Attention Fox Boards: Snake ***** Fox

[Emblem Lord]

Snakes f-tilt is frame 4 and outranges anything Fox has.

Frame data just 3 stocked Fox.

 

[DMG]

Snakes f-tilt is frame 4 and outranges anything Fox has.

Frame data just 3 stocked Fox.

Haha, see we need more of that. It doesn't matter what I say, or what anyone on the Fox boards says. Frame data speaks volumes over us.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Snakes f-tilt is frame 4 and outranges anything Fox has.

Frame data just 3 stocked Fox.

Doesn't outrange the laser =3

 

[NJzFinest]

I remember Cort saying Fox is great against Snake and does better then Falco.

His main reasons were Fox never having to approach, he has good ways to build damage, and shield drop to dash upsmash kills at 105%.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cort's reasoning was a$$.

 

[M@v]

Fox does decent vs snake, but falco ***** him.

 

[FzeroX]

Emblem Lord's reasoning was a$$.

Fixed that for ya.

 

[KheldarVII]

Ducking does not beat the lasers. As with Kirby, if you are ducking the lasers it is a test of patience.

Besides, Snake can approach as he can crawl forward.

 

[Zhamy]

Besides, Snake can approach as he can crawl forward.

Lulz. That's not an approach.

Snakes f-tilt is frame 4 and outranges anything Fox has.

EL, you can keep telling people that it's all about what tools the character has, but you still look like an idiot if you don't know how to use them. Sliding shield->Drop->Usmash.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't know, why you have so many problems to accept that. I remember the MK discussion: It took about 4 or 5 members of different character boards (scotu, EL, myself and half DMG and half Dojo) to convince you that Fox and MK aren't even.

It's a well established fact, that Snake owns Fox. It's time to face the facts and stop bringing up silly strawman arguments, like "Sliding Shield -> Drop -> Usmash". Do yourself a favour and accept that Snake wins againt Fox and you'll have an easier time against him. Lucien did the same.

 

[-Mars-]

I don't know, why you have so many problems to accept that. I remember the MK discussion: It took about 4 or 5 members of different character boards (scotu, EL, myself and half DMG and half Dojo) to convince you that Fox and MK aren't even.

It's a well established fact, that Snake owns Fox. It's time to face the facts and stop bringing up silly strawman arguments, like "Sliding Shield -> Drop -> Usmash". Do yourself a favour and accept that Snake wins againt Fox and you'll have an easier time against him. Lucien did the same.

To the contrary, tournament matches say otherwise.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

As if there were that many.

The only ones I can think of a very old (Lucien quit Fox and came back to Wolf between now and these matches) and they don't prove anything: He wins vs Psycho ****** and Meep, two inferior players and both of them lack match-up experience. He loses to DSF, who is a better player than him.

That's all.

If he played now against an equally good Snake such as Afro Thundah and if we assume Afro knows the match-up, there's no realistic chances to win for Lucien

tl;dr Old videos prove nohing

 

[Binx]

I'll agree that snake might beat fox, but you saying that fox has to approach because snake can duck lasers is ********, especially if you've already established the lasers are better than grenades, so if you both spam fox is at less damage and wins, I think its more like Marth vs melee Fox where Marth can win when close but cant do anything to laser spam if he refuses to approach.

 

[-Mars-]

As if there were that many.

The only ones I can think of a very old (Lucien quit Fox and came back to Wolf between now and these matches) and they don't prove anything: He wins vs Psycho ****** and Meep, two inferior players and both of them lack match-up experience. He loses to DSF, who is a better player than him.

That's all.

If he played now against an equally good Snake such as Afro Thundah and if we assume Afro knows the match-up, there's no realistic chances to win for Lucien

tl;dr Old videos prove nohing

Gamble beat Psycho ******..........not Lucien. Lucien might have lost to DSF, but the match was EVEN.

Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe if they played now, that oh I don't know..........that Fox players have also gotten better in that elapsed time. If they were going even back then against DSF(who many consider to be the BEST Snake), then there is no validity to your weak argument.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

My argument isn't weak at all. You just didn't understand it.

 

[-Mars-]

Your argument is "Snake ***** Fox", "Fox can't do anything to Snake", you continue to ignore the fact that in all of the matches between the top Snake players and the top Fox players..........it's been pretty close. At high level tournament play, Fox was keeping up with Snake............there is no reason to believe that he couldn't now.

 

[ThaRoy]

Lasering Snake forces him to crawl, thus giving him less options as well as slowing him down. So what do you do? SH and laser him. Then, what options do you have...?

1. Dair. If he pops up, shine to hold your evade and double jump away.
2. PWG. I am almost positive that you stay out of Snake's dtilt range but not 100%.
3. Continue laser till he moves towards you.
4. Force him to approach a little bit, then Fox illusion and repeat.
5. Dash-Sliding Shield and then punish.
6. SHShine and then attack after you throw him off.
7. SH Nair.
8. SH Fair.
10. Dash-Smash.

There are 10 options to do when Snake crawls to beat the lasers.

Now...where in this situation does Snake's position put him at an advantage...? What are Snake's options in this EXACT situation?

1. Crawl
2. Dtilt
3. Come up from crouch and thus get hit by lasers
4. Shield

...****it Gheb we do need to rethink this matchup...

 

[Emblem Lord]

FzeroX: You are unworthy of your sig.

And lol. I made a statement about Snake's frame data. I said nothing of anyone's ability to use it. And even so a statement like that is invalid. Why wouldn't a good Snake player know how to use his tools correctly? Saying something like this is pointless and has no bearing on the match-up.

And...lol. Why the **** would Snake even NEED to duck lasers.

This isn't Falco.

It's Fox. Just walk up to the mother****er and start spacing.

 

[cutter]

Emblem Lord gets it.

There is a REASON why Falco's laser > Fox's laser. Falco's laser has hitstun. Fox's doesn't have it.

Without the hitstun on Fox's laser, why should Snake really have to crawl all the way to get to Fox? He could crawl like halfway and get up or something and still be able to do whatever he wanted like space himself into Ftilt range.

Or Snake could just eat like ~11 damage and unleash hell on Fox. Snake could care less about taking some damage from lasers, ESPECIALLY when they don't disrupt him at all. The raw damage output that Snake has on his attacks blows Fox out of the water. Plus, Snake is extremely heavy and he can tank a ****load of hits from Fox. Conversely, Fox does not survive long against Snake at all.

 

[Zhamy]

My argument isn't weak at all. You just didn't understand it.

In other words, you can't communicate it properly, so it's not worth much.

And lol. I made a statement about Snake's frame data. I said nothing of anyone's ability to use it. And even so a statement like that is invalid. Why wouldn't a good Snake player know how to use his tools correctly? Saying something like this is pointless and has no bearing on the match-up.

Sure, maybe a Snake player does, but you obviously have no idea about either of the characters. So why are you mentioning it?

In other news, this thread is complete a*s.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So wait...You are assuming I don't play other characters?

Why would you make this assumption?

And even if I didn't play Snake or Fox ,which you could easily infer that I do play them since I just called you on your nonsense, what does that have to do with understanding what they are capable of?

You don't need to play a character to know what they can and cannot do in a match-up.

Or were you saying that I don't know Foxes frame data?

I saw it in a thread somewhere. But I'm fairly certain none of his attacks come out in frame 4 or less other then jab and shine. And of course none his attacks can beat Snake in range. Other then maybe F-smash, but that's risky.

 

[A6M Zero]

Again...this thread states that Snake ***** Fox...

I don't know what everyone else is arguing, but I know that myself and Marsulas at least are only saying that in practice, Fox doesn't get beaten nearly as badly as you guys are describing. Yeah, Snake beats Fox, but he doesn't come anywhere close to ****** him.

 

[NJzFinest]

The whole thing about Fox not being able to beat Snake's range... how many characters actually can? I mean, isn't Fox vs Marth in Melee an even matchup?

In the Falco vs Snake matchup, Snake outspaces Falco's moves. Yet, Falco obviously holds his own, namely since he has great ways to rack up damage and (depending on the situation) has effective KOing options. Isn't this basically what Cort mentioned for Fox?

Snake can perfectly space a tilt on Fox's shield, but Fox can still shield drop and punish him with something like a dash Up Smash since he's fast enough. Basically, if Snake hits Fox's shield with at least 105%, he's dead. Also, last time I checked, Snake is a slow character and Fox is pretty speedy. Now, combine that with the fact Fox doesn't even need to approach / can keep running away.... eh.

I think the main problem is that 99% of most Fox players are random people who play online.

Also, skimming the thread, I think some people mentioned Lucien? Kel, Champ, and Gamble are much more consistent, place well, and are actually good with Fox.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ouch ... comparing Melee spacing with Brawl spacing...ever heard of Wavedashing?

 

[Zhamy]

So wait...You are assuming I don't play other characters?

I never said that, so stop putting words in other people's mouths. It's also very easy to play characters and not know anything about them.

Why would you not know anything about logic?

It's time to face the facts and stop bringing up silly strawman arguments, like "Sliding Shield -> Drop -> Usmash".

And you obviously don't know logic either. It's not a strawman since I was responding directly to EL's point about Ftilt. If anything, EL's point is a strawman argument, if you want to consider it that way.

Ouch ... comparing Melee spacing with Brawl spacing...ever heard of Wavedashing?

That is also a strawman, considering you didn't respond to a single other point in NJz's post.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No. What he means he is that in Mele you have FAR more spacing options to close in it's much easier to bait and punish and you have much greater control over your character in Melee.

Namely because of dash dancing.

In Melee Marth had more range, but was slower then Fox. Fox had a bunch of tools at his disposal to get in. You could also dash and shield in the opening dash animation.

In Brawl Snake attacks faster AND has more range. You can't dash dance or wave dash or shield in the opening dash so if you approach you are far more committed to your actions since you have less options to reset spacing or keep yourself safe.

There ain't nothing strawman about that.

Zhamy. Calm down son. I sense hostility. No need for all that.

 

[Zhamy]

No. What he means he is that in Mele you have FAR more spacing options to close in it's much easier to bait and punish and you have much greater control over your character in Melee.

Namely because of dash dancing.

In Melee Marth had more range, but was slower then Fox. Fox had a bunch of tools at his disposal to get in. You could also dash and shield in the opening dash animation.

In Brawl Snake attacks faster AND has more range. You can't dash dance or wave dash or shield in the opening dash so if you approach you are far more committed to your actions since you have less options to reset spacing or keep yourself safe.

This is all true, but NJ also brought up points specifically pertaining to the Snake/Fox matchup and spacing, which weren't addressed at all.

Zhamy. Calm down son. I sense hostility. No need for all that.

Yeah, I am a bit tense. Nothing personal, but I'm pissed at the general quality of the boards, and then some.

 

[M@v]

look look we are beating the crap out of each other and getting mad for no reason. Lets look at this with cool minds guys. I apologize for flipping on you earlier gheb....but im just tired of all these people thinking we dont know our own character. And look at our matchup thread. G&W 30:70, Falco 40:60, Pika 1:9, Sheik is going to be 25:75. We are not biased aholes....heck the matchup guide right now has more bad matchups then good ones. Ive stated it before, both fox and snake has many options against the other one, making this a close ,fun-as-hell match to play. I have been talking this over with creditable people. This matchup is right about even, absolute WORST 45:55 snake. This match comes down to who can play their character better....simple as that.

 

[-Mars-]

So wait...You are assuming I don't play other characters?

Why would you make this assumption?

And even if I didn't play Snake or Fox ,which you could easily infer that I do play them since I just called you on your nonsense, what does that have to do with understanding what they are capable of?

You don't need to play a character to know what they can and cannot do in a match-up.

Or were you saying that I don't know Foxes frame data?

I saw it in a thread somewhere. But I'm fairly certain none of his attacks come out in frame 4 or less other then jab and shine. And of course none his attacks can beat Snake in range. Other then maybe F-smash, but that's risky.

Fairly certain? You don't know Foxs' frame data.......utilt comes out on frame 3. You always come on here and say things without first doing research.

Most of your arguments are based around "Fox has no tools, he has no options for this and this" without giving any valid reasons.

Also NJZ brought up good points and both you and Gheb completely ignored them because you know that they're correct.

 

[Onomanic]

Was it remotely necessary to make a thread on this? Why not make a post on the match up thread?

 

[-Mars-]

Was it remotely necessary to make a thread on this? Why not make a post on the match up thread?

We get this all the time........they like to come on here and down Fox, it gets rather comical after a while. There's really no point to it either.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I knew about u-tilt actually. Just forgot to mention it.

I should have clarified. Fox has no tools that are fast as Snakes AND can match him in range.

I also sense hostility from you. You make me laugh.

And...woooooooow. I always come in here without doing research?

lol. No, dude. Cut the ****. You caught me with my pants down once.

Big deal.

Doesn't change the fact that I have continuously laid down the **** in numerous debates in this character board.

 

[-Mars-]

I knew about u-tilt actually. Just forgot to mention it.

I should have clarified. Fox has no tools that are fast as Snakes AND can match him in range.

I also sense hostility from you. You make me laugh.

And...woooooooow. I always come in here without doing research?

lol. No, dude. Cut the ****. You caught me with my pants down once.

Big deal.

Doesn't change the fact that I have continuously laid down the **** in numerous debates in this character board.

Admitting to making a mistake? Wow I had no idea you were capable of that. Glad I could make you laugh but who is being hostile? I said it was comical, nothing I said gave any sense of hostility.

Once again not responding to NJZ's post.....just completely ignoring it. It seems that you only respond to posters who you know you can out-debate. When it comes to the more knowledgeable tournament players and posters..........you have no response.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Actually NJZs post didn't include any arguments / informations at all.

The first part is simply a wrong comparision. Melee spacing and Brawl spacing are two fundamentally different things.

The 2nd part is a meaningless quote by cort and mostly deals with Falco vs Snake

The 3rd part contains information, that's either half right or wrong: 1.) Snake =/= slow 2.) Fox =/= faster than Snake

Fox loses either way: If he doesn't lose speed wise, he does range wise

 

[Emblem Lord]

There was nothing to argue in NJz's post. I addressed the part that needing aggressing. The comparision between the options that both games give you in regards to movement and spacing control.

In the rest of his post he stated some things. Some things are correct. Some aren't.

Nothing else to really address IMO.

Oh...Gheb already covered it.

LOL@NJZ' being more knowledgeable.

Sorry that's just hilarious since he and I are cool we each other IRL and he goes to less tournies then me and that's saying alot cuz I don't travel AT ALL.

 

[A6M Zero]

This isn't even about the matchup anymore, let's drop it and see how the tournaments develop...

 

[-Mars-]

Didn't say he was more knowledgeable than you persay, just that he knows more than the average poster here and anything he says on the matchup should be taken into consideration.

 

[napZzz]

lol my snake is pretty average and I beat undefined and almost beat trumps fox

 

[NJzFinest]

Ouch ... comparing Melee spacing with Brawl spacing...ever heard of Wavedashing?

Walking is the new wavedashing.

The 2nd part is a meaningless quote by cort

Cort is a pro player lol, I think what he says should be taken into consideration. Unless... your word is worth more?
Who are you anyways?

and mostly deals with Falco vs Snake

And compared it to Fox vs Snake >_<

The 3rd part contains information, that's either half right or wrong: 1.) Snake =/= slow 2.) Fox =/= faster than Snake

I meant it more as how agile Fox is compared to Snake, hence the sentence following that.

"Because I say so" logic = dumb


Also, <3 EL

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Walking is the new wavedashing.

How witty. Walking for spacing...?

Cort is a pro player lol, I think what he says should be taken into consideration. Unless... your word is worth more?
Who are you anyways?

A pro player isn't always right. He said that ages ago.

And compared it to Fox vs Snake >_<

Which doesn't mean anything for countless reasons:

- Falco is a much better character than Fox
- Falco can actually camp
- Falco can actually edgeguard
- Falcos laser is actually useful
- Falco can actually deal dmg (lol CG)

I meant it more as how agile Fox is compared to Snake, hence the sentence following that.

...O...K?

"Because I say so" logic = dumb

Yeah, I avoid it usually

Also, <3 EL

Oh yes, we all do