Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Browny]

diddys projectile is useless versus everyone

 

[Dynamism?]

lol
IvanEva, I love the idea of the thread and the chart is really well designed but taking the match ups from the SWF character specific threads is like putting the names in a biased box and seeing if anyone makes a spelling mistake for a -
Like look at Marth omg haha. Advantage over everyone why doesn't he? lol

Yoshi beats Lucario, Marth, Mario and many more. DK and Pika beat Yoshi though, that much is right.
Pika beats Olimar too. And there's plenty wrong with the other characters.

Kirby SLAUGHTERS Diddy.

Sonic>Bowser yeah.


Don't say 1 beats 2 if 1 is the one saying it lol
That's all I have to say. I'll make my own match up chart. I personally believe I'm the unbiased player around considering I use everyone and play everyone a LOT. (like my little twist in words there?) I'm just that good

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser has the advantage against Sonic.

Basically it's for similar reasons he's better than Captain Falcon, except that Sonic has a minor advantage in attack speed, but he suffers more in priority.

Bowser wins in:
Range
Priority
Kill options
Approach
Defensive game
Grab range (Klaw included)
Survivability

Basically Bowser is going to live FOREVER against Sonic, whereas he'll stomp Sonic like a bug because he's so much stronger. He can be fairly tough to hit because he can stay in the air for a really long time with Claw Hopping. Sonic doesn't move nearly as effectively in the air as he does on ground. Do I need to mention priority? Sonic's priority is a joke against Bowser. Bowser's F-tilt beats everything Sonic has. Also Bowser can stop almost all of Sonic's approaches with Firebreath.

Bowser really isn't that slow. He runs as fast as Mario, and he has his share of fast attacks. There are many characters that are probably slower than Bowser in Brawl.

 

[1HKO]

Listen, why are all of you so wrapped up in this! Seriously I play Jiggs and disagree with half the match ups but I don't really care because a tier list will come out and THEN we can start stuff like this. *Sorry if I offended anyone who put time and effort into this*

 

[Emblem Lord]

Did someone seriously say Yoshi beats Marth?

LOL.

Yoshi beats like 2 or 3 characters at best and only the ones that suck.

Also Ivan hasn't updated this thread cuz if he had then it would show that Marth has about 2 or 3 matches where he is at disadvantage.

Also Bowser doesn't lose to Sonic.

Hardly anyone loses to Sonic. Same as Yoshi.

Why?

Cuz they suck.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Hasn't Sonic won a couple of tourneys in the US already though?

 

[Browny]

excuse me, this thread is no place for actual real world results and facts.
this is reserved for extremely biased opinions on everyones mains and forcing their opinions onto the OP.

in case you cant tell i wasnt being sarcastic.

GJ to the OP though, this thread would be fantastic, if only we had a lot more actual data, let alone time playing brawl to perfect this stuff. at this stage its nothing but stat comparisons and speculations. every single argument can be countered by 'youve obviously never played a good xxxx then'. which indeed holds true, since NO ONE here has mastered anyone

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hasn't Sonic won a couple of tourneys in the US already though?

Well yeah, you can't deny that. You have to consider that people do occasionally do really well in tournaments with low tiers. Everyone knows Gimpyfish lol.

But no, Sonic srsly, doesn't have many good matchups. And Bowser definitely isn't favorable for Sonic.

 

[DstyCube]

/looks at Yoshi.

I like them odds.

 

[QuestionMark]

im impressed. is this the beginning of another tier list. if its not its a good foundation. my only problem with the thing is that meta knight has a disadvantage at almost everybody. it doest matter though. i still **** everyone with him. good job

 

[Illussionary]

Did someone seriously say Yoshi beats Marth?

LOL.

Yoshi beats like 2 or 3 characters at best and only the ones that suck.

Also Ivan hasn't updated this thread cuz if he had then it would show that Marth has about 2 or 3 matches where he is at disadvantage.

Also Bowser doesn't lose to Sonic.

Hardly anyone loses to Sonic. Same as Yoshi.

Why?

Cuz they suck.

You suck. We all suck. Yoshi and Sonic do not suck. Its just not the same fair spamming Marth users do all day ^^.

 

[smasher91613]

im impressed. is this the beginning of another tier list. if its not its a good foundation. my only problem with the thing is that meta knight has a disadvantage at almost everybody. it doest matter though. i still **** everyone with him. good job

?? MK only has 3 disadvantages

 

[A2ZOMG]

You suck. We all suck. Yoshi and Sonic do not suck. Its just not the same fair spamming Marth users do all day ^^.

Where did you get that idea? The pros really have been studying this game thoroughly y'know.

Now I dunno about Yoshi, but Sonic definitely sucks. In case you forgot, no priority + bad kill options = fail.

 

[User33]

Dedede has a good matchup against Snake, not the other way around. Dedede doesn't get knocked around as easily, he outranges Snake, he can get through his traps and spam, and he has generally good attacks and can chainthrow

 

[Illussionary]

Where did you get that idea? The pros really have been studying this game thoroughly y'know.

Now I dunno about Yoshi, but Sonic definitely sucks. In case you forgot, no priority + bad kill options = fail.

Yes no priority and no kill moves is a problem. But priority is overcome with unpredictability and timing. Also Sonic doesn't need kill moves since he has gimps.

 

[KMB23]

Yes no priority and no kill moves is a problem. But priority is overcome with unpredictability and timing. Also Sonic doesn't need kill moves since he has gimps.

Sonic sucks. His gimps suck.

 

[KMB23]

Oh and by the way, this chart is terrible. let the people in the back room make a good one.

 

[Illussionary]

Oh and by the way, this chart is terrible. let the people in the back room make a good one.

This I agree with, too bad we'll have to wait 35 weeks ^^.

 

[KMB23]

This I agree with, too bad we'll have to wait 35 weeks ^^.

****.. well that sucks.

 

[IvanEva]

i can tell you ganondorf almost always has an advantage over captain falcon.
ganondorf and bowser are roughly equal.

Why/how does he have an advantage? You'll have to elaborate.

Roughly, but not completely. Bowser has the advantage. Fire Breath holds Ganondorf back better than anybody else.

I wouldnt follow this chart too religously...

but if it helps, I play as MK and my two hardest matchups are snake and wolf

Wolf, eh? Anybody else having Metaknight trouble against Wolf? I play/play against neither so I can't really comment. Somebody stated that Wolf has an advantage although I can't remember why. Can anybody shed some light on who has an advantage between Wolf and Meta?

how did u come up with this by the way?

I'm not terribly sure. I like charts. I loved the old Pokemon one from back in the day - this chart derives heavily from it. While Phanna's Melee chart is pretty neat, I found it a bit too overwhelming and colourful for me. I don't really care too much about tiers but about match-ups (although they are related). Of course, it could just be that I was trying to find an "official" excuse to explain away how my brother (equal skill) kept beating my Lucas with his Game and Watch.

I might have missed some big argument on here about Falcon vs Sonic, but why has it changed from advantage Sonic to a disputed? I mean, that Falcon's worst match-ups thread even has Sonic on it...

No clue. Sometimes I'm a bit mindless in just taking in what anybody has to say and plopping it into the chart. I can't think of a single thing (apart from sheer manliness) that Falcon has on Sonic. I'll change that to Sonic's advantage.

-He's faster run speed and attacks. just faster overrall. i don't know what makes you think they have similiar attack speed.
-DK gets beat in the air for sure. short hop bair for the win.
- when it comes to ground game, it's probably neutral and very user dependent. yoshi's ground game has only been buffed.
- he has a projectile in egg tosses.
- dash grab.

my friend plays a good lucario, i've never had any problems with him. funny you say he wins on both air and ground, i couldn't disagree more.

only a horrible yoshi player is gonna get ***** by mario's fireballs. bair owns mario (as it does a lot of characters), i don't see mario beating him in the air. and you obviously know nothing about yoshi's smashes.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0nv9i-tLLjQ
(not trying to say yoshi owns mario, just trying to make a point)

pikachu>yoshi, but when yoshi approaches pika differently (from the ground) this changes things dramatically.

Donkey Kong's down tilts and jabs are long and come out quickly. It's their speed plus their range that makes them almost as fast as Yoshi's. It's like how Roy's forward Smash seemed so much slower than Marth's since Roy's hits in the middle (that's probably a bad example but...). Distance traveled makes an attack "faster". Is Yoshi faster overall? Yes. However, it's really not by much.

Short hop back air is pretty good. Of course, so is short hop back a- GIANT PUNCH!!! In the actual air, yes, Yoshi's back air is good against DK. Should his back not be turned however, as is most likely the case, DK's aerials, especially neutral air, generally beat Yoshi's in range, priority, damage and knockback (although Yoshi's neutral air can be pretty easy to hit with). Of note as well is that DK's back air is overall much better than Yoshi's. It's easier to hit with, does more damage generally and has better knockback. Yoshi's back air doesn't 'own' everybody. DK's does.

DK's ground game is slightly better than Yoshi's in part because DK has much more options and they're almost always longer ranged. I'm thinking of his tilts (although Yoshi's forward tilt is pretty good) and specials.

DK makes for a nice fat egg toss target, yes. However, that's one of the only things Yoshi has on him. It could just be me but I find the eggs to be very easy to shield/airdodge. They're certainly not spammable. They're not enough to give Yoshi the advantage.

DK has a dash grab as well. While not quite as long (sort of, his grab range is pretty good) it's faster and he doesn't get his brains punched in when he misses.

Most of Lucario's aerials beat out Yoshi's due to his aura hit boxes. The only exception is back airs in which Yoshi's back air beat's Lucario's. Lucario's is faster and he's much easier to space with so it's still in Lucario's favor. Yoshi's up air is a solid killer but it gets completely stuffed by Lucario's down air. On the ground it's much closer but Lucario's aura gives him the priority edge he needs against Yoshi. I'm probably making it sound like Lucario completely shuts Yoshi down, which he doesn't, but he does have the advantage in this match. At least until you post good arguments otherwise. What advantages does Yoshi have on Lucario? Perhaps your friend just isn't as good with his Lucario as you are with your Yoshi.

Mario's fireballs don't **** Yoshi, they hurt him, stop him in his tracks, and gives Mario an edge that Yoshi has to be aware of. In short, they do what projectiles are supposed to do to the opponent, something that Yoshi's don't really do to Mario due to their lack of speed, obviousness, and the time it takes for Yoshi to recover from throwing them. Mario's fireballs are something that he should throw whenever there's enough room to.

Mario's cape on the other hand... There was a point in that video where Mario back airs Yoshi instead of caping him. That was wrong. He would have won if he knew how much Yoshi loved being caped. He also got hit by Yoshi's egg roll from one end of the stage to the other. Twice. That Mario seemed like he wasn't used to fighting a Yoshi. I know Yoshi's smashes well. His smashes are basically Mario's. No advantage for either character when it comes to smashes (although Mario's fireballs can interrupt Yoshi). Yoshi out ranges Mario on his tilts and down smash but that's counter balanced by Mario's fireballs. Staying at a range where Yoshi can hit but Mario can't is overly difficult.

I'm not saying that any of these characters TOTALLY ANNIHILATE Yoshi, just that they have more advantages over Yoshi than Yoshi has on them. In your opinion, would you have the chart saying that those three are neutral or that Yoshi has an advantage over them?

I don't understand how Diddy has any advantage over Kirby.
- A good Kirby should be spending a lot of time in the air, so Diddy's banana tricks are basically worthless.
- Kirby can pretty easily gimp Diddy's recovery, expecially since you have to charge up his up-B and Kirby can just spike or stone him. This is especially valuable with Kirby's bair wall of pain that will push Diddy, who has no way of fighting back, to the edge of the screen and beyond.
- Diddy's projectile is kind of pointless even against Kirby, who has no projectile, due to its need to be charged up (plus Kirby can duck underneath it).

Sounds pretty solid. I'll change it tonight then.

Yoshi beats Lucario, Marth...

Please back these up with at least some arguments as to why Yoshi "beats" ("has an advantage over" is actually what you're looking for) these characters. I'm especially eager to read what you post about Yoshi > Marth. Those arguments better be more solid than Snake...

Listen, why are all of you so wrapped up in this! Seriously I play Jiggs and disagree with half the match ups but I don't really care because a tier list will come out and THEN we can start stuff like this. *Sorry if I offended anyone who put time and effort into this*

Tier lists don't state match-ups. They're different. Related, but still very much different. If you're going to post, at least post which match-ups you disagree with and why. Perhaps we can all learn something from what you know about Jigglypuff. Likewise, perhaps we can convince you that you're wrong. Either way, it's to the benefit of all that you post what you know about certain Jigglypuff match-ups, especially since she's not very popular.

Did someone seriously say Yoshi beats Marth?

Yoshi beats like 2 or 3 characters at best and only the ones that suck.

Also Ivan hasn't updated this thread cuz if he had then it would show that Marth has about 2 or 3 matches where he is at disadvantage.

Also Bowser doesn't lose to Sonic.

I'm guessing you're thinking of Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and... Jigglypuff?

I did update it with the Marth disadvantages...

I'll put Bowser/Sonic as debated. I myself keep seeing it go both ways.

Hasn't Sonic won a couple of tourneys in the US already though?

That would affect tiers more than match-ups. Match-ups are concerned with WHO Sonic beat. During those tournaments, did Sonic have a much harder time beating X than Y? Perhaps X has an advantage over Sonic but the Sonic player was overall much better. Was everybody player Y, who has a disadvantage against Sonic?

im impressed. is this the beginning of another tier list. if its not its a good foundation. my only problem with the thing is that meta knight has a disadvantage at almost everybody. it doest matter though. i still **** everyone with him. good job

Huh!? Metaknight at a disadvantage against almost everybody!? Err...
You're ****** them for a reason...

You suck. We all suck. Yoshi and Sonic do not suck. Its just not the same fair spamming Marth users do all day ^^.

A common view of things... a month or so ago. If you still believe that you haven't been playing enough.

Marth can do much more than just forward air. If Yoshi and Sonic have to work their ***** off while Marth can just bat them away with forward air than, compared to Marth, they suck (which I don't like saying since the difference between the "good" and "bad" characters aren't as pronounced this time around).

Sonic sucks. His gimps suck.

His gimps are pretty good. He has an easy time getting back to the stage and thus he can fight around in the air longer than a lot of other characters.

Oh and by the way, this chart is terrible. let the people in the back room make a good one.

What's terrible about it? Which match-ups do you disagree with?

Also, if you're content in having other people come up with everything for you than I think it's safe to assume that you yourself aren't interested in actually getting good at the game. Just a guess here: you don't play to win, just to have fun?

 

[Kashakunaki]

Give the guy a break. At least he is making an effort unlike most of you.

 

[Ants]

my only problem with the thing is that meta knight has a disadvantage at almost everybody. it doest matter though. i still **** everyone with him. good job

way to read the chart wrong

its left side has an "advantage/disadvantage/neutral" over top side, MKs got 27 favourable match-ups (according to this current chart)

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I will try to help out with zelda (i co main her) these are things i read

MK:i think its about even i've been able to beet the ones i've played and on the mk board they say zelda can give him trouble but his speed can give zelda a problem as well so i say it about an even mathup

Ness: ness seems to have the advantage on zelda i have not played many nesses myself but he is one of the tuff machtups i read about on the zelda boards

Olimar: He is another i've not played much but i have read he is trouble for zelda but can't say for sure

R.O.B: I give zelda this one since i have never had trouble against one myself and oddly i have played many R.O.B so in my eyes zelda has the advantage here

Snake: i would give it to zelda b/c when i first picked up zelda it was to beat a annoying Sanke and it worked i won 2out 3 on my first try against this snake. Snake has trouble recovering against a good zelda it seems to me b/c of zeldas upair and dins fire. Plus snakes grenades were usless as was his controlled rockests b/c of zeldas neutral B. What snake had was his mines witch i was able to get around His i think its called mortar slide (i never play as snake) that gave me trouble but as the match went on i was able to dogde it more and punish him for doing it, and his tilts and neutral A combo which hurt do to zeldas weight but over all i think zeldas got this one

Toon Link: I think zelda has a slight advantage over toon Link she is one who people on the toon link board says give toon link trouble and i have not had problems beating the toon links i have played

This is all opinion based on ether things i have read or my own personal experiences the ones i read might be more accurate since its from more peoples experiences i might be wrong about snake since that is only based on my own matches against snake and sorry i could not say what i thought for all the unfilled spaces I hope this helps
And if you disagree dont flame me just state your case since this is by no means a perfect agrument.

 

[Illussionary]

Yeah sorry, this chart has actually been great help to me, i'm just unsure of its accuracy since its so early in the meta-game.

 

[KaShank]

Awesome job. If I may make one request, possibly making a tier list from this. Where good match up =1 point, neutral =0, and bad =-1

 

[KaShank]

Alright, I went ahead and did what I was asking.
Where advantage=+1 neutral/disputed=+0 and disadvantage=-1

Meta Knight: 24
Falco/Toon Link: 21
Marth/Mr. Game & Watch: 20
Snake: 18
Wolf: 17
R.O.B.: 16
Pikman and Olimar: 13
Pit: 11
Ice Climbers: 9
Zelda: 8
Ness: 7
Wario/Pikachu/Zero Suit Samus: 6
Lucario/Diddy Kong: 5
Lucas: 4
Kirby: 2
Sheik: 0
Fox/Link: -5
Ivysaur/Squirtle: -7
King Dedede/Mario: -8
Donkey Kong: -9
Luigi: -10
Samus: -12
Charizard/Sonic: -13
Peach: -14
Ike: -15
Jigglypuff: -20
Ganadorf: -21
Yoshi/Bowser: -24
Captain Falcon: -28

Alright this is NOT a tier list based upon the match up chart. It is simply a different representation of the data. So from this point of view my first reaction is that Ike probably shouldn't have a -15.
Keep in mind
A. This character match up chart solely based off of opinion from an uncredited source.
B. Most of the chart is not even fully completed or disputed therefore throwing off this data even farther.
C. As long as we are critiquing we are making progress so THAT IS THIS IS BEING DONE.

 

[Illussionary]

Awesome job. If I may make one request, possibly making a tier list from this. Where good match up =1 point, neutral =0, and bad =-1

THis is a good idea.

 

[IvanEva]

Alright, I went ahead and did what I was asking.
Where advantage=+1 neutral/disputed=+0 and disadvantage=-1

Heh, that's pretty neat. It turned out fairly similar to some tier lists. I seriously didn't expect it to (except for Meta and Marth).

 

[HellToupee]

I think you gave Meta Knight too many unfavorable marks. He has and advantage over everyone but the characters that are as heavey as snake or heavier. He just outright wins most priority battles and his killing potential is not as bad as people say except vs the heavies. Ike is his worst matchup.

I disagree for the most part, but having him marked as disadvantaged against Sheik is ridiculous.

 

[Dynamism?]

this is reserved for extremely biased opinions on everyones mains and forcing their opinions onto the OP.

in case you cant tell i wasnt being sarcastic.

GJ to the OP though, this thread would be fantastic, if only we had a lot more actual data, let alone time playing brawl to perfect this stuff. at this stage its nothing but stat comparisons and speculations. every single argument can be countered by 'youve obviously never played a good xxxx then'. which indeed holds true, since NO ONE here has mastered anyone

lol yay!
I agree. And the tier list concept is funny. Kind of cool how that works. But considering the tier list is so far off, and the match ups are so far off...I'd like to see this in a few months and THEN it will be cool

 

[Kiwikomix]

Here I am defending Kirby again...

I was looking at this chart and I noticed that Mario vs. Kirby is "disputed". So here's a list of why Kirby ***** Mario despite all his capey goodness.

- To start, Mario's range is so pitiful that if Kirby were to run up to him and just press b, few attacks would be able to touch him.
- Like Diddy, Mario's projectile isn't speedy enough to catch Kirby jumping over it... and this works a lot better for Kirby than for most other characters, since he has a lot of jumps.
- That cape doesn't even reflect attacks completely anymore. If Kirby hammers a Mario in the face, and Mario capes it, both characters will still take damage.
- Mario cannot recover. He even lost that small bonus granted to him by the Mario Tornado. So for Kirby, that means it's time to just push him off the edge, spike, WOP, whatever. Other characters that excel at this include Jiggz, ROB, MK, and Pit, so it's not like this is a Kirby-exclusive technique, but whatever.
- Mario's f-smash has been laggified. He takes a dramatic step forward while punching now, which gives every dodger a good chance for more time to react. Kirby, in particular, has a very short dodge that involves him just rotating in a circle. While characters with an extended f-smash (G-Dub, Ike, etc.) can deal with this dodge a lot better, Mario suffers because that fireball thing just doesn't stay out that long.
- Kirby wearing Mario's hat cancels Mario's projectile, just in case he can't jump over it. And I'm not for certain on this one, but can't Kirby's jab cancel it anyway?
- Mario's FLUDD, already useless, does nothing on Kirby's recovery.
- Kirby's light weight, while terrible against strong characters, is canceled by Mario's inability to KO.
- Finally, Mario got terribly nerfed in Brawl. Kirby got buffed. The end.

Sorry for the wall of text by the way, I'm just trying to make a good argument.

 

[User33]

A lot of these matchups are just flat out wrong (Snake vs. DDD for example), so I don't see a point in having this.

 

[IvanEva]

Here I am defending Kirby again...

I was looking at this chart and I noticed that Mario vs. Kirby is "disputed". So here's a list of why Kirby ***** Mario despite all his capey goodness.

- To start, Mario's range is so pitiful that if Kirby were to run up to him and just press b, few attacks would be able to touch him.
- Like Diddy, Mario's projectile isn't speedy enough to catch Kirby jumping over it... and this works a lot better for Kirby than for most other characters, since he has a lot of jumps.
- That cape doesn't even reflect attacks completely anymore. If Kirby hammers a Mario in the face, and Mario capes it, both characters will still take damage.
- Mario cannot recover. He even lost that small bonus granted to him by the Mario Tornado. So for Kirby, that means it's time to just push him off the edge, spike, WOP, whatever. Other characters that excel at this include Jiggz, ROB, MK, and Pit, so it's not like this is a Kirby-exclusive technique, but whatever.
- Mario's f-smash has been laggified. He takes a dramatic step forward while punching now, which gives every dodger a good chance for more time to react. Kirby, in particular, has a very short dodge that involves him just rotating in a circle. While characters with an extended f-smash (G-Dub, Ike, etc.) can deal with this dodge a lot better, Mario suffers because that fireball thing just doesn't stay out that long.
- Kirby wearing Mario's hat cancels Mario's projectile, just in case he can't jump over it. And I'm not for certain on this one, but can't Kirby's jab cancel it anyway?
- Mario's FLUDD, already useless, does nothing on Kirby's recovery.
- Kirby's light weight, while terrible against strong characters, is canceled by Mario's inability to KO.
- Finally, Mario got terribly nerfed in Brawl. Kirby got buffed. The end.

Sorry for the wall of text by the way, I'm just trying to make a good argument.

Mario can KO fine from what I've seen. His up and forward smashes aren't the best but they usually get the job done...

That being said, you've totally convinced me. I'll definitely change it in the next update (which, thanks to final projects, won't be tonight).

A lot of these matchups are just flat out wrong (Snake vs. DDD for example), so I don't see a point in having this.

I really hate posts like these. They really don't help. I'm all for disagreeing with the chart and saying that it's all wrong and such PROVIDED that you put a bit more information into the post. Like, you say that 'a lot' of the match-ups are wrong but you only name ONE that you disagree with. If it's a lot I'm sure you can name several. The chart can't improve if you don't help out by sharing what you know. It's like how so many people complain that Bowser has too many disadvantages, or that Marth has too many advantages, yet that's about as specific as they can get.

As for the one example you provided... well... you didn't state WHY you disagreed with it. Why do you believe that Snake doesn't have an advantage over Dedede? Dedede, being as large as he is, is highly succeptable to Snake's explosives. While Snake can be chaingrabbed, it's not a large enough advantage to give it to Dedede overall. Snake's dash into up smash is also very effective against Dedede.

If you can do what that Kirby/Mario guy just did and state your points I'll be happy to change it. More than that, you'll be helping everybody else out by bringing to light some things that people, myself included, may not know.

 

[TheSpindoctor]

this is a great project, but why is it that captain falcon has a disadvantage over pretty much every other character?

 

[KaShank]

Yeah, I tried to do something similar to this once and even posted that baseless claims will be ignored, which didn't help one bit in people making them.

Here is some evidence to the affirmative:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NUef-cVLVD4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=abyBpgcoxDc
Two very skilled players and the snake easily takes control of the field both times.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Very Nice list, I'm using it as a basis to judge matchups off for my Tier list.


All I'd say is just fill it out, and let the debates on who has the ups on who slowly fill it out...

 

[cHooKay]

Here I am defending Kirby again...

I was looking at this chart and I noticed that Mario vs. Kirby is "disputed". So here's a list of why Kirby ***** Mario despite all his capey goodness.

- To start, Mario's range is so pitiful that if Kirby were to run up to him and just press b, few attacks would be able to touch him.
- Like Diddy, Mario's projectile isn't speedy enough to catch Kirby jumping over it... and this works a lot better for Kirby than for most other characters, since he has a lot of jumps.
- That cape doesn't even reflect attacks completely anymore. If Kirby hammers a Mario in the face, and Mario capes it, both characters will still take damage.
- Mario cannot recover. He even lost that small bonus granted to him by the Mario Tornado. So for Kirby, that means it's time to just push him off the edge, spike, WOP, whatever. Other characters that excel at this include Jiggz, ROB, MK, and Pit, so it's not like this is a Kirby-exclusive technique, but whatever.
- Mario's f-smash has been laggified. He takes a dramatic step forward while punching now, which gives every dodger a good chance for more time to react. Kirby, in particular, has a very short dodge that involves him just rotating in a circle. While characters with an extended f-smash (G-Dub, Ike, etc.) can deal with this dodge a lot better, Mario suffers because that fireball thing just doesn't stay out that long.
- Kirby wearing Mario's hat cancels Mario's projectile, just in case he can't jump over it. And I'm not for certain on this one, but can't Kirby's jab cancel it anyway?
- Mario's FLUDD, already useless, does nothing on Kirby's recovery.
- Kirby's light weight, while terrible against strong characters, is canceled by Mario's inability to KO.
- Finally, Mario got terribly nerfed in Brawl. Kirby got buffed. The end.

Sorry for the wall of text by the way, I'm just trying to make a good argument.

This gets a big fat WTF in the history of WTF....
First off Mario is one of the most improved characters that transitioned from melee. Every pro mario player in the smash community in general agrees that mario is generally better than mario/doc from melee. Pretty much sakurai made mario extremely versatile to fight within any type of situation within brawl. I have no idea where you got all this bs from , but come on man, seriously, be more realistic. As a competitive smash player, mario being my main, I really don't have any problems beating the crap out of the pink bubble gum puff kirby. In fact, I've never lost to a kirby mainer yet. Let me start this off by countering every single remark you've made to prove my point.

-Neutral b for kirby lets him inhale in one short limited direction, any character can shoot a projectile, roll away, jump over it, etc. Mario is no exception, kirby can't eat fireballs, especially when the fireballs are shffl's and DI'd backwards.
-Kirby's jumps are slow, nothing like diddy's hops. I have no problem blasting the puff with fireballs, let alone marios fair off the cliff. Kirby practically asked to be slammed by a meteor or blasted by projectiles, and kirby is nowhere fast enough to dodge either of them for the majority of the of the time.
-A noob mario mainer that deflects kirby's hammer would have improper timing, thus, taking damage within the process. Any good or great mario mainer would be able to time kirby's hammer or any other attack without taking damage, its pretty easy especially with mario's new cape tech the ACE (on the ground it extends the range of mario's cape). And the scenario you've described is senseless, if mario is hit before he capes of course he's going to take damage. Learn how to describe scenarios better bro...
-The mario tornado in melee wasn't even that great in melee, even as a recovery move. Its not that greatly miss. The new mario tornado acts as an air escape, and can enable mario to be more nimble in air, it even grants more more lift in the air. As for marios recovery, its not great, but its not bad either, especially you cape first, use your second jump next, and last use mario's upB. Even FLUDD can be used to recover. As a good mario mainer, I rarely have any problem recovering from most situations...
-Mario's F-smash is almost the same as how it was in melee, except now it doesn't require much of a sweet spot anymore to knockback opponents. On its sweet spot, foes fly. Mario can pivot this attack, as well as extending this move a full body distance (seconds to ganny's fsmash extensnion). The number of kills I've got from this move is ridiculously high, and its combo potential is high. I don't know where your going with this seriously, do you even see any pro mario vids or something for you to make this claim? Kirby's dogde isn't great, and is no exception towards marios fsmash, he can and will be killed with this move just like any other character.
-Kirby cannot dodge a great fireball spam, you speak as if he's never been pelted by one before. Short hop-DI'd fireballs approaching can actually change the pace and range of the fireballs, thus creating one of the most irritable spammable moves in brawl. And as for kirby copying mario, Mario can either use FLUDD to erradicate kirby's copied mario fireballs, or reflect them back at kirby with his cape. Umm yeah, umm.... WTF dude.
-If you understand FLUDD, you can use it effectively like granting it more pushback by directing it at the tip of a player (normally a headshot). One of the ways you can use FLUDD against kirby is FLUDDing the puff ball on his last jumps, which sets kirby up for an easy meteor smash from mario. Another scenario, Kirby will die if he's blasted by a charged FLUDD while using his upB (cutter) to recover. Enough said..
-Kirby can get KO'd easily by everyone. Mario's can KO, especially since his moves have more knock back and more priority. I've KO'd a kirby with percentages at 20% (death by meteor). Mario can kill a kirby at 80% using either his dsmash, usmash, fsmash, utilt, bair, fair, dair, nair, uair, bthrow, which is plenty of ways to kill someone. Smash logic 101, if your character is a lightweight, you're more prone to getting KO'd even if you DI an attack properly. You typed it yourself, kirby is a lightweight, and mario is no weakling. Your statement would've made sense if your character was someone heavier like ganny, or falco even, but you stated kirby? WTF...
-Finally Mario and Kirby both receive buffs just like most of the veteran fighters, except mario received more. Go to any pro smash tourney and ask them what they think about mario. I think they'll generally contradict most of your theories, your awfully noobish theories....

Dude, seriously, don't lie to the public and contradict yourself, you sound like a complete and total idiot..

 

[imdavid]

Um... just wondering why Meta has an advantage to sheik? His aerials all have higher priority than she does ... it just doesn't make much sense to me... I also don't agree with sheik having a disadvantage to Snake, sheiks needles can interrupt most of his mindgames as well as his nades and mines... snake is just need bait :]

 

[IvanEva]

this is a great project, but why is it that captain falcon has a disadvantage over pretty much every other character?

Nobody has stated, and backed up, a match-up where Captain Falcon is at an advantage. If you're sure of one, post it and the reasoning behind it. No, being ripped and made of 110% sheer manliness isn't an advantage over any of the other characters. Except possibly confused Marth.

Yeah, I tried to do something similar to this once and even posted that baseless claims will be ignored, which didn't help one bit in people making them.

Here is some evidence to the affirmative:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NUef-cVLVD4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=abyBpgcoxDc
Two very skilled players and the snake easily takes control of the field both times.

Now that I'm much more knowledgeable and experienced at Brawl I can generally feel safe ignoring baseless claims (unlike when I started and didn't know much about most characters). Claims backed by explainations and such, however, are a great way for me, and anybody reading this thread, to learn something or see things in a different light.

Those two players in the video seem quite good. The matches themselves were pretty exciting. I think that if they're good players the match won't be a boring camp-fest like far too many threads make them out to be. I'm still eager to hear somebody argue in favor of DDD having an advantage over Snake though (although I personally think that it's an uphill battle).

Very Nice list, I'm using it as a basis to judge matchups off for my Tier list.

All I'd say is just fill it out, and let the debates on who has the ups on who slowly fill it out...

Disclaimer: while this chart is in 'beta' I can't be held responsible for any negativity you get for using it.

No, I'm very much against just randomly filling it out. Too many "incorrect" match-ups make the chart seem inaccurate as a whole.

Um... just wondering why Meta has an advantage to sheik? His aerials all have higher priority than she does ... it just doesn't make much sense to me... I also don't agree with sheik having a disadvantage to Snake, sheiks needles can interrupt most of his mindgames as well as his nades and mines... snake is just need bait :]

Good question. Answer: I have no clue. I'll change it to Meta's advantage if nobody can refute it.

Lastly, to the Mario defending guy: A good (well, mostly) counter. I'm eager to see what the original guy post as a rebuttal. However, I disagree with your statement that Mario's fireballs are "one of the most irritable spammable moves in brawl". They're no where near the irritable level of PK Fire, Falco lasers, Dedede minions, gyro, lasers, grenades, PK thunders, thunderjolts, thunders... I mean, they're certainly good but just not AS good as the aforementioned.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Sonic has a definate advantage over King Dedede

-D3's size and weight actually makes combing him possible. Not to start a combo arguement, just a fact. It's easier to nail consecutive hits on the bigger characters.
-Sonic's Uair can knock D3 ourt of his Up B easily. And if D3 makes the mistake of UpBing too high off the ground when he starts it's an easy KO for Sonic, who's UpB get's him up there with time to spare.
-Sonic is nearly fast enough to run in and hit a dash attack when D3 starts up alot of his smashes.
-Sonic's spindash quickly clears Waddle Dees and Doos out of his way, and the pop on Charge let's him plow throw airborn one's tossed at him.
While D3 definatly has tons of KO potential, if he doesn't manage the blast line Sonic is most assuredly coming back. His recovery is quite insane.


I will say Homing Attack gimps are ponintless since Dedede can multi jump. But enough springs and Fairs can force a D3 into UpBing which leads back up to an earlier point.

That's just my opinion though.

I still want to hear the reasoning for Sonic having an advantage over Link though. I think it's an even match instead.