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All Purpose Donkey Kong Thread

LiveStudioAudience

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Finally picked up DKC Returns for Switch (which I can justify triple dipping on via, no joke, finding a hundred-dollar bill on the sidewalk), beat the first two worlds. I'm doing an all Kong Letters run in original mode, will likely do a puzzle piece run in modern mode, but wanted to give my thoughts now.

Firstly, it's nice to value Diddy again. He's fine in Tropical Freeze but Dixie is so broken in that game that Diddy often only got selected for very particular levels (and sometimes just certain bits of that level). Here you really feel the absence of him when he's gone, and I had forgotten it almost has the feel of a different style platformer when you can't rely on him.

Secondly, for all the graphical issues people have brought up, the HD visuals really do allow you to appreciate the aesthetics of different levels much more. Especially as someone that hadn't played Returns on a TV in almost a dozen years (and was last on a CRT via the Wii version) there is a very lovely looking game here. It lacks the same kind of imagination filling wonder of the 90s games, but there is some solid little world building in the background details even with as chaotic as the levels get.

Finally, in playing this with an 8bitdo SN30 controller, it makes me all the more baffled that it took this long to get proper SNES style controls for this game. The waggle insistence for the Wii and the lack of customization with 3DS controls (with certain button layouts locked to either d-pad or control stick) is why I'm so glad that era of Nintendo obstinance with player choice is largely over. The ability to use the Classic Controller back in 2010 would have left me with a much better impression of Returns and probably would have me going back to it with more frequency than I have.

But yeah, while its overpriced, lacking in new features, and really should have come out 3-4 years ago, this does feel like the definitive version of Returns.
 
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I COULD have gotten DKC Returns, but unlike how I got Tropical Freeze on Switch after having never played the Wii U version, I decided I wasn't going to get Returns HD despite never playing the Wii or 3DS versions. I suppose I wasn't willing to spend sixty bucks on its predecessor when I already have the more improved Tropical Freeze.

Releasing both games in opposite order, what were you thinking, Nintendo... (btw that was rhetorical)
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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I would recommend picking up Returns at some point (even if you have to wait for a used copy or discount). While not as strong as Tropical Freeze, it is a very enjoyable platformer with different kind of pace to its sequel (more, shorter levels vs TF's fewer, longer levels).

Incidentally having played more of the former since my last post, I've realized both games have their lowest points from their respective fourth worlds (Cave in Returns, Sea Breaze Cove in Tropical Freeze) and largely for the same reason. Both rely too heavily on a particular level type/s that differ so much from the platforming seen in the rest of the game and that in combination with the design flaws of such levels mean that both are a bit of a chore. The swimming in TF is fine, but the slower pace of it in already decently long levels means the kinetic energy DKC thrives on is a bit lost, not helped by some stages becoming full blown puzzle hunts which doesn't do much for replay value.

The constant mine cart and rocket barrel stages for the aforementioned world in Returns aren't much better, so dependent on very specific movement/jumps as the exact right time that eventually finishing them feels less like an accomplishment and more an acknowledgement of good memorization. DKC is at its strongest when it necessitates skill with its platforming without requiring an ultra-specific way of executing it. The four temple stages of the game I've beaten so far were far less of a pain than the Bombs Away level was because the former still let you beat them in your own way vs the latter demanding precise button inputs due to cheap level design.

Basically, if Retro does ever do another DKC game, some restraint in indulging with level types for a certain world might be warranted.
 
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Diddy Kong

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While Returns feels way more balanced than Tropical Freeze, the overabundance of difficult Minecart and Rocket Barrel levels doesn't help with its pacing. I overall feel Returns tries to be a homage to DKC1 in many ways, with the level archetypes matching DKC1 quite a lot.

They went best with their own creativity in the Beach, Cave and Factory worlds. But the Jungle and Forest are quite reminiscent of DKC1. And that's okay. However, I feel Returns really needs DKC1's succes to be as noteworthy as it is. And that's okay too, cause I'll forever love that game.

I generally feel levels are a little too short in Returns and sometimes too long in Tropical Freeze. Tropical Freeze stands more strong as its own game however, but, I don't know which of the two I prefer. Returns has its strong points too. I especially like that Diddy is more usable. And the K levels are amazing. However Tropical Freeze has the Savanna levels and frozen DK Isle that blow me away every time.... Real hard choice which game I prefer.

Generally I'd say nothing beats DKC2 for me anyway. The sheer amount of quality levels, music, the characters working together and being so balanced (Diddy has his definite advantages over Dixie I feel), the Animal Buddies, the bosses and overall designs and "feel" is hard to match. Only DKC1 matches it, but it being the first game and having such weird bonus level system and bad bosses doesn't make me think of it as the exact same quality as DKC2. However it does hold its own against Returns and Tropical Freeze.

To me, I'd rank the games the following: DKC2>> DKC1 / Returns / Tropical Freeze > DKC3. Sorry DKC3, I love you but there's a reason you're the odd one out.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Ranking wise recent playthroughs have confirmed the following
1. DKC2
2. DKC Tropical Freeze
3. DKC 3
4. DKC Returns (HD version)
5. DKC

I've become a bit softer on DKC3 over time. Its beginning and end don't quite stick the landing, but the middle portion is quite good. My estimation of Returns has definitely gone up now that I have proper d-pad controls so there's a chance it could supplant Dixie's Double Trouble if the rest of the worlds hold up better than the Caves.

The low ranking for Country 1 is no harsh judgement though. The kind of level depth that the Country games excel at was still somewhat in its infancy with that first DKC release and it still has one of its feet in the Mario mold with certain gameplay design with it being Diddy's Kong Quest that really gave the series the full-blown Country identity. However, the first game is a breezier experience if you don't really care about bonus rooms and just want a fun kinetic platformer to go through for a few hours as well as having the second-best aesthetics behind DKC2.
 
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Also Funky Kong and his easy difficulty was what got me interested in the last game, forgot to mention that.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Just finished off two more worlds, and man this is where Returns really ups its game. I had forgotten how good Forest was and especially after the gimmicky nature of the Caves, it really stands out. The woods aesthetics are wonderful, the level ideas consistently work, and it's the first world that really feels like it is taking a setting from the classic DKC titles and not just utilizing it again but arguably executing it with platforming concepts to an even stronger degree. Vine Valley from DC1 has wonderful backgrounds/music and the redwood tree style stuff in DKC3 is distinct, but something about Returns being in the deep woods with the mushrooms just comes together near perfectly.

The Cliff is another standout. While not making the best first impression (Sticky Situation has no flow whatsoever to its design and Prehistoric Path leans a bit too much on memorization) the rest makes really strong use of an area that's still pretty distinct to Donkey Kong and each of the stage gimmicks lasts just long enough to be interesting without overstaying its welcome. The dinosaur skeleton enemies are fun mooks even if some more variety with them would have been nice.

Jungle, Beach, and Ruins were all very solid, but one can almost sense the more the game goes on, the more you feel Retro really having a better understanding of creative stage design and more organic connection of background elements to the actual platforming. Looking forward to experiencing Factory and Volcano and seeing the trend continue.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Beach , Jungle and Cliff where my favorite worlds in Returns for sure. Jungle was more or less something expected, we will always have jungles in a Donkey Kong Country. I wouldn't want a game without them, even 2 and 3 had them (3 executed way less exciting tho). But nevertheless they did a great job here and it delivers high expectations for the rest of the game.

I really think I only really love the worlds Bright Savanna, Lost Mangroves and Frozen DK Island in Tropical Freeze to a same degree. However only the latter two I find excellent. Tropical Freeze wins on individual levels, not so much world archetypes where I felt everything is amazing like Returns. I do like the Autumn Heights and Sea Breeze Coves too, I just don't find them excellent, I just like their uniqueness.

Then here comes DKC2, I absolutely love all the worlds there. And even if I don't, the individual levels make up for it greatly. It also just starts out amazing and ends with a big blow too. Just everything about it is hype.

However I gotta say nothing really beats the pure aesthetics of the original. Gameplay is amazing sure but you just feel like you're playing a piece of moving art. Nothing really compares to it. That's why I rank it so highly. In terms of gameplay, DKC3 might even be better I admit. It just doesn't play as impressively even if it has such unique gameplay (however it also doesn't score that high cause it tries to be too weird and different, sometimes leading to annoying levels).
 
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It's the truth. Not only DK but Diddy has an extra heart too. That's 6 total hearts without items further boosting it. You'll manage. It's a great game, to me it also doesn't fall short to Tropical Freeze. Worth picking up for sure.
I should point out, even with those points, I can't afford to buy every single game in existence even if they're recommended to me. There's a few other games I really want to get even more than Returns HD at this point in time. But I can't say here because none of them are Donkey Kong related...unless you count Super Mario Party Jamboree (which I plan to main Pauline, who technically also counts here too since she was in the arcade original)
 
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Diddy Kong

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I should point out, even with those points, I can't afford to buy every single game in existence even if they're recommended to me. There's a few other games I really want to get even more than Returns HD at this point in time. But I can't say here because none of them are Donkey Kong related...unless you count Super Mario Party Jamboree (which I plan to main Pauline, who technically also counts here too since she was in the arcade original)
I really get this. I myself won't be buying games much either. Made an exception for DKCR HD because, well I wanted to buy the game mostly to let Nintendo know DKC is still beloved. I will probably switch back to older games after this all.

However after my last post, I realise I prefer the Rare created DKC over the Retro created DKC games. Not by a large margin, but significantly enough still. Mostly because of DKC2 however, cause quality wise, the original and the Retro games are quite similar. And DKC3 a little worse, but to be fair it wasn't even made by the same team.

I might just run a DKC marathon one of these days. Gonna play them all in order. Not in one go, but the thought exites me nonetheless
 

LiveStudioAudience

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I was going to wait till I finished Volcano to give more thoughts about Returns HD as I'd been knocking out two worlds in each play session, but Factory was striking enough to warrant some talk. Another strong world and a great use of the individual level gimmicks like in the two previous ones.

The only real weaknesses to it are that locking map progression to buttons found in secret level rooms is an odd concept to introduce seven worlds in and that aesthetics (particularly the choice in color) just don't pop as much as the Factory settings in DKC1 or 3. The former has some great light and dark contrast while the latter manages to make the stages grimy yet still a bit vibrant. Returns' by contrast feel at bit standard, with use of red metal being a nice (unintentional?) shout out to the original DK, but largely feeling about what you'd expect from your typical platformer stage of this type. One can definitely sense that Tropical Freeze was their chance to take the same tropes and be far more creative with it visually.

The only other observation is that DKCR's difficulty often doesn't feel like it escalates consistently. Granted it's all relative to individual players, but the Factory Temple stage is much easier than the previous two and Feathered Fiend has a far easier second phase than the first. Maybe its Retro being merciful; it's just strange to knock out 7-K on the third attempt when 6-K was the first stage that had me close to utilizing Banana Juice just for how tricky it was.
 

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I was going to wait till I finished Volcano to give more thoughts about Returns HD as I'd been knocking out two worlds in each play session, but Factory was striking enough to warrant some talk. Another strong world and a great use of the individual level gimmicks like in the two previous ones.

The only real weaknesses to it are that locking map progression to buttons found in secret level rooms is an odd concept to introduce seven worlds in and that aesthetics (particularly the choice in color) just don't pop as much as the Factory settings in DKC1 or 3. The former has some great light and dark contrast while the latter manages to make the stages grimy yet still a bit vibrant. Returns' by contrast feel at bit standard, with use of red metal being a nice (unintentional?) shout out to the original DK, but largely feeling about what you'd expect from your typical platformer stage of this type. One can definitely sense that Tropical Freeze was their chance to take the same tropes and be far more creative with it visually.

The only other observation is that DKCR's difficulty often doesn't feel like it escalates consistently. Granted it's all relative to individual players, but the Factory Temple stage is much easier than the previous two and Feathered Fiend has a far easier second phase than the first. Maybe its Retro being merciful; it's just strange to knock out 7-K on the third attempt when 6-K was the first stage that had me close to utilizing Banana Juice just for how tricky it was.
I do love the boss of factory. I admit I can't remember how tough the fight was but the concept of it alone is brilliant
 

LiveStudioAudience

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I do love the boss of factory. I admit I can't remember how tough the fight was but the concept of it alone is brilliant
It's very creative, most certainly. It's just that the first half has a combination of tediously waiting for the chicken in the walker to move and a lot of its landings have very little telegraph on whether you'll be safe if you're underneath. The second, where it goes flying around, dropping down eggs of mechanical chickens and occasionally landing? It's a much quicker phase but far better in giving warning as to what to avoid.
 

fogbadge

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It's very creative, most certainly. It's just that the first half has a combination of tediously waiting for the chicken in the walker to move and a lot of its landings have very little telegraph on whether you'll be safe if you're underneath. The second, where it goes flying around, dropping down eggs of mechanical chickens and occasionally landing? It's a much quicker phase but far better in giving warning as to what to avoid.
I found it hard not to love a chicken in a mech
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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Volcano and Cloud Worlds done and I've beaten DKC Returns in Original Mode. Before I do general opinions on the game, some thoughts on those last two worlds. Volcano is a pretty solid note for the main game to go out on. 8-2 has many of the same issues as most rocket barrel levels, but its difficulty feels at least justified given it is the last traditional world. I actually like the Rocket section before Tiki Tong, but it not being separate levels just feels like an unnecessary bit of padding before the final boss and if it something had to be there, an actual platformer level would have been preferred.

Cloud was quite fun and the level design (even the mine cart tribute to the Cave) are so well designed it makes me further lament that Monster Games never got the chance to do their own DKC title. If Retro couldn't finish out the trilogy, MG doing their 3DS game for something like 2016 release would have really beefed up the franchise (and heck would have given Nintendo another game to port on Switch). You can really sense they learned from the highs and lows of the original Returns release with the ninth world and after the difficulties of Volcano playing the extra levels really were a refreshing experience.

As far as the game itself and where it ranks among the Country releases? Controversial opinion but to me DKC Returns HD is the 3rd or 4th best game in the series depending on which mode you're playing. With Modern Mode the difficulty feels balanced, there's still strong challenge if one's interested, and there's enough standout ideas with level concepts that it just barely puts it above DKC3. If you're playing Original Mode, it becomes a slightly lesser game than Dixie's Triple Trouble with just certain sections that just drag it down a bit too much. That might seem odd to not cite the intended difficulty as the definitive one, but there's reason for that.

Yeah, it's the mine cart and rocket barrel sections. The aesthetics are well crafted and the sheer spectacle in both is fantastic. But playing them without stuff like the crash guard or extra hearts, it leans too much into unfair stage design and becomes a less interesting release than the rest of the game around it. Difficulty with depth is what I like about DKC and within Returns' original mode, the latter just feels a bit lost because these rely too much on a very specific memorization and exact mastery of the level space to beat them.

That's not a knock on Retro, it was their first DKC game and for a first attempt the game is a masterful execution of strong platformer design. It's just that they needed a sequel like Tropical Freeze refine things like the Rocket Barrel and Mine Cart sections into more balanced experiences while making the spectacle even more impressive. Finally playing this without waggle, on a big screen, with a proper controller does real justice to what Returns is. I'm actually tempted to start a new game in Modern Mode for getting puzzle pieces despite just beating it and despite the occasional recent frustrations; that's some of the highest praise I can offer a platformer.
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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And with that, all Kong Letters and Puzzle Pieces in Modern Mode collected and my time (at least for a while) with DKC Returns is done. Having now gone through the game twice, have my thoughts changed since that first initial playthrough? Well, somewhat. The game's highlights and lowlights are better illustrated in this second go around.

Having to really explore the levels to find the pieces really does make one appreciate the depth and cleverness of the level design as even a platformer vet like me was occasionally stumped in locating them. Experience also does make the rocket barrel and minecart levels less of a pain (as knowing the crash guard is an option does help one's nerves) ... but their overall design still feels weaker than similar stages in games that came before it and the ones in Tropical Freeze after it. It's a shame because the 7-K temple stage is like something out of DKC1 but its overall execution is challenging without feeling cheap and it's a sign that Retro really did have a strong grasp on good platformer design in Returns when they weren't sticking so closely to a gimmick.

While there were other little contrasts to my first playthrough here and there (Volcano levels tend to drag a bit when looking for puzzle pieces and the blowing mechanic never quite feeling smooth) it was the bosses that stood out and not entirely positively. I wouldn't say they're outright bad (heck conceptually many of them are quite strong), but there's an awkwardness to their fights with pattern of attacks and doing jumps on them that few other games seemed to have. The Tiki Tong fight might be the only one where the weight of DK was ever a problem for me, as the difficulty took a complete 180 once I had Diddy to actually make those awkward jumps on the former in the second half. Whatever issues I may have with the bosses in Tropical Freeze and their pacing, I never once had the consistent weirdness with them like I did with the ones in Returns.

Overall though I'm glad I did this second playthrough because it finally game me closure on DKCR. I had greatly enjoyed the game in 2010 and had finished it, but there was always a sense that things felt incomplete because I hadn't done a 100% run (ie one that included all puzzle pieces). The waggle was such a turn off that coming back to the game just never felt enticing. The 3DS version offered a similar thing where I enjoyed it, yet the small screen and unnecessary insistence on locking specific button combinations to control stick vs d-pad meant the experience again felt compromised and left me less inclined to go beyond a Kong letters run. This version, even with all its contextual flaws (price, timing, lack of frills) allowed me to appreciate all of the game for the first time. Is it better than DKC3? I honestly don't know, but I'm happy to have a much more complete picture of Donkey Kong Country Returns.
 

Diddy Kong

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What DKC Returns does is basically being a love letter to the original without trying to be too obvious about it. They tried their best to form their own tag team mechanics, create their own world, and enemies, but the game feels like it rides off from DKC1 and its reputation and is a big homage to it.

It's the best that could be done at the given time. And I respect them for it. Especially since Tropical Freeze did its best to stand out more on its own, even if I feel the Snowmads where a homage to the Kremlings. Shame that Retro Studios never could deliver another game.
 

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So it finally happened. The new DK design is used as well. Guess that's good for something. The gameplay looks dynamic and fun. That's also a good thing.

Yet, I don't know, I feel estranged by this all. There's not a single returning character yet again. And it's getting repetitive now. Returns brought back the minimal, Tropical Freeze didn't exactly extend on that much, and here we are now.

Guess we gotta wait and see. It's Donkey Kong yeah, but the fact we haven't even so much as seen Diddy doesn't bode well.
 

Lenidem

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So it finally happened. The new DK design is used as well. Guess that's good for something. The gameplay looks dynamic and fun. That's also a good thing.

Yet, I don't know, I feel estranged by this all. There's not a single returning character yet again. And it's getting repetitive now. Returns brought back the minimal, Tropical Freeze didn't exactly extend on that much, and here we are now.

Guess we gotta wait and see. It's Donkey Kong yeah, but the fact we haven't even so much as seen Diddy doesn't bode well.
Same. Also, I really, really don't like the artistic direction.
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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FINALLY!!!!! A NEW DK and it's a 3D Platformer?!?!?! I'm buying the Switch 2😁😁😁
IT'S HAPPENING BUDDY

IT'S HAPPENING!!!



But as I had been observing so far next to MK World that happens to have all sorts of mooks playable yet no Diddy or Funky in sight,, I'm kinda worried the Rare DK and his crew feel like they're getting phased out... Not ready for that, not in a million years...



(Though again, I'm pretty sure that was Expresso that we saw in the trailer, so maaaaybe not all hope's lost?)
 

Diddy Kong

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Same. Also, I really, really don't like the artistic direction.
The art direction isn't my problem. It's purely the fact that there are no returning characters. Not even what Returns had. Diddy, Cranky and Rambi is the bare minimum.

Might just be a little too negative now. I'm hoping to see more with future updates.

But so far, its looking like a new Jungle Beat situation. With all that has happened during the last few years, this is just disappointing to me.
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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The art direction isn't my problem. It's purely the fact that there are no returning characters. Not even what Returns had. Diddy, Cranky and Rambi is the bare minimum.

Might just be a little too negative now. I'm hoping to see more with future updates.

But so far, its looking like a new Jungle Beat situation. With all that has happened during the last few years, this is just disappointing to me.
Yeah... I mean I like to imagine this ostrich here might inspired by Expresso (or be some gender-flipped take on him)...





but yeah. Not sure what to feel if Switch 2 will essentially reboot DK outright... :nervous:
 
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BackseatSakurai

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The art direction isn't my problem. It's purely the fact that there are no returning characters. Not even what Returns had. Diddy, Cranky and Rambi is the bare minimum.
I'm right there with you. I do have a problem with the art direction (although I think DK's face looks great) but it's too much change all at once. Nothing about the gameplay we saw seems so inspired and fun that it justifies doing a clean-slate reboot, imo. I'm just confused as to what the vision is and want to know more desperately.
 

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Diddy Kong

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Make of this screenshot what you will
View attachment 400905
Kinda looks like a monkey that's similar enough to Diddy. Makes it easier to picture him in.

I mean, don't get me wrong, this game looks amazingly fun. And the way DK moves through the world is even more ecstatic. Exactly as I wanted. A sort beat em up 3D platformer.

I just really want my familiar elements and characters... It seems like my beloved series just feels estranged from me now, and it might just be the first impression, but damn. Did I wish to have just seen Diddy in there.

I don't expect K.Rool in this thing however. Maybe a next time. But this is not the one. And seeing that this is probably the 3D Mario team, means we won't get another one after this anytime soon. Which is a shame cause THIS gameplay with the other Kongs, Kremlings and K.Rool is literally a dream come true.
 

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IT'S HAPPENING BUDDY

IT'S HAPPENING!!!




But as I had been observing so far next to MK World that happens to have all sorts of mooks playable yet no Diddy or Funky in sight,, I'm kinda worried the Rare DK and his crew feel like they're getting phased out... Not ready for that, not in a million years...



(Though again, I'm pretty sure that was Expresso that we saw in the trailer, so maaaaybe not all hope's lost?)
Yeah, I'm a bit concerned but I'll reserve my judgement. I definitely don't see any hints of kremlings but I'm holding out hope for the other kongs and such.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Wanted to wait till I was on a proper computer to give my thoughts. Honestly, it's still surreal to think about. A major DK game being on the Switch 2 close to launch made sense, but as someone that had gotten sick of getting my hopes up every single Direct, I leaned towards caution. Seeing a Donkey Kong title be the major single player game for a Nintendo console was always a dream, just one I'd believed in less and less as time went on.

As far as the game itself? Looks remarkable. The power and destruction of DK himself was something Nintendo always leaned into, so I'm not surprised they went big on it here. His design still feels a bit too goofy for my taste, but he looks genuinely fun to play, and his sense of movement was maintained so I'm really hyped. While I understand the Jungle Beat comparisons, that game was so tethered to the bongo controls (even though they were optional) that in both gameplay potential and audience, there were going to be limits to it. Bananza feels like a title far more open and filled to the brim with depth and we're all the better off for it.

What's funny is that as someone who was somewhat excited at the brand elevation of DK prior to day, I still had a sense that it could only mean so much without a new game. Now that we have confirmation, I'd say both elements elevate each other. The merch, theme park, and media appearances indicate that Donkey Kong's legacy is going to be maintained, and Bonanza is proof positive that actual games will be a major investment. The brand work without a title eventually feels unfulfilling and the game in a vacuum would have me somewhat worried it was a brand reset. Both of them together though? Suddenly 2D games, spin-offs, and overall strategy with DK is back on the table and after so many years of uncertainty it's a damn good feeling to have again about the series.
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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There was a problem fetching the tweet

Full blown video of Cranky confirmed.

Incidentally as someone that constantly saw people saying a new DK couldn't (and some even said shouldn't) happen until Retro was done with Prime 4, it feels so nice to have games no longer dependent on them being free. Don't get me wrong, a new 2D Country title from them would be awesome; there' just something freeing about no longer having the series being defined as something to be done between Metroid titles.
 
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