Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Fear The Force]

Olimar > Mr. Game & Watch; that I'm pretty positive on. nice chart, I got a couple of disagreements but nonetheless, pretty good.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

bahaha, Ike>Bowser? I thought this one had been proven many-a-time, why'd it change?

 

[Surri-Sama]

bahaha, Ike>Bowser? I thought this one had been proven many-a-time, why'd it change?

oh you didnt see it, this chart is actually a joke, i cant belive no one picked that up :o

 

[ShadowLink84]

It was changed because someone says otherwise.

Its like Where is says Sonic is at a disadvantage to Samus @_@

 

[Nowaytoeatatater]

I'm having trouble believing that Ganondorf has absolutely no advantages whatsoever. He sucks. He sucks hard. But I don't think he sucks that hard.

Also, I'm not sure if personal experiences count for anything, but I think Falco has a big advantage against Falcon. Almost all of his moves have priority over almost all of Falcon's moves, Falcon can't counter laser spam, Falco can easily punish Falcon's laggy moves, Falco's attacks have more range than Falcon's, etc..

 

[IvanEva]

Okay.
Ivaneva is pretty bad at this.
He sees one person, who obviously has a bias towards their own character, post a matchup for their character vs another, and he changes it immediately. When one person posts a matchup, let them argue it first, and then change it. If they both have good points, you wait. You dont take sides.

If I say Capt Falcon is equal with Snake, you dont add it.

Yes, I agree here. I'm a bit too hasty is accepting what some people say sometimes. However, that's just a matter of my being convinced of a match-up at the time of the latest update. As I get to play against an increasingly diverse group of people I'm being slowly treated to good, fairly-highly skilled battles between some of the more "exotic" (i.e. I never get to play against them) characters. It wasn't until very recently that I got to go against a fairly decent Sonic.

Falcon's approach with Falcon Kick is quicker than Snake's approaches, and it also does a nice chunk of damage.

If anyone could inform me as to why Bowser is set as having an advantage over Falcon I'd like to hear it because I really don't know much about the matchup and would like to learn.

Falcon kick as an approach? You'll be eating forward tilts all night long. Snake is MUCH quicker on the attack.

Bowser's forward tilt, forward air, and fire breath rob Falcon of everything he has going for him.

So, how do we get the TC to change the data?, because Ike>Kirby is just ridiculous. Is the TC even still here?

My apologies, I just got a new computer (after several failed repairs...) and have yet to downlo... err, buy Photoshop on it. I should have everything up and running by tomorrow.

oh you didnt see it, this chart is actually a joke, i cant belive no one picked that up :o

A joke? I hope not. Naysayers can complain all they want (and are encouraged of sorts) but overall I'd say that the chart is MOSTLY accurate right now. 70% or something like that. Nobody will ever agree with the entire thing but eventually it'll be ironed out enough so that that it can be considered to be at least "fairly accurate".

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Yes, I agree here. I'm a bit too hasty is accepting what some people say sometimes. However, that's just a matter of my being convinced of a match-up at the time of the latest update. As I get to play against an increasingly diverse group of people I'm being slowly treated to good, fairly-highly skilled battles between some of the more "exotic" (i.e. I never get to play against them) characters. It wasn't until very recently that I got to go against a fairly decent Sonic.

Ah well, thats okay. It's really frustrating having a debate with someone and someone makes the decision for the outcome before we come to an agreement. I mean, me and DanGR were both doing a good job in our discussion, so I didn't like how, when we decided on a stalemate for the time being, Ness was placed as a disadvantaged matchup V olimar. I mean, we had both agreed to resume it later, so having something besides a ? mark is a bit grating. In fact, you might as well of not updated that part until we finished.

And the same for Wario v Mario. I pretty much stopped when Mario was casually placed among the characters who get beat by Wario. My points were sound, but you still had the bias to give Dr the result he wanted, as if you ignored my stuff.

but yeah.

I can understand you being persuaded one way because of experience. Hell, I would be more apt to listen to someone who gave G&W the benefit of a matchup than one trying to give him a disadvantage. I was hoping for a little bit more neutrality. I dont think you play Olimar, Ness, Wario or Mario, and I wouldnt be surprised if you had only faced just a handful of them.

I was going to stay away from this topic because of the "bad management", but I may as well stick around and point out some other things I feel should change.

I've been playing a wider group of people lately.
Ganondorf feels like a slight advantage for G&W at this point. He isn't as bad as his matchups show him to be. He's very similar to Ike for G&W, who isnt completely shut down.

Ganondorf < G&W
I'm also tempted to move Lucas down to slight, but Its hard to think of reasons why.

So just ganon for now if nobody has an issue with this.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Am I reading this wrong or is C Falcon's only advantage against Squirtle?
Because if so, that's ridiculous. Squirtle is way too small. He runs circles around Falcon.

 

[Eltrotraw]

Am I reading this wrong or is C Falcon's only advantage against Squirtle?
Because if so, that's ridiculous. Squirtle is way too small. He runs circles around Falcon.

Funny. I was going to bring up that as well.

and lol at ganon for having no advantages

 

[talkingbeatles]

Also... um why does the Cap'n have a disadvantage against everyone? Including the big guys... Landing the knee is cake of charizard, bowser, and even DeDeDe.

And Ganondorf has crazy advantages against anyone who can be spiked. And that's everyone, man.

 

[Gishnak]

There's actually a thread in the DK boards about it, but I think a brief summary is as follows: (1) DK is heavy and can absorb a lot of AAA combos etc., (2) DK's tilts, Down-B and smashes pretty much neutralize Snake's entire ground game, (3) DK has a very good aerial approach that outmatches Snake's, and can juggle him, (4) DK is extremely good at gimping Snake off the stage, and (5) DK is deceptively fast despite being powerful, which helps him further outmaneuver snake. It's kind of weird, but not altogether unprecedented: DK had some nasty **** against fastfallers like CF in Melee as well.

ROFL.

1) Saying that a character is heavy and can absorb a lot of AAA combos doesn't mean he's a counter. It just means he's heavy and harder to kill. "AAA comboes" are definitely not the only way Snake can kill. Also Snake is heavier than DK and has earlier and easier to hit kill moves, so this is in Snake's favor.
2) DK's tilts, down b and smashes NEUTRALIZE Snake's entire ground game? If I ever see DK "neutralizing" Snake's ground game I'll stab myself with a mystery hypodermic needle. I don't know if you know what Snake's ground game is capable of.
3) You said that DK has an ariel approach that outmatches Snake's... Snake's doesn't need to approach aerially. Nor does he need to approach against DK. Again, this is not an advantage.
4)How is DK "extremely good" at gimping snake compared to characters with floating jumps, more maneuvarability of the stage and spikes? DK has some spikes, but Snake isn't that easily gimpable in general, unless he is particularly low or under the stage. But Snake can almost always Up+B right after being hit off the stage and stay above DK's shallow jumps. I'm not aware of any DK attacks that send characters laterally and downward. (Like fox's downsmash)
5)DK is fast. Do you mean his aerial speed?/DI His run speed? Snake can use the mortar slide and is more maneuverable than DK as far as I'm concerned. And even if he isn't, Snake has many projectiles that make maneuvering for DK very difficult.

The only thing I actually agree with out

Anyway, sorry to tear this post apart.

Still very interested in some valid reasons DK>Snake. Please, explain.

 

[KaShank]

Ivan I'm transferring your topic to AllisBrawl. They seem to be less noobish over all and you might actually receive the recognition you deserve.
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=14248

 

[isomorphism]

As I said, there is a much more in-depth post earlier in this thread. There are also plenty of videos online of good Snakes vs. good DKs. Check out KoreanDJ vs. Cort, for example (I think it's on Youtube). You say Snake isn't very gimpable, but he is actually quite gimpable out of his recovery, that's really not accurate at all. You dismiss DK's air game by saying that Snake doesn't need to approach aerially, but when Snake is launched into the air and starts being juggled by U-tilts it is indeed an issue. And DK's tilts are faster and have better range than Snake's, among other things. DK's ground game is very good against him, largely because of his range. Obviously each individual factor does not make him a Snake counter, but the combination of everything makes it a pretty good matchup. I'm honestly not the person you want to argue this matchup with, though; you should ask someone like Riot, or, as I thought I'd suggested, check out the relevant thread in the DK boards.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Ok... I'm also confused in how Bowser trumps Falcon. He's pretty easy to approach, as long as you dodge into the ground, and then spot dodge. From there, the game turns into dodge wars, and Falcon will when that against the Koopa King. If Bowser runs or rolls away, chase him. Falcon is good at that.

 

[The Executive]

Ok... I'm also confused in how Bowser trumps Falcon. He's pretty easy to approach, as long as you dodge into the ground, and then spot dodge. From there, the game turns into dodge wars, and Falcon will when that against the Koopa King. If Bowser runs or rolls away, chase him. Falcon is good at that.

How To Beat Falcon Using Bowser

1. Fire breath.

2. F-tilt.

3. F-air.

Repeat as necessary.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

You need to take out some of Lucario's disadvantages and turn them into neutrals.

for starters, Lucario isn't at a disadvantage when facing Marth. Lucario's hitboxes linger while marth's don't, and Lucario has range that can match Marth as well as projectile control. It's an equal match. They both have problems approaching each other. (aura sphere to Fsmash can keep Marth at bay quite effectively, and Lucario has trouble approaching dancing blade strings) They can both gimp each other very effectively. Lucario has slightly more control of the field thanks to aura sphere and his lingering hitboxes. He also has an excelling out of shield game, and a superior dodge, which is good for dealing with Marth's short-lived hitboxes. Marth on the other hand, doesn't have as many invincibility frames on his dodge, and Lucario's hitboxes stay out long enough to catch him during his evasive techniques.

Also, Snake. Lucario can chain throw Snake up to 70% at the start of the stock and at the same time gimp his recovery with ease. He also can match the range of his tilts. Lucario also does well against Snake in the air, and thanks to his fast dodge roll, doesn't have to fear mines and grenades as much as other characters. Double team also does quite well against grenades due to the wide range that it covers when it counters a hit.

It's the same for Metaknight. Lucario outranges Meta and can keep him at bay with his constant wall of lingering hitboxes. His high-priority attacks and double team also help him deal with tornado spam. Metaknight also doesn't KO until higher percents, and once Lucario reaches 100%, he can KO Metaknight as low as 80% with Fsmash.

Lucario should have a good match up against Wolf. Lucario can chain throw Wolf up to 70%, out prioritizes and outranges him for the most part, and gimps him with ease.

His 0-70 chain throw also works on Dedede, but Dedede can chain throw him back, so an equal match up sounds good to me.

I don't know why you've put Sonic as a disadvantage. Just throwing out one aura sphere or one Fsmash is enough to stop most of Sonic's approaches. A single uncharged aura sphere stops him from running across the stage to grab you, cancels spin dash and other spins, and limits his movements greatly. In fact, even Lucario's Ftilt is enough to stop Sonic from approaching effectively.

Seriously, Lucario isn't god tier, but he has better match ups than what you've got here.

 

[talkingbeatles]

How To Beat Falcon Using Bowser

1. Fire breath.

2. F-tilt.

3. F-air.

Repeat as necessary.

What? I can spot dodge the tilts and come out fast enough to tilt/grab/gentleman or maybe, just maybe, if I feel like it, knee the hell out of Bowser. If I get in close, Bowser is too slow to do anything, save for his A's.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

What? I can spot dodge the tilts and come out fast enough to tilt/grab/gentleman or maybe, just maybe, if I feel like it, knee the hell out of Bowser. If I get in close, Bowser is too slow to do anything, save for his A's.

Uh-uh...fortress, Klaw, grab, etc.

Bowser's not as slow as you'd think, especially given the fact that Falcon has a lot of lag at the end of his attacks, and terrible priority.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Uh-uh...fortress, Klaw, grab, etc.

Bowser's not as slow as you'd think, especially given the fact that Falcon has a lot of lag at the end of his attacks, and terrible priority.

Okay I'll give you the whole priority thing. And granted, that is pretty big. Falcon has piss poor priority. I don't believe his lag is too bad on his tilts. Also, I know Bowser isn't that slow. He is slower then Falcon though. Maybe I should just be arguing for a "neutral" rather then an "advantage" mark.

 

[Tenki]

I don't know why you've put Sonic as a disadvantage. Just throwing out one aura sphere or one Fsmash is enough to stop most of Sonic's approaches. A single uncharged aura sphere stops him from running across the stage to grab you, cancels spin dash and other spins, and limits his movements greatly. In fact, even Lucario's Ftilt is enough to stop Sonic from approaching effectively.

I haven't checked the chart, but Sonic boards' matchup thread pretty much puts Lucario at an advantage to Sonic because of his aura and increasing strength as he gets to high damage (where Sonic's KO 'prowess' bites him in the butt >_<)

@.@; I disagree with what you think stops his approaches, but I'll leave it at that

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I haven't checked the chart, but Sonic boards' matchup thread pretty much puts Lucario at an advantage to Sonic because of his aura and increasing strength as he gets to high damage (where Sonic's KO 'prowess' bites him in the butt >_<)

@.@; I disagree with what you think stops his approaches, but I'll leave it at that

Well from my experiences with Sonic vs. Lucario, Sonic has no projectiles so he relies on his speed to get inside the enemy's defenses to cause direct physical damage.

If Sonic is running towards Lucario, and Lucario uses a single Aura sphere (uncharged) Sonic basically has to stop whatever he's doing and avoid the projectile. He can't concentrate on closing in to attack Lucario for that moment. He either has to dash attack it, jump over it, or dodge it. Now that single Aura Sphere on its own isn't much of a problem, but all of Lucario's other attacks are basically almost projectile and have incredible priority, and they stay out for a very long time. Sonic can't really attack Lucario head-on any time that he's using an attack, and by the time he can get past the lingering hitboxes, Lucario is already in a position to defend or follow up with another attack.

Against other opponents with lots of range (Ike for example) Sonic can get away with it because he's so fast that he can run in and punish mistakes after the hitboxes have ended. But Lucario's lingering hitboxes hardly leave him open to punishment, which makes it kind of hard for Sonic to approach without running head first into a wall of aura.

 

[hizzlum]

You need to take out some of Lucario's disadvantages and turn them into neutrals.

for starters, Lucario isn't at a disadvantage when facing Marth. Lucario's hitboxes linger while marth's don't, and Lucario has range that can match Marth as well as projectile control. It's an equal match. They both have problems approaching each other. (aura sphere to Fsmash can keep Marth at bay quite effectively, and Lucario has trouble approaching dancing blade strings) They can both gimp each other very effectively. Lucario has slightly more control of the field thanks to aura sphere and his lingering hitboxes. He also has an excelling out of shield game, and a superior dodge, which is good for dealing with Marth's short-lived hitboxes. Marth on the other hand, doesn't have as many invincibility frames on his dodge, and Lucario's hitboxes stay out long enough to catch him during his evasive techniques.

Marth can put high pressure play on lucario with SHFF'S that create multiple combos on lucario's floatyness rack up lucario's damage easy. Marth is also faster than lucario so marth can put lucario on the defensive in a short amount of time. Also Marth has kill moves that prevent Lucario from reaching desireable aura % with marth's b-up,fsmash at ,tipper fsmash at 80-70%,dsmash ,usmash, tipper fair,bair,nair, vertical spaced dairs that allow spiking to be simple and an instant kill if the footstool is landed,neutral b tipper that can get low % kills. also marth's neutral b outranges most approaches(even lucarios). And no-one debates that marth has much better edgegame than lucario, and since lucario's b-up dosent do damage, it is easily pivot edgehogged or b-up sweet spotted at the end of an edgeguard gettting the kill most of the time. Marth has the advantage I believe only 6:4, the chart blows many matchups out of proportion beacuse many of them are actually very close.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Marth can put high pressure play on lucario with SHFF'S that create multiple combos on lucario's floatyness rack up lucario's damage easy. Marth is also faster than lucario so marth can put lucario on the defensive in a short amount of time. Also Marth has kill moves that prevent Lucario from reaching desireable aura % with marth's b-up,fsmash at ,tipper fsmash at 80-70%,dsmash ,usmash, tipper fair,bair,nair, vertical spaced dairs that allow spiking to be simple and an instant kill if the footstool is landed,neutral b tipper that can get low % kills. also marth's neutral b outranges most approaches(even lucarios). And no-one debates that marth has much better edgegame than lucario, and since lucario's b-up dosent do damage, it is easily pivot edgehogged or b-up sweet spotted at the end of an edgeguard gettting the kill most of the time. Marth has the advantage I believe only 6:4, the chart blows many matchups out of proportion beacuse many of them are actually very close.

Marth can't combo Lucario in the air at all. Lucario can air dodge through Marth's Fairs.

Marth on the other hand, CAN'T air dodge Lucario's Fair>Dair or Fair>Nair combo at any given time until he's at high%.

Marth's moves have faster activation time, but more lag than Lucario's moves, and they don't stay out as long. Lucario doesn't have much problem with Marth's speed if he constantly keeps up a good defense using his lingering hitboxes. And because of the short, sharp nature of Marth's attacks, he has to be very precise with his attacks, while Lucario does not. Lucario for example, can punish a whiffed Fsmash from Marth if he dodges it, due to the lag at the end of Marth's Fsmash. Marth can't do that, because of the range of Lucario's Fsmash being beyond his rolling distance, and also because the hitbox stays out for so long, and Lucario has next to no lag after the hitbox wears off.

Lucario starts to get KO power as early on as 50%. Blow for blow, he also deals more damage than Marth, at 80% his Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash and Aura sphere all do close to 15% per hit, which is a lot for such huge and fast hits. Marth's tipper usually kills Lucario at around the 90-100 range, by which point Lucario has enough aura boost to KO Marth at about the same.

His neutral B is very punishable, even if it's shielded (if you release the shield immediately, it won't break.) Especially for Lucario who will have no problem dodging this move for a free grab/tilt/force palm. Remember that Marth's Shield Breaker doesn't have a long-lasting hitbox, and Lucario's spot dodge and side roll has invincibility frames as on frame 2. There's a huge window to dodge this attack, and Lucario's Fsmash still reaches further.

Lucario actually has a better edge game. Marth can't use Dair to edgeguard, and he can't recover from below the stage, push people away with Fairs that stay out for 8 frames after activation, shoot projectiles at people standing around ledge, or cling to walls if the edge is being hogged, then immediately recover with a jumping air dodge or attack. Marth also can't follow an opponent right out into the magnifying glass, hit them directly out of their second jump before it starts (Lucario's back throw has very little lag time, allowing you to follow your opponent off the stage) and still recover by grabbing the edge.

 

[Emblem Lord]

NESSBOUNDER: TBH, I would debate with you since you deserve a worthy opponent, but....I don't care enough about the match-up to do so.

It's highly debatable, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[Browny]

). And no-one debates that marth has much better edgegame than lucario, and since lucario's b-up dosent do damage, it is easily pivot edgehogged

lol way to contradict yourself

lucario can pivot edgehog marth just as easily as marth does to lucario, marths upb can have the knockback of dedede fsmash it doesnt make a difference to invincibility frames. only difference, marths is faster while lucarios goes further, and he can curve it to go above the edge. of course if marths drops off the edge to b-air or whatever during extremespeed that makes a difference, point is when lucario is pivot edgehogging, marth is screwed if hes caught anywhere near below the stage.

 

[DMG]

And the same for Wario v Mario. I pretty much stopped when Mario was casually placed among the characters who get beat by Wario. My points were sound, but you still had the bias to give Dr the result he wanted, as if you ignored my stuff.

Maybe your points were not sound in the opinion of others?. Cause I haven't seen anyone else come around and "correct" what I have already stated on that matter. I listed some points about that matchup too so don't make it sound like I'm a bad guy that came in here and said to change the matchup for some erratic reasons.

I've been playing a wider group of people lately.
Ganondorf feels like a slight advantage for G&W at this point. He isn't as bad as his matchups show him to be. He's very similar to Ike for G&W, who isnt completely shut down.

Ganondorf < G&W
I'm also tempted to move Lucas down to slight, but Its hard to think of reasons why.

So just ganon for now if nobody has an issue with this.

IDK about moving either one of them down. They both have some pretty big issues against G&W and I'm pretty sure that the mains for Ganon and Lucas also think that G&W is a tough one.

Does anyone wanna discuss some of Links matchups? Some of them seem to be misleading, like him going even against Dedede and Pikachu.

 

[LegendofLink]

Link is an interesting one because he can camp to stop campers, but can't effectively camp against anyone faster than Bowser. His melee range is also one of the largest in the game, being about equal with Marth's. Combine that with his z-air and shield and you have the perfect anti-camping character. The only character that can camp effectively against Link is Falco, because of his reflector and the fact that he can time his lasers to avoid Link's shield. Even Toon Link, a character thought to be overall better than Link, can't camp due to Link's superior range, projectiles, and z-air.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You need to take out some of Lucario's disadvantages and turn them into neutrals.

and Lucario has range that can match Marth as well as projectile control.

Correction, Lucario has range that can almost match Marth. Shield breaker outranges all of your ground moves except F-smash (which it ties with and outspeeds), and fair and nair outrange all of your aerials (only a little bit mind you). And Marth really has no problems dealing with projectiles, considering that all of his attacks stop them or just plain go through them. And if you are approaching from behind it, then he'll just shield it and then dancingblade afterwards.

It's an equal match. They both have problems approaching each other. (aura sphere to Fsmash can keep Marth at bay quite effectively, and Lucario has trouble approaching dancing blade strings)

Marth has no problems approaching Lucario. He just has to use ground approaches instead of aerial ones. Walking foward and d-tilt/f-tilting is actually very effective and very safe. And while your f-smash may have the great range, it's not exactly the fastest, or most suprising move. Although it's low ending lag does make it hard to punish, it's still not really "keeping him at bay" as you said.

They can both gimp each other very effectively. Lucario has slightly more control of the field thanks to aura sphere and his lingering hitboxes.

Marth gimps better and arguably has more control of the field because of his better speed. Seriously, aurasphere is not a problem for Marth and doesn't really stop him. The lingering hitboxes is a good point though, and that is a bit of a pain to get around, but the same can be said of Marth's f-tilt and d-tilt (and Side B spam), except they do more damage and offer more shield pressure.

He also has an excelling out of shield game, and a superior dodge, which is good for dealing with Marth's short-lived hitboxes.

Only Marth has a better out of shield game, and is very good at punishing dodges, by simply spamming side B. If he sees a dodge, start a side B. If he sees you roll towards him, turn around and side B. If you roll away, run foward and...side B. Seriously, that thing just eats dodges for breakfast, and tacks on 16% while I'm on the subject.

Marth on the other hand, doesn't have as many invincibility frames on his dodge, and Lucario's hitboxes stay out long enough to catch him during his evasive techniques.

Which is why Marth players honestly shouldn't be dodging that much, considering his out of shield game is better 99% of the time. Instead of spotdodging or rolling out of attack strings, he should be up Bing (works behind him too) through them. Instead of rolling to escape pressure games, he should just drop his shield and side B, or jump backwards out of his shield and airdodge. Marth's defensive game is actually better than Lucario's.


And one more point that I'd like to bring up is that Marth kills a lot sooner than most characters, not only because of his edgeguarding, but because of how strong his aerials are and how easy it is to refresh them (two side B strings is 8 attacks!). So killing Lucario early with a nair or fair is not that hard, and even if Lucario does live to a high percent, one tipped downsmash, or even the up version of the side B combo, is enough to take him out.

Marth can't combo Lucario in the air at all. Lucario can air dodge through Marth's Fairs.

And then get faired after the airdodge because it ends before the airdodge does.

Marth on the other hand, CAN'T air dodge Lucario's Fair>Dair or Fair>Nair combo at any given time until he's at high%.

True, but if he DI's away he can avoid the fair>dair combo, and the fair>nair combo won't be killing him...until he's at a high% in which the DI will let him escape the nair.

Marth's moves have faster activation time, but more lag than Lucario's moves, and they don't stay out as long. Lucario doesn't have much problem with Marth's speed if he constantly keeps up a good defense using his lingering hitboxes.

Umm..which moves are you talking about? F-tilt, D-tilt, and Fair are completely safe on block. He has no problems pressuring with just these moves, and if he wants to be fancy, Lucario's not fast enough to punish a well spaced shieldbreaker, so he could use that too.

And because of the short, sharp nature of Marth's attacks, he has to be very precise with his attacks, while Lucario does not.

Side B, d-tilt, and shieldbreaker do not require such precision, and are quite spamable.

Lucario for example, can punish a whiffed Fsmash from Marth if he dodges it, due to the lag at the end of Marth's Fsmash. Marth can't do that, because of the range of Lucario's Fsmash being beyond his rolling distance, and also because the hitbox stays out for so long, and Lucario has next to no lag after the hitbox wears off.

And at the same time Lucario can't punish a whiffed shieldbreaker, because by the time Lucario gets in range to attack Marth can move again. All you're really saying is that Marth can't throw out random F-smashes like Lucario can, but it's not like he needs to when he has much better moves to randomly throw out.

And Marth's f-smash also comes out much faster than Lucario's if you want to put it that way, so Marth can punish a whiffed attack with a f-smash, while Lucario can't. See what I did there?

Lucario starts to get KO power as early on as 50%. Blow for blow, he also deals more damage than Marth, at 80% his Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash and Aura sphere all do close to 15% per hit, which is a lot for such huge and fast hits. Marth's tipper usually kills Lucario at around the 90-100 range, by which point Lucario has enough aura boost to KO Marth at about the same.

Marth has his killing power all the time. Blow for Blow, side B beats out everything you said, doing 16-21%, and counting as four seperate moves in the move decay.

And while killing Lucario with a f-smash at 90 is cool and all, I'd gladly get him up another 40% if it means every attack I have (besides d-tilt and jab), will get him off the stage or kill him.

His neutral B is very punishable, even if it's shielded (if you release the shield immediately, it won't break.) Especially for Lucario who will have no problem dodging this move for a free grab/tilt/force palm. Remember that Marth's Shield Breaker doesn't have a long-lasting hitbox, and Lucario's spot dodge and side roll has invincibility frames as on frame 2. There's a huge window to dodge this attack, and Lucario's Fsmash still reaches further.

But you're forgetting one very important thing. If the Marth player is actually good...he'll space the attack. If you dodge it, the only move you can reach with is f-smash (yes, shieldbreaker has that much range), but your f-smash is too slow to punish him. Shield breaker has very little ending lag btw. If you roll behind him, he has time to roll away himself, or up B or side B you if he expects you to attack him afterwards (both of which come out faster than most of your attacks). Maybe you've been playing bad Marths or something, because Marth's attacks are only safe when properly spaced. But when the Marth is actually good at spacing, he's a beast.

Lucario actually has a better edge game. Marth can't use Dair to edgeguard, and he can't recover from below the stage, push people away with Fairs that stay out for 8 frames after activation, shoot projectiles at people standing around ledge, or cling to walls if the edge is being hogged, then immediately recover with a jumping air dodge or attack.

True, but Marth can side B spike people, footstool jump to dair, reverse up B edgeguard to stage spike opponents, or nair to just plain kill them at that distance. I've also recoverd from under stages by using shield breaker, second jump, side B, up B, in that order. And while Lucario can do that cool wall cling with his up B, he can be hit out of it very easily, while Marth's up B is very hard to edgeguard because of it's invincible start up, it's large attack range, it's large sweetspot range, it's speed, and it's high knockback (for an up B anyway).

Marth also can't follow an opponent right out into the magnifying glass, hit them directly out of their second jump before it starts (Lucario's back throw has very little lag time, allowing you to follow your opponent off the stage) and still recover by grabbing the edge.

And Lucario can't kill an opponent with a fair from at the ledge at 120%, or a bair or nair at even less. Or up B through their up B. Marth's edgeguarding is done closer to the ledge, but that doesn't make it worse in any way. Just like Lucario, all of his aerials tear through other characters up Bs. But unlike Lucario, All of his aerials have killing power.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I've been thinking......Should Bowser vs DDD be made into a huge disadvantage? I mean of course we all know DDD can infinte him, but even outside that, it's still a pretty bad matchup for Bowser. DDD can outrange Bowser even with his mighty F-tilt, becuase DDD has an even BETTER F-tilt in terms out range. He can camp him with the Waddle dees with ease, completely outclasses him in the air in both mobility and power, can gimp and WOP him even easier than normal due to his size, same goes with DDDcide. I think it's an even worse matchup than DDD vs DK.



Of course, I'm not sure if everything I 'm saying is accurate, as DDD is only my secondary and I just came to this conclusion from Testing, personal experiance, and overall comparing the two to each other.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Maybe your points were not sound in the opinion of others?. Cause I haven't seen anyone else come around and "correct" what I have already stated on that matter. I listed some points about that matchup too so don't make it sound like I'm a bad guy that came in here and said to change the matchup for some erratic reasons.

Nobody "corrected" what I said, either. When someone debates with another its usually just those two who care about the matchup (unless its like Marth v Lucario). Nobody jumps in and corrects anything, which is disappointing. If anything, arguing for a lower tier character is much harder because less people play them, and more support might be drawn for the higher. This happened when I argued Ness and Olimar.

I didnt mean to make it sound like that. I was expressing my frustration as to why Ivan changed the matchup when it was onesided (i.e. I didnt care to debate anymore as you [i[sorta[/i] kept repeating yourself and shoved some things I put out to the side). He should of only changed it when a Mario main came in and gave his verdict. Preferably someone like Boss. If a high level Mario has trouble with high level Wario's, then I would be fine.

I interjected myself into your changes because nobody would defend Mario. If someone puts out changes and nobody defends the other character, they're usually changed by "unanimous decision". It shouldnt of been changed as I was giving reasons why it should be neutral. The reasons made sense, so my argument should of been a placeholder for a real main to step in. My argument shouldnt of been the actual matchup discussion, so changing it was in bad taste.

LT characters get shafted in this matchup chart because everyone has a bloated opinion of the higher ups.

IDK about moving either one of them down. They both have some pretty big issues against G&W and I'm pretty sure that the mains for Ganon and Lucas also think that G&W is a tough one.

Well, I don't know about them, but G&W's don't have the easiest time vs Ganny. If you pop in our section you'll see a thread dedicated to the matchup of the two, showing that some have trouble. I've played three different mains, and I'm used to the matchup. It's not a onesided fight here. By no means is it easy for Ganon, but it isnt a complete 8:2 or something like that. Ganon is underrepresented, so I don't know if I can get some feedback from one of their mains, but from our side, Ganon seems to have some things that help him not get completely shafted.

I'll leave this matchup for debate, though.

I also want to argue my fourth main's, Yoshi, matchup with Zelda. This fight is really downhill for the dinosaur. Dins hurts a lot, the Usmash is a *****, and Zelda out ranges and out prioritizes almost everything yoshi has. Yoshi has no great disadvantages on the chart, last time I checked, but I'm all for moving her there.

I've also talked with another Yoshi main, who's opinion I respect a lot, and he also thinks the matchup is terrible.

What do Zelda mainers think?

 

[talkingbeatles]

I don't know if Ganon is underrepresented, it's just nobody listens to the Ganon players. I second Ganon, and am frequently frustrated by how useless everyone says he is. As for going up against someone like G&W, it's hard to say. I haven't fought too many people maining as this guy. I imagine G&W would actually have the upper hand.

 

[hizzlum]

Marth on the other hand, CAN'T air dodge Lucario's Fair>Dair or Fair>Nair combo at any given time until he's at high%.


Lucario starts to get KO power as early on as 50%.

There's a huge window to dodge this attack, and Lucario's Fsmash still reaches further.

Lucario actually has a better edge game. Marth can't use Dair to edgeguard, and he can't recover from below the stage,

Those combos you stated are escapable with DI, as shown in this thread.http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168036.
Tell me one of Lucario's moves that kills at 50% at the center of a stage.
Marth has been actually test at 72% in the middle of FD, http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=143923,
Shieldbreaker has more range than lucario's fsmash.
Marth had the best edge game in melee(along with shiek) and only is surpassed by MK in brawl. And obviously you don't know about the new marth technique called vertical spacing, which creates a tipper dair every time at has 100 % accuracy rate when it is done(the opponent suffers from the stun of the foot stool)http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Vertical_spacing if you want to learn how to be good with marth for low % all the time. The pros in melee also have created many marth edgeguarding techniques that prove to be extremly effective and they get the job done (bair edgeguard,triple fair off the stage edge guard,aerial+reverse b-up,daired ledge,ken combo(vertical spacing allows ken combos to be done much easier)fair to last frames bair to name a few). Marth has more versatile aerials that allow him abilities of great edgeguarding that was known since early melee, his aerials produce extremly effective kills and give him multiple options depending on the situation.

 

[hizzlum]

lol way to contradict yourself

lucario can pivot edgehog marth just as easily as marth does to lucario, marths upb can have the knockback of dedede fsmash it doesnt make a difference to invincibility frames. only difference, marths is faster while lucarios goes further, and he can curve it to go above the edge. of course if marths drops off the edge to b-air or whatever during extremespeed that makes a difference, point is when lucario is pivot edgehogging, marth is screwed if hes caught anywhere near below the stage.

If the lucario loses the invincibility frames there is a great possibility of being stage spiked while marth doesent have to worry about another attack coming.The pivotedgehog is more "forgiving" to marth than lucario in this match up beacuse lucario could time it wrong and lose a stock he should'nt have

 

[DMG]

I didnt mean to make it sound like that. I was expressing my frustration as to why Ivan changed the matchup when it was onesided (i.e. I didnt care to debate anymore as you [i[sorta[/i] kept repeating yourself and shoved some things I put out to the side). He should of only changed it when a Mario main came in and gave his verdict. Preferably someone like Boss. If a high level Mario has trouble with high level Wario's, then I would be fine.

I interjected myself into your changes because nobody would defend Mario. If someone puts out changes and nobody defends the other character, they're usually changed by "unanimous decision". It shouldnt of been changed as I was giving reasons why it should be neutral. The reasons made sense, so my argument should of been a placeholder for a real main to step in. My argument shouldnt of been the actual matchup discussion, so changing it was in bad taste.

LT characters get shafted in this matchup chart because everyone has a bloated opinion of the higher ups.

It's cool, I still to this day don't have anything personal against you. We both kinda ignored/shouted at each other and stuck our tongues out

I agree, I think that we should get more feedback on matchups from players on both sides. I think until we get that feedback, that the matchups in question should be a ? mark. Unless it seems really obviously one sided (Marth vs Ness), then I think it would be safer to label them as unknown.

LT characters are/got shafted in general lol... But yeah I get what you are going at.

Well, I don't know about them, but G&W's don't have the easiest time vs Ganny. If you pop in our section you'll see a thread dedicated to the matchup of the two, showing that some have trouble. I've played three different mains, and I'm used to the matchup. It's not a onesided fight here. By no means is it easy for Ganon, but it isnt a complete 8:2 or something like that. Ganon is underrepresented, so I don't know if I can get some feedback from one of their mains, but from our side, Ganon seems to have some things that help him not get completely shafted.

I'll leave this matchup for debate, though.

I also want to argue my fourth main's, Yoshi, matchup with Zelda. This fight is really downhill for the dinosaur. Dins hurts a lot, the Usmash is a *****, and Zelda out ranges and out prioritizes almost everything yoshi has. Yoshi has no great disadvantages on the chart, last time I checked, but I'm all for moving her there.

I've also talked with another Yoshi main, who's opinion I respect a lot, and he also thinks the matchup is terrible.

What do Zelda mainers think?

I didn't think that G&W's out there expressed some concern about Ganon, but that's just me. Ganon has some things going for him, but it just seems like G&W can play more defensively than normal and beat Ganon with a wall of priority. I do wanna hear a Ganon main's opinion though, would be interesting to see his/her point of view.

I personally think Yoshi<Zelda and maybe even Yoshi<<Zelda. Don't know too much about it though.

 

[Darth JoBak]

Ness is obliviously under represented but the chart for him is ridiculousssss! He has some horrible matchups sure (marth vs ness = lol) but PLEASE adjust the chart! Ness just isnt as disadvantaged on about half of the matchups as displayed

sorry for lack of info, in a hurry

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Argue individual matchups. If the arguement is good, and nobody refutes it, he'll change the chart. If it is refuted, you will debate, and the arguement that is the most accepted will probably be shown.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Is anyone gonna argue my DDD>>Bowser points?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

also, seriously, there is no reason squirtle should have an advantage on zelda

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^ i agree

10 char

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I mean... people say he's fast and hard to Lighting kick.

that's not really true.

Squirtle is actually quite slow... he's only fast:
-in the air
-when shellshifting


niether is particularly threatening.
-Zelda's Usmash destoys squirlyes aerial approaches.
-Shell shifting won't get him inside of zelda, he can't get through her Fsmash or Dtilt without an Fsmash of his own (the flinchproof frames will do it)


Now as for the hard to lightning kick. that's true. he's a smasll target. if he DOES get Lightning kicked, he'll get reamed though. but it's not like zelda doesn't have enough options for killing him already since she posesses so many kill moves.

Also, she can just camp him until he fatigues sinch he can't really counter camp her at all.