Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Kiwikomix]

On the Pit-Kirby thing: Something i noticed when I was playing against Pit as Kirby...
Once I inhaled him and used my arrow at the same time he used his. I'm pretty sure my arrow went forward and hit him while his zoomed past me. Maybe Kirby bends his head back a little to shoot the arrow or something, or maybe I was imagining it.
*Goes to test*

 

[Eltrotraw]

Pikachu is pretty difficult for Meta to gimp, imo.

I'd aim for a neutral there at worst.

 

[Kiwikomix]

So I tested it, and Kirby does avoid Pit's arrows when they both shoot at the same time. This means that Kirby can not only duck under Pit's arrows, but that he can spam them back more effectively. This might change the matchup by a small amount, but Pit has more options besides arrows. I'd say neutral at most.

 

[DanGR]

I have a suggestion: Sheik>Olimar, and I main Olimar.(or at least ~)

Sheik's fair>Olimar's
Sheik's upair>Olimar's
Sheik's needles can put Olimar in between a rock and a hard place sometimes.
Sheik's nair>Olimar's fair
Sheik's nair>Olimar's upsmash
Sheik's nair> Olimar(yes, Olimar in general)
Sheik's tilts>Olimar's close game
Sheik can kill b/c Olimar is very light weight

I can go farther into depth if you'd like me to explain more.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I have a suggestion: Sheik>Olimar, and I main Olimar.(or at least ~)

Sheik's fair>Olimar's
Sheik's upair>Olimar's
Sheik's needles can put Olimar in between a rock and a hard place sometimes.
Sheik's nair>Olimar's fair
Sheik's nair>Olimar's upsmash
Sheik's nair> Olimar(yes, Olimar in general)
Sheik's tilts>Olimar's close game
Sheik can kill b/c Olimar is very light weight

I can go farther into depth if you'd like me to explain more.

I normally play zelda rather than shiek against olimar, but shiek's a much better edgeguarder than zelda so I could see this matchup being true.

I still way sonic deserves to be at least equal here.

 

[Blad01]

Wow, poor Ganondorf...

He's my second main, i have to rectify some things :

- Ganondorf is even with Bowser, or has an avantage.
- Ganondorf is even with DK.
- Ganondorf HAS the advantage over Ike, or is even with him. WTF with this big disadvantage ?
- I highly doubt he has a large disadvantage with Snake... He's a big target, and we can deal with his grenades/Mortar. I think there is just a little disadvantage.

Hum, yeah, the others match-up seem to be right.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

How does Pit not have a Major Adv. over Bowser??

~His spam game completely owns him.
~Bowsers "projectile" (B) is blocked w/Pit's side+B and down+B.
~Aerials "can" screw his recovery.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I normally play zelda rather than shiek against olimar, but shiek's a much better edgeguarder than zelda so I could see this matchup being true.

I still way sonic deserves to be at least equal here.

Surprisingly I would actually say it may be slightly to Olimar's advantage. It is extremely difficult getting to Olimar but once you do get close SOnic can kill him easily. However its because its so difficult getting close that I would place it slightly to Olimar's favor.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'd say Sonic Olimar is neutral. It all depends on whether Sonic can get the momentum to run him and take him out close range, which is rather easy. Olimar does however have the tools to keep Sonic at bay. Olimar from personal experience is horrible to approach, but once you get him off the stage he's your own personal *****.
Definately neutral.

 

[Tenki]

So there was this joke that went around before that Sonic is only good with items, since he runs fast enough to be able to take certain items before other people.

._.; I never really thought about it, but there are quite a few matches that have such items, and Sonic has a crazy glide throw.

I had some low-lag friendlies against a ZSS player (Snakeee), and in one match, I was able to control of two of the armor pieces and pulled off a kill at 20% via glide tosses and other weird followups. Similar deal with a Diddy player I fought, too.

Regardless, that's not enough to change a ZSS vs Sonic matchup to Sonic's player, since their matchup seems to be momentum based (on Sonic's side, low juggles and chases; on ZSS side, stuns). Sonic has the mobility to go around her attacks (spring stops alot of anti-aerials lol) and get pressure started, but she has tools that can turn the momentum to her favor as well.

 

[S.O.G.]

Nice job, but Ike has a disadvantage on Snake and you put them equal

 

[Kashakunaki]

Personally I find the Olimar vs. DK match up to favor DK, but not to the point where it is absurd. In your chart terms I would suggest DK > Olimar

The reason why is range and priority. DK seemingly has a **** ton of priority on Olimar. Has grab range is pretty obscene like yours so it is difficult to space, and not to mention his ftilt, dtilt, fsmash, and dmash all have really far reaches. Also, his Dsmash will kill you in no time flat.

Basically the way to win this match with Olimar is play it safe and spam grab combos. You're rarely going to get that fsmash or dsmash. Nair is good for when he sidesteps. Keep him in the air and finish him with an Usmash at around 120% or so.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

My DK is sweet :D
Olimar is still a tough one, but i think it's neutral.
Cargo-Win.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'd say Sonic Olimar is neutral. It all depends on whether Sonic can get the momentum to run him and take him out close range, which is rather easy. Olimar does however have the tools to keep Sonic at bay. Olimar from personal experience is horrible to approach, but once you get him off the stage he's your own personal *****.
Definately neutral.

my favourite is how 90% of the boards declares the matchup to be neutral but IvanEva staunchly refuses to change it because he doesn't believe it.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Escapable with DI
weak Dash > U-tilt (High %)
Air: F-air > F-air > N-air/U-air/D-air (high %)
U-tilt > U-tilt (high %)
Thats what the true combo thread says,(http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168036) so unless you post a video of lucario comboing someone with those moves, i wont believe your arguement on that.
If a lucario is at 170% your playing a really bad marth, in this matchup marth's objective is low % kills with edgeguards or tippers(which can be half stepped to get easier tippers all the time).
And have you ever tried to do a footstool jump? There difficult if you do not know how to time one, bt from a true competitive marth knows the footstoool jump is the basis of getting low % kills and so a marth player wil learn how to perform this effective technique.. and your arguement about the b-up doesent work in the situation beacuse lucario's b-up doesent do damaged and thus easily intercepted by a footstool. If they air dodge, marth can counter that with an nair, the nair counters air dodging and is great when incorporate with fairs beacuse the opponent airdodges an then gets hit with the second swipe of the nair which non tipper kills at 110%

The true combo thread is wrong and has been for quite a while now. It's common knowledge to Lucario players that Fair>Nair or Fair>Fair are true combos with or without DI because of the very low pushback that Fair actually has. I believe that list there is talking about Fair>Fair>Nair, which rarely every will work against a competant opponent.

Sorry to bring up the Lucario vs. Marth thing again, but after doing some testing of my own, I found out all I needed to know about Shield Breaker. For starters, any time that Lucario can be hit by this move, he has the ability to side dodge it and end up BEHIND Marth. That includes the tipper. This moves' startup time (uncharged) is hideous and Marth cannot move until he finishes the attack, afterwards there is terrible lag. Easily enough time for Lucario to get in a free Ftilt or grab/force palm. The same goes for Dancing Blade. If the initial swing is side-dodged, Marth is left completely open from behind, since there is considerable lag upon ending the move (at any time) and Marth cannot cancel it or change directions.

So shield breaker = not something Lucario needs to be worried about. Roll as soon as you see the attack start up and it's a free hit.

Dancing Blade is still a threat because it starts so fast, but if it's side dodged correctly, then Marth is also left open for attack.

Another thing: someone said something about Marth having true Fair combos that could be comparable to Lucario's own, stating that you can hit with a Fair when the opponent's air dodge wears off if they dodge the first hit. This is false, because at the optimum height where you should be doing Fair combos, the opponent will always be able to air dodge and land on the stage before the air dodge wears out, meaning no pseudo-combo. Possibly offstage maybe, but definately not on-stage. Lucario's Fair combos work EVERYWHERE, not just off the stage, and they don't require a whole load of vertical space to perform. What's more, Lucario can perform his Fairs in a lot more rapid succession, as they have less lag.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's nice.

Marth is still the better character.

I'm being an *** cuz I'm tired of this debate.

Also I could have sworn I said you don't need to debate Hizzlum.

Isn't obvious by now that he has no clue as to what the **** he is talking about?

You SHOULD be debating me if you want a worthy opponent.

Not that I would debate you.

Seriously, NOTHING new is being said about this match-up at this point. Let it die.

 

[Browny]

oh lawd please end the lucario v marth debate, i think EL is coming :O

(ROFL nice timing )

seriously though, hizzlum
fast forward to the last 15 seconds of this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwHIQBTaTp4

DI out of that

 

[Kiwikomix]

"Marth is still the better character."

Now that's good reasoning.
I mean, DK must not be able to beat MK because MK's the better character.
And Snake must win EVERY game.
Because he's the better character.

You pride yourself on being an intelligent poster, and sometimes I can see it. But completely ignoring an obviously-well-thought-out wall of text kind of cancels it out.

Also, there's no reason to do the whole "I'm the best" thing on every single thread. If we aren't good enough to deserve your posts, then don't post.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I'm not denying that Marth is a better character, but his matchup against Lucario is even.

Everyone knows how cheap Marth is. But not everyone knows that Lucario can actually put up a good fight against him. Better than most characters.

That red X isn't going away, so of course I'm going to continue complaining about it.

But anyway, to change the subject (by popular demand. 4_4)

Snake vs. Lucario.

At the VERY LEAST this match up should be even, or in Lucario's favour.

Because Lucario can chian grab Snake up to 70% and at the same time completely gimp his recovery.

Force palm to the edge of the stage, running grab when you reach the edge, pummel repeatedly to force Snake to break out and fall downwards, slip off the edge and footstool/dair/whatever and then edgeguard.

Because Snake's second jump is very short, and because of the nature of his recovery, it's very easy to gimp him after this chain throw (although not guaranteed.)

This basically means that every time Lucario gets KOed by Snake, all he has to do is land one Force Palm and he can most likely get a KO back, and then proceed to do the same when Snake respawns.

Chain grab aside, all the same hitbox nonsense applies. Lucario can use Double Team to approach around explosives and grenades, can combo Snake something fierce in the air, and matches his crazy hitbox range with actual disjointed ones.

Honestly, this chart really doesn't do Lucario justice at all. The only disadvantages I agree with there are Olimar, Lucas and G&W.

I'm a little dubious about Squirtle. Squirtle doesn't quite have the range to be able to match Lucario offensively or defensively for that matter.

Likewise, shouldn't Pit be considered a bad matchup for Lucario? He has incredibly fast Ko moves that can't be easily powershielded, many reflectors to deal with aura sphere, and can retaliate with a much more annoying projectile of his own. He has disjointed hitboxes and excellent recovery/ability to fly right out and gimp Lucario in the middle of recovering. He can't be chain grabbed either...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Kiwikomix: Dude. I'm at a point where it should be obvious that debating this match-up any further is pointless. Both sides make good points. So it should be dropped.

And I never said that I was the best or that anyone in here didn't deserve my post unless that person was just being ********.

I couldn't give two ****s less what you think of me. Sometimes you see my intelligence? Well no **** you won't see it when I go out of my way to be an ***.

But don't you go questioning whether or not I'm an intelligent poster. I have proven this time and again with my efforts in the Brawl/Melee Marth forums, this thread and the match-up thread. You are in no position to say otherwise and neither can anyone else.

Seems like you have a problem with me. That's fine. Hit me up on AIM or send me a pm and we will work it out.

But calling me out and saying something completely untrue in terms of my motives as to why I said what I did will only provoke me and make me want to flame you.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ EL: I don't "have a problem with you" and I'm not saying that I'm "questioning whether or not you're an inteliigent poster". I'm saying that if you're capable of more than "Marth is better", then you should say something more than it, and since I know you ARE capable, then it doesn't make sense why you don't. I mean, you practically run the Marth matchups, so why don't you apply the knowledge here?
Oh, and no way would I talk to you on AIM... I remember what happened when Dexter tried that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ahhh.

Why don't I apply that knowledge you ask?

Simple. Nothing was said in regards to the match-up that I didn't already know.

Also Dexter Morgan was a moron who provoked me and suffered the consequences.

Also the main reason I said that was just to be a tool. At that point the debate was irrelevant in my eyes so I just posted the first thing that popped into my head because I wanted it to end and I wanted to express my distaste for the debate in a tasteless manner...so to speak.

Why exactly? I dunno really. Just felt like being difficult I guess.

I'm bout to summarize all the important parts of the Lucario vs Marth match-up.

Marth has : Range, better approach, faster movement/attacks overall, more killing power overall, better pressure game overall, slightly better recovery.

Lucarios has: Better roll/spot dodge, better camping/containment thanks to aura sphere, rage system, good combos, better grabs, lingering hitboxes.

Basically Lucario will try to play containment/control through the use of AS. Marth can get through these without much difficulty. Marth can pressure better at close range and be aggressive. Lucario will want to set up walls and go for combos when Marth is open. If Marth doesn't get in his kills around 100% Lucario becomes a huge threat. Marth can force Lucario to go onto the stage when he is edgeguarding. Then when Lucario lags Marth can attack. Wall cling means little when you can't wall cling on alot of the nuetral stages. So on these stages Lucario is at a disadvantage recovery wise. Both are good at gimping, but Marth has a slight edge here. Lucario is heavier then Marth, which helps him last longer and take advantage of his rage system. But Marth has his tippers to help mitigate this. Lucario lacks killing power until he is actually losing the fight. This is a strength and a weakness. It can help him make huge comebacks., but there is no gaurantee that he will live long enough to take advantage of it.


So basically Marth wants to play safe rush down and Lucario wants to play control/containment and use positioning advantage to get in grabs and start combos. Lucario also wants to force Marth to get past his hitboxes and punish Marth anytime his spacing isn't good since touching the lingering aura will damage him and stuff his attacks if he isn't careful.

The match-up is close.

Comment on what I said if you wish, but after a few comments let that be the end of it.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Another thing I have issues with on this list:

LUCAS!!

Why the heck have you put so many bad matchups for Lucas? DK? Falco? Fox? What the hell? Lucas can trash DK and matches up well with all space animals. Reflectors don't make PK Fire any the less useful because by the time it gets reflected, it won't reach Lucas anyway. He can absorb their projectiles for health, or just bat them right back.

Link? Why Link? Link's projectiles can all be bat-reflected, and he's vulnerable to Lucas's own. He's also incredibly easy to edgeguard with PK thunder, and Lucas's jab pretty much beats out his entire close-range game.

Peach, Squirtle, Diddy Kong and Wolf should all be even.

Luigi should be adisadvantage. Luigi's air game and priority gets Lucas in a bad spot most of the time.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Lucario lacks killing power until he is actually losing the fight. This is a strength and a weakness. It can help him make huge comebacks., but there is no gaurantee that he will live long enough to take advantage of it.

Argh, this is what I've been trying to say on the tier discussion all night. >_>

 

[ShadowLink84]

Um might I ask if you are godly at reflecting projectiles with the bat?
Projectile swarm makes using a bat useless and even then why would you be trying to bat a projectile back? Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean its going to actually be a good idea ot do so. How often did a Ness use the bat in melee? never
You have the magnet for it.

Even then Link has a solid ground game. His jabs certainly are not beaten by any of your jabs, they have range and priority. Granted they don't have speed but honestly what Link places themselves up close?
Not only that you have Zair which is also good for spacing and once you get t hit by it expected a DAC for an easy 20+ damage.

Link doesn't suck in the air either.
Nair, Bair, Fair all come out very quickly and have no lag upon landing.
Dair certainly verprioritizes much of what you have.

So Lucas is ont only going to have to try to outspace him he's going to ahve to try and approach Link for a kill, something thats difficult to do considering how quickly he can hurl those projectiles.

now I am not disagreeing that Lucas may have an advantage, however I don't believe its a heavy disadvantage for Link.
yes you can easily edge guard Link but the issue is how diffcult it is to get close. And that can be problematic.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Ahhh.

Why don't I apply that knowledge you ask?

Simple. Nothing was said in regards to the match-up that I didn't already know.

Also Dexter Morgan was a moron who provoked me and suffered the consequences.

Also the main reason I said that was just to be a tool. At that point the debate was irrelevant in my eyes so I just posted the first thing that popped into my head because I wanted it to end and I wanted to express my distaste for the debate in a tasteless manner...so to speak.

Why exactly? I dunno really. Just felt like being difficult I guess.

I'm bout to summarize all the important parts of the Lucario vs Marth match-up.

Marth has : Range, better approach, faster movement/attacks overall, more killing power overall, better pressure game overall, slightly better recovery.

Lucarios has: Better roll/spot dodge, better camping/containment thanks to aura sphere, rage system, good combos, better grabs, lingering hitboxes.

Basically Lucario will try to play containment/control through the use of AS. Marth can get through these without much difficulty. Marth can pressure better at close range and be aggressive. Lucario will want to set up walls and go for combos when Marth is open. If Marth doesn't get in his kills around 100% Lucario becomes a huge threat. Marth can force Lucario to go onto the stage when he is edgeguarding. Then when Lucario lags Marth can attack. Wall cling means little when you can't wall cling on alot of the nuetral stages. So on these stages Lucario is at a disadvantage recovery wise. Both are good at gimping, but Marth has a slight edge here. Lucario is heavier then Marth, which helps him last longer and take advantage of his rage system. But Marth has his tippers to help mitigate this. Lucario lacks killing power until he is actually losing the fight. This is a strength and a weakness. It can help him make huge comebacks., but there is no gaurantee that he will live long enough to take advantage of it.


So basically Marth wants to play safe rush down and Lucario wants to play control/containment and use positioning advantage to get in grabs and start combos. Lucario also wants to force Marth to get past his hitboxes and punish Marth anytime his spacing isn't good since touching the lingering aura will damage him and stuff his attacks if he isn't careful.

The match-up is close.

Comment on what I said if you wish, but after a few comments let that be the end of it.

So you yourself actually stated there that the match-up is close! So why were you so adamantly against my arguing that Marth and Lucario deserve an equal match-up on the chart?

Although one thing you did say is false: Lucario lacks KO power until he's actually losing.

Considering that Lucario's Fsmash KOes Mario at 132% when he's at 50% himself...Marth is a tad bit lighter than Mario, meaning that Lucario should be able to KO him with a fully charged AS/uncharged Fsmash at about 125%-ish. Now Marth's tippered Fsmash will KO Lucario at around 75% most of the time. If Lucario is at 75% himself, he'll be KOing Marth around the 100-110% mark, which isn't that big a difference between %, especially since Lucario has a projectile to help him get those extra cheap shots in.

(granted that Marth has more killing options than Lucario, it's still not exactly true that Lucario doesn't have KO power until he's "losing". His aura modifier and his ability to deal damage compliment each other nicely.)

 

[Swordplay]

I encourage reviewing this chart again as I think I saw some errors.

Most commonly are a vs b and b vs a

for example. You have Link vs Snake as a neutral matchup but you have snake vs link as an advantage 1 matchup for snake.

THEY SHOULD BE THE SAME


Also I am pretty sure I didn't misread these. Double check this matchup and others as well

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Um might I ask if you are godly at reflecting projectiles with the bat?
Projectile swarm makes using a bat useless and even then why would you be trying to bat a projectile back? Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean its going to actually be a good idea ot do so. How often did a Ness use the bat in melee? never
You have the magnet for it.

Even then Link has a solid ground game. His jabs certainly are not beaten by any of your jabs, they have range and priority. Granted they don't have speed but honestly what Link places themselves up close?
Not only that you have Zair which is also good for spacing and once you get t hit by it expected a DAC for an easy 20+ damage.

Link doesn't suck in the air either.
Nair, Bair, Fair all come out very quickly and have no lag upon landing.
Dair certainly verprioritizes much of what you have.

So Lucas is ont only going to have to try to outspace him he's going to ahve to try and approach Link for a kill, something thats difficult to do considering how quickly he can hurl those projectiles.

now I am not disagreeing that Lucas may have an advantage, however I don't believe its a heavy disadvantage for Link.
yes you can easily edge guard Link but the issue is how diffcult it is to get close. And that can be problematic.

Yes and yes. Lucas's bat is much faster than Ness's ever was, and the hitbox for reflecting is huge and long. It's SO EASY to reflect just about any projectile with Lucas's bat, so long as you can see it coming. Most projectiles have a clear startup time, so this isn't a problem.

It's not even that difficult to get close to Link though. Nothing compared to Toon Link. Shorthopped air dodges are sufficient to get behind Link most of the time, and close enough for Lucas's 1-frame jab to beat out any attack he might try to use to defend himself.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Ok, ZS Samus definately has a big advantage on Fox, due to stunlock that can reach about 60% damage minimum, and you can get a good 40% on Wolf, plus Sheik and Falco are vulnerable up to about 20% damage on the stunlock.
I suggest you put that ZS Samus has a small advantage on Fox, due to the ability to acquire a 60% damage lead on fox for every stock he has.
And she deserves nuetral on Wolf due to the 40% damage lead she can get under the same circumstances.
Also, those are the minimum damages they can be stun locked in, actually, by degenerating it, it becomes easier to stunlock the characters.
This can bring Fox to a punishing 120% damage and Wolf to a severe 90% damage, all this from a chain of well timed D-smashes!!! I believe this gives ZS Samus the upper hand.
Also, a fully degenerated D-smash can offer even more punishment to Falco, and sheik, an extra 20% for each! Btw, DI is 99% useless in a D-smash lock for Fox, probably even less than 99%.

http://www.allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=9194

 

[Browny]

So you yourself actually stated there that the match-up is close! So why were you so adamantly against my arguing that Marth and Lucario deserve an equal match-up on the chart?

Although one thing you did say is false: Lucario lacks KO power until he's actually losing.

Considering that Lucario's Fsmash KOes Mario at 132% when he's at 50% himself...Marth is a tad bit lighter than Mario, meaning that Lucario should be able to KO him with a fully charged AS/uncharged Fsmash at about 125%-ish. Now Marth's tippered Fsmash will KO Lucario at around 75% most of the time. If Lucario is at 75% himself, he'll be KOing Marth around the 100-110% mark, which isn't that big a difference between %, especially since Lucario has a projectile to help him get those extra cheap shots in.

ok guys i did some testing,

marths tippered, uncharged fsmash kills lucario, from the centre of FD at 104%. yes you read that right. 104%. with proper DI, i managed to survive the tipper every time at 103%

if lucario is at 103% himself, his fsmash kills marth every time, with proper DI. the lowest i put both marth and lucario on, where marth suvived was 99%. lucarios aura sphere also KO's when they are both at around 110%, although not all aura spheres will be directed along the ground. one that hits at short hop height will kill eariler, even earlier at full hop, since upwards DI is the best way to survive it. Double team can also KO off a marth jab when they are both at 110% with proper DI.

Lucarios bthrow at the edge can also KO below 100% if it isnt DI'ed properly. if you dont DI up, marth wont get back on the stage.



short answer, by the time lucario is in killing range on an fsmash tipper from marth, hes already got a stronger fsmash than marth (relatvie to weights of course) and hes only a few % short of aura sphere and DT (off a jab) becoming KO moves, all from the centre of FD with proper DI of course. and for anyone who doesnt know, lucarios fsmash has more range than marths tipper, http://i27.tinypic.com/fp83nd.jpg

please note im not arguing lucario > marth or anything, i know marth is still very good. im just pointing out facts

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ok, your dk section is very off and i'm going to try to fix it.

as of right now


large advantages : Jiggs, C. Falcon, Samus, Sonic, metaknight lucas, ness if infinites are kept as legal (cargo trap by ledge is inescapable)

advantages: diddy, pikachu, ike, snake, ganon, lucario, link, squirtle, charizard, ivysaur, game and watch, rob, sheik, zamus

neutral: mario, marth, falco, bowser, wolf, zelda, peach

disadvantage: wario, luigi, fox, kirby (maybe on kirby, need to play him more, he dies quick, might be neutral)

Large disadvantage: IC, DDD

have not played enough to judge and would like help from other good dk's: toon link, olimar, pit.

note i don't want some random marht main saying that toon link is 20x better than dk, i want an actually good dk player (i'll know who you are, i know 99% of dks), or a good (backed by tournament results) toon link, olimar, or pit player who can name a good dk they played


if you have any questions tell me, and since every person who mains a character i put in large disadvantage will question this, i'll explain my reasoning behind those characters now

Jiggs - dk's upb will beat out all of your ledge guarding attacks when used properly, downb beats the rollout, dk kills you at 50 and is the second heaviest character in the game, so you will not kill him till late, if you whiff a rest you're dead, i have killed a resting jiggs at 24% with a fully charged fsmash

C. falcon - dk is a wall of priority, which gives falcon fits

samus - offline dk has a great approach that can get around samus's weak projectile spam, samus is also floaty, which is not good vs dk

sonic - downb forces him into the air, in which case sonic is not much faster than dk. dk lives forever, and will not die until very late (170-230) bair, fair, and nair do not go through dk's upb, so you'd have to get off a spring gimp, which is very difficult vs a relatively fast horizontal recovery

metaknight - i have yet to drop a tournament set vs a metaknight, i have beaten the top metaknight out here (edge, ranked 4th in CA) twice, trust me on this, you kill him very quickly, you can punch through the tornado, you live a very long, gimp free time (mk doesn't have a spike, which is what gimps dk, upb will beat out mk's aerials due to its very large range) you take away basically everything that makes metaknight great, and all your smashes kill in the 50-80 range, once you know how to play a good dk, it is very easy.

 

[Browny]

are you taking into accont the fact thar DK is a combo pin-cushion of sorts. diddy, pika, lucario, G&W, shiek and zamus can all trap DK extremely well in chain grabs, tilt locks or simple combos that lead into finishers.

and no way DK is a large advantage against sonic. as above, dk is so large sonics moves all combo into each other for a large range of %'s. and im about 99% sure sonics side b goes through DK's down b during the hop, since it goes through just about every other move in the game.


infact screw that, i searched youtube for a video and what are the chances i find your video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-oS-fM2IN4

notice how sonics sideb goes through everything DK has. also you said when sonic is in the air, thats not where he wants to be. i think i counted 5 aerials that hit from DK in that entire match, while the sonic easily piled on the damage with his aerials.

you have the experience obviously to give a decent match up, but dont make generalisations like downb is greater than all of sonics approaches, when you obviously know this isnt the case

 

[Undrdog]

Also like to not that Samus can Zair Donkey Kong's player unplugs his controller and walks away.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Recipe for Lucario to win against DK:
1) use Force Palm at close range. Chain throw until edge of stage.
2) running grab and continuously grab attack until he breaks out and drops over the edge.
3) drop down and footstool/Fair second jump
4)????
5)profit.

Delicious gimp cake!

The problem here is that DK's recovery is mostly horizontal. He's also rather succeptable to Luc's chain grab.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Can you please move your marth Vs. lucario discussion somewhere else so that you stop ruining this thread by filling it with the same argument repeated over and over.

and, for the record, the matchup favours marth

 

[MattC13]

OMFG this is awesome. Props to IvanEva for making this.

 

[BigRick]

large advantages : Jiggs, C. Falcon, Samus, Sonic, metaknight lucas, ness if infinites are kept as legal (cargo trap by ledge is inescapable)

advantages: diddy, pikachu, ike, snake, ganon, lucario, link, squirtle, charizard, ivysaur, game and watch, rob, sheik, zamus

neutral: mario, marth, falco, bowser, wolf, zelda, peach

disadvantage: wario, luigi, fox, kirby (maybe on kirby, need to play him more, he dies quick, might be neutral)

Large disadvantage: IC, DDD

this list is biased

others have stated reasons why already

 

[PK Hexagon]

Do Lucas mains really use the stick to reflect projectiles? I've never seen one do that whatsoever. Probably for good reason too: Why deteriorate your fastest kill move?

 

[gantrain05]

yeah im a lucas main, i never use the stick to reflect, its a stupid move, most projectiles lucas is better off just using psi magnet or avoiding it alltogether, although a slow one like lucario or samus charge shot could be deflected with the stick easily, but its probably better to gain that 30% back lol.

 

[gantrain05]

large advantages : Jiggs, C. Falcon, Samus, Sonic, metaknight lucas, ness if infinites are kept as legal (cargo trap by ledge is inescapable)

advantages: diddy, pikachu, ike, snake, ganon, lucario, link, squirtle, charizard, ivysaur, game and watch, rob, sheik, zamus

neutral: mario, marth, falco, bowser, wolf, zelda, peach

disadvantage: wario, luigi, fox, kirby (maybe on kirby, need to play him more, he dies quick, might be neutral)

Large disadvantage: IC, DDD

im sorry, but ness certainly isnt at a large disadvantage vs dk, his Fair basically ***** DK's shield to the point of it breaking or having to try to dodge all over, and either situation is bad for DK, and and once DK is anywhere near 100% Ness Bthrow will put him in a bad situation, if it doesn't kill him ness can gimp DK pretty bad with a pk fire wall and then just Dair spike him for the k.o. however as we all know, a good dk player can K.O. easily at 60% and yes, i play with friends, and yes they are good. and we live in iowa and have jobs so we don't really have time to go to those, "pro tourneys" but that doesn't mean we aren't any good. so don't go flaming me too just becuz u haven't heard of me.