Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[ScythedBlade]

Hey ... I've been reading the chart for a while ...

Wolf has an advantage against Marth ... not the other way around ...

 

[IDK]

although pikachu has the 70% chaingrab on fox, why does he still have a large advantage when fox has the reflector? Pikachu is a big projectile spammer, and this is why Lucas has a large advantage over Pikachu, because of his PSI mag, and posesses projectiles himself. As fox does. Also, pikachu has to stop spamming projectiles to get in the CG, which means he has to attack, where fox has the advantage. Discuss.

 

[DMG]

And no, Dr. Mario Guy, I don't have frame data for you. But after having watched Yoshi's f-tilt and d-tilt in super-slo-mo, I'm sure they come out at frame three, if not sooner.



I think the discussion is over... Escalator is now ignoring you, sHell backed out... Unless you want it to be a you vs me argument, I'm all for putting the argument on hiatus until the CG is developed. Although I think we should keep it at neutral for now

That's ok about Frame Data it can be really hard to obtain, but I would like to compare them eventually.

I have no problem putting it on a short break for now, and putting it at even seems fair for now. Escalator can come post here, and I personally have nothing against him, just don't like it when he starts with the insults. They really don't serve much purpose here.

 

[manhunter098]

Well I think ROB and Lucario are probably about even, though I think the matchup favors ROB more. Though I havent experienced a lot of ROB players so I wouldnt be an authority. But ROB is a rather heavy character and Lucario is on the light end of the scale. Neither by a large margin but its still heavy versus light. ROB has a great set of aerials as well. I would say that definitely rival Lucario except that Lucario's is a bit more versatile, but I find ROBs far more effective (ROBs f-air beats Lucario's hands down).

ROB doesnt really have a limited projectile game either. The Gyro is pretty fast and it stays out so it can be reused (by either character though) it maxes at about 19 damage and has good knockback too. ROB's laser is a bit slow to come out, you can pretty much just air dodge as soon as you see him start and its going to miss (depending on your distance of course) . On the ground its rather good though, and charged it makes a good edge guard, in addition to his already great edge guarding game. I say ROBs recovery is probably what makes the biggest difference though. Lucario pretty much HAS to send ROB flying fast enough to kill him otherwise its not going to happen, and his recovery can also be used to allow him rather effectively edge guard against Lucario's zero damage recovery.


I do have to say I hand the match up to ROB, but I lack experience playing them so what I say is mostly speculation based on movesets. Still I wouldnt consider it a terrible matchup for Lucario. That said I do have some experience playing ROB, but none playing him against a Lucario.

 

[bigman40]

Got a question. How are Charizard and Kirby advantgeous against Yoshi?

 

[Kasai]

Actually Lucario is the heaviest of the middle weights and ROB is in the middle of the Medium-Heavy weight division, they are pretty close in weight.

As far as recovery goes, both characters will probably not die from the bottom blast zone unless gimped completely, as they both have good recoveries. Lucario's aerials come out quite a bit faster than ROBs so it might be hard for ROB to edge guard him. The way I see it, there isn't really enough for it to lean either way. ROB's aerials might beat lucario's in some situations but they are also somewhat slow and easy to predict. His projectiles are both, more or less, easy to see coming and/or easy to avoid or counter (shield +throw back gyro).

 

[Crackle]

Games that allow for high levels of thinking, or even low levels of thinking, all have a norm by which pro's eventually are contented with.

Strategies are formed in dealing with the characteristics that the best players share in common, and the games eventually seem to be almost pre-set in nature due to their mastery by some.

We intend to get this mastery, and provide it for the community so as to develop the game into its own level of mastery.

Think it through before you discredit everyone on smashboards.com, k?

 

[cutter]

if G&W has a large advantage over lucario, he has a large advantage over EVERYONE.

lucarios b/fair either go through or collide with the turtle. besides marth how many characters have attacks that can do that? suddenly G&W's all-powerful powerful approach is shut down. and lucario doesnt have to put himself at risk when going for the KO, aura sphere is a great move for getting KO's, and the one time G&W misses with a smash/anything, hes going to get one. bucketing AS is a lot easier said than done, especially when lucario can combo to it immediately out of his fair, unless of course you plan on bucketing instead of airdodging at every chance you get

How exactly does Lucario's Bair/Fair go through the turtle? I have tested this and the turtle beats both attacks almost every time. Also, G&W has more good approaches than just his turtle. Ie, Dair, Nair, and Uair.

G&W's moves have very little lag. Probably his only laggy move his Fair. Smashes have IASA frames on them, so it's very hard to punish him.

I'm fully aware of the bucket's lag when you absorb projectiles, but G&W will only get punished if AS/FP is from far away. And after you absorb the third projectile, there is MUCH less lag than on the first two projectiles.

If I remember correctly, Lucario's aerials outrange GW's (other than uair and dair). His range on ftilt also outranges GW. The bucket isn't much of a problem because not only will lucario not be spamming Aura spheres but in many aura sphere situations, the lag that the bucket has will cause GW to be punished. Smashes are powerful but lucario's range allows him to avoid them and punish. Lucario has disjointed hit boxes on all but 1 or 2 of his moves. He can space and play defensively.

Sorry, but Lucario doesn't outrange G&W in the air.

Refer to the bucket comment above.

G&W also has disjoints on all but a couple moves as well. He can also space and play defensively.

I really should bring Neb, Esc, and OBM in here.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Im not ignoring you ;P
I'm playing Brawl.
Thats what cool kids do!

I'll get back to you guys in a bit.
maybe tomorrow.
But I wll get back.

What debates are going on?
G&W vs Lucario?
Ness vs Zelda?

All sound so good!
xP

edit:
For reference...

I believe the matchup between Lucario and Game and Watch to be quite far in G&W's favor. G&W will win in the air, severely limit Lucario's projectile usage, isn't affected as far as I know by the CG, and is quick enough on the ground to deal with the decently sized lag on Lucario's attacks. I face a lot of Lucarios, and I'm pretty confident on this matchup. Oh, Lucario gets wrecked by Uair stalling :s

Ness versus Zelda isn't onesided, but the advantage Ness has over Zelda is definitely there. The fact that he limits her projectile to the point that it does takes away one of her better killing methods. He has more reliable killing moves and can provide great aerial pressure that she doesn't deal with as well as most would like. He isnt a solid counter, but the matchup is his.

And G&W vs Zelda... probably a large advantage.


EDITEDIT:

The insults maybe had gone too far, but you had taken a pretty condescending tone towards me saying that I've not read the things right, when I most certainly had and you hadn't.

 

[Kasai]

How exactly does Lucario's Bair/Fair go through the turtle? I have tested this and the turtle beats both attacks almost every time. Also, G&W has more good approaches than just his turtle. Ie, Dair, Nair, and Uair.

G&W's moves have very little lag. Probably his only laggy move his Fair. Smashes have IASA frames on them, so it's very hard to punish him.

I'm fully aware of the bucket's lag when you absorb projectiles, but G&W will only get punished if AS/FP is from far away. And after you absorb the third projectile, there is MUCH less lag than on the first two projectiles.



Sorry, but Lucario doesn't outrange G&W in the air.

Refer to the bucket comment above.

G&W also has disjoints on all but a couple moves as well. He can also space and play defensively.

I really should bring Neb, Esc, and OBM in here.

Bair beats the turtle and at the very least, the two hits would collide and both people would take damage. The disjointed/lingering hitbox means that lucario can even use the move before hand and then be a safe distance away and have the hitbox still hit GW. Fair I'm not sure about because the disjointed hitbox is somewhat smaller but bair definitely has more range than the turtle.

Punishing isn't hard when you are able to be outside the range of the attack. It doesn't matter how little lag a move has because if Lucario's range is bigger, he doesn't need to attack after the actual attack, he can use his move the second he sees GW use his.

Now about the bucket and Aura Sphere. The main uses of AS is either directly after a Fair, which in some cases is unavoidable due to hitstun and in some situations, an edgeguarding tool. In either case, lucario will be close enough to GW to use another attack if he sees the bucket go up. AS can be followed by a nair, fair (both of which come out very quickly and have good range) which most likely will be able to hit GW before his bucket lag is done. At the very least, he won't be able to use an aerial in the time it takes for lucario to attack. One last thing. Any decently smart player won't throw an obvious aura sphere into a 2/3 full bucket, so don't plan on using it as an attack.

 

[Browny]

i didnt say lucario has an advantage or goes even, but it most definitely is not a large advtanage. like i said, if G&W has a large + against lucario, he has a large + against every single character except maybe olimar, snake and marth.

and dont bring the lag on lucarios smashes into things, his fsmash is best used as a spacer, nothing G&W has outranges that. whenever i play against G&W users i always finish it with an aura sphere, theres almost no need to ever use a smash attack to KO when that does the job fine.

again, its still a + for G&W, but then against every single character is a + for G&W, so it doesnt mean much

 

[Kasai]

Exactly. It's not that lucario doesn't have a disadvantage, but there just isn't anything significant enough to justify a large disadvantage for him. None of the aspects of GW's advantage are broken enough to completely destroy lucario's chance at the match.

 

[Dark Sonic]

metaknight and kirby are snake counter they can omnigay
heres a vid for those who dont know what it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhmRoAz_4CQ

You do realize that this only worked because the metaknight was on a higher player port right (he was player 4, while the Snake was player two). He it been reversed it would've been Metaknight who died.

Yet another completely stupid mechanic implemented in brawl. Controller-port based grab super armor. Lame (why couldn't they just both get hit like in melee?)

 

[Nestec]

and dont bring the lag on lucarios smashes into things, his fsmash is best used as a spacer, nothing G&W has outranges that. whenever i play against G&W users i always finish it with an aura sphere, theres almost no need to ever use a smash attack to KO when that does the job fine.

Eh...Can't G&W just Bucket the Aura Sphere?

 

[Browny]

its easier said than done. as long as lucario is holding a full charge AS, G&W has to be extremely careful, as with any other character. miss a single attack and your gone, full charge AS is very fast, if not the fastest projectile in the game in terms of the amount of frames it takes for the hitbox to come out, so unless a G&W user has the timing of a lvl 9 cpu, bucketing it is very difficult. unless you can dodge every projectile in the game and never get hit once a match, well then bucketing might be easy. but thats just not going to happen

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Bair beats the turtle and at the very least, the two hits would collide and both people would take damage. The disjointed/lingering hitbox means that lucario can even use the move before hand and then be a safe distance away and have the hitbox still hit GW. Fair I'm not sure about because the disjointed hitbox is somewhat smaller but bair definitely has more range than the turtle.

The turtle beats it out. Why?
Moves don't collide in the air
The Turtle outranges it, and this im fairly sure on. I've never had Lucario's bair have even comparable range to that of the Turtle. The lingering hitbox? G&W lingers much longer, as it provides multiple hits. Both moves don't even matchup against G&W's Bair, otherwise they could receive more credit.

The Fair is acknowledge for it's low start up and ending time, and the ability to string multiple Fairs together. It doesn't matchup to the turtle approach.

Now about the bucket and Aura Sphere. The main uses of AS is either directly after a Fair, which in some cases is unavoidable due to hitstun and in some situations, an edgeguarding tool.

Its never unavoidable because of hitstun. The start up time on the AS gives G&W, or any character, time to airdodge. Edgeguarding with AS is a Lucario favorite, but its a very bad choice against G&W. I can't count how many Lucarios have tried to do it, and unsuccessfully. The Bucket cancels momentum, and stalls in the air. Game and Watch's recovery lets him recovery after bucketing. In fact, the best time to bucket something is while off the stage.

In either case, lucario will be close enough to GW to use another attack if he sees the bucket go up. AS can be followed by a nair, fair (both of which come out very quickly and have good range) which most likely will be able to hit GW before his bucket lag is done. At the very least, he won't be able to use an aerial in the time it takes for lucario to attack. One last thing. Any decently smart player won't throw an obvious aura sphere into a 2/3 full bucket, so don't plan on using it as an attack.

First lets tackle the Fair to AS.
If G&W buckets the AS, Lucario isnt in a place where he can punish it (and theres only a small timeframe which you can because of the invincibility frames after bucketing a projectile). Why? This should be simple to see for a Lucario main. Using Aura Sphere in the air pushes Lucario back a great deal, assuming it's charged (for all purposes it should be if Lucario is doing the Fair -> AS combo. If it's Uncharged, whats the point to using it?). This puts Lucario too far away from G&W to follow up with Fair OR Nair.

If you use it as an edgeguard, you will never be able to followup with something.

So it doesnt work in either case. It MIGHT work in one, but thats assuming that its used uncharged, which is a pretty bad followup after the Fair.

And if they don't use AS ever again in the match after it's 2/3rds full, then good riddance!
one of the main uses for the bucket in a matchup is actually as a deterrent.
A Lucario without his Aura Sphere is a decidedly worse Lucario.

i didnt say lucario has an advantage or goes even, but it most definitely is not a large advtanage. like i said, if G&W has a large + against lucario, he has a large + against every single character except maybe olimar, snake and marth.

Um... what kind of skewed logic is that? Just because Lucario is at this moment at a normal disadvantage doesnt mean this is where he really should be. This is an incomplete chart that is subject to change. While Lucario is being discussed for change, theres no way that every other character who is disadvantaged should also be changed. We're talking about a single matchup, we can argue others later.

and dont bring the lag on lucarios smashes into things, his fsmash is best used as a spacer, nothing G&W has outranges that. whenever i play against G&W users i always finish it with an aura sphere, theres almost no need to ever use a smash attack to KO when that does the job fine.

And what's your point? G&W is probably the very best punisher in the game, and any character who isnt quick with spaces is at a disadvantage. TL can space with his speed, but someone like Ike is going to get punished for trying to space with his Fsmash. Oh, and something does outrange it.

OIL PANIC!

AS is a very bad choice, and the G&W's you play must be decidedly bad.

again, its still a + for G&W, but then against every single character is a + for G&W, so it doesnt mean much

You've got to be kidding me. Lucario's placement is unrelated to others. We're discussing him, not the others. He's very likely to change.

This chart doesnt show degrees of advantages/disadvantages.

Thats a very weak argument, and you shouldnt use it.

EDIT:

We're on page 151!
This is a great number to be discussing a pokemon on
In my opinion!

 

[Kasai]

First lets tackle the Fair to AS.
If G&W buckets the AS, Lucario isnt in a place where he can punish it (and theres only a small timeframe which you can because of the invincibility frames after bucketing a projectile). Why? This should be simple to see for a Lucario main. Using Aura Sphere in the air pushes Lucario back a great deal, assuming it's charged (for all purposes it should be if Lucario is doing the Fair -> AS combo. If it's Uncharged, whats the point to using it?). This puts Lucario too far away from G&W to follow up with Fair OR Nair.

The push back isn't enough that if both characters are close enough, Lucario won't be able to punish. Lucario can simply do a 2nd jump and then attack. The range on nair might not be enough to catch someone but fair has the range to hit after bucket lag if GW instantly buckets before he even see's the aura sphere.

The way I see it, GW's advantages over lucario aren't huge enough to justify a large disadvantage. He definitely has an advantage but most of the points that make it seem overly bad (aurasphere/turtle) are somewhat situational or involve situations that wouldn't happen. An example is that in a game vs GW, a lucario wouldn't be using aurasphere nearly as much, substituting other moves. Another example is that if a GW uses turtle to approach, simply double team.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

The push back isn't enough that if both characters are close enough, Lucario won't be able to punish. Lucario can simply do a 2nd jump and then attack. The range on nair might not be enough to catch someone but fair has the range to hit after bucket lag if GW instantly buckets before he even see's the aura sphere.

Having to use your second jump limits the usefulness of punishing the bucket. Neither of us know if Lucario can second jump and fair quick enough after the push to punish off the top of our heads, but it doesnt matter so much. It's a situational way to deal with bucket lag, and even if it does hit, it's just whatever damage fair inflicts including stale.

Plus this point is negligible if its the third stock of the bucket...
or he airdodges.

The way I see it, GW's advantages over lucario aren't huge enough to justify a large disadvantage. He definitely has an advantage but most of the points that make it seem overly bad (aurasphere/turtle) are somewhat situational or involve situations that wouldn't happen. An example is that in a game vs GW, a lucario wouldn't be using aurasphere nearly as much, substituting other moves. Another example is that if a GW uses turtle to approach, simply double team.

Lets make a quick check off of why G&W dominates Lucario.

-Superior killing moves: G&W's killing moves are plentiful, and Lucario is among those with very limited options. The only time he becomes a threat is when he actually gets to a high percent. This threat is negated when the opponent kills as low as G&W does. G&W can get huge leads on Lucario, where most other characters should be able to even the score. Lucario just can't.

-Edgegame: Gimping G&W is just about impossible. Not even rising Fair strings will ever put G&W far enough away that he cant recover. Lucario, on the other hand is destroyed by this. Sweet Spotted fairs from G&W push Lucario much to far out, and ledge hogging is amazingly effective unless a wall is present. It's still effective in this case. G&W's sourspotted Dsmash also pushes Lucario into bad situations. G&W does too well off the edge, and certainly has the moves to get Lucario there.

-Uair Stalling: Lucario is WRECKED by Uairing. Lucario is so floaty, and moves too little to the sideways to effectively DI out. He has no methods of getting an opening back down to the stage (like dropping bombs), except the non character specific airdodging and DIing to the ledge. These are very punishable. Dairing is typically used as Lucario, but G&W just Uairs to refresh his killing moves.

-Aerial Supremacy: This is a given. G&W will usually always win in air fights vs Lucario.

-Approaches: This is more than just approaching the opponent, which G&W excels at. This extends to the fact that Lucario has a lackluster approach game. Usually, this isn't a problem because Lucario forces approaches with AS, but G&W is a deterrent for using this move. If G&W gets a lead, Lucario HAS to approach. Lucario is in a bad spot.

-Oil Panic: We sort of covered this. Amazing deterrent, and always an amazing kill move. Out Ranges everything Lucario has, and kills at nothing. Enough said.

-Speed: This is a huge factor. G&W plays a game of hit and run, and effectively becoming the best punisher. Any character who has decent lag is usually at a disadvantage versus G&W. Lucario isn't an exception; he has little to no ways to stop G&W's hit and run play style and is troubled by not being able to use his laggy moves with G&W as a foe.

honestly, one or two of these wouldn't be an issue, but Lucario is victim to all of these.
He has very few redeeming qualities in this matchup.
It's so very stacked in G&W's favor

:[

 

[Kasai]

-Superior killing moves: G&W's killing moves are plentiful, and Lucario is among those with very limited options. The only time he becomes a threat is when he actually gets to a high percent. This threat is negated when the opponent kills as low as G&W does. G&W can get huge leads on Lucario, where most other characters should be able to even the score. Lucario just can't.

First off, it is a very common misconception that Lucario needs to have high % to kill. (Although it somewhat depends on the definition of high). At percents of 50-70, he is very capable of killing heavy characters such as DK at about 120. With a character as light as GW, it won't be a problem at all. Now, as far as moves are concerned, with a very light character like GW, all of lucario's smash attacks, bair while off stage (it outranges GW's fair), dair, Double team all are viable kill moves...in extreme cases, even ftilt and utilt can be used to kill light characters.

-Edgegame: Gimping G&W is just about impossible. Not even rising Fair strings will ever put G&W far enough away that he cant recover. Lucario, on the other hand is destroyed by this. Sweet Spotted fairs from G&W push Lucario much to far out, and ledge hogging is amazingly effective unless a wall is present. It's still effective in this case. G&W's sourspotted Dsmash also pushes Lucario into bad situations. G&W does too well off the edge, and certainly has the moves to get Lucario there.

Even if Lucario can't gimp GW (which won't be needed much due to GW's weight, Lucario is much harder to gimp than people think. The only problem with Lucario's upB is the fact that it has startup time that can be interrupted with projectiles while off stage. On the account that GW has no projectiles that could pose a threat in this case, I see little possibility of him being gimped. People underestimate the curving ability of Lucario's upB. I've, on many occasions, curved his upB from somewhat under final destination (under the lip and then some), and recovered on the stage via curving. This was done while someone was edge hogging. There aren't many characters that can do that. (The only I can think of are Pit, Rob, Pikachu and maybe Snake (with proper blast hopping).

-Uair Stalling: Lucario is WRECKED by Uairing. Lucario is so floaty, and moves too little to the sideways to effectively DI out. He has no methods of getting an opening back down to the stage (like dropping bombs), except the non character specific airdodging and DIing to the ledge. These are very punishable. Dairing is typically used as Lucario, but G&W just Uairs to refresh his killing moves.

Lucario actually has above average aerial DI. In addition, nothing ends uair spamming more than just moving off stage.

-Aerial Supremacy: This is a given. G&W will usually always win in air fights vs Lucario.

GW does, in most situations, out preform Lucario in the air, nothing to say here.

-Approaches: This is more than just approaching the opponent, which G&W excels at. This extends to the fact that Lucario has a lackluster approach game. Usually, this isn't a problem because Lucario forces approaches with AS, but G&W is a deterrent for using this move. If G&W gets a lead, Lucario HAS to approach. Lucario is in a bad spot.

Nothing stops from Lucario simply playing defensive from the start of the match, I don't see anything GW has that would force an approach. Once GW is forced to approach, Lucario can play defensively, which he excels at.

-Oil Panic: We sort of covered this. Amazing deterrent, and always an amazing kill move. Out Ranges everything Lucario has, and kills at nothing. Enough said.

We have covered this. The attack won't be a concern. Lucario won't be as detrimentally affected as some think from not using Aura Spheres. He might lose a kill move but as a I covered earlier, he has quite a few against light characters.

-Speed: This is a huge factor. G&W plays a game of hit and run, and effectively becoming the best punisher. Any character who has decent lag is usually at a disadvantage versus G&W. Lucario isn't an exception; he has little to no ways to stop G&W's hit and run play style and is troubled by not being able to use his laggy moves with G&W as a foe.

He will have to play a roll of a punisher when fighting GW. This will be somewhat detrimental.

honestly, one or two of these wouldn't be an issue, but Lucario is victim to all of these.
He has very few redeeming qualities in this matchup.
It's so very stacked in G&W's favor

After going down through all the "huge disadvantages," there aren't as many as it seemed and definitely not enough to justify a big disadvantage.

 

[Browny]

no point wasting time its never going to get changed, you should be happy another main is accepting an X instead of going all out to prove its neutral like most everyone else does here. G&W is broken we know, but its not an unwinnable situation like you make it out to be. i put it at 35:65 in the lucario boards, which isnt enough to warrant a large X, and im being extremely generous there, ive never lost to G&W user.

 

[Kasai]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176163

Here's a more recent Lucario match up thread. It's not complete yet and is definitely still a work in progress but it should replace the old unused link in the OP.

 

[metahunter]

metaknight and kirby are snake counter they can omnigay
heres a vid for those who dont know what it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhmRoAz_4CQ

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

metaknight and kirby are snake counter they can omnigay
heres a vid for those who dont know what it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhmRoAz_4CQ

no... just no:

1) if MK or kirby are in the earlier slot, they'll die instead.

2) Snake has to set it up himself... that's like sayling link should be a diddy counter because he can freeze glitch him so long as DK sets it up right

 

[User33]

Dedede's matchups really need to be redone completely, there terrible at the moment. Dedede's winning tournaments left, right, and center, and you think he has matchups like that? Honestly, rethink Dedede's mathups if you want this chart to be considered more then a joke.

 

[Brinzy]

How many of those left, right, and center victories had little to do with chain-grabs and the like?

 

[User33]

...There is absolutely nothing wrong with chaingrabbing.

 

[Remzi]

I think Marth is being given too much credit.

-Fox definitely AT LEAST breaks even with Marth. I wouldn't give Marth the advantage their.
-Same for Wolf... how does Marth have an advantage over Wolf?
-Marth is not even with Metaknight, Meta out priortizes him, is quicker, is much harder to edge guard, and can gimp Marths recovery quite easily. Why are they even?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Fox - Light. PREDICTABLE approach. Seriously he has like two approaches. Marth has a far easier time gimping him then Fox does gimping Marth.

Wolf - Gimp city. Also Very predictable one dimensional fighting style. Marth doesn't care about Wolf's Bair spacing. His lasers are powershield bait. One of the easier characters to gimp.

MK - Look, I know you have been getting owned by Forte. Look, Forte is better then you. So stop trying to say that the match isn't even just because you are losing to a better MK.

**** all you MD/VA *****s do this ****.

When I talk to great MK players they all say the same thing to me. At max potential Marth and MK go even. It's just harder for Marth to bring out his full potential and much easier for MK. Anyway, it's even because Marth has advantage on the stage, while MK has advantage off the stage. Marth shuts down MK's B moves ans forces MK to get past his range. But MK has his gimps. Still MK is light so he has less room for error.

Marth is not being given too much credit.

Do you see him pwning anyone good?

Do you seem him completely domination good characters like Snake, MK and G&W? No sir you do not. You see him going EVEN with good characters. That's not being given too much credit. That's what I call barely scraping by.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

First off, it is a very common misconception that Lucario needs to have high % to kill. (Although it somewhat depends on the definition of high). At percents of 50-70, he is very capable of killing heavy characters such as DK at about 120. With a character as light as GW, it won't be a problem at all. Now, as far as moves are concerned, with a very light character like GW, all of lucario's smash attacks, bair while off stage (it outranges GW's fair), dair, Double team all are viable kill moves...in extreme cases, even ftilt and utilt can be used to kill light characters.

It's a very common misconception that because G&W has the second lightest weight that he dies early. G&W tanks hits with exceptional DI and a great recovery. More to the point, G&W has great defensive options allowing him to space incredibly well and take far less damage than he dishes out. He's a very hard character to kill unless you have amazing killing options like Snake's Utilt.

The fact is, Lucario doesn't have spectacular options.
From the numerous mains I've faced, the Dsmash is probably the best bet. Fsmash and Usmash are pretty bad, especially if you don't want to get punished.

Bair is a bad idea, because off stage chases with attacks don't work in fights vs G&W.
Dair is shut down by Uair and is outranged slightly by Utilt.
Double team is incredibly situational, and I've on many times been able to shield the sucka using the IASA frames at the end of my smashes.

Utilt and Ftilt do a bad job at killing.

Frankly, it sounded more like you were listing off killing moves while not thinking of the matchup.

Plus, most of the stuff is hard pressed to kill.
The point still stands because G&W kills far too low for Lucario to compensate.
If G&W gets the lead, which is likely, he's peppering on loads of damage while he's out of your killing range.

G&W isn't easy to kill, and you're overestimating Lucario's killing power.
G&W kills lower and this is a bad thing considering how reliant Lucario is on his Aura.

Even if Lucario can't gimp GW (which won't be needed much due to GW's weight, Lucario is much harder to gimp than people think. The only problem with Lucario's upB is the fact that it has startup time that can be interrupted with projectiles while off stage. On the account that GW has no projectiles that could pose a threat in this case, I see little possibility of him being gimped.

Lucario has a hell of a hard time killing G&W by not being able to get him to high percents and that G&W can take away his Aura relatively easily.

Lucario is one of the easiest people to gimp. G&W is amazing in off stage chases, and the startup time is so big that G&W can easily take advantage of this and sweetspot Fair. G&W doesn't need a projectile to gimp Lucario. Another thing worth noting is that Lucario's upB doesnt deal damage, and G&W can easily latch onto it for an easy ledge hog kill. If G&W plays his cards like he should, then you should be too far away to curve your upB onto the stage, though this might change if a wall is present.

Gimping Lucario is so very easy.

Lucario actually has above average aerial DI. In addition, nothing ends uair spamming more than just moving off stage.

It's not enough to get out of the Uair, as G&W has better DI.
The two things that get you out of it are Airdodging (where G&W punishes you coming down) or DIing to the ledge (where G&W punishes you coming down). In fact, whenever he gets the Uair off on you, he's refreshing his stale move queue, and setting you up in a position to get punished.

The fact that you shrug of this point is indicative of you're lack of experience with G&W's.

Nothing stops from Lucario simply playing defensive from the start of the match, I don't see anything GW has that would force an approach. Once GW is forced to approach, Lucario can play defensively, which he excels at.

First off, he doesnt need to force an approach at the beginning of the match. He can approach, and any time he gets the lead, whether its because he kills better than you or raises percent higher, you're forced to make an approach. G&W excels at playing offensively, and really outperforms Lucario.

So G&W can approach safely, and can force Lucario into approaching whenever a lead is gained (and this is often).

We have covered this. The attack won't be a concern. Lucario won't be as detrimentally affected as some think from not using Aura Spheres. He might lose a kill move but as a I covered earlier, he has quite a few against light characters.

The attack wont be as much as a concern, but it's still there.
And he will considering that his only way to force approaches is now taken away.
AS is his best killing move as far as Im concerned, and losing this IS a huge detriment.

The bucket also unstales other moves whenever it catches something

He will have to play a roll of a punisher when fighting GW. This will be somewhat detrimental.

It's incredibly hard to punish someone so safe and quick.
This is a huge detriment, because if he has to punish to do well in this match, he's shafted.

After going down through all the "huge disadvantages," there aren't as many as it seemed and definitely not enough to justify a big disadvantage.

Actually, there all still there.
You didn't disprove them.
And for reference, Ness has less of these than Lucario, and he still has a huge disadvantage. He isnt as reliant on his projectiles, kills much better than Lucario, has approaches that are on par, and isnt affected by Uair stalling. The fact is, you don't need all to be at a big disadvantage versus G&W, but Lucario is.

no point wasting time its never going to get changed, you should be happy another main is accepting an X instead of going all out to prove its neutral like most everyone else does here. G&W is broken we know, but its not an unwinnable situation like you make it out to be. i put it at 35:65 in the lucario boards, which isnt enough to warrant a large X, and im being extremely generous there, ive never lost to G&W user.

A huge disadvantage never means it's an unwinnable match, and thats where you mess up at categorizing who should get a huge X or not. It means that he has so many advantages in this matchup that it's a largely uphill battle for the other. I still lose on occasion to a very skilled Ness main, but the advantage is ever so real.

The matchup thread you listed is a joke.
It's numbers based off your own personal experience.
The G&W boards are pretty much in total agreement that Lucario is among our easiest matchups. OmegaBlackMage, Cutter, Neb, Myself, and I'm sure many others would also agree. Lucario is at a loss here.

The fact that you never lost to one doesn't mean anything.
I've won versus the NUMEROUS Lucario mains I fight on a short basis.
I can understand not wanting a huge X for your main, but this matchup warrants it.

35:65? Lol.

 

[DanGR]

Snake is one of Kirby's worst match-ups, even with that trick.

AND! The Kirby community is currently revising our own matchup chart. Hopefully the TC will take notice and revise his chart accordingly. The old Kirby thread listed on this thread is out of date, the new one can be found here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176103

/kirby ad

wow, I discovered this a while ago. It was funny, but incredibly worthless. I've got proof too.

I think Marth is being given too much credit.

-Fox definitely AT LEAST breaks even with Marth. I wouldn't give Marth the advantage their.
-Same for Wolf... how does Marth have an advantage over Wolf?
-Marth is not even with Metaknight, Meta out priortizes him, is quicker, is much harder to edge guard, and can gimp Marths recovery quite easily. Why are they even?

Marth's matchups are solely based off what emblem lord said. He's a smart marth user that's a little biased towards marth. (Marth>/~ with every character except snake in his matchup thread.) Marth has his weaknesses though.

Edit: well, there's EL. talk to him about them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

HAHAHA!!!

You guys don't want to see what Marth's match-ups would look like if I let my bias interfere. Take for example Olimar vs Marth.

I PERSONALLY, don't think this is even at all. But I have to go by the facts and data in front of me.

 

[DanGR]

HAHAHA!!!

You guys don't want to see what Marth's match-ups would look like if I let my bias interfere. Take for example Olimar vs Marth.

I PERSONALLY, don't think this is even at all. But I have to go by the facts and data in front of me.

haha. you're asking for an arguement. Aren't you? lol

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Trust me people. EL knows his ****. Marth's matchups are basicially perfect on this chart. I wouldn't bother arguing with him, 99% of the time you'll lose >_>


Anyways, about the DDD thing.....Sure he does have some pretty bad matchups, but obviously something is missing in translation when actually applied in the tournament scene. What it is? I really have no clue

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nope.

I mean, we could, but why would I debate a match-up that is already agreed upon by both sides.

That's the thing really. The MK boards agree with the Marth boards that MK vs Marth is close. The Fox boards agree that Marth has advantage on Fox. As does the Wolf boards.

So it's like, why is a MARTH player, contesting these match-ups? Oh, I know why. Because he lives in an area with amazing players and most likely he got stomped at a tourney and now he came here to say that Marth's match-ups are wrong.

Getting stomped at a tourney is all well and good and I don't even mind that he contested the MK match-up since that one is so highly debatable. But the Fox and Wolf match-ups were given to Marth's advantage by the FOX AND WOLF BOARDS THEMSELVES. I had them as even at first, but reading thier thoughts on the match-ups convinced me. And this was about a month and half ago. Those match-ups haven't been contested since then so you can understand why I'm like...WTF?!

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I don't really agree with Marth having an advantage versus G&W.
It feels pretty ****ing even to me >___>
MK is a harder matchup than marth, and thats listed as even.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Like...both Velocity and OmegaBlackmage give this one to Marth. They are two of the best G&W's in the country. If Hylian gives it to Marth too then it's pretty much set in stone. I'll have to ask him sometime.

Anyway, MK vs G&W is even for other reasons. Mainly because MK is shield poked easier and is far lighter. G&W can kill him at some very silly percents. Also MK can't do all that much about G&W's key when he comes down with it.

Marth has some simple answers to G&W. IF G&W rushes Marth's shield with a Bair, Marth can up b. Hell, if Marth times it right Marth can up b between the hits on his shield. I have done this personally. And Marth can just counter the Dair if G&W decides to use it making it unsafe to use.

But mainly it's G&W's rushdown taking a hit that really gives Marth the nod. Also Marth does outrange G&W which makes things tougher for him.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Actually OBM doesn't see it in Marth's favor.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141781
His guide and his matchups.

Also: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174763
Our weekly matchup discussion. We're going by difficulty of matchups, and so far it's TL and MK. I see the next one as being Snake.

I don't know Velocity's view on this matchup, but oh well.
If MK is even, Marth should be too
The scenarios you brought up are a little silly, because G&W doesnt play the same way in every matchup. don't expect Bairs when Marth obviously has range to answer to that, or the Key when Marth's Usmash soundly beats that.

G&W isn't such a one trick pony that he doesnt have ways to answer to Marth

 

[Colbert]

Why does Diddy Kong have a small advantage over Lucas, but a neutral chance against Ness?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Didn't say he was a one trick pony nor did I say Marth was one of G&W's hardest match-ups. I knew black mage thought it was Marth's advantage in the past. Didn't know he changed his stance though.

Anyway, I completely disagree with him. I'll still give this to Marth and I have talked to some good MK players who think G&W has advantage on MK BTW. Just throwing that out there. Makes sense though. MK has a harder time gimping. MK dies really early. MK doesn't really have a range advantage.

Anyway, MK and Marth are two different characters. You can't say, well since MK is better then Marth and MK is even Marth should be too. It doesn't work that way.

Yes, your character is broken and mine isn't. So what? That's not the issue. The issue is match-up analysis. You want to debate me? Ok. I'm ready for ya. I was getting bored anyway.

Since I'm feeling generous, I'll shoot you one. You go first.

Edit: I looked at that match-up guide.

G&W is NOT even with Snake. LOL@his bad match-up being TL.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Toon Link is his hard matchup genius.
I'm on the fence about Snake.
But I'm not going to debate you.

I'm still pushing for G&W >> Lucario and then Im going back to respond to Yoshi vs Wario.
I just don't have the time :s

I have an idea!
Go chat up Omega or Velocity
and have fun talking Marth with them :D

Broken G&W? hehe