vibrantly coloured stages.

Windy Hill with Green Inkling/ Retro F-Zero FD or Battlefield against Yellow Inkling. They essentially disappear when they dash.

 

[Arthur97]

I'd have no problem fighting the Inklings if their animations were made more obvious.
I struggle knowing whether they are rolling or dashing.
Also, good look spotting them in vibrantly coloured stages.

Windy Hill with Green Inkling/ Retro F-Zero FD or Battlefield against Yellow Inkling. They essentially disappear when they dash.

I just wish the roller didn't bury. The main change I would really make to them. Other than that, I recommend caution this early on.

 

[Scottfrankd]

I just wish the roller didn't bury. The main change I would really make to them. Other than that, I recommend caution this early on.

I could live with the roller if it didn't come out as quickly as it does, or if it was weaker the less ink you have (don't know if that's a thing already)

EDIT: does the roller also ignore shield?

 

[Arrei]

I could live with the roller if it didn't come out as quickly as it does, or if it was weaker the less ink you have (don't know if that's a thing already)

EDIT: does the roller also ignore shield?

It gets stopped by shield and does not cross up, but Inkling can jump out of it faster than you can shield grab so you have to use an OoS option. I'm of the opinion that bury moves in general have too much reward for what risk you take using them, and I don't know why they removed the knockback reduction that Smash 4 inflicted when buried.


I'm just finding it a tad strange that people like Zero and Leffen continue to call Roy's sourspots a big reason he's worse than Chrom, but in Smash 4 one of the arguments people made for Marth being better than Lucina was that his sourspots gave him two different potential rewards he could use for combos, and Roy could very well be capable of confirming sourspots into kill moves.

 

[Scottfrankd]

It gets stopped by shield and does not cross up, but Inkling can jump out of it faster than you can shield grab so you have to use an OoS option. I'm of the opinion that bury moves in general have too much reward for what risk you take using them, and I don't know why they removed the knockback reduction that Smash 4 inflicted when buried.


I'm just finding it a tad strange that people like Zero and Leffen continue to call Roy's sourspots a big reason he's worse than Chrom, but in Smash 4 one of the arguments people made for Marth being better than Lucina was that his sourspots gave him two different potential rewards he could use for combos, and Roy could very well be capable of confirming sourspots into kill moves.

I think you're buried for way too long in Ultimate, and the options out of burying are too easily accessible. I mean, the fact that K. Rool can do it with a grab and act immediately after it with a kill move is crazy. Inklings is too mobile and easy to move in/out of, and Donkey Kongs has super armour, so it's harder to punish an attempt.

The only reason that I would currently rate Chrom and Lucina above their counterparts is ease of use, and I suspect that's why most people are gravitating towards them. Given time and practice, that opinion will most likely change - we're barely 2 weeks into Ultimate.

 

[Solaris_Noid]

Yeah, I think Chrom will definitely phase out once we start getting three or four of them in top 8 lol.

Also ditto on the bury. Is there a good way to mash out of it, because I played a K.Rool yesterday who buried me with down throw and he read my jump afterward and killed me off it. Thankfully I haven't played any Inklings that are that aware (yet)

 

[Scottfrankd]

Yeah, I think Chrom will definitely phase out once we start getting three or four of them in top 8 lol.

Also ditto on the bury. Is there a good way to mash out of it, because I played a K.Rool yesterday who buried me with down throw and he read my jump afterward and killed me off it. Thankfully I haven't played any Inklings that are that aware (yet)

I'm not entirely sure, other than rapidly rolling the stick and mashing A.
Try messing with it in Training mode. You can visibly see how fast you're mashing based on how quick your character wriggles.
See what the visual indicators are and then see what the fastest, most controlled method is to get out.

I've just been mashing the buttons and rolling the stick like crazy, but that obviously means you're not reliably handling your movements once you're out of being buried. I might test this when I get home.

 

[Arthur97]

I think you're buried for way too long in Ultimate, and the options out of burying are too easily accessible. I mean, the fact that K. Rool can do it with a grab and act immediately after it with a kill move is crazy. Inklings is too mobile and easy to move in/out of, and Donkey Kongs has super armour, so it's harder to punish an attempt.

The only reason that I would currently rate Chrom and Lucina above their counterparts is ease of use, and I suspect that's why most people are gravitating towards them. Given time and practice, that opinion will most likely change - we're barely 2 weeks into Ultimate.

It does not ignore shields.

And from what I've read, the new engine favors Lucina's even damage, and Chrom's gives him more effective range at the cost of a worse recovery, but as we've seen, that effective range is quite effective. That said, in the long run I'm not sure if the community would rank Marth higher than Lucina just out of bias.

 

[Wumbo105]

I'm just finding it a tad strange that people like Zero and Leffen continue to call Roy's sourspots a big reason he's worse than Chrom, but in Smash 4 one of the arguments people made for Marth being better than Lucina was that his sourspots gave him two different potential rewards he could use for combos, and Roy could very well be capable of confirming sourspots into kill moves.

That is because Roy's sourspots are unfortunately at the tip of the sword, opposite of Marth. Competitive play, no matter what character you're using, revolves around spacing and safety, which is why Marth benefits comes back in dividends. Roy's mechanic is counter productive to what is needed to succeed in very high levels.

Basically, if you are playing correctly and spacing well Marth gets better, while having good spacing makes Roy worse. He has a sword but you gotta play him as a non-swordie and that's not good.

 

[Scottfrankd]

That is because Roy's sourspots are unfortunately at the tip of the sword, opposite of Marth. Competitive play, no matter what character you're using, revolves around spacing and safety, which is why Marth benefits comes back in dividends. Roy's mechanic is counter productive to what is needed to succeed in very high levels.

Basically, if you are playing correctly and spacing well Marth gets better, while having good spacing makes Roy worse. He has a sword but you gotta play him as a non-swordie and that's not good.

That's probably why Roy is doing so well in Ultimate initially, since shields are weaker and allow more rewards for closer challenges. Like you said though, spacing is key either way and that's where Chrom succeeds over Roy - he can attack from a safer distance and deal more damage while doing so.

 

[Arrei]

While yes, that much has oft been said, the distinction matters less if Roy is theoretically able to convert sour hits into combos, which may or may not include sweetspot hits, does it not? And the comparison was Roy vs. Chrom anyhow, who certainly possesses some pretty frightening power as reward for his spacing, but not having the option to land sourspots may also make it harder to land combos at ranges where Roy can land a limp noodle and follow up with something meatier.

All theoretical, of course.



I'm also of the mind Chrom fans shouldn't pop off about his strength too much, lest he draw the attention of the Nerf Monster and lose his power while continuing to be saddled with his recovery issues, but that's a separate issue. I remain skeptical that his recovery won't prove to be a massive handicap on him as the meta matures.

 

[Scottfrankd]

While yes, that much has oft been said, the distinction matters less if Roy is theoretically able to convert sour hits into combos, which may or may not include sweetspot hits, does it not? And the comparison was Roy vs. Chrom anyhow, who certainly possesses some pretty frightening power as reward for his spacing, but not having the option to land sourspots may also make it harder to land combos at ranges where Roy can land a limp noodle and follow up with something meatier.

All theoretical, of course.

If you can land combos reliably and get better rewards with Roy than Chrom, then it wouldn't matter if you didn't land every sweetspot. I think it's just that on paper the average player, or a majority of players, are going to have more success initially with Chrom because the learning curve isn't as steep.

 

[WumboTheSecond]

I hope he changes his mind about some of the choices. Some of the characters in mid tiers deserve to be placed higher

 

[Scottfrankd]

I hope he changes his mind about some of the choices. Some of the characters in mid tiers deserve to be placed higher

I'm personally of the mindset that it's too early to tell. The tier list will absolutely change, whether it's through inevitable patches or simply just having the game for more than 2 weeks.

For example, I initially though K. Rool was broken, but that's just because I haven't fought a character like that in any Smash game before. After a weeks practice, I can say he's irritating, but manageable.

 

[WumboTheSecond]

I'm personally of the mindset that it's too early to tell. The tier list will absolutely change, whether it's through inevitable patches or simply just having the game for more than 2 weeks.

For example, I initially though K. Rool was broken, but that's just because I haven't fought a character like that in any Smash game before. After a weeks practice, I can say he's irritating, but manageable.

Yeah I think you're right, it is a little early but we will see I guess

 

[Scottfrankd]

Yeah I think you're right, it is a little early but we will see I guess

All that being said, I am surprised he has rated Wii Fit and Wolf as Mid tier - well, each to their own.
I've seen some insane stuff with those 2 characters - I guess a lot of characters are classed as mid tier because they require a lot more input than some of the higher tiers.

 

[Solaris_Noid]

All that being said, I am surprised he has rated Wii Fit and Wolf as Mid tier - well, each to their own.
I've seen some insane stuff with those 2 characters - I guess a lot of characters are classed as mid tier because they require a lot more input than some of the higher tiers.

Tiers are weird in the sense in that some people will factor in character execution along with their tools. I think Wolf is definitely high tier, or at the very least upper mid.

 

[Scottfrankd]

Tiers are weird in the sense in that some people will factor in character execution along with their tools. I think Wolf is definitely high tier, or at the very least upper mid.

I personally like Shofu's Wolf - and his advice for being a top tier Wolf player.

Press B

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Beimg as used to Roy's sourspots as I am, plus the new engine making offense safer in general, is making me wonder if "proper spacing" with Roy is still plenty safe even with less shield stun. I seriously haven't had any problems with getting punished for spacing his aerials and tilts, and his reward for hits seems better as long as you you know to convert sourspots hits into sweetspot strings. For example, getting a random Chrom fsmash or ftilt from full range is stronger than with Roy, but I don't really go for random stuff because it gets me hit, while comboing or trapping into the moves lets me just space for the inside of the sword regardless and just kill sooner with Roy. Seriously, try Roy's ftilt vs Chrom's. World of difference in kill power, Chrom's is easier on *average* by design, but stringing stuff into Roy's, or trapping into it, definitely gets much bigger reward at much lower kill percentages. #opinions

EDIT: Not trying to derail this thread, I'll stop bringing up Roy. Peace

 

[DiamondDust132]

I also resent this list. It uses Female Robin.

You speak as if there's any other kind of Robin.

But yeah, Chrom is pretty ridiculous. I feel the idea with Lucina not having a sweetspot was 'you don't have to think about her spacing, but you don't get early kills like Marth's tipper.' The whole idea of no sweetspot with a Roy clone doesn't really work because Roy still hits like a truck even if you miss the sweetspot. So that's what's happening with Chrom. Someone above me said it, but getting him off stage to exploit his bad recovery is easier said than done.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I wasn’t sure how I felt about it at first, but the more I play Roy and Chrom, the more I’m beginning to understand why Chrom is considered better. Between the amazing ground mobility, powerful attacks, and Aethercide jank, Chrom is pretty much Smash 4 Cloud without Limit.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

I wasn’t sure how I felt about it at first, but the more I play Roy and Chrom, the more I’m beginning to understand why Chrom is considered better. Between the amazing ground mobility, powerful attacks, and Aethercide jank, Chrom is pretty much Smash 4 Cloud without Limit.

Except with a shorter sword, no lingering hitboxes, no projectile, no aerial that covers literally all around him quickly, and arguably worse gimping ability.

 

[Captain Sa10]

I’d just like to say that I feel both Chrom and Roy, while technically similar, play different from one and other. This really comes down to the base difference in their blades with Roy having his sweet/sour spot’s and the balanced blade of Chrom akin to Lucina.

By comparison Chrom actually plays more like a mix of Marth/Lucina/Roy:

-able to use his max range more freely
-Solid DED
-Excellent Aerials
-Solid ground game (dash dance, jab, f-tilt, spaced d-tilt)
-Stock exchange via up-b
-Powerful OoS options and Up-B reversal

I feel Roy has most of the same minus points 1, 5, and a weaker Up-B reversal. Because of those points not being as valid with Roy I feel that he was always meant to play more grounded than Chrom. Idk if anyone has seen or agrees with this, but I was watching a bit of Sethlon the other day and I truly appreciated his play. His movement, space control, use of DED, etc. where just on point.

Granted I’ve been watching Sethlon since Melee so maybe I’m fanboying just a bit, but still. He was super solid and vastly different from other players I’ve seen/played.