Banning Dedede's infinite? FIRST POST UPDATED WITH VIDEO.

[Anther]

omfg "ICs and DDD, if you stop DDD's you have to stop ICs." That is the most annoying argument I've ever heard in my life. IC's infinite is situational enough that you can separate them, and it doesn't necessarily - even though it should/could - equal your stock if they get the cg off on you. Plus the fact that DDD doesn't get owned by most of the cast when his Nana dies and can usually pull off the regular broke *** CG.

Big Red, he gets ***** because he's not good enough to compete with those characters and/or you might not be playing the matchup right, not because of some silly technicality with the games innate mix-up / counter system that practically makes the characters unplayable against a "normal" character that isn't ICs, and has the best shield grab in the game. Plus I almost feel like Ganon should almost be fine against GW, but if every ganon says otherwise...

But ultimately, it doesn't affect me too much, and I'm just I'm sure great players of other characters are just dying to have to pick up metaknight because yall let DDD have a low risk grab infinite on several very viable tournament characters.

 

[dumba989]

Roflmao at the banning Ken post, i couldn't properly quote it, i screwed up on it, but it was pretty funny. Onto the matter of the topic, i don't think D3's CG should be banned, yeah, saying don't get grabbed is frustrating to hear, but, you have to learn to lower the odds of getting grabbed, although that in itself can be challenging because you have to deal damage and K.O. your opponent to win a match, and just infinitely stalling to avoid a grab by a character will end in a rematch or a stalemate, either way, ultimately, if the situation in which D3 uses it, it can be a disasterous infinite, like getting on the right side of Corneria or a wall of, lets say if the scenario plays itself out, on the platform of Smashville, and can dish out a ****load of damage then K.O. the opposing player with a Dtilt, and that pretty much sums it up, but for competitive reasons, yes, it should be banned, although, I myself do not think it should be

 

[bob-e]

When discussing development of the metagame, one always has to assume the hightest possible level of play, otherwise, you run into arguments like, "Well I beat my friend's Metaknight with Ganondorf all the time, so Ganondorf is obviously high tier." That being said, the point of Dedede's infinite being easy and Ice Climber's can be hard to pull off means nothing.

I main Falco, as such, I get ***** in the *** by any half decent G&W. But do I go around claiming that his back air or down smash are limiting Falco's metagame? No. I pick up Marth.

Learn to make good use of the counter pick system. If you want to main someone who Dedede can infinite, then it would be smart to learn G&W, Falco, or Pikachu as a secondary.

 

[salaboB]

When discussing development of the metagame, one always has to assume the hightest possible level of play, otherwise, you run into arguments like, "Well I beat my friend's Metaknight with Ganondorf all the time, so Ganondorf is obviously high tier." That being said, the point of Dedede's infinite being easy and Ice Climber's can be hard to pull off means nothing.

It means something, because while you should rightfully ignore how hard it is to perform the cg once you've grabbed someone with the right setup, due to grab range differences and the conditional nature of the IC cg (You need them both in the right place, and it's relatively easy to only engage at grab range when you've separated them) there is no comparison at all between "Don't let the ICs grab you" and "Don't let DDD grab you". The difference? Setup difficulty.

The setup difficulty of landing that grab matters at the top levels of play. When people say "difficulty doesn't matter" they mean technical difficulty, not setup difficulty. Parroting phrases you don't understand is not a good way to discuss a point.

For instance, let's say someone had a 1 hit KO move that they could activate anytime, but if you dodge it they'll be helpless and you'll 1 hit KO them back. But it comes out instantly with no warmup, so you just have to spot dodge at the exact right time -- it has an incredibly easy setup difficulty, and thus would be overpowered. Now give it 5 seconds of warmup, and suddenly it's not broken even though it's the same move -- the setup difficulty has just made it incredibly harder to perform it, which makes it far less realistic to win any matches for you. Yes, this is an extreme example, but it's demonstrating how setup difficulty of a move impacts how broken that move is.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

When discussing development of the metagame, one always has to assume the hightest possible level of play, otherwise, you run into arguments like, "Well I beat my friend's Metaknight with Ganondorf all the time, so Ganondorf is obviously high tier." That being said, the point of Dedede's infinite being easy and Ice Climber's can be hard to pull off means nothing.

I main Falco, as such, I get ***** in the *** by any half decent G&W. But do I go around claiming that his back air or down smash are limiting Falco's metagame? No. I pick up Marth.

Learn to make good use of the counter pick system. If you want to main someone who Dedede can infinite, then it would be smart to learn G&W, Falco, or Pikachu as a secondary.

"But Bob-e, my main's metagame should develop too!"

/sarcasm

Smooth Criminal

 

[The Bird]

My my, whatever happened to crippling spammers, and whatnot. When i fight someone like that I just ask for a rematch.

 

[Judge Judy]

But the so much he can do is enough to make them worthless. Fireballs are slow enough to be easily powershielded if Dedede doesn't want to kill them with a jab or a tilt. They're best used on the approach, which is, again, something Mario can't do unless he wants to get grabbed.
FLUDDing off stage works well up until the point where the Dedede remembers that he can, y'know, walk back to where he was. The FLUDD doesn't put a grounded opponent in the air and its entire effect can be negated by simply running against it, and then we're right back where we were.

If Dedede doesn't get bored and finally approach you, there is nothing you can do to him.



They are fundamentally the same. Smash is fundamentally different.

There is one thing you can do, but I wouldn't recommend it since it's so risky, is Up B, but if you miss or he powershields it you can get punished; it's a last resort move but it can break a stalemate if you land it.

 

[Luigi player]

ddd is broken for alot of other reasons

i've been MM people round here recently without d-throw and i do about the same if not better.

Against what players did you fight? And what characters did they use?

Also, aren't you placing high at tourneys? Maybe the other players just aren't as good as you, idk.


But... Dedede can really only dthrow and bair. Okay, his other throws are strong too, but still...

Everytime I play against a Dedede I think that without the chaingrab he could do nothing.....

He can do a few other throws, utilt, bairs. Other then that he might hit with some other attacks if the enemy has bad reflexes... otherwise I can't think of anything that makes him good.

Dedede would totally suck without his chaingrab. And I can't understand people who say otherwise.....

Dedede can edgeguard really good, but he can't get his opponent away from the stage without the dthrow or a lucky hit with a other attack -_-


I hate it that I can never really savely use DK in any of my fights and that I always have to be scared that my enemy might use Dedede...

All other characters that he can chaingrab are also beaten only by the chaingrab... It is soo unfair...

 

[cutter]

ddd is broken for alot of other reasons

You seem to have the definition of "broken" quite mistaken.

 

[brinboy789]

Against what players did you fight? And what characters did they use?

Also, aren't you placing high at tourneys? Maybe the other players just aren't as good as you, idk.


But... Dedede can really only dthrow and bair. Okay, his other throws are strong too, but still...

Everytime I play against a Dedede I think that without the chaingrab he could do nothing.....

He can do a few other throws, utilt, bairs. Other then that he might hit with some other attacks if the enemy has bad reflexes... otherwise I can't think of anything that makes him good.

Dedede would totally suck without his chaingrab. And I can't understand people who say otherwise.....

Dedede can edgeguard really good, but he can't get his opponent away from the stage without the dthrow or a lucky hit with a other attack -_-


I hate it that I can never really savely use DK in any of my fights and that I always have to be scared that my enemy might use Dedede...

All other characters that he can chaingrab are also beaten only by the chaingrab... It is soo unfair...

wrong. D3 has many things that make him good, you cant just get 3rd on tier list with just CG. he has a broken ranged ftilt, dtilt after CG, and utilt is equivalent to snakes without the broken range. AAA combo sucks. bair and fair are amazing and can WOP, uair and dair and pretty situational, and nair can autocancel, leading to other setups. i dont even need to get into grabs. waddle dee throw is amazing, not because of the damage, (unless its a gordo), but because it blocks projectiles (IMO). D_B sucks. up+B is amazing recovery with SA frames. Inhalecides for one stock lead.

oh, did i mention he has 4 jumps in midair? coupled with a godly recovery, and a crapload of fat, we have one hard to kill char.

edit: whoops forgot smashes. fsmash is SLOW AS HELL, but if hit kills @ 44% in middle of FD O.o strongest smash in the game. usmash is kinda laggy but hits all around. dsmash comes out fast but has lag afterward. smashes arent that great, utilt and aerials are the way to kill

 

[Smooth Criminal]

wrong. D3 has many things that make him good, you cant just get 3rd on tier list with just CG. he has a broken ranged ftilt, dtilt after CF, and utilt is equivalent to snakes without the broken range. AAA combo sucks. bair and fair are amazing and can WOP, uair and dair and pretty situational, and nair can autocancel, leading to other setups. i dont even need to get into grabs. waddle dee throw is amazing, not because of the damage, (unless its a gordo), but because it blocks projectiles (IMO). D_B sucks. up+B is amazing recovery with SA frames. Inhalecides for one stock lead.

oh, did i mention he has 4 jumps in midair? coupled with a godly recovery, and a crapload of fat, we have one hard to kill char.

THANK YOU.

Wait, Brinboy. The way you phrased that made DDD sound as if he's "Meta-broken." Uh-oh. Looks like he's the next character to go on the chopping block.

OSHI

Smooth Criminal

 

[Phaigne]

I don't really care about this since it doesn't apply to me as a Pit main, but I think it is unfair. If you ban things because they are unfair, then yes, it should be banned. Also, just to throw this out there to the people who do not support banning the infinite, what are you afraid of? Is it too scary to actually put risk into a game?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I don't really care about this since it doesn't apply to me as a Pit main, but I think it is unfair. If you ban things because they are unfair, then yes, it should be banned. Also, just to throw this out there to the people who do not support banning the infinite, what are you afraid of? Is it too scary to actually put risk into a game?

Risk?

CG isn't even half of what makes DDD so **** good, and yet they're vouching to get rid of it. It has nothing to do with something as pithy as risk. Sounds to me like people are just looking for an easy way out of some absolutes in this ****ty game.

Smooth Criminal

 

[cutter]

I don't really care about this since it doesn't apply to me as a Pit main, but I think it is unfair. If you ban things because they are unfair, then yes, it should be banned. Also, just to throw this out there to the people who do not support banning the infinite, what are you afraid of? Is it too scary to actually put risk into a game?

Sheik REALLY made things insurmountably unfair for a good amount of characters in Melee.

We don't ban things because they are "unfair". We ban things when they become the only viable choice in the metagame.

 

[Luigi player]

wrong. D3 has many things that make him good, you cant just get 3rd on tier list with just CG. he has a broken ranged ftilt, dtilt after CF, and utilt is equivalent to snakes without the broken range. AAA combo sucks. bair and fair are amazing and can WOP, uair and dair and pretty situational, and nair can autocancel, leading to other setups. i dont even need to get into grabs. waddle dee throw is amazing, not because of the damage, (unless its a gordo), but because it blocks projectiles (IMO). D_B sucks. up+B is amazing recovery with SA frames. Inhalecides for one stock lead.

oh, did i mention he has 4 jumps in midair? coupled with a godly recovery, and a crapload of fat, we have one hard to kill char.

edit: whoops forgot smashes. fsmash is SLOW AS HELL, but if hit kills @ 44% in middle of FD O.o strongest smash in the game. usmash is kinda laggy but hits all around. dsmash comes out fast but has lag afterward. smashes arent that great, utilt and aerials are the way to kill

What does CF means? His dtilt is good. I'm okay with all of his attacks, just not the dthrow.
His ftilt might have good range, but it's not that fast so he shouldn't be hitting with it that often. It's also really weak, and has ending lag so you can punish him.
Uair and dair are annoying, but not THAT good. Nair autocancels? Wow, and? His nair sucks ****ing balls. You can like never hit your opponent with it. Waddle Dee throw is amazing? lol. I don't get how people think that. The only reason why they are useful is because they stop other projectiles, but they are REALLY slow, so nobody should get hit by them or something. And it would be easy to appoarch Dedede if you wouldn't have to fear the stupid dthrow... Inhale is good, true. UpB sucks imo. He is so punishable if he does it.

If you can hang on the edge with it before your enemy edgehogs then it's fine, but otherwise it sucks.

He is hard to kill and has a good recovery, but everything you said don't make him THAT broken... if you get hit by a smash you just have bad luck really. It won't happen often if at all. Maybe if he can mindgame you. And yeah his smashes suck if your enemy knows how to avoid them. His utilt is really good, but it's range sucks. I'm more scared of Snakes utilt...


Dedede would still suck without the chaingrab. Everyone he can't chaingrab has the advantage against him (or so I heard...). Strange, isn't it?

My Ness would so destroy Dedede if he couldn't just always chaingrab me around for about 30+ damage and he also get's a free edge guarding opportunity which can kill Ness really easily because his bair is really good. If he couldn't chaingrab with his dthrow, he'd have to rack up damage somehow else. But Dedede can't really do this too good. If Ness wouldn't be in such a bad situation after the dthrow near the edge Dedede could nearly never get people anywhere off the stage (except up).

You also can't say avoid getting grabbed because he has ridiculous grab range. It wouldn't be THAT bad, but if he can get 30+ damage out of it?

It shouldn't be like that, especially not for characters he can infinite.


Dedede wouldn't suck that bad without the chaingrab, but he still wouldn't be really good or anything.

 

[Phaigne]

^^That is why I did not outright say "ban." The thing about it is, DDD's CG is unfair. Like I said, the CG doesn't affect me, I just think that DDD players have way less to lose here than the alleged victims.

 

[CO18]

Really. 1 grab from IC means death. Let DDD have his infinite.

Has anyone tested DDD's infinites with...... that thing that lets Ness escape Marth's infinite?

Dedede's down throw has a set knockback its not a grab release.

IC's infinites are taken into account yet they are only mid-high tier and barely do good at tourneys.


A Person does not have to MAIN Dedede to simply change their c-stick to grab in which case its almost IMPOSSIBLE to mess up meaning no matter who a DK/Mario/Luigi/Samus/Bowser main plays they WILL lose because all the opponent has to do is set their c-stick to grab and its over.

This needs to be banned and it's ********. It helps me and I know its ********. It is impossible for me to lose to any character that can be infinited if I choose to infinite them basically.

So you're telling me its completely unfair for lets say me to play BUM somewhere where infinites arent banned and I would win 99.9% of our matches yet im not a better player than Bum because he wins basically every tourney he attends(with d3's infinite banned) btw.

Which just proves these characters would be much more tourney viable if it wasnt for d3's infinite.

I dont think its a coincidence that basically the best/ one of the best tourney placing people with the given characters DK(BUM) Mario/Luigi(Boss) Bowser(Vex) are all from places where infinites are banned otherwise they would have little to no chance of winning ONE match for that matter if someone just decided to change their c-stick to grab and infinite them with d3 unless they changed characters which is unfair to them.

 

[brinboy789]

What does CF means? His dtilt is good. I'm okay with all of his attacks, just not the dthrow.
His ftilt might have good range, but it's not that fast so he shouldn't be hitting with it that often. It's also really weak, and has ending lag so you can punish him.
Uair and dair are annoying, but not THAT good. Nair autocancels? Wow, and? His nair sucks ****ing balls. You can like never hit your opponent with it. Waddle Dee throw is amazing? lol. I don't get how people think that. The only reason why they are useful is because they stop other projectiles, but they are REALLY slow, so nobody should get hit by them or something. And it would be easy to appoarch Dedede if you wouldn't have to fear the stupid dthrow... Inhale is good, true. UpB sucks imo. He is so punishable if he does it.

If you can hang on the edge with it before your enemy edgehogs then it's fine, but otherwise it sucks.

He is hard to kill and has a good recovery, but everything you said don't make him THAT broken... if you get hit by a smash you just have bad luck really. It won't happen often if at all. Maybe if he can mindgame you. And yeah his smashes suck if your enemy knows how to avoid them. His utilt is really good, but it's range sucks. I'm more scared of Snakes utilt..

*quick edit* his ftilt comes out surprisingly fast actually, does moderate damage, but the range...even rivals samus's zair...and it has such long range and nto much cooldown time so its not that easy to punish. agreed, dair and uair arent that good, but they have thier uses. nair does suck, but it can be autocanceled into many setups. waddle dee spamming is more effective then you think. its not really THAT easy to hit, but it blocks projectiles, which is a major plus. and gordos = win. and his Up+B should NEVER be used for attacking...only for recovering. and when you have a choice of falling to your death or using Up+B, i would choose the latter. true it has bad landing lag, but there are...stars(?) that come out when he lands that knocks away anybody thats there . smashes suck i agree. and yes snakes utilt is better, but they have about the same killing range. only snakes has WAY more raneg

im not saying hes broken, but hes definitely really good. enough to make 3rd. althought myself personally think G&W is going above him .G&W is uber broken.

 

[Luigi player]

*quick edit* his ftilt comes out surprisingly fast actually, does moderate damage, but the range...even rivals samus's zair...and it has such long range and nto much cooldown time so its not that easy to punish. agreed, dair and uair arent that good, but they have thier uses. nair does suck, but it can be autocanceled into many setups. waddle dee spamming is more effective then you think. its not really THAT easy to hit, but it blocks projectiles, which is a major plus. and gordos = win. and his Up+B should NEVER be used for attacking...only for recovering. and when you have a choice of falling to your death or using Up+B, i would choose the latter. true it has bad landing lag, but there are...stars(?) that come out when he lands that knocks away anybody thats there . smashes suck i agree. and yes snakes utilt is better, but they have about the same killing range. only snakes has WAY more raneg

im not saying hes broken, but hes definitely really good. enough to make 3rd. althought myself personally think G&W is going above him .G&W is uber broken.

Well maybe I'm making Dedede worse than he is (without the dthrow chaingrab), but he just completely shuts down 5 characters and many of the other ones he can chaingrab are at a really big disadvantage...

It shouldn't really be like that... he's much more a problem than MK imo...

 

[brinboy789]

Well maybe I'm making Dedede worse than he is (without the dthrow chaingrab), but he just completely shuts down 5 characters and many of the other ones he can chaingrab are at a really big disadvantage...

It shouldn't really be like that... he's much more a problem than MK imo...

the other ones he can CG are...more then half of the brawl cast, lol.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

but MK has like no bad matchups, counters, stage counters, barely any useless moves other than fsmash. at least for those who aren't cgable by DDD you can take him to luigis mansion, you can gimp him.

 

[cutter]

Just to let you guys know, Sheik did the same thing in Melee that D3 is doing against characters who get victimized by the infinites.

 

[aeghrur]

Melee also had a deeper metagame, wavedashing, l-canceling to harder to grab, and all this other stuff.

 

[brinboy789]

but MK has like no bad matchups, counters, stage counters, barely any useless moves other than fsmash. at least for those who aren't cgable by DDD you can take him to luigis mansion, you can gimp him.

usmash sucks. drill rush UBER SUCKS. dimensional cape sucks (IDC is banned).
fsmash actually isnt that bad lol.

and correct me if im wrong, but what in luigi's mansion is helping you gimp him?

 

[XxBlackxX]

but MK has like no bad matchups, counters, stage counters, barely any useless moves other than fsmash. at least for those who aren't cgable by DDD you can take him to luigis mansion, you can gimp him.

what? what does luigi's mansion have to do with gimping D3?

 

[aeghrur]

On an unrelated note, Luigi's Mansion+MK's Dtilt=**** of Sonic. ;_;

 

[brinboy789]

On an unrelated note, Luigi's Mansion+MK's Dtilt=**** of Sonic. ;_;

dtilt? how? dont you mean utilt? like keep on using it against the cieling? if it is, olimar usmash and pit utilt is much better

 

[XxBlackxX]

On an unrelated note, Luigi's Mansion+MK=**** of everyone except maybe olimar

fix'd.

10char

 

[Luigi player]

That's why I don't like Melee. You're helpless if you get grabbed ONCE or just get combo'd to death sometimes.

It's just boring if you're helpless and can't do ANYTHING, but at least in Melee you needed skill to do it. Same with Ice Climbers. It might still be a bit easy with them, but Dededes is MUCH MUCH easier...

 

[cutter]

Melee also had a deeper metagame, wavedashing, l-canceling to harder to grab, and all this other stuff.

Even with a deeper game and more useful ATs, it still didn't save characters like Bowser, Link, Roy, Pikachu, Pichu, etc. from being completely wasted by Sheik.

She limited the character selection far more than D3, and Melee had fewer characters.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

That's why I don't like Melee. You're helpless if you get grabbed ONCE or just get combo'd to death sometimes.

It's called DI.

>___>

Smooth Criminal

 

[XxBlackxX]

That's why I don't like Melee. You're helpless if you get grabbed ONCE or just get combo'd to death sometimes.

It's just boring if you're helpless and can't do ANYTHING, but at least in Melee you needed skill to do it. Same with Ice Climbers. It might still be a bit easy with them, but Dededes is MUCH MUCH easier...

what? how can you not like melee? it actually takes a lotta skill to combo and 0-death. there's also techs to make grabbing harder. that's why if you played or even watched competitive melee, it's not like whoever grabs first wins or anything like that. plus, melee had WAVEDASHING. xD

 

[XxBlackxX]

Even with a deeper game and more useful ATs, it still didn't save characters like Bowser, Link, Roy, Pikachu, Pichu, etc. from being completely wasted by Sheik.

She limited the character selection far more than D3, and Melee had fewer characters.

and yet....shiek's grabs wasn't ever banned in melee. i dont see why so many people are complaining about it in brawl. >_>

 

[Phaigne]

Even with a deeper game and more useful ATs, it still didn't save characters like Bowser, Link, Roy, Pikachu, Pichu, etc. from being completely wasted by Sheik.

She limited the character selection far more than D3, and Melee had fewer characters.

Are you saying we should let something like this happen again?

 

[Luigi player]

I know about DI, but if I'm playing Fox or other fastfaller it's easy for my enemy (if he's good) to chaingrab me nearly to death, something like this is just boring for me.

DI didn't help either.

I only like Melee teams... there aren't those nearly endless combos all the time =/

 

[XxBlackxX]

I know about DI, but if I'm playing Fox or other fastfaller it's easy for my enemy (if he's good) to chaingrab me nearly to death, something like this is just boring for me.

DI didn't help either.

are you talking about melee or brawl here?

 

[aeghrur]

dtilt? how? dont you mean utilt? like keep on using it against the cieling? if it is, olimar usmash and pit utilt is much better

No, dtilt behind piller with MK against sonic.
Ask overswarm or Tenki why it kills sonics.

 

[CO18]

Are you saying we should let something like this happen again?

I approve this message.

 

[Luigi player]

are you talking about melee or brawl here?

Melee obviously

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Are you saying we should let something like this happen again?

Oh, dear Christ. *gags.*

I'm done.

/unsubscribes

Smooth Criminal