Banning Dedede's infinite? FIRST POST UPDATED WITH VIDEO.

[Tien2500]

Dedede's infinites break the game for certain characters. Lol. Its kind of a stupid argument because pretty much anyone can see how blatantly unfair this is. Its kind of funny. Its like we've gotten so far into the competitive spirit and integrity of the game BS that we've lost the basic ability to identify something that is clearly unfair. As Steeler said the metagame is better and richer without it. What is the value in keeping DDD's infinites exactly?

 

[Nintendevil]

then counterpick.

 

[cutter]

Dedede's infinites break the game for certain characters. Lol. Its kind of a stupid argument because pretty much anyone can see how blatantly unfair this is. Its kind of funny. Its like we've gotten so far into the competitive spirit and integrity of the game BS that we've lost the basic ability to identify something that is clearly unfair. As Steeler said the metagame is better and richer without it. What is the value in keeping DDD's infinites exactly?

Did we ever ban Sheik's chaingrab in Melee? She could 0-death some characters with it, and it made characters like Bowser and Link virtually unviable for tournament play.

 

[Nintendevil]

Did we ever ban Sheik's chaingrab in Melee? She could 0-death some characters with it, and it made characters like Bowser and Link virtually unviable for tournament play.

Melee =/= brawl

Still.... just counterpick.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Did we ever ban Sheik's chaingrab in Melee? She could 0-death some characters with it, and it made characters like Bowser and Link virtually unviable for tournament play.

I cried sooo much that day.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I cried sooo much that day.

Me too.

PIKACHUUUUUU!!!!!!

 

[Umby]

Melee =/= brawl

Still.... just counterpick.

I hate this argument. Assuming people applied the counterpick argument, a set would look like:

1st Match: Neutral Stage. Dedede wins.
2nd Match: Loser counterpicks.

At this point, Dedede possibly loses or the Dedede user switches characters, in which case he possibly wins, ending the set. In the case of the former, it'd probably look like:

3rd Match: Dedede counterpicks. Dedede wins.

Counterpicking is not the end all solution. Furthermore, as I believe it's been said, just because you counterpick doesn't mean you can stop the standing infinite. There are ways for getting out of it, however, if the opponent knows how.

 

[Kitamerby]

I hate this argument. Assuming people applied the counterpick argument, a set would look like:

1st Match: Neutral Stage. Dedede wins.
2nd Match: Loser counterpicks.

At this point, Dedede possibly loses or the Dedede user switches characters, in which case he possibly wins, ending the set. In the case of the former, it'd probably look like:

3rd Match: Dedede counterpicks. Dedede wins.

Counterpicking is not the end all solution. Furthermore, as I believe it's been said, just because you counterpick doesn't mean you can stop the standing infinite. There are ways for getting out of it, however, if the opponent knows how.

First match is usually a blind pick. It's a risk you must take when you take up certain characters.

 

[Gindler]

Don't forget marth's infinites =D

And for the don't get grabbed thing. That's easy with like the ICs with their pathetic grab range, but D3's grab range is pretty much equal to that of yoshi's (a tether mind you) so I guess if you're playing Ike you can outrange him all the time

 

[cutter]

Don't forget marth's infinites =D

And for the don't get grabbed thing. That's easy with like the ICs with their pathetic grab range, but D3's grab range is pretty much equal to that of yoshi's (a tether mind you) so I guess if you're playing Ike you can outrange him all the time

Marth's "infinites" have been deconfirmed because now Ness/Lucas can DI just outside of Marth's grab reach to prevent the regrab, but the Earthbound kids still get screwed over by Marth's setups after a grab release due to their very bad ground break.

 

[pure_awesome]

Fighting games have infinites.

If the Street Fighter community allows them, there's no reason we shouldn't.

 

[ph00tbag]

I second DK, and all I can say is, either don't pick DK against DDD or don't get grabbed. If you know you're going to get grabbed, and you still pick DK, you deserve to lose. If you win that match-up, then you deserve bragging rights.

Wobbling is still a controversial topic. Many TOs don't think it should be banned, many do. It's not something you can argue either way on based on popular opinion alone.

 

[ADHD]

This is why you have a secondary. Use the secondary against dededes ALWAYS if your main gets infinite'd. No biggy, although luigi would combo d3's *** if it wasn't for that infinite but that's brawl for you.

 

[zwab]

I'll tell ya wats stupidly broken the power button.

I don't even see the point in banning MK TBH many people fear the spammy tornado but the amount of times I have dodged/grabbed him outa it make me think this way

Let me break it down

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T USE IT OR PLAY COMPETETIVE EVER AGAIN IF YOU DON'T LIKE PEOPLE USING IT ON YOU.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i say ban it.


lemme clerify

i challenge ANYONE
to fight my ddd, and not get grabbed three times.

thats all.

u might say u need to get 3 of them to 50 before u can actually do the infinite, but all that means really, is get three backthrows first.


so i'll say this
i challange anyone (this is in luigi's' perspective, the hardest to infinite consistantly) to play my ddd, and not get grabbed a total of 4 times per stock. by the 4th grab, count that as an infinite to death.

if ur saying its avoidable, than ur saying my challange is acceptable. the idea isn't to run away for the entire match, the idea is for u to magically come up with a way to BEAT/KILL ddd without getting grabbed 4 times a stock.

im allowing anyone to do this with any character. Meanwhile, the real characters that get owned by this are even easier to grab than most of the ones that will be challenging this.

p.s. im for the ban

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

I thought you could only chain grab 5 times in tournaments anyways? What's the point of this argument if that's true.

 

[J4pu]

Let's ban Falco's CG > Dair > edge-hog auto-kill on Falco and Wolf while we're at it...
seriously though, let's not
MK makes playing certain characters just as much of a liability as DDD's infinite

just scream in their ear right when they are about to regrab

 

[Anther]

Me too.

PIKACHUUUUUU!!!!!!

Pika could avoid it and DI'd out of it at like 60% as one of the lucky few. Pika's too good x;.


DDD's standing infinite is stupid to leave in competitive play. ICs are capable of being separated and it becomes a huge weakness to their game when they're separate and nana's being taken advantage of.

Having to perfectly avoid grabs destroys a lot of the mix-ups and advantages you can gain in a match against your opponent. I don't see why anyone even argues ICs CG as opposed to DDD's when this comes up. The walking CG is advantage enough in those matchups, completely removing a character's viability because they're vulnerable to the easiest grab in the game to land is ridiculous and hurts the game way more than anything metaknight's tornado does =p.

Meta's not removing a bunch of lower tiered but very tourney viable characters by the virtue of having the easiest matchup in the world against them no matter what. THAT hurts the game.

 

[Vulcan55]

And people said this community wouldn't become ban-happy.

 

[Yonder]

Yes, i'm for one on this stupid infinite, a really bad DDD player could know nothing, except ONLY the infinite, and a really good Luigi/Mario player for example like...Boss8 for example, might accidnelty trip, and they get a grab, they win. Ban the infinite!

 

[snowaxe]

And people said this community wouldn't become ban-happy.

Win. I dont think we should ban this at all, other fighting games allow infinites, why cant this one?

 

[CO18]

Dedede's infinite DOES indeed need to banned, some places have already done it.

 

[Nintendevil]

wow 0.o Even Co thinks it should be banned... I would have just said cp but whatever you say :D

 

[Harbinger631]

If there's anything that needs to be banned, it's MK's IDC and this. The real question is, how do we ban this? Just say that D3 needs to move after every grab? That really doesn't work because Pikachu has a standing 80% grab on Fox. So is it then that D3 is only allowed to 80% someone at one time? Why 80% Why not 90% Or 100%? Does anyone have a solution for this?

 

[Deleted member]

Fighting games have infinites.

If the Street Fighter community allows them, there's no reason we shouldn't.

horrible logic.

I agree with Anther and Seibrik, and I've posted something similar to this in the SBR (although not nearly as pretty as this topic).

 

[pure_awesome]

Dedede's infinite DOES indeed need to banned, some places have already done it.

Where?





If we banned this, we would have the ban the Ice Climbers'. Like, it wouldn't even be an argument. And that's like... the only good thing the ICs have going for them, honestly.

Just don't pick the destructo-character. If you're playing Street Fighter 2, and your opponent picks Ryu, don't pick Zangief. Welcome to fighting games.

horrible logic.

Well if you say it, it MUST be true.

Horrible logic becaaaaausssee...? Don't think your red name gives you immunity to common sense.

It's a fighting game. We can pick hairs all we want, it's still a fighting game. Tons of other fighting games have infinites and maintain a healthy, balanced community. We're... what, smarter than them? Better than them? More foresight? Seriously, I'm asking. Oro's infinite is balls in SF3, and he's still middle tier, last time I checked.

 

[Yonder]

wow 0.o Even Co thinks it should be banned... I would have just said cp but whatever you say :D

I think it's unfair for a dedicated main of the infinited people to have to switch just cause of an infinite, even if they are clearly better than the DDD player.

 

[CO18]

I think it's unfair for a dedicated main of the infinited people to have to switch just cause of an infinite, even if they are clearly better than the DDD player.

Yes! and who those people resort to? Most of the time (METAKNIGHT) cuz hes easy to use and they figure screw it and since mk can nado ***** ddd.

 

[Nintendevil]

Yes! and who those people resort to? Most of the time (METAKNIGHT) cuz hes easy to use and they figure screw it and since mk can nado ***** ddd.

aha. I see, you're really helping your self

 

[Hive]

If this gets banned, there will be cake, made by the Peach mains, given to the Mario and Luigi mains , and the Samus mains would be invited. Then we'd make an giant banana cake for the DK mains who has it worse than any of us combined.

This is the kwlest idea ever! Heromystic ^^ I'm taking you up on this :D

ps stop comparing street fighter to smash bros. whoever keeps doing that... <.<
Infinites mean something totally different in these kind of fighting games... and are often viable by everyone.... not to mention there is a larger emphasis on offense in these games... and smaller hps meaning infinites don't outweigh regular combos by nearly as much...

<sigh> but I regress... cake.
cake is a good idea.

 

[CO18]

aha. I see, you're really helping your self

lol XD. True that.

 

[Big Red]

You wanna make them game more FAIR for Mario, Luigi, DK, Samus, and Bowser. Well what about Ganondorf? He has similairly bad matchups. How is it FAIR to fix those 5s bad matchups, where G-dorf still has to deal with these 80-20/90-10 matches?

 

[XienZo]

Well, lets see, you can't compare IC's "Don't get grabbed" with DDD's because ICs can't always grab with their stubby little hands, and with Nana getting lost half the time. DDD never gets lost and his flipper is lke 10 times the size of the ICs.

Honestly, I don't believe there are two many legitimate arguments for banning it.

On the other hand, I doubt we'd lose anything at all FROM banning it.

So basically, my point is "Whatever makes you guys happy", since by itself, it doesn't hurt or aid the metagame much.

 

[Drecker]

Holy ****, five pages is eight hours.

 

[Deleted member]

It's a fighting game. We can pick hairs all we want, it's still a fighting game. Tons of other fighting games have infinites and maintain a healthy, balanced community. We're... what, smarter than them? Better than them? More foresight? Seriously, I'm asking. Oro's infinite is balls in SF3, and he's still middle tier, last time I checked.

So what, you want to assign a generalization to fighting games? Smash != other fighters. Our rules don't apply to them and vice versa. Even if smash is a fighter (I don't think it fits the genre anyway), standard fighters don't have to account for free range movement, DI, edge guarding.

Ultimately, each community should determine its own logical stipulations for competitive play. By adopting those of another community, not only do we not draft rules to meet our own needs, we also adopt a mediocre blanket statement not to fix this error later on because our set precedent is to follow the adopted rules and not our own.

"This infinite is really gay and ruins the game."
"It didn't ruin this semi-comparable game."
"Well **** it let's go play that game then."

 

[Drecker]

It's a fighting game. We can pick hairs all we want, it's still a fighting game. Tons of other fighting games have infinites and maintain a healthy, balanced community. We're... what, smarter than them? Better than them? More foresight? Seriously, I'm asking. Oro's infinite is balls in SF3, and he's still middle tier, last time I checked.

Let's look at true infinites in the two most played TRADITIONAL fighters (Something Smash is not).

1. MvC2 - The majority of true infinites take quite a bit of skill to pull off (Magneto, Cyclops), not counting crap from Tronne and Iron Man, etc. I learned Dedede's infinite in five minutes, it took me over a year to perfect Mag's infinite and I still screw up on it.

2. Third Strike Oro Infinite - Hardly a true infinite. First of all, you need 2 1/4 bars for this to even be possible. Second, you need a perfect sense of timing to land Yagyou Dama perfectly. Oro's "infinite" has no bearing on his place on the tier list.

Other games are not Smash, and there's no point in trying to make a parallel.

Before people try to call me "scrubby" or "noob", I can guarantee I will beat you at MvC2 or 3S .

 

[pure_awesome]

I don't have to assign a generalization to fighting games, they're already generalized. As fighting games. Doi. If you don't think Smash fits the genre... I mean, I don't know what to tell you. What is it then? Platformer? Side-scrolling beat-em-up? Every game fits a genre, no matter how loosely. This is a fighting game, through and through. It's got DI and edgeguarding and all these other facets, yes. It's why we all love this game so much more than others. It's more complex. But then again, that doesn't have anything to do with infinites.

I completely agree that we should go against the norm and defy other, semi-comparable communities if something ruined the game. But if something actually ruined the game, we would have noticed it already *cough*MK*cough*. And it doesn't. It just forces a counterpick. And you know what? Counterpicking is a part of the game, like it or not. You can say that a DK main shouldn't be forced to switch off DK, but there's no reason to say he can't. Counterpicking is an established, accepted part of the game, and you should be doing anything you can do to put your opponent out of his comfort zone.

It doesn't ruin the game. At all. It just forces people to start playing the match earlier than they're used to: On the character select screen. Which is fine. So when you scope out and take a grand ol' look at things, he's just another character, in another fighting game, with another infinite.

 

[Hive]

@pure_awesome- Why cuz there the same genre of game they MUST be similar? Like everyone has said infinites in other games have nothing to do with infinites in brawl for several reasons...
Their difficulty. Their smaller impact on matchup charts. The offense focus of most other fighting games. That infinites in games with smaller hps don't outweigh combos by nearly as much. They don't make matchups as nearly one-sided or outweighed. Not to mention in a lot of these games infinites are exploitable by most of the cast.
and anyways brawl shouldn't have to rely on other games' rulesets to make their own...
Analogy arguments are always a little odd... because they usually avoid using any support except relying on other people's... basically you're saying that brawl shouldn't ban infinites because other fighters don't. But why don't these other fighters ban it? those would at least be valid arguments but simply saying they do by comparison is not.
Also, ppl shouldn't have to counterpick other people to have a decent chance at winning.... especially when it won't impact the metagame barely at all if it was banned...
this is both unfair to any of the characters involved who wouldn't have a chance otherwise...
and also to DDD who will most likely be put at a disadvantage from the counterpick...

anyways, i've said enough about chaingrabs in the other thread so I'll leave it at that for now ^^

 

[Irsic]

I don't have to assign a generalization to fighting games, they're already generalized. As fighting games. Doi. If you don't think Smash fits the genre... I mean, I don't know what to tell you. What is it then? Platformer? Side-scrolling beat-em-up? Every game fits a genre, no matter how loosely. This is a fighting game, through and through. It's got DI and edgeguarding and all these other facets, yes.

This is basically like saying every human being fits a stereotype.

Individuality exists, and I've never played a "fighting" game like Smash before.

 

[HeroMystic]

<sigh> but I regress... cake.
cake is a good idea.

You know what's a better idea than cake?

Strawberry cake... or perhaps awesome cheesecake, although that's actually pie, but whatever.

I don't have to assign a generalization to fighting games, they're already generalized. As fighting games. Doi. If you don't think Smash fits the genre... I mean, I don't know what to tell you. What is it then? Platformer? Side-scrolling beat-em-up? Every game fits a genre, no matter how loosely. This is a fighting game, through and through.

I think people are forgetting that Brawl is a competitive game just because we said so. Brawl was deliberately designed to go against competitive fighting. So I don't see the point in comparing, good, successful fighting games, to Brawl.