Banning Dedede's infinite? FIRST POST UPDATED WITH VIDEO.

[Woozle]

Is that for the infinite only, or Dedede's CG in general?

If it's infinite only, do they allow, say, full stage CG into four grab standing infinite?

Just wondering how things are run.

I can't speak for what others do, but at "my" tournaments, CGs could cross the stage but had to be ended at the lip.

 

[bobson]

I understand that much.

But since it's so difficult to pull off, wouldn't banning all infinites keep DDD-like infinites from ruining the metagame and not really hinder characters such as the ICs?

Or is their playability truly hinging on this situational grab?

I guess I still don't understand why banning one instead of all is superior.

You can't really acceptably regulate the Climbers' chaingrabs due to their large variety and versatility. Is a chaingrab to the end of the stage into a Nana fair spike banned? What about regrabbing three times into an attack and then grabbing again afterward? It's a huge part of their playstyle and any kind of ban would have to be very specific and could probably be subverted somehow, whereas the distinction with King Dedede is very obvious and easy to regulate.

 

[Woozle]

You can't really acceptably regulate the Climbers' chaingrabs due to their large variety and versatility. Is a chaingrab to the end of the stage into a Nana fair spike banned? What about regrabbing three times into an attack and then grabbing again afterward? It's a huge part of their playstyle and any kind of ban would have to be very specific and could probably be subverted somehow, whereas the distinction with King Dedede is very obvious and easy to regulate.

I'm not offering an attempt to regulate chain-grabs.

I'm offering banning infinites (that is, something along these lines) would not hurt Ics too much.

or would it?

 

[themrskills]

We can't keep trying to ban every single thing in Brawl that we think is broken. Pretty soon we'll be down to only being allowed to do jabs with Captain Falcon. Yes, lots of stuff in Brawl seems pretty ridiculous. About the only realistic thing to do, though, is to play melee if you can't avoid being grabbed in Brawl. And really, who would pick a character that can be infinited by the opponent? Gosh, develop some secondaries people. As for the IC chaingrab, that would just takes ridiculous timing/skill, come on.

 

[Hive]

i really don't think banning the infinite is going to open the doors to banning everything except captain falcon's jabs <.<
There is a pretty obvious distinction between DDDs infinite and regular moves... @.@
and no one's going to use "well DDDs infinite got banned so we should ban this too" on regular moves/combos.... they'd probably get flamed....

 

[SuSa]

Don't get grabbed.

The Ice Climbers have a -horrid- grab range.... and their infinites do take some skill, just as the D3 standing infinite.

Cheap- Yes
Annoying- Yes
Hard to do without ****ing up- Yes (I've tried plenty of times to do this to a weegee. 5 hours practice, I managed to chain him into 4 grabs max....
Bannable?- No

 

[Woozle]

We can't keep trying to ban every single thing in Brawl that we think is broken. Pretty soon we'll be down to only being allowed to do jabs with Captain Falcon. Yes, lots of stuff in Brawl seems pretty ridiculous. About the only realistic thing to do, though, is to play melee if you can't avoid being grabbed in Brawl. And really, who would pick a character that can be infinited by the opponent? Gosh, develop some secondaries people. As for the IC chaingrab, that would just takes ridiculous timing/skill, come on.

I guess, then, you're saying that if a player can beat his controller, no matter how difficult, it deserves to be rewarded with the stock-loss of his or her opponent?

 

[bobson]

I'm not offering an attempt to regulate chain-grabs.

I'm offering banning infinites (that is, something along these lines) would not hurt Ics too much.

or would it?

That's the thing, though: the difference between a chaingrab and an infinite with the Climbers isn't immediately obvious as it is with most others.

 

[MaxfireXSA]

That was the funniest chain throwing technique video that I ever heard, because if they have problems with the players who play as King Dedede, then they have to tilt the joystick(or press the right arrow) to the right to avoid King Dedede's chain throwing, if that doesn't work, try to air jump to avoid King Dedede's chain throws.

 

[themrskills]

Basically, yes. If someone has spent untold amounts of time perfecting something that requires immense amounts of skill to be able to do effectively, they do deserve a stock-loss on their opponent. Their opponent knows that a grab will result in a stock loss. The solution? Maintain solid spacing throughout the battle. It will be a tedious battle where you will have to be focused on avoiding the grab, but it can be done and has been done. BTW, if you doubt the difficulty of the IC deathgrab, try learning it.

 

[Drecker]

We can't keep trying to ban every single thing in Brawl that we think is broken. Pretty soon we'll be down to only being allowed to do jabs with Captain Falcon. Yes, lots of stuff in Brawl seems pretty ridiculous. About the only realistic thing to do, though, is to play melee if you can't avoid being grabbed in Brawl. And really, who would pick a character that can be infinited by the opponent? Gosh, develop some secondaries people. As for the IC chaingrab, that would just takes ridiculous timing/skill, come on.

Take up Seibrik or CO18's challenge, I will personally pay you $100 if you can avoid all grabs and win a match.

Don't get grabbed.

The Ice Climbers have a -horrid- grab range.... and their infinites do take some skill, just as the D3 standing infinite.

Cheap- Yes
Annoying- Yes
Hard to do without ****ing up- Yes (I've tried plenty of times to do this to a weegee. 5 hours practice, I managed to chain him into 4 grabs max....
Bannable?- No

If you can't standing infinite people after that much practice, laaawwwwwllllll. It takes no skill at all.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

wow this is still going on? it must be that time of month.

 

[Woozle]

That's the thing, though: the difference between a chaingrab and an infinite with the Climbers isn't immediately obvious as it is with most others.

Well now, that I can see as being a problem!

Maybe people would be more willing to look at banning "infinites" if there were a more stable definition that could apply across the board? So even to "infinites" that may be undiscovered and to any character? So not ban DDD's dthrow infinite but ban "all moves such that x occurs"

I realize how hard this would be, and I don't mean to suggest that it would be easy. But maybe it would make people feel better about it?

.-.

 

[MaxfireXSA]

Basically, yes. If someone has spent untold amounts of time perfecting something that requires immense amounts of skill to be able to do effectively, they do deserve a stock-loss on their opponent. Their opponent knows that a grab will result in a stock loss. The solution? Maintain solid spacing throughout the battle. It will be a tedious battle where you will have to be focused on avoiding the grab, but it can be done and has been done. BTW, if you doubt the difficulty of the IC deathgrab, try learning it.

Then if they do a chain throw with King Dedede in online repetitious and tedious way against the players in online, then how would they get their account suspended or banned from Super Smash Bros Online?

 

[XienZo]

Take up Seibrik or CO18's challenge, I will personally pay you $100 if you can avoid all grabs and win a match.

Hmmm, I can see it with Olimar... throw Pikmin and out camp DDD, then, having like the only better grab then him, and with DDD being fat, you'll get a few combos...

It depends, is it 4 grabs for stock or 4 grabs for match?

 

[themrskills]

wow this is still going on? it must be that time of month.

Ban time? or that other kind of "time"?

 

[Woozle]

@themrskills

I don't doubt it. I simply don't agree with the idea that learning to break a game deserves to be rewarded. And I hold the opinion that infinites break the game.

I don't think I'm right. Just that I value other attributes in a player and/or strategy.

 

[Hive]

@XienZo
i think it was four grabs a stock... ^^
XienZo i think you need to be one of the 5 though... i'm not sure ^^
here's the info though

i say ban it.


lemme clerify

i challenge ANYONE
to fight my ddd, and not get grabbed three times.

thats all.

u might say u need to get 3 of them to 50 before u can actually do the infinite, but all that means really, is get three backthrows first.


so i'll say this
i challange anyone (this is in luigi's' perspective, the hardest to infinite consistantly) to play my ddd, and not get grabbed a total of 4 times per stock. by the 4th grab, count that as an infinite to death.

if ur saying its avoidable, than ur saying my challange is acceptable. the idea isn't to run away for the entire match, the idea is for u to magically come up with a way to BEAT/KILL ddd without getting grabbed 4 times a stock.

im allowing anyone to do this with any character. Meanwhile, the real characters that get owned by this are even easier to grab than most of the ones that will be challenging this.

p.s. im for the ban

If you believe you can beat an infiniting DDD then accept seibrik's challenge

I challenge anyone to do the same to me.

Take up Seibrik or CO18's challenge, I will personally pay you $100 if you can avoid all grabs and win a match..

 

[themrskills]

Then if they do a chain throw with King Dedede in online repetitious and tedious way against the players in online, then how would they get their account suspended or banned from Super Smash Bros Online?

I've never seen/heard of a person being banned from Super Smash Bros Online. I don't think it can be done very easily. This isn't XBox, you know.

 

[Judge Judy]

Monk's ledge control/camping is honestly the best way to fight DDD. DDD's infinite makes him near impossible to safely approach but you can still camp him and force him to approach. DDD's waddles block fireballs but FLUDD goes through them, yah it's boring that it becomes a camping match but you can badly punish him if you can force him to approach. DDD isn't downright awful against ledge camping but he isn't very good against it either, you can get some nasty dmg on him off stage and he isn't too hard to gimp either. DDD is Mario's hardest match-up but it isn't impossible. I'd much rather CP to fight DDD head on than kill him through endless camping, but if you want to stick with Mario it's not impossible if you're very, very, very patient.

This Mario's solution to DDD's infinite, not so sure about how well other characters fare though. And yes, I just quoted myself.

 

[themrskills]

@ Voodoo:

Is it online or at a tourney?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Ban time? or that other kind of "time"?

just that time of month when something old, like this, comes back and is talked about again even if it seemed to have closure already. i've seen like 3 revived threads already from like months ago.

i wonder how long this will go on.......

 

[bobson]

This Mario's solution to DDD's infinite, not so sure about how well other characters fare though. And yes, I just quoted myself.

What if Dedede plays smart and doesn't approach?

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Don't get grabbed.

The Ice Climbers have a -horrid- grab range.... and their infinites do take some skill, just as the D3 standing infinite.

Cheap- Yes
Annoying- Yes
Hard to do without ****ing up- Yes (I've tried plenty of times to do this to a weegee. 5 hours practice, I managed to chain him into 4 grabs max....
Bannable?- No

im gona teach you and everyone out there a lesson about the ddd infinite RIGHT NOW.



Go to controls

Change c-stick to Grab (yea its possible)

u dont spam the cstick, as it wont do another grab till its back in neutral position. but im guessing ur main problem wen trying to infinite is getting the timing down without having the sheild come up.


well for some reason, wen using the c-stick to grab, the shield NEVER comes up, no matter what. so it actually ALLOWS the person to learn this SIMPLE *** timing. If you change the c-stick to grab, and CAN'T infinite a character within 5 MINUTES of trying, u are either half way ********, or dont have any hands.

a few things you need to know about mario/samus/luigi.

after 5 d-throws they go too far to grab, as ur throw has gotten diminished and they're not large enough.
in order to fix this, they need to be at 50% to be able to get one grab attack out to get the next regrab as the grab attack refreshes ur d-throw a little.

i think its something like 1 grab attack=2 more throws, and 2 grab attacks=three more throws.

for mario and samus this can be as easy as getting a grab at 20, then chaingrabbing till the middle or so till 50, grab attack, and commense win.

for luigi, this means three back throws, and perhaps a random attack or two in between. get next sheild grab (p.s. almost all of luigi's moves are EASY to sheild grab) and commence win.


As far as my challange goes it still stands. I would actually perfer NOT online. i hate online and i'll grab 100000X better in person. (i base 99% of my strategy on grabbing, the other 1% is uptilt)

sounds stupid but its been working.

in any case, im going to be at c3, with a recorder (hopefully), so if any of you that wana challange me are gona be there, go to it. im not gonna be traveling out of state very much after that, so this is ur last opportunity to do this without having to come to a gigabits in orlando fl to play either me or co18.

any one of these challanges, any of my mm's, and hopefully most of my matches i will record.

people wont be doing my challange, but i'll let each of u count the amount of grabs i get per stock, not the 2nd grab in a chaingrab, that doesnt count. i mean each initial individual grab.

Have Fun Counting.



Let's ban this **** already, K?

 

[Hive]

This Mario's solution to DDD's infinite, not so sure about how well other characters fare though. And yes, I just quoted myself.

good i suppose... ^^ but i think ledge camping/stalling is possibly getting banned in the near future... there's something on it in tourney discussion... and DDD isn't completely bad at edgeguarding either... if he backs off you would have to approach since it could be considered stalling....

 

[XienZo]

@XienZo
i think it was four grabs a stock... ^^
XienZo i think you need to be one of the 5 though... i'm not sure ^^
here's the info though

im allowing anyone to do this with any character

Olimar is a go.
I have no transportation, so I am not.
Time to run to the Olimar boards.

 

[Luigi player]

I think it should be banned... it really is not fair. But how would you limit it? Dedede can just walk a few steps and grab DK again, would that count as the infinite too? So Dedede is not allowed to chaingrab at all against those characters?

Dedede is the most broken character by far imo. Only because of his stupid dthrow... Dedede is really unfair.

I don't know what people have against MK, he's nothing compared to Dedede... >_>

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

:
1. Don´t get grabbed (works perfect against IC's so no reason it wont work against Dedede)

No, you see the IC's grab range is terrible, and D3's is freakin huge, so yeah...

 

[cutter]

If Wobbling was never officially banned by the SBR, I don't see why D3's infinite (which does not affect all characters) would be banned.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

I think it should be banned... it really is not fair. But how would you limit it? Dedede can just walk a few steps and grab DK again, would that count as the infinite too? So Dedede is not allowed to chaingrab at all against those characters?

Dedede is the most broken character by far imo. Only because of his stupid dthrow... Dedede is really unfair.

I don't know what people have against MK, he's nothing compared to Dedede... >_>

ddd is broken for alot of other reasons

i've been MM people round here recently without d-throw and i do about the same if not better.

 

[Judge Judy]

What if Dedede plays smart and doesn't approach?

Mario can still pressure him toward the ledge with the FLUDD and pressure his shield with fireballs.

good i suppose... ^^ but i think ledge camping/stalling is possibly getting banned in the near future... there's something on it in tourney discussion... and DDD isn't completely bad at edgeguarding either... if he backs off you would have to approach since it could be considered stalling....

Yah, but you can still camp with the FLUDD and fireballs on stage to lure him towards the ledge to keep it from being considered stalling. Ledge camping will only be banned if it's considered stalling.

 

[bobson]

Mario can still pressure him toward the ledge with the FLUDD and pressure his shield with fireballs.

Everything Dedede has with the exception of his nair and, obscurely, his smashes will eat through fireballs. And the FLUDD... your solution to someone who won't approach is to push them farther away?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Pika could avoid it and DI'd out of it at like 60% as one of the lucky few. Pika's too good x;.

Still hurt. T_T

 

[Big Red]

Or instead of, don't get grabbed, don't pick DK, Bowser, Mario, Luigi, or Samus. Don't tell me that this is stupid because "I like DK so I want to use him anyways." Well I like Ganondorf, but I can't use him because he gets ***** by the likes of MK and GnW (these matchups are like 80-20 or 90-10 like the D3 matchups) does this mean that GnW should be allowed to use his aerials so that I could have a better chance with Ganon, no.

Don't compare this to wobbling at all. First of all, wobbling wasn't even banned everywhere (And as stated it wasn't banned by the SBR), and that worked on all characters. Plus these are different games, you can't take standards from melee and apply them to Brawl.

 

[Judge Judy]

Everything Dedede has with the exception of his nair and, obscurely, his smashes will eat through fireballs. And the FLUDD... your solution to someone who won't approach is to push them farther away?

Yes, off-stage is the best place for Mario to fight DDD. Also, DDD can only do so much against fireballs besides powsershielding them and trying to block them with waddle dees while he's not approaching. However, this is still a 7/3 match-up in DDD's favor since Mario can't safely approach DDD because of his infinite.

 

[salaboB]

And people said this community wouldn't become ban-happy.

No, people said the community wouldn't go successfully ban-happy on other characters than MK.

Maybe a single person has naively said the community won't go ban-happy, but then the community as a whole has always been relatively loud about bans.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Don't get hit, hurr hurr hurr hurr


Smash is not Street Fighter. Smash is different on a very fundamental level from other fighting games. This is tantamount to saying "Competitive poker players rely on luck for the drawing of cards, so therefore we should allow items in tournament play."

Guilty Gear is not like MvC2.
MvC2 is not like melty Blood.
Melty Blood is not like tekken.

Shall I go on?
the same rules that regard an infinite apply because of the result. You DIE.
stop going baw baw baw its not the same since we have several games that are not the same.
you can't play GG like you wuld tekken, MvC2, etc etc.


The argument is old, tiring and stupid.

 

[Drecker]

The stupidity of most of the last few posts astounds me.

 

[dumba989]

This was an accidental post, lol

 

[bobson]

Yes, off-stage is the best place for Mario to fight DDD. Also, DDD can only do so much against fireballs besides powsershielding them and trying to block them with waddle dees while he's not approaching.

But the so much he can do is enough to make them worthless. Fireballs are slow enough to be easily powershielded if Dedede doesn't want to kill them with a jab or a tilt. They're best used on the approach, which is, again, something Mario can't do unless he wants to get grabbed.
FLUDDing off stage works well up until the point where the Dedede remembers that he can, y'know, walk back to where he was. The FLUDD doesn't put a grounded opponent in the air and its entire effect can be negated by simply running against it, and then we're right back where we were.

If Dedede doesn't get bored and finally approach you, there is nothing you can do to him.

Guilty Gear is not like MvC2.
MvC2 is not like melty Blood.
Melty Blood is not like tekken.

Shall I go on?
the same rules that regard an infinite apply because of the result. You DIE.
stop going baw baw baw its not the same since we have several games that are not the same.
you can't play GG like you wuld tekken, MvC2, etc etc.

They are fundamentally the same. Smash is fundamentally different.