Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Kasai]

ok,
1. dk is not nearly as easy to gimp as you assume, the only characters that can consistently hit him out of upb are marth, dedede, yoshi (eggs) falco (laser, not an aerial), wolf, ike, pit and olimar. the rest get out ranged and out prioritized by the upb

I'm fairly certain (not 100% because I haven't specifically tested it and don't play against DK enough to have it as common knowledge) that lucario's dair will go through DK's upB. As I have seen so far, it goes through about everything (including snake's "semi super armor" that his upB grants him. If not dair, bair would definitely do the job.

2. don't rely on a stage spike, they can come in high, they can sweetspot the ledge before you hit them, and they can tech the wall. and dk is not going to come in low enough to be stage spiked by lucarios dair

Just stating that stagespikes are common isn't relying on them.

3. i guess he could kill at 60 if he was at 200+, but the likelihood of that is low, especially considering dk kills lucario at low percents, which is my main point that nobody has addressed

The kill at 60% is from pure gimping alone (so lucario can be at any %((The higher %, the lower he can do this at, 60% being when lucario is at 0))). Something as simple as dthrow/bthrowing off the edge followed by two or three fairs followed by a dair... Even without the dair, it could be possible that DK might not make it back due to his lack of vertical recovery.



Edit: I'm turning on brawl right now to test rough KO %s (Without DI but just for general reference).

 

[Browny]

I believe itsbigfoot was referring to DK's downB, Ground Pound, which 'pops' an approaching Sonic into the air. Truth is DK has a lot of options vs Sonic defensively. When Sonic isn't in the air, upB (Spinning Kong, a la SA frames and priority) and downB are a great response to Sonic's ground approach, which is very often. I'm not going to get into detail here, but I will say that matchup is fairly close, although DK still has the slight advantage with the obscene kill power (and gimping DK in this game is much easier said than done).

thing is, sonics side b goes through DK's down b. its sonics highest priority move, and goes through it every time. Im quite sure it would go through f/dtilt too, since it goes through snakes ftilt, why wouldnt it do this. remember it has high priority during the entire hop, and can be cancelled very quickly into a roll dodge, its a very good approach when not abused to become predictable. Sonic can abuse this approach just like G&W can abuse B-air (except of course, this can be shielded, as oppose to turtle eating shields) and dk has no projectile, and is not quick enough to punish it if its shielded. if it isnt shielded, DK is going to take 20-30 damage from the spin dash x2 u-air combo which is unavoidable for someone as large as DK.

sonics dash attack can also go through dk's down b sometimes, seems to be small time frame where sonic can dash right in between the ground pounds.

of course DK KO'ing at 70% remains

 

[Kasai]

For the testing, I just used fsmash for a few reasons (common kill move, easy to constantly sweet spot without needing to control DK etc)


Lucario % DK %
0%
Uncharged 180
Charged 125

50%
Uncharged 145
Charged 95

100%
Uncharged 110
Charged 70

150%
Uncharged 90
Charged 50

200%
Uncharged 80
Charged 40


Now, as we can see, the longest DK is ever going to live will be until 180%...assuming Lucario has 0% and they are both in the middle of final destination. The earliest he will be dying will be at 40%, assuming lucario is at 200% and again in the middle. Both are major extremes that will probably never happen. Looking more realistically, when lucario is at 100% or even at 75(didn't do a reading but estimating) Dk will be dying at around 120ish%, which is extremely possible. Lucario definitely doesn't need to be above 100% in order to kill DK early.

Now on the other side, for DK's killing %'s, I used fsmash, due to it's killing power.

Uncharged 85
Charged 50


A fun fact, Lucario's fsmash has quite a bit more range on it...

Now, it seems that lucario has to be about 85% in order for DK to kill him with an uncharged fsmsash. at that point, DK only needs to be at about 115 in order to be killed by lucario. To me, that doesn't seem like DK has an advantage as big as you were making it out to be, in the area of killing power.

Add lucario's ability to gimp DK, which is much greater than DK's ability to gimp lucario and the matchup is definitely even, or even going in the favor of Lucario.


Just an fyi, all damage %'s were done in increments of 5 with the number shown being the earliest the character died ie if it says 50%, the character didn't die at 45. Thinking like that, any number between 45 and 50 could of been the % that the character actually died at but with all the lucario %'s , I didn't care enough to test it.

Also, while fooling around, I found a few moves that go through DK's upB (or at the least cancel it and both characters take damage/knockback):

fair
dair
bair
nair
uair

yeah, all of lucario's aerials, with dair, bair and uair completely hitting DK without any damage to lucario.

 

[TehBo49]

@ itsthebigfoot:

MK-Heavy characters don't necessarily do well against MK (e.g. Dedede). MK can still kill DK with a dair semi-spike which gets him off the edge & puts him in a difficult position. Tornado also stops DK's bair approach. You considered Wario a disadvantageous matchup for DK. Why? MK has much better options vs DK.

Lucario-See Kasai's post.

Pika-Bowser is the heaviest in the game. Check here if you don't believe me: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546
Uair semi-spikes which puts DK in a bad position. I can also edgehog DK's upb with QAC. Fsmash stops bair & upb recovery. DK is also very easy to juggle around which racks up damage quickly. Thunder also blocks DK's upb & I'm pretty sure thunderjolt knocks him out of it. It's difficult to avoid thunder as your flying above the screen & DI is easy to read & adjust for. I'm not sure what your talking about for usmash. What do you mean it does next to nothing? Anyways, an uncharged usmash kills DK at about 135% so yeah it can kill him fast. Once again, ftilt, fsmash, & charge punch can be punished by a QAC'd aerial.

Snake-But he can still pressure DK with grenades, nikita, etc. This, I think, makes the match even.

Also, did you agree with my post on the ICs or not?

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

isthebigfoot:

it doesn't matter if the DK player uses up b straight away or not, if the Lucario player did the chain grab correctly, then DK will always end up too far below the stage to avoid Dair when he tries to recover.

If you use up b as soon as DK can move, he won't make it because of the lack of vertical distance that move covers. Some part of a second jump is required.

 

[Affinity]

How is this not stickied yet?

 

[Surri-Sama]

How is this not stickied yet?

because ever one who matters knows this is a joke, it wasnt ment to be taken seirously

 

[DMG]

because ever one who matters knows this is a joke, it wasnt ment to be taken seirously

Ok, we all get the fact that this chart isn't very accurate in some areas. We get the fact that no matter how hard we try, it will never be perfect. But at least give the guy thanks for starting a project like this.

If you are not gonna contribute to the chart or at least say something of significance, then why even bother coming here in the first place to bash it or to deflate its value?

On topic: Can anyone explain to me why G&W goes even against Ivysaur? I think G&W would have an advantage at least if not a large one here.

 

[IvanEva]

for example. You have Link vs Snake as a neutral matchup but you have snake vs link as an advantage 1 matchup for snake.

Thank you. Yes, I botched that. Tell me if you spot any more.

On a side note, now that I have everything up and running on my end again I can finally update the chart once more. I'm working on it as I type.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Samus vs Sonic is a big advantage for Sonic.
He gets past her Zair very quickly and her projectiles are nullified by him.

Sonic vs Olimar= neutral (this has been largely agreed by both Sonic and Olimar boards. Sonic can approach Olimar more easily than the rest of the cast who may have issues with Olimar's defensive gameplay. Since Sonic is also very adept at gimping and edge guarding., Olimar will have an issue getting back tothe stage. Even if he does have his second jump Sonic is arguably among the quickest to reach him in that point. Sonic also has various setups that would definitely kill Olimar once he's off the stage. ONe of which is D throw to Fair. He also gets rid of pikmin very easily since all of his attacks surround his body and send the pikmin flying.
He does have ot be wary of grabs and smashes since Sonic is a lightweight as well and he has a lesser ground game to Olimar.

Sonic vs Pit=possibly neutral
pit's arrow game really doesn't cause much of an issue for Sonic. If Pit attempts to lockdown Sonic with arrows its just going to fail miserably every time.
Side B goes through arrows as down the down B.
Soni's Uair also outranges Pit and since Sonic is very adept at placing opponents above him this can cause isues for Pit. Pit does have aerial superiotrity due to his aerials however, on the ground Pit doesn't have as a great an advantage and Sonic can pressure and chase him very easily. Not to mention that he can gimp Pit's recovery attempts and once Pit loses that ^B of his its usually death.
Pit can't approach from the bottom since he could get stage spiked and from above Sonic has his Uair.

Sonic vs DK=small disadvantage for Sonic.
I am more leaning to neutral but DK is capable of controlling the air more efficiently bia his Bair. ON ground DK has his tilts and has incredible range and power.
However Sonic can space more easily than DK and once he gets DK off the stage he can rack up more damage.
Sonic's dash shield grab game cna also cause issues since even though DK's moves may not be laggy, they can still be punished if Sonic remains just outside of DK's range.
It can really go either way and depends on who controls the momentum of the match more efficiently.

sonic vs ZSS=neutral
Sonic really can cause issues for Samus. Her side B which can be used to space can be avoided by Sonic.
Once he gets her off the stage he can cause issues with his spring and Dair and Fair. While she does overprioritize him the hitboxes of her attacks are somewhat narrow for her moves and Sonic has a lesser chance of clashing witrh his attacks.
Especially if he plays defensively.


Sonic vs Ike=advantage for Sonic not a large one, (mainly from videos iI have seen of IOZ facing Ike's and mr 3000 facing Ike as well as personal experience)
Mainly since Ike is murdered by Sonic's ability to space and many of his moves are quite laggy.
Granted Sonic is a light weight so it doesn't take much for Ike to kill him but Sonic's aerial superiority and spacing ability and gimping power places an advantage for sonic though not a large one due to Ike power and range.

Ike vs Fox= bigdisadvantage for Ike.
Fox absolutely crushes Ike.
He outspeeds him and he almost never has toa pproach Ike due to his blaster. He can control spacing very well which also causes Ike issues. Upclose he is a beast and his quick attacks can make it difficult for Ike toreact and limits his options.

His Usmash is fast and still powerful so early kills on Ike will happen.


Ike vs Ganondorf=possibly neutral due tot he arguments presented recently. (I do not know much myself)

Ike vs Luigi=disadvantage
Luigi dominates aerially and on th ground. Projectile means he never has to approach Ike to do damage and if he does he is quick attacks in the air can cause an issue.
While Luigi isn't the best at recovering it can be tough and Ike really has to force Luig
into going offensive
jab to ^B is also a very quick and effective means of killing Ike early.
i
Ike vs Sheik=disadvantage for Ike. (I really don't see Ike doing well agaisnt her due to her needles and very quick attacks Once she gets in close it will be very difficult for Ike to get rid of her with other moves other than his jab.

Ike vs Wario=disadvantage for Ike
I really don't understand why Ike would have an advantage over Wario.
Bike helps with approaching and Wario dominates Ike in the air.

on to Link

Link vs Diddy Kong=disadvantage. Diddy Kong's bananas really cause an isue and his ability to break through defensive games means it wil be tough for Link to win. Not only that but his recovery sucks so Diddy is definitely gonna hurt him bad.

Link vs Ivysaur=Neutral. Ivysaur wil have issues fighting Link because Link can space him quite well. I don't really see much for Ivysaur to have over link though I would like a PT user to discuss this matchup.

Link vs Luigi= Disadvantage for Link
This is not a large disadvantage but a slight one. Mainly since Luigi's attacks come out so quickly and he is adept at getting Link off the edge. his projectile can block the arrows and boo,merang and make it easier for him to approach.
link's bad recovery really does not help him.

Link vs Lucas=disadvantage for Link
PK fire is an effective and fast projectile. Magnet absorbs Link's projectiles and Lucas's ground game is faster and more powerful and his aerial abilities let him link up to situations for a KO which Link can have a tough time doing.
However Link can KO him early and approach very quickly using Zair and DAC.

Link vs Ness=disadvantage
Same reasons as above though not as greatly since Ness isn't as good on ground IMO but is more capable aerially.
Again PK magnet nullifies Link's projectiles

Link vs Pikachu=small disadvantage
Pikachu does have a tough time approaching since his projectiles aren't as good and many of Link's moves can overprioritize him.
However PIkachu is faster and his Dsmash can cause issues since Link is heavy and is harder to DI out of the move than other character.
His thunder can also set things up for an easy edge guard which really hurts link.

Link vs Olimar=Possible neutral? Mainly since Link doesn't need to approach Olimar in order to damage him and his projectile swarm can cause olimar issues.
Also many of Link's aerials auto cancel and could be used as means of approach since they clash with Olimar's usually.

Link vs Toon Link=disadvantage for Link
He;s a faster, better version of Link with a better recovery. His projectiles aren't better but his speed and ability to approach with those projectiles make up for it.
Link vs wario=disadvantage for Link

Not a massive one but a disadvantage for Link. Wario can eat the projectiles and his aerial ability surpassews trhat of Link making edge guarding Link very easy.
HIs Uair can also break Link's Dair so approaching from below is safe as well.

 

[DanGR]

shadow, if you're going to suggest a change in the chart, you need to justify your opinion.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Blargh gimme a moment I plano put down all the matchups first and then the reasoning.
That way I don't lose track.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Changes that need to be made:
Kirby = Falco (Kirby can duck underneath laser spam and reflector, Kirby outperforms Falco in or from the air and easily manages Falco's recovery)
Kirby > Ike (Kirby is in general played cautiously due to the fact that he's so light, so he will usually hang around outside Ike's range and punish his slow moves. If Ike charges up sideB, Kirby inhales and Ike tumbles of the stage)
Kirby = Ness (Kirby outranges him on the ground and in the air. I don't see why this a disadvantage anyway.)
Kirby < ROB (ROB outranges Kirby and does enough damage to make that range matter.)
Kirby > Wolf (Heavy enough to be comboed easily by Kirby up to about 50%, recovery is poor enough to be gimped by dair-footstool)

 

[DanGR]

Blargh gimme a moment I plano put down all the matchups first and then the reasoning.
That way I don't lose track.

ok, just checking.


Edit: Every Link and Olimar main says Olimar>Link if not Olimar>>Link. It's quite clear if you go to any of their forums. Just pay them a visit. Visit their matchup threads too. Olimar outcamps Link, and it's easy to punish him when he kills the pikmen b/c he has aerial and ground superiority.

 

[IvanEva]

Samus vs Sonic is a big advantage for Sonic.
He gets past her Zair very quickly and her projectiles are nullified by him.

Her Zair is as good against Sonic as it is against anybody else. He does have the advantage in that Samus has a hard time landing a kill move on Sonic but it's certainly not a large one. Samus is hard to gimp and heavy. Her ground offense isn't great, which is what Sonic has on her, but finishing her off is difficult.

By the way, I made more changes to the chart along with a list of those and such but then my apartment had a short blackout. I only changed a bit of what I had and I'm too pissed to post a list of them again. I'll try to change what I had again tomorrow.

By the way 2, I'm not convinced on Lucario being even or having an advantage on Marth. I'm just not. The Marth arguments are a bit stronger and even then my experiences against/with both characters tell me that Marth has the upper hand. Sadly, I have not actually fought a really good Lucario yet so my views are a bit biased on that. All the videos I've seen haven't convinced me either. Same with the Sonic/Olimar deal. Olimar's defense is a bit too much for Sonic and I'm not convinced that Sonic has the advantage due to his edgeguarding/gimping. Olimar is just too hard to get there consistantly.

I don't get to play good Lucarios or Sonics so if anybody wants to go a round or two, for the sake of the chart and all that (and just so I can play against some Sonic/Lucario mains) give me a PM and all that. I know, I know, lag and all that. Still, I'm sure I'll learn something from it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Her Zair is as good against Sonic as it is against anybody else.

It isn't because Sonic has the speed on ground to take advantage and approach her. No other character can do the same thing to as well sa Sonic.

He does have the advantage in that Samus has a hard time landing a kill move on Sonic but it's certainly not a large one.

he breaks her projectile game something that she relies heavily upon and his aerials out do hers.
It isn't that Sonic is hard to kill its the fact its hard for Samus not to be killed by Sonic.

Samus is hard to gimp and heavy. Her ground offense isn't great, which is what Sonic has on her, but finishing her off is difficult.

Not at all.The amount of damage he can rack up on her is great making it quite easy to kill her. Her floaty nature make it easier to rpedict her movement as well.
While she is heavy that isn't enough to prevent him from Fair her off the stage.
A B throw, D throw off the stage to a Fair can definitely kill her. If she tries to approach fromt he bottom again she runs into the same issue.
It isn't as if she was Marth whose recovery is much faster and dangerous than Samus.
Or an excellent recovery like Pit or ROB.

By the way 2, I'm not convinced on Lucario being even or having an advantage on Marth. I'm

I don't get to play good Lucarios or Sonics so if anybody wants to go a round or two, for the sake of the chart and all that (and just so I can play against some Sonic/Lucario mains) give me a PM and all that. I know, I know, lag and all that. Still, I'm sure I'll learn something from it.

Of course. I'll PM you.

ok, just checking.


Edit: Every Link and Olimar main says Olimar>Link if not Olimar>>Link. It's quite clear if you go to any of their forums. Just pay them a visit. Visit their matchup threads too. Olimar outcamps Link, and it's easy to punish him when he kills the pikmen b/c he has aerial and ground superiority.

I understand ground superiority but not aerial. Maninly since from my experience Many of Link's moves have as good range as Olimar such as the Fair and Link's Uair can break through Olimar's Dair.
I said its a possibly neutral matchup though I am leaning more to disadvantage. I don't think its a very large disadvantage though.

I haven't had much experience against good Olimar mains.

 

[DanGR]

I understand ground superiority but not aerial. Maninly since from my experience Many of Link's moves have as good range as Olimar such as the Fair and Link's Uair can break through Olimar's Dair.
I said its a possibly neutral matchup though I am leaning more to disadvantage. I don't think its a very large disadvantage though.

I haven't had much experience against good Olimar mains.

Olimar works from his ground up in any matchup, meaning he'll be on the ground most of the fight and rise to the air to combo. Characters with great ground game(speed, quickness, and priority. can you say MK?-his worst matchup IMO) give Olimar trouble b/c he can't get them in the air well enough to rack. He has to rely on fsmashes and other guerrilla tactics much more to space well against them(which isn't that great for comboing anyways) Link on the other hand has an awful ground game versus Olimar specifically b/c he has a very difficult time approaching him. When he doesn't approach successfully, he's most likely get thrown in the air where he is rather weak from below.(he's weak from an angle at least) That's the aerial superiority I'm referring to. His bomb tricks don't work as well b/c of pikmin pressure, and Olimar's range game outcamps Link's. When pikmin are thrown, they stop every midair projectile Link has in its place, making it difficult to work from. Link players somewhat rely on bombs and arrows to mess up their opponent to start combos. Link's bad recovery makes it much easier for Olimar to edgeguard. He usually can't b/c he can't risk falling off the stage and getting gimped. The matchup is very one sided and Link players agree with me for the most part. I'd give it a 3/7 advantage for Olimar.

 

[TehBo49]

I also disagree with some of the Pikachu matchups. Here's what needs to be changed:

Pika < Lucas
Pika only has a small disadvantage here. Yes, thunder heals Lucas by 30% but a good Pikachu won't go around spamming it in this match. PK fire can be power shielded & punished. Lucas's recovery is also easy to guard against once he's off the stage.

Pika = Wolf
Wolf's reflector makes it hard to grab him & his priority is tough to deal with, but once you get inside of him the match is almost as easy as Fox. Wolf's fall speed makes him easy to juggle around & he's very easy to edgeguard.

Pika = Zelda
Her smashes are strong & difficult to pass, but QAC can punish her reflector & goes around Din's. Fsmash also outranges her smashes.

Pika =/> Olimar
Yellow pikmin aren't as bad as they seem. Usmash, nair, & bair are all good at killing yellows (and any color for that matter). Olimar also has no way of dealing with thunderjolt. QAC is a good approach & it's difficult to shieldgrab Pika when he uses d-smash. Overall, I'd say Pika has a slight advantage.

Pika > Falco
Similar to Wolf, once you get next to him it's easy. Pika can hop over lasers or crawl under them. Falco's reflector & chaingrab keep this from being as bad as vs Fox.

Pika > Mario
Mario's cape isn't an issue because thunderjolt can be shorthopped & used to approach. Pika has more priority too. FLUDD has almost no effect on Pika's recovery & Pika can gimp Mario pretty easily.

Pika > Charizard
Yes Charizard can use his tilts to block thunderjolt. But doing so fatigues him, so he has to approach giving Pika an upperhand. Once up close, heavy characters are easy for Pika to juggle around. Gliding can be stopped by thunder.

Pika > Snake
Thunderjolt destroys all of Snake's projectiles & gives Snake himself trouble. Snake is also chaingrabbable & as a heavy character easy to juggle. Thunder destroys Snake's recovery & Snake dies from usmash at about 133%.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Olimar works from his ground up in any matchup, meaning he'll be on the ground most of the fight and rise to the air to combo. Characters with great ground game(speed, quickness, and priority. can you say MK?-his worst matchup IMO) give Olimar trouble b/c he can't get them in the air well enough to rack. He has to rely on fsmashes and other guerrilla tactics much more to space well against them(which isn't that great for comboing anyways) Link on the other hand has an awful ground game versus Olimar specifically b/c he has a very difficult time approaching him.

Well thats what I mean.
Link is rarely if ever ging to approach Olimar. he would rely on his boomerang, arrows and bombs from afar. Use his Zair since it has a good amount of reach and doesn't lag ont he ground.
So he would be capable of attacking from afar and preventing Olimar fromg etting close.

When he doesn't approach successfully, he's most likely get thrown in the air where he is rather weak from below.(he's weak from an angle at least)

Thats a problem though, Link really is the worst character to approach from below because he can drop a bomb to cover his side. Even if he does get hit the bomb will blow up damaging both himself and the opponent and make it easier to get to the ground.
not to say that its impossible to do so but it does provide a reason for Olimar to be cautious if he attacks Link from below.

That's the aerial superiority I'm referring to. His bomb tricks don't work as well b/c of pikmin pressure, and Olimar's range game outcamps Link's. When pikmin are thrown, they stop every midair projectile Link has in its place, making it difficult to work from. Link players somewhat rely on bombs and arrows to mess up their opponent to start combos. Link's bad recovery makes it much easier for Olimar to edgeguard. He usually can't b/c he can't risk falling off the stage and getting gimped. The matchup is very one sided and Link players agree with me for the most part. I'd give it a 3/7 advantage for Olimar.

Hmm okay you convinced me.
I ahve a question though, does the Zair outrange any of Olimar's attacks? I know it cna go through them but im not too sure of the range since i don't use Olimar or face him often so I am not too familiar with the range Olimar has on his projectiles.
also I am not too sure but I believe the bombs explosion could be used to apply pressure since a bomb to arrow cancel is quick and may be capable of getting through the pikmin. I am not too sure since he throws those pikmin mighty quickly.

 

[Vaul]

@IvanEva: I am curious as to why you changed the Samus vs DDD matchup from Samus>DDD to DDD>Samus. Besides the obvious CG, I still believe Samus has got the edge, and will be happy to elaborate if you can somehow find the posts which convinced you to change it. Also, it'd be awesome if you can just glance at my discussion with itsbigfoot a page or so back. I know your probably busy as hell with all this (the project has exploded beyond anything any of us originally anticipated), but this would be awesome and much appreciated.

@ShadowLink: The Samus vs Sonic is a very close matchup, at least to the extent that its too difficult to tell at this moment in time whether one has the universal advantage over the other. Samus's recovery is actually one of the better ones in this game (very close to Sonic in how good it is) and I highly doubt Sonic can always rely on 'gimping' Samus to kill her, which is much much easier said than done. If you want more details please look a page or so back with my discussion with itsbigfoot concerning Samus's projectile and close combat game (I'm too lazy to repost and reword everything right here again). Her air game deserves more credit than what you are giving her (once again, look at the ISJR section a page back, although I know this applys to Sonic partly as well). Basically, arguments for both sides have been legitimate to the extent that it should definitely be considered a neutral matchup as of now (most matchups should probably be neutral anyway, IMO).

@itsbigfoot: Whoa, looks like you've got a lot of reading material up here now haha, sorry man. Take your time with all that sh*t.

 

[DanGR]

Well thats what I mean.
Link is rarely if ever ging to approach Olimar. he would rely on his boomerang, arrows and bombs from afar. Use his Zair since it has a good amount of reach and doesn't lag ont he ground.
So he would be capable of attacking from afar and preventing Olimar fromg etting close.

Olimar's camp game is better. Link had to approach.

Thats a problem though, Link really is the worst character to approach from below because he can drop a bomb to cover his side. Even if he does get hit the bomb will blow up damaging both himself and the opponent and make it easier to get to the ground.
not to say that its impossible to do so but it does provide a reason for Olimar to be cautious if he attacks Link from below.

This is true, but Olimar's disjointed moves and his size make it safer to attack from below than it is for most characters(notably bowser. lol)-if Link had time to pull a bomb, that is.

Hmm okay you convinced me.
I ahve a question though, does the Zair outrange any of Olimar's attacks? I know it cna go through them but im not too sure of the range since i don't use Olimar or face him often so I am not too familiar with the range Olimar has on his projectiles.
also I am not too sure but I believe the bombs explosion could be used to apply pressure since a bomb to arrow cancel is quick and may be capable of getting through the pikmin. I am not too sure since he throws those pikmin mighty quickly.

ok, I guess it's clear then. To answer your question: zair's range is phenomenal, but Olimar's size makes it too hard to aim consistently and rely on it to approach. It's not exactly a matter of "does it have range" or not. Olimar is short and has too many disjointed moves for it too affect him much.

Olimar projectiles when SHed: (which is normal)
-blues and reds can be thrown about 2/3 the length of FD
-white can be thrown over all of FD
-yellows and purples about half

The quickness Olimar can throw them is faster than any other projectile except maybe falco/fox. They're about 1 1/2 times as fast as Wolf's laser spammage. Olimar can throw two in one SH.

They block Link's projectiles and the rest fly past them and latch to his face and chest. Link's projectiles are no match for the pikmin on any level. That's why TL is even more so disadvantaged than Link-his projectiles don't work well in the matchup.

 

[ShadowLink84]

@ShadowLink: The Samus vs Sonic is a very close matchup, at least to the extent that its too difficult to tell at this moment in time whether one has the universal advantage over the other.

No it isn't, there really is no doubt as to Sonic having an advantage over Samus.

Samus's recovery is actually one of the better ones in this game (very close to Sonic in how good it is)

not really.
Samus has to rely on bomb jumping to increase her horizontal movement. in melee it wans't as punishable because not many had a recovery they could use. HOwever now they can, and Sonic has a variety of optins for gimping.

and I highly doubt Sonic can always rely on 'gimping' Samus to kill her, which is much much easier said than done.

Which is why i mentioned SOnic's ability to rack up damage. He'll be able to bring up her damage so that his moves are much more likely to kill or force her into defensive play whre he can place her in a position for a kill move.

If you want more details please look a page or so back with my discussion with itsbigfoot concerning Samus's projectile and close combat game (I'm too lazy to repost and reword everything right here again).

You'll have to since it needs to apply to Sonic.
I know Samus' projectiles but Sonic breaks through ALL of them with his spindashes/charge and Usmash.
both of which are very fast and cover excellent distance (Usmash via DAC)

Her air game deserves more credit than what you are giving her (once again, look at the ISJR section a page back, although I know this applys to Sonic partly as well).

Of course however her aerial game is not as good as Sonic's. Not because of standalone basis but because he can do more with his aerial gme than she can.
Spnshotting increases his aerial speed beyond anything she is capable of and lets him approach her in the air more quickly and easily.
he has several effective ways to place her in the air to rack up damage.
She just cannot compete with him on ground or in the air as well as you think.
Simply because he can approach her quickly and just dominate her.

Basically, arguments for both sides have been legitimate to the extent that it should definitely be considered a neutral matchup as of now (most matchups should probably be neutral anyway, IMO).

Its not neutral.
He shuts down her projectile ganme. Breaks through Zair which few characters are capable of and is capable of gimping and racking up damage for kills on her.
Its a definite advantage for Sonic.
I really don't see as to how she would be capable of preventing Sonic from getting close or how her aerial game could stop his own.


Thanks for the information Dan. ^_^

 

[Kiwikomix]

I also disagree with some of the Pikachu matchups. Here's what needs to be changed:

Pika < Lucas
Pika only has a small disadvantage here. Yes, thunder heals Lucas by 30% but a good Pikachu won't go around spamming it in this match. PK fire can be power shielded & punished. Lucas's recovery is also easy to guard against once he's off the stage.

Not really sure on this one. Lucas does have a tether recovery, so Pikachu will have to guard a large area around the ledge in order to gimp Lucas. In addition, Lucas could just zap jump up to the top of the screen and float back down to the stage, knowing that Pikachu's most viable attack option in this scenario (thunder) won't be used unless, as you said, Pikachu is an idiot and decides to heal Lucas. Pikachu's inability to be gimped isn't reallly that much of a bonus against Lucas, who won't be trying to gimp anyway. Pika will just end up going for Lucas on the ground, since Lucas gives Pikachu a hard time in the air because Pika's air game isn't too great in Brawl (except for QAC, and even that just goes for the ground). Powershielding isn't as easy as you make it seem, otherwise projectiles would be useless... that isn't really a Pika-exclusive matchup trick anyway. This should be Pika < Lucas.

No argument on the rest of these, although I still think it's a stretch for Pika > Snake. If anything it's a slight advantage, I still think it should be equal.

 

[TehBo49]

As I said, I only think Pikachu has a normal disadvantage against Lucas just not a big one.

Most Snake players consider Pika to be one of Snake's toughest matches. Like I said, thunderjolt neutralizes all of his projectiles & Snake has no way to block it. Mortar slide can be stopped by fsmash or dsmash if he tries to approach.

 

[hizzlum]

Question: Why is marth vs shiek a neutral match-up?Marth has better aerials in this game, MUCH more KO power, a recovery equal to that of shiek, marth can edgeguard better than shiek in brawl
Shiek only has better combo ability than marth, someone please I want to know how shiek has a chance in this match-up

 

[TehBo49]

It probably has something to due with the needles. Does Marth have any way of blocking those?

 

[hizzlum]

It probably has something to due with the needles. Does Marth have any way of blocking those?

Sheik can't camp with needles so camping can't happen in this match up.
Marth can use his counter negate them and get a good shot at sheik if he is close enough, his aerials gobble up the first several needles in priority(typically not all of the needles though leading to about 4-10% on marth)
There is always the double jump to just go over,but that may lead to sheik getting combos. I dont think that its just the needles that make this match-up neutral beacuse its not a game winning projectile that marth can block

 

[???????]

Pika > Mario
Mario's cape isn't an issue because thunderjolt can be shorthopped & used to approach. Pika has more priority too. FLUDD has almost no effect on Pika's recovery & Pika can gimp Mario pretty easily.

*F.L.U.D.D. has priority over Pikachu's Thunder Jolt*

*Capedashing neutralizes most camping*

*Mario being an easy character to gimp is somewhat exaggerated (His Up B is gimpable but Mario has a decent amount of offensive options during his recovery)*

*Pikachu has some priority over Mario but not an incredibly significant amount*

*All of Pikachu's recovery can be caped, but is difficult to cape*

*F.L.U.D.D. protects Mario from most aerial approaches*


I can definitely see the match-up in Pikachu's favor but I can also see Mario in control of the match with his defensive game.

 

[TehBo49]

So, are you arguing that it isn't in Pika's favor? I know it's not a huge advantage but I still think it's an advantage.

 

[???????]

I'm not honestly sure, I just don't think we should jump to conclusions quite just yet.

*Mario's match-ups are currently being revised and reorganized at this time*

 

[TehBo49]

Well, regarding your points:

-Fully charged FLUDD can't be spammed as much thunderjolt.
-It still makes him approach which gives me an upper hand.
-I agree with your third point, but it's still gimpable.
-Even a small priority advantage is still notable.
-Maybe forward b, but up b is almost impossible to cape if I'm going for the ledge.
-Pika can QAC over FLUDD & punish Mario.

 

[???????]

I agree, the match-up is close but it would still be tipped in Pikachu's favor because Pikachu's moves are simply less punishable in general.

 

[TehBo49]

So, how does 6/4 Pika sound?

 

[SOVAman]

great thread

 

[???????]

So, how does 6/4 Pika sound?

Sounds accurate.

 

[DanGR]

Question: Why is marth vs shiek a neutral match-up?Marth has better aerials in this game, MUCH more KO power, a recovery equal to that of shiek, marth can edgeguard better than shiek in brawl
Shiek only has better combo ability than marth, someone please I want to know how shiek has a chance in this match-up

It might be the speed from which Sheik can get up close and interrupt his game. Sheik's jumping speed is pretty crazy, and vanish makes an excellent killing move. Her jabs and tilts might also be a problem. Idk though. Try and ask another marth or sheik main about it. They'd tell you. Comparing their moves doesn't do anything for the matchup btw. All that does is tell you which move is better, but not how it's applied to the matchup. Ex.-Olimar's dsmash is arguably better than Zelda's, but her's is much more useful for her altogether.

 

[El Drago]

whoever made this chart obviously hasnt put more than 5 minutes into playing ganon.

Ike has an advantage on ganon? let a lone a big one? come on, thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard, ganon can KO ike guaranteed at 70% and theres nothing he can do about it.

what about how ganon can KO snake at 100% guaranteed, or his advantages over ROB or Dedede?

Its still too early for this crap.

 

[Browny]

oh no...

/me puts a flame shield up for el drago

 

[DanGR]

El drago, you wanna explain this stuff you said instead of flaming its maker that put hours into making this? He doesn't have to use ganon. He goes by what this thread's contributers inform him of. You can argue with them. You should be ashamed of yourself you child.

 

[El Drago]

sorry, due to the angle of Ganon's F tilt, ike cannot recover if he is hit above 70%, try it yourself. snake, while at a higher percentage will either drop to his death or kill himself with C4.

ganon's jab can break D3s chain grab and his huge slow body is easy to hit. same goes for rob, hes big and slow, ganon out range him in the air or just spike his slow recovery.

Getting people to high percentages is hard, but very doable. Im not saying ganon is top tier, i just know for a fact he can actually beat some other character, especially ike, its too easy.


*edit* oh yeah, trying to correct someone isnt flaming.