Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[gamadaya]

Question... would this be useful in a tier list? Characters with better advantages=higher tier? Just a thought.

I'd think so. If a character has a lot of advantages and few disadvantages, I'm guessing he's going to be tough to beat. I've actually never seen a chart like this for Melee. Has anybody made one?

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'd think so. If a character has a lot of advantages and few disadvantages, I'm guessing he's going to be tough to beat. I've actually never seen a chart like this for Melee. Has anybody made one?

I don't think they were considered massively in previous tier lists, no. Though a lot of thought was put into counter-picks and such. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Ice Climbers a counter for Sheik, even though Sheik was higher in the tiers?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Uhhhh. I don't have Marth at advantage vs Olimar.

It's even.

Also I made some changes to the Marth match-up thread.

Honestly it's pissing me off that people keep stating the obvious.

"Marth has the most advantage match-ups!!!"

Yeah, no ****. His chart is also the most filled out and probably the most accurate compared to the rest of the cast, since other people except for a select few don't know **** about match-up analysis.

 

[Zankoku]

If Marth is even or better against every single character in the game, logic would point to him being top tier because the best Marth player will never be at a disadvantage. This kind of conflicts with your claim that Marth is not top tier, along with your opinion that tier lists should be built based on overall matchups.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Re-visit the Marth match-up thread Ankoku. I changed some of Marth's match-ups.

Also it's not just about how many match-ups you have that are in your disadvantage or advantage.

It's also about ratio.

Let's say Falco and Snake have no bad match-ups which I think is true.

You also have to look at ratios. Let's say Marth goes even with most of the top tier while Snake and Falco have 7/3 advantage on most of the top tier.

Wouldn't Snake and Falco be better then Marth?

Yes, they would. There is much more to consider in a match-up based tier list then just advantage, disadvantage and even match-ups. You have to look at all the ratios and understand why the ratios are what they are.

 

[Zankoku]

Ratios would only change how the order would go among the top tier - having no disadvantageous matchups still implies being top tier. I see that you've changed up your list to have some losing matchups, though, so I guess the whole argument is irrelevant.

 

[Almo]

marth has trouble against pikachu, or maybe it just me.

 

[Chozo01]

Lulz at nobody having an advantage against Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Almo: It's just you. Start jabbing thunder jolts and it gets alot easier.

 

[KaShank]

Cool, I strongly agree with what your doing the only comments I would leave would be that Pit most likely won't have good match ups against Marth and Ike. Neutral at best. Anyway, especially Ike will destroy Pit aerialy and Marth has his own extreme benefits.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser ***** Captain Falcon. Seriously, Captain Falcon is so bad in Brawl, and Bowser is really good. I'm pretty sure many of those "bad" matchups Bowser has are actually even, but I'll rant about that later.

Don't believe me? Let's look at simple details first.

Bowser wins in:
Range
Priority
Attack speed (surprise!)
Kill options
Approach
Defensive game
Grab range (Klaw included)
Survivability

Captain Falcon wins in:
Running speed

No joke. Whoever thought that Captain Falcon had the advantage on Bowser was clearly doing drugs.

Anyhow, Captain Falcon sucks (he's the worst character in the game). He can't approach because all of his options for approaching are easily punished. He can't kill because he can't reliably land any of his kill moves because they are all too situational. He really doesn't have a single thing going for him. It's important to note that Falcon's strong point is supposed to be his air game. Bowser actually has a better air game than Falcon, and that isn't even his strong point.

Yeah seriously someone should change that crap now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

CF has advantage vs nobody.

I thought this was known already?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah. I'm still griping however about how that chart has given too many disadvantaged matchups to Bowser for no reason.

And I dunno Emblem Lord, I'm one of those people who firmly believes Captain Falcon is #1 worst. I know of others who say it's Ganondorf.

 

[ph00tbag]

At this point, I think it's time to admit that ZSS destroys Fox. Fox has relatively high hitstun, and is a fast faller, so ZSS can actually combo him very well with UpB and uairs. When she throws him, he's right screwed, and she can dsmash chain him up to 90%. He's also lightweight, so she doesn't have so much trouble killing him.

For Fox's part, he has tremendous trouble spacing against ZSS, and it's hard to combo her because she's so light and floaty, and has decent hitstun. He might be able to gimp her recovery, but may people find gimping ZSS to be easier said than done. He also has trouble killing her because of her dair, which cancels a lot of upwards momentum, and some sideways momentum as well.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Her Dair does not cancel momentum after she's been hit.
You can airdodge and Dair but the momentum of the Dair will not cancel momentuma t all.
The only character capable of canceling it completely is Sonic who has to airdodge then using his homing attack.
How does falling fast become a disadvantage? it only adds to Fox's speed and he falls slower than he did in melee.
When she throws him why is he screwed? More information please.

How does fox have high hitstun? Airdodging reduces the hitstun.
Why does Fox have trouble comboing ZSS?
Dair to Utilt to Usmash is really good considering it can cause her to trip.
Many of his moves will kill her because she is so very light.
Why would he have problems with spacing? reflector comes up fast and overall he attacks faster and moves faster.

 

[Wing-Zero]

****! i geuss falco is hard to beat ......

 

[ph00tbag]

Her Dair does not cancel momentum after she's been hit.
You can airdodge and Dair but the momentum of the Dair will not cancel momentuma t all.
The only character capable of canceling it completely is Sonic who has to airdodge then using his homing attack.
How does falling fast become a disadvantage? it only adds to Fox's speed and he falls slower than he did in melee.
When she throws him why is he screwed? More information please.

How does fox have high hitstun? Airdodging reduces the hitstun.
Why does Fox have trouble comboing ZSS?
Dair to Utilt to Usmash is really good considering it can cause her to trip.
Many of his moves will kill her because she is so very light.
Why would he have problems with spacing? reflector comes up fast and overall he attacks faster and moves faster.

I play ZSS. I can guarantee you that dair subtracts momentum from upward knockback. If you don't know this, then you really have no business telling me off here, because you're obviously oblivious.

Fast falling speed has always been a double-edged sword, Fox could use it to combo in Melee, but he was also very, very easy for other characters to combo. His high falling speed and relatively high hitstun mean that out of dthrows at middle percent, he will get uair chained or usmashed like nothing else. This is pretty much unavoidable for him.

And yes, the hitstun matters. Airdodging does not cancel hitstun. Hitstun is the period during which you can't do anything. You cannot airdodge in hitstun you cannot do anything, and if you are attacked in this period, Training mode reads it as a consecutive hit. I can do a uair chain on Fox in training mode out of a dthrow, and it will show up as three, four, sometimes five consecutive hits. If he DIs away, I can run towards him and usmash. If he DIs towards me, I use Plasma Wire. There are plenty of follow-ups to dthrow, which work very well on Foxes, because they don't go very far.

Fox can do some combos on Zamus, as much as he can do it to anyone. But at middle percents, she gets too far away, and recovers too quickly.

Many of his moves will knock her high, and she'll dair ASAP to survive up to 180%. I've seen this happen. I am not lying to you by any stretch.

And if you think any character wouldn't have spacing troubles against ZSS, you've obviously never played a good ZSS. Try reflecting Plasma Whip. I dare you.

 

[Zankoku]

I play ZSS. I can guarantee you that dair subtracts momentum from upward knockback. If you don't know this, then you really have no business telling me off here, because you're obviously oblivious.

I've done extensive testing with ZSS, Sheik, and the like regarding special-momentum aerials and affecting knockback momentum. I can guarantee you that her fair subtracts more upward knockback momentum than her dair. If you don't know this, you have no business lecturing someone else on the physics of the game.

Fast falling speed has always been a double-edged sword, Fox could use it to combo in Melee, but he was also very, very easy for other characters to combo. His high falling speed and relatively high hitstun mean that out of dthrows at middle percent, he will get uair chained or usmashed like nothing else. This is pretty much unavoidable for him.

Hitstun is based on a combination of the character's weight, percentage, and the attack's own programmed amount of hitstun. Fox was very light and fell quickly enough to get hit by more attacks before breaking out of hitstun... in MELEE. In Brawl, he doesn't fall quickly at all and hitstun is reduced a significant amount. So, no, he will not get combo'd into a bunch of hits because simply DIing to the side and air-dodging will avoid any aerial ZSS attempts at the earliest possible moment. He can probably even jump before you can hit him, too.

And yes, the hitstun matters. Airdodging does not cancel hitstun. Hitstun is the period during which you can't do anything. You cannot airdodge in hitstun you cannot do anything, and if you are attacked in this period, Training mode reads it as a consecutive hit. I can do a uair chain on Fox in training mode out of a dthrow, and it will show up as three, four, sometimes five consecutive hits. If he DIs away, I can run towards him and usmash. If he DIs towards me, I use Plasma Wire. There are plenty of follow-ups to dthrow, which work very well on Foxes, because they don't go very far.

Training mode is irrelevant for testing combos because not only does it not actually account for diminishing returns, the power of an attack in Training mode is actually weaker than an undiminished attack normally, yet stronger than a singly-diminished attack.

Fox can do some combos on Zamus, as much as he can do it to anyone. But at middle percents, she gets too far away, and recovers too quickly.

dair > something combos at percentages all the way up to 100%, the death percentage.

Many of his moves will knock her high, and she'll dair ASAP to survive up to 180%. I've seen this happen. I am not lying to you by any stretch.

Yeah, and I've survived Zelda's fsmash at 170% before, because the Zelda player had hit me with about five other Zelda fsmashes beforehand that I SDI'd out of. It's called diminishing returns - a Fox usmash will kill you at a percentage FAR less than 180%, regardless of any DI or momentum canceling using aerials you attempt.

And if you think any character wouldn't have spacing troubles against ZSS, you've obviously never played a good ZSS. Try reflecting Plasma Whip. I dare you.

ZSS's range goes in two directions - directly in front of her and directly above her. I'd say spacing diagonally would manage to stifle her game quite effectively.

 

[Griffard]

i can tell you ganondorf almost always has an advantage over captain falcon.
ganondorf and bowser are roughly equal.

 

[EternalCrusade]

I wouldnt follow this chart too religously...

but if it helps, I play as MK and my two hardest matchups are snake and wolf

 

[k4polo]

I've done extensive testing with ZSS, Sheik, and the like regarding special-momentum aerials and affecting knockback momentum. I can guarantee you that her fair subtracts more upward knockback momentum than her dair. If you don't know this, you have no business lecturing someone else on the physics of the game.


Hitstun is based on a combination of the character's weight, percentage, and the attack's own programmed amount of hitstun. Fox was very light and fell quickly enough to get hit by more attacks before breaking out of hitstun... in MELEE. In Brawl, he doesn't fall quickly at all and hitstun is reduced a significant amount. So, no, he will not get combo'd into a bunch of hits because simply DIing to the side and air-dodging will avoid any aerial ZSS attempts at the earliest possible moment. He can probably even jump before you can hit him, too.


Training mode is irrelevant for testing combos because not only does it not actually account for diminishing returns, the power of an attack in Training mode is actually weaker than an undiminished attack normally, yet stronger than a singly-diminished attack.


dair > something combos at percentages all the way up to 100%, the death percentage.


Yeah, and I've survived Zelda's fsmash at 170% before, because the Zelda player had hit me with about five other Zelda fsmashes beforehand that I SDI'd out of. It's called diminishing returns - a Fox usmash will kill you at a percentage FAR less than 180%, regardless of any DI or momentum canceling using aerials you attempt.



ZSS's range goes in two directions - directly in front of her and directly above her. I'd say spacing diagonally would manage to stifle her game quite effectively.

I am a ZSS main and there are ways to countering alot of this. Like spacing diagonal isn't too good as she can side b in air easily and Hyphen up smash. She can cover vertically UP B UP A, horizontally Side B and diagonally pretty well(Jumping Side B, Hyphen Up smash or UP B.

Air dodging always leaves you at a disadvantage afterwards so her air combos can work on fox. I tend to play mind games for the aerial combos against people who recover fast. It is quite effective and is pretty much require for ZSS players.

The Delayed air combo is good for ppl like fox. Expecting them to DI and air dodge and combo them when available.( Remember shes a fast character and can catch up to an opponent quickly)Controlling an opponent in the air on characters like fox is critical.

Yes you can airdodge some of her combos but you can take advantage of that of the airdodging. It is practically a free hit after they do it. Expecting them to air dodge is critical as well.

I can see why someone would say ZSS can beat fox. Foxes Up smash can kill ZSS at a relatively low percentage but the problem is that she is a ranged fighter. Up smash of foxhas to be down relatively close. Hyphen up smash could be useful tho but can be outspaced.

Plus up smash with fox is unsafe so she can punish that.Fox does most his damage close range but ZSS does most of her damage long range although she isn't that bad at short range.

IF I were playing fox i would space him out and not allow him close to me. That way I wont have to deal with the up smash

I think that alot of people don't know much about ZSS though.I think further testing and tourneys will deeply effect the new characters of the game. Right now people are unsure about how an expert ZSS, or Dedede, or Metaknight would play. It is too early. Character match-ups ought to be very interesting this game.

 

[ph00tbag]

I've done extensive testing with ZSS, Sheik, and the like regarding special-momentum aerials and affecting knockback momentum. I can guarantee you that her fair subtracts more upward knockback momentum than her dair. If you don't know this, you have no business lecturing someone else on the physics of the game.

My experience has shown me otherwise, but if you've tested this, I'll concede the point.

I also did some checking, and it seems that Fox's hitstun is still shorter than I thought. Regardless, I've in general found Fox an easy character to combo as ZSS. It's been a while since I played a Fox, though, so perhaps the way the metagame for him works has changed.

 

[Conda]

Wario has an advantage over Ness? LOL
This video proves you wrong. :S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF4EZYk21RI

 

[IvanEva]

Wario has an advantage over Ness? LOL
This video proves you wrong. :S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF4EZYk21RI

Please don't post garbage like that in this thread. Rick Roll wannabes have no place here (or anywhere).

 

[Dark Sonic]

Air dodging always leaves you at a disadvantage afterwards so her air combos can work on fox

I tend to play mind games for the aerial combos against people who recover fast. It is quite effective and is pretty much require for ZSS players.

The Delayed air combo is good for ppl like fox. Expecting them to DI and air dodge and combo them when available.( Remember shes a fast character and can catch up to an opponent quickly)


Controlling an opponent in the air on characters like fox is critical.

Yes you can airdodge some of her combos but you can take advantage of that of the airdodging.

It is practically a free hit after they do it

How does this make Zamus good. Matchups only apply when the players are evenly skilled. Do not forget that.

I can see why someone would say ZSS can beat fox. Foxes Up smash can kill ZSS at a relatively low percentage but the problem is that she is a ranged fighter. Up smash of foxhas to be down relatively close. Hyphen up smash could be useful tho but can be outspaced.

Plus up smash with fox is unsafe so she can punish that.Fox does most his damage close range but ZSS does most of her damage long range although she isn't that bad at short range.

Now here's an arguement.

Okay, I could see your point of Zamus being a ranged fighter. Unfortunately (unlike Marth) Zamus lacks diagonal range (her moves don't arc enough). This means that short hop approaches with Fox are relatively safe, and coupled with the fact that his dair actually combos into stuff, it's a really powerful asset for Fox. The problem with Zamus's range is that it lacks that sweeping motion (similar to how Marth's Fair is considered better than his Nair, dispite Nair having more power and horizontal range) that halts approaches and it's generally easier to get inside of Zamus's range than other characters (Marth, Metaknight, Toon Link, Game and Watch, ect).

 

[ph00tbag]

How does this make Zamus good. Matchups only apply when the players are evenly skilled. Do not forget that.

Now here's an arguement.

Okay, I could see your point of Zamus being a ranged fighter. Unfortunately (unlike Marth) Zamus lacks diagonal range (her moves don't arc enough). This means that short hop approaches with Fox are relatively safe, and coupled with the fact that his dair actually combos into stuff, it's a really powerful asset for Fox. The problem with Zamus's range is that it lacks that sweeping motion (similar to how Marth's Fair is considered better than his Nair, dispite Nair having more power and horizontal range) that halts approaches and it's generally easier to get inside of Zamus's range than other characters (Marth, Metaknight, Toon Link, Game and Watch, ect).

The diagonal approach vector is really quite thin when you look at how wide the range of Zamus' usmash is. Some people think that they can come in at over 45%, but they really can't unless their character is very small. The trajectory is a bit convoluted, from what I've seen approaching other ZSSs, and the rate of success is really dependent on the priority of the move. Honestly, I can't say that Fox couldn't outprioritize Zamus' tilts once he got there, but the likelihood of a Fox getting there in just the right way against an equally skilled ZSS who knows how to protect her weak point is not as high as him not getting there.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Some people think that they can come in at over 45%, but they really can't unless their character is very small.

Fox is not exactly a giant.

The trajectory is a bit convoluted, from what I've seen approaching other ZSSs, and the rate of success is really dependent on the priority of the move.

Dair has decent priority.

Honestly, I can't say that Fox couldn't outprioritize Zamus' tilts once he got there, but the likelihood of a Fox getting there in just the right way against an equally skilled ZSS who knows how to protect her weak point is not as high as him not getting there.

I'll give you that. The upsmash is rather large itself and a bit decieving. However, it's still going to be an issue for Zamus as a good fox will do just as much to exploit this weakness as the Zamus would do to cover it up. Doesn't help much that Fox is also a very fast character and thus spacing adjustments are easier for him than they are for you (though Zamus isn't slow herself, it's just that she's much faster spacing wise on the offensive than on defense).

 

[smasher91613]

is it side against top or vice versa? as in does falco have the disadvantage against bowser or does bowser have a disadvantage against falco?

i'm thinking its that bowser has the disadvantage to falco..

 

[Valken]

is it side against top or vice versa? as in does falco have the disadvantage against bowser or does bowser have a disadvantage against falco?

i'm thinking its that bowser has the disadvantage to falco..

I think you're right...

 

[IvanEva]

It's left to right. As in "character from the left row" has [advantage/dis/etc.] when against "character from top column." I'll have to try to find a way to make it clearer.

 

[smasher91613]

how did u come up with this by the way?

 

[WeLikeIke]

I like how marth has no disadvantages....

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm gonna stab someone, I swear on my life.

 

[k4polo]

I like how marth has no disadvantages....

Yea he doesn't have much disadvantage. He does have disadvantages but they are relatively small compared to other characters. He has the advantage over alot of people and that is simply true. Quick and he outprioritizes attacks and can keep the opponent at a Range

Also short hop diagonally can be dealt with ZSS. Short hop side B or wavebounce side b can be very effective. OF course there are many ways to deal with diagonal short hopping.(At least I can think alot) Also a decent ZSS player is going to do side B in a way that she is safe and unpunishable way and keep their distance. Also side B has relatively decent recovery time.

The experts know way more than me though. I would think a diagonal approach against a expert ZSS player will fail but know one really knows. Its too early really and there is not enough information. (The meta-game is being established now.)

The experts are incredible players that find ways to deal with difficult situations. Then again I do see the pattern of "Fox can OWN Marth" Then someone argue for it and against it. I guess that how it is. I am no different.

Also I just post my opinions of a situation . I could be wrong. Also what is said here is not always was done in practice.

Either way this thread is pretty good for explaining match-ups in general of all characters.

 

[Meta Dude]

as a yoshi mainer, i feel pretty comfortable in saying his part of the chart is incorrectly filled. while he doesn't have many characters that he has advantages over, there are very few who have a CLEAR advantage over him, those being g&w, pikachu (this one is actually being argued on our boards atm), and meta knight come to mind. most of those disadvantages for yoshi should be taken off, i have no idea how characters like Donkey kong, lucario, and mario (to name a few) have clear advantages over him. i've never had problems with characters like these with yosh. most people who play him would say he's pretty balance at this point.

 

[Ants]

i dont c how bowser has an advantage over sonic, especially since they r both on opposite ends of character speeds with bowser being on the lower.

iv checked the bowser and sonic threads u provided and the sonic one even says that sonic has the advantage over bowser.

well either way, i really shouldnt be trying to take away from one of the two character advantages that bowser has.

 

[IvanEva]

as a yoshi mainer, i feel pretty comfortable in saying his part of the chart is incorrectly filled. while he doesn't have many characters that he has advantages over, there are very few who have a CLEAR advantage over him, those being g&w, pikachu (this one is actually being argued on our boards atm), and meta knight come to mind. most of those disadvantages for yoshi should be taken off, i have no idea how characters like Donkey kong, lucario, and mario (to name a few) have clear advantages over him. i've never had problems with characters like these with yosh. most people who play him would say he's pretty balance at this point.

Yet everybody else seems to agree that he's at a disadvantage against just about everybody. As for the three characters you named:

Donkey Kong's overall longer range, about equal attack speed, and much better KO options give him a large edge against the dinosaur. Yoshi's edge guarding abilities may be pretty good but who do you think goes flying off the stage more often in this match-up? Donkey Kong is heavier and has an easier time approaching Yoshi than the other way around. There's absolutely nothing that Yoshi has that Donkey Kong can't easily defend himself from which is then followed by him punching Yoshi's brains in. The only advantage Yoshi has here is his painful down air on Donkey Kong's large frame.

Lucario. His aura extended attacks are difficult for Yoshi to get past and his quick rolls give him a defensive advantage. As with DK, Yoshi has his down air to punish Lucario's poor recovery but with Lucario's stalling down air and wall cling this becomes much less of an issue. In the air, Lucario wins. Hell, on the ground he still wins.

Mario's fireballs halt Yoshi's attacks fairly well, his cape ***** Yoshi, and his forward smash (which is relatively easier to hit with than any of Yoshi's smashes) sends Yoshi off at a perfect edge guarding (a la cape) angle.


Yoshi can be ok at edge guarding and his tilts have some deceptively good range to them but overall, at least as far as I and (it would seem) most other players can see, he just doesn't have much in terms of advantages. He doesn't really have anything that everybody else doesn't.

i dont c how bowser has an advantage over sonic, especially since they r both on opposite ends of character speeds with bowser being on the lower.

iv checked the bowser and sonic threads u provided and the sonic one even says that sonic has the advantage over bowser.

well either way, i really shouldnt be trying to take away from one of the two character advantages that bowser has.

You know what, I agree. When I changed that it was because I've gradually learned that camping hardcore with Bowser works wonders against characters without projectiles. It's, like, Bowser dosen't attack, he counter-attacks. Against most characters it isn't too bad but Sonic just seemed to be much easier to punish since Fortress > any of Sonic's attacks as well as how a lot of Sonic players are very aggressive, something that camper Bowser works well against. However, now that I think about it some more I'm remembering Sonic's easier time edgeguarding/gimping Bowser as well as having a lightning quick punishing game of his own. I'll change that back as soon I work on it again.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I might have missed some big argument on here about Falcon vs Sonic, but why has it changed from advantage Sonic to a disputed? I mean, that Falcon's worst match-ups thread even has Sonic on it...

 

[Meta Dude]

Yet everybody else seems to agree that he's at a disadvantage against just about everybody. As for the three characters you named:

Donkey Kong's overall longer range, about equal attack speed, and much better KO options give him a large edge against the dinosaur. Yoshi's edge guarding abilities may be pretty good but who do you think goes flying off the stage more often in this match-up? Donkey Kong is heavier and has an easier time approaching Yoshi than the other way around. There's absolutely nothing that Yoshi has that Donkey Kong can't easily defend himself from which is then followed by him punching Yoshi's brains in. The only advantage Yoshi has here is his painful down air on Donkey Kong's large frame.

Lucario. His aura extended attacks are difficult for Yoshi to get past and his quick rolls give him a defensive advantage. As with DK, Yoshi has his down air to punish Lucario's poor recovery but with Lucario's stalling down air and wall cling this becomes much less of an issue. In the air, Lucario wins. Hell, on the ground he still wins.

Mario's fireballs halt Yoshi's attacks fairly well, his cape ***** Yoshi, and his forward smash (which is relatively easier to hit with than any of Yoshi's smashes) sends Yoshi off at a perfect edge guarding (a la cape) angle.


Yoshi can be ok at edge guarding and his tilts have some deceptively good range to them but overall, at least as far as I and (it would seem) most other players can see, he just doesn't have much in terms of advantages. He doesn't really have anything that everybody else doesn't.

you glossed over things pretty quickly there, leaving a lot of things out. this is what i believe yoshi has over DK:
-He's faster run speed and attacks. just faster overrall. i don't know what makes you think they have similiar attack speed.
-DK gets beat in the air for sure. short hop bair for the win.
- when it comes to ground game, it's probably neutral and very user dependent. yoshi's ground game has only been buffed.
- he has a projectile in egg tosses.
- dash grab.

my friend plays a good lucario, i've never had any problems with him. funny you say he wins on both air and ground, i couldn't disagree more.

only a horrible yoshi player is gonna get ***** by mario's fireballs. bair owns mario (as it does a lot of characters), i don't see mario beating him in the air. and you obviously know nothing about yoshi's smashes.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0nv9i-tLLjQ
(not trying to say yoshi owns mario, just trying to make a point)

you presume an awful lot in your comparisons about a character that you don't know a lot about (this is pretty clear in your rationale). that's ok, lots of people don't know a lot about him, but don't make assumptions. if you're going to say that one character has an advantage over another, there has to be CLEAR evidence of such (for instance, meta knights ridiculous priority over yoshi in the air makes it pretty difficult. therefore advantage mk). you're looking over things way too quickly. we all do, it was initially thought that pikachu>yoshi, but when yoshi approaches pika differently (from the ground) this changes things dramatically.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I don't understand how Diddy has any advantage over Kirby.
- A good Kirby should be spending a lot of time in the air, so Diddy's banana tricks are basically worthless.
- Kirby can pretty easily gimp Diddy's recovery, expecially since you have to charge up his up-B and Kirby can just spike or stone him. This is especially valuable with Kirby's bair wall of pain that will push Diddy, who has no way of fighting back, to the edge of the screen and beyond.
- Diddy's projectile is kind of pointless even against Kirby, who has no projectile, due to its need to be charged up (plus Kirby can duck underneath it).