Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Kasai]

Again, I'm going to bring up a few points:


Gimping
There is, according to the logic you showed, a single ring of space surrounding the edge, from the underside only, that Lucario would be susceptible to an edgehog. Any closer, and he could curve/make it by simply aiming for the stage, any further away and he simply wouldn't make it at all. As far as I have seen and witnessed while playing, this doesn't happen very often. Regardless of how easy you think Lucario is to gimp, it simply isn't happening nearly as easily as you are depicting.


Killing
Lucario doesn't need "high" damage to kill people effectively. Let me say it again. Lucario Does Not Need High Damage To Kill People. It is true that at extremely low %s, he has very weak knockback but what people don't understand is that even at 50%, he can kill fine. A sweet spotted Fsmash/Dsmash or even an offstage dair is enough to kill light characters at quite low %s. It is not as big of an issue as you present it to be. Also, as safe as GW's moves are, there is always going to be a chance or mistake for Lucario to use aura sphere.

By the way, on the account that you so willingly point out that I have "lack of experience" with this matchup, it sure doesn't look like you have very good experience. Lucario DOES get aura boosts when he's behind in stock. It's been tested and proven. Don't believe me? test it yourself.


Uair Stalling
You explained how it's punishable for Lucario to air dodge through/DI to the ledge. What about DI'ing completely off stage? Also, since the move does have hitboxes, the ability to counter might be an option (I haven't tested it and can't atm but it might be a viable method to get out of uair spam).




Also, you didn't answer who these "numerous mains" are that you play against. With the amount of experience that you're flaunting, it would do your argument well to at least somehow show that they aren't completely incompetent. I'm not insulting them in any way but I would at least like to know that you have experience against a Lucario who knows that they are doing.

 

[DanGR]

Gimping
There is, according to the logic you showed, a single ring of space surrounding the edge, from the underside only, that Lucario would be susceptible to an edgehog. Any closer, and he could curve/make it by simply aiming for the stage, any further away and he simply wouldn't make it at all. As far as I have seen and witnessed while playing, this doesn't happen very often. Regardless of how easy you think Lucario is to gimp, it simply isn't happening nearly as easily as you are depicting.

being a former lucario main, I know this is true^. It's not as easy as people think to edgehog/edgeguard lucario. Sure, his recovery doesn't attack, but it has long range, Lucario can air stall, and he can wall jump.(something you didn't mention that does help a lot)

 

[Hipocrisy]

Dedede has a chaingrab vs. 27 characters, but he has... 12 advantages?
IMO, this should help him at least a bit in some match-ups, especially with characters like Yoshi, Ness, Lucas or Peach from disadvantage/neutral to neutral/advantage.
His CG can be really dangerous, and his tournament results confirm this.

 

[DMG]

Ok, I will throw my input on Lucario vs G&W. I second G&W (I actually used to main him instead of Wario but switched) and I have played some good tourney Lucario's with G&W, Wario, and 2-3 other characters so I think I know a bit about what Lucario can do as well.

First off, Gimping/Recovery:

I know about Lucario's curving, his boost from walls, and about his DI and second jump. Against most characters, this is surprisingly enough to suffice. However, against someone like G&W, he can do some pretty mean stuff to you off stage. G&W can gimp/edgeguard at least half of the cast very well and Lucario unfortunately fits in there. He can literally do 2-3 Fairs in a row and make it back with an Upb, which is pretty scary.

If you curve it to a wall, you risk the chance of him stage spiking you with an aerial, unless you are extremely good at teching. If you try to aim it from below, he has that nasty Dair to deal with, and if you try something different he has Dtilt, Dsmash, Upb, Torch, Fair, etc etc. The main reason he has a hard time getting back is not because Lucario does no damage/has no hitbox on his Upb, but because that startup lag usually gives a G&W player enough time to analyze/predict your options well enough and attempt to stop you. And then there's the problem with G&W either Uair stalling you or when you are landing on the stage with lag and having G&W Torch you or knock you back off. G&W just makes it so problematic for poor Lucario to successfully recover, while Lucario doesn't give G&W too much trouble himself while recovering, aside from his Dair and some Fair strings.

Aerials/range/attacks: I thought G&W's bair had more range than anything Lucario has, and I know you guys were having a range debate, but I don't remember what exactly was discussed lol. Other than that, I think Lucario either beats out G&W or trades hits with him. Uair stalling for G&W is still good in this fight; Lucario's Dair just isn't enough to counter the darn stalling.

On the ground, I think G&W's Dtilt out ranges everything but Lucario's Fsmash and it usually hits anyway just because it's so hard to get the spacing AND the timing for Fsmash to out range it. They both have lingering hitboxes (although I think Lucario's linger longer and for more attacks) and they both have pretty decent range on other attacks.

Bucket is a nice deterrent for AS, but even then it is still possible to get sent flying by one of those suckers if you aren't able to get out of lag or if you aren't careful.

Killing: Ah yes, the fun part. G&W has some of the most insane kill moves I have ever seen on a character as fragile as he is supposed to be. His Torch... all I can say is that you better have some excellent DI to stop that from killing you past 90%, cause it will knock you out of the park sooner than you think. Dsmash is great as well, even if you don't sweet spot it. Fair has decent knockback as well, and G&W can also go for edgeguarding kills, since he is certainly above decent in that area.

Lucario does have moves like Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, AS, and stuff like that, but they are somewhat dependent on %'s and stocks. G&W's Fsmash or Dsmash will kill around 90% or even lower everytime, unless they are stale, while Lucario's killing potential is limited by whatever % he is at. If G&W gets an early kill, he usually does a good job of keeping his lead or at least tacking on 30% or so before you finally kill him yourself. He dishes out damage a lot faster than he takes it, and trying to take the lead back from him is a pain in the a**.


So lets compare the two:

G&W has a better recovery and edgeguarding, they both have approximately the same range on attacks, G&W has better killing options, Lucario is heavier, Lucario can string attacks/combos better than G&W, and Lucario has aura benefits.

G&W does have the advantage here, but I am not so sure how much of an advantage it really is. I could see why someone would say it is a small advantage and why someone else would say it is a large advantage. It just depends on how much you value each characters strong points.

 

[poisonplatypus]

I have not really played squirtle, but i've played many people that are good with him. i seriously think that you need to change around and make his position better on the charts. and jiggs because they both have good agility and could beat many slower chars even if jiggs dies early

 

[DanGR]

I have not really played squirtle, but i've played many people that are good with him. i seriously think that you need to change around and make his position better on the charts. and jiggs because they both have good agility and could beat many slower chars even if jiggs dies early

you mind suggesting and arguing for the characters? We don't have many PT or jiggs mains in here very much. We'd appreciate your input.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Trust me on this Lucario's aura increase isn't just based on the damage counter, it is based on stock as well.

I can back this one up, Lucario gets more power if he's losing and less if he's winning...

Not that I'm on either side of the debate.

 

[Nodrak]

Dedede has a chaingrab vs. 27 characters, but he has... 12 advantages?
IMO, this should help him at least a bit in some match-ups, especially with characters like Yoshi, Ness, Lucas or Peach from disadvantage/neutral to neutral/advantage.
His CG can be really dangerous, and his tournament results confirm this.

I don't know about specific matchups but I know that some characters seem to be harder to chaingrab then others. Just because you can chaingrab Ness (for example) doesn't mean that DDD users always do it right, or even manage (or try) to grab at all. I think that's what the disadvantage is based on; DDD in general not pulling off the chaingrab as consistently. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't actually play DDD, just my input.



If you curve it to a wall, you risk the chance of him stage spiking you with an aerial, unless you are extremely good at teching.
You don't get stage spiked if you get hit while clinging to a wall.

If you try to aim it from below, he has that nasty Dair to deal with
G&W dairing off the stage is very risky, one little slipup and G&W is history. It IS possible to get out of his dair and recover by it's a lot harder then it sounds.

And then there's the problem with G&W either Uair stalling you or when you are landing on the stage with lag and having G&W Torch you or knock you back off. G&W just makes it so problematic for poor Lucario to successfully recover
We'd typically go for the edge if you're on the stage waiting for us for it's invincibility frames and then jump, attack, roll ect... from there

Lucario does have moves like Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, AS, and stuff like that, but they are somewhat dependent on %'s and stocks.
True but not as much as people seem to think. People generally fear Lucario when he's at 100% because they see one good attack send them flying, they don't see that they're usually also at higher %'s. The opponent's % is still the main factor in deciding how far they'll go, not necessarily Lucario's bonuses. Though Lucario at 150+ is lethal <.<

G&W does have the advantage here, but I am not so sure how much of an advantage it really is. I could see why someone would say it is a small advantage and why someone else would say it is a large advantage. It just depends on how much you value each characters strong points.
Agreed. I'm not sure G&W and Lucario users will be able to come to a conclusion that they both like =S

 

[Deleted member]

Guys just btw, nerfs shouldnt be taken into consideration when talkin about tier lists. That said, jiggs has an amazing buffed fair that kills, a good bair, a dair that LEADS TO REST! Thats a big one. Rest kills at around 70% so being able to land it after a dair is big. Her rollout is buffed and people can have trouble against it if they dont know what to do. Her side b, has rediculous aerial priority. Also, bowyer was winning or placing in the top 3 of tournies goin all jiggs before he left brawl mostly, and he said jiggs was probably bottom mid and that she only has a few really hard matchups. Just my imput.

 

[Hipocrisy]

I don't know about specific matchups but I know that some characters seem to be harder to chaingrab then others. Just because you can chaingrab Ness (for example) doesn't mean that DDD users always do it right, or even manage (or try) to grab at all. I think that's what the disadvantage is based on; DDD in general not pulling off the chaingrab as consistently. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't actually play DDD, just my input.

If a Dedede player can chaingrab in a serious tournament, he will do it. Also, the chaingrab is very easy: Grab>Dthrow>SCGrab>Dthrow>SCGrab>Dthrow...
It´s as simple as that, and a good Dedede player won´t do anything wrong, so almost everytime Dedede faces a character susceptible to his chaingrab, Dedede will win.
Also, AFAIK, the only character susceptible to his chaingrab that can´t be consistently chaingrabbed is Samus, who requires a pummel because move degradation.

 

[DMG]

If you curve it to a wall, you risk the chance of him stage spiking you with an aerial, unless you are extremely good at teching.
You don't get stage spiked if you get hit while clinging to a wall.

You can't get hit while clinging onto a wall? That's pretty cool, I never knew that. If that is true, then it definitely would be hard to stage spike him while he is clinging.

If you try to aim it from below, he has that nasty Dair to deal with
G&W dairing off the stage is very risky, one little slipup and G&W is history. It IS possible to get out of his dair and recover by it's a lot harder then it sounds.

Well G&W can slow fall the key to make it a lot easier to recover but yeah I know what you mean about slipping up.

And then there's the problem with G&W either Uair stalling you or when you are landing on the stage with lag and having G&W Torch you or knock you back off. G&W just makes it so problematic for poor Lucario to successfully recover
We'd typically go for the edge if you're on the stage waiting for us for it's invincibility frames and then jump, attack, roll ect... from there

What I mean is that if you do happen to get caught on the stage after your Upb ends, there is a chance that G&W can go up to you and smack you real good while you are still lagging. I don't know how much that would actually occur but it is worth considering.

Lucario does have moves like Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, AS, and stuff like that, but they are somewhat dependent on %'s and stocks.
True but not as much as people seem to think. People generally fear Lucario when he's at 100% because they see one good attack send them flying, they don't see that they're usually also at higher %'s. The opponent's % is still the main factor in deciding how far they'll go, not necessarily Lucario's bonuses. Though Lucario at 150+ is lethal <.<

Well G&W kills pretty soon, so that negates the aura bonuses to an extent. I do agree that a Lucario that is even at 80-90% can be deadly if he catches you with one of his kill moves.

G&W does have the advantage here, but I am not so sure how much of an advantage it really is. I could see why someone would say it is a small advantage and why someone else would say it is a large advantage. It just depends on how much you value each characters strong points.
Agreed. I'm not sure G&W and Lucario users will be able to come to a conclusion that they both like =S[/QUOTE]

Well hopefully we can get to a good conclusion between the two groups. I'm not heavily favored towards any side and I personally think it is only a small advantage, but I will let you guys debate how much of an advantage it really is.

 

[Brinzy]

seriously, zelda mains do NOT find earthbounders big problems... it's 6:4 at WORST and is probably not even that bad.

That's false, the first part. Those who don't find the Earthbounders difficult have never played a decent Ness or Lucas. They certainly don't all think they run even with them. 6:4 = slight disadvantage for Zelda, which is *exactly* what that small x means.

 

[gantrain05]

That's false. They certainly don't all think they run even with them. 6:4 = slight disadvantage for Zelda, which is *exactly* what that small x means.

i don't know, as an earthbounder i really don't have problems with zelda, i guess its just the people u play huh.

 

[Brinzy]

i don't know, as an earthbounder i really don't have problems with zelda, i guess its just the people u play huh.

What are you saying? The guy believes that Zelda runs even with the Earthbounders, and as an Earthbounder player, I'm saying that this is not the case, and that Zelda has a lot weighing against her, yet I still say she deserves 6:4 and nothing more harsh. There's a thread in the Zelda board if you want to see it.

 

[gantrain05]

What are you saying? The guy believes that Zelda runs even with the Earthbounders, and as an Earthbounder player, I'm saying that this is not the case, and that Zelda has a lot weighing against her, yet I still say she deserves 6:4 and nothing more harsh. There's a thread in the Zelda board if you want to see it.

yeah i got where ur coming from, but im on the other side of the fence if u will, i think both the earthbounders have a 6:4 against zelda, imo they completely kill zeldas spacing game and force her to approach, but they can make it hard for her to approach with pkf and such, just my opinion tho, but by no means am i saying zelda is a piece of cake, yeah she's annoying but i just find ways around it i guess =/

 

[xxmaliciousxx]

This thread was obviously made with extreme Game and Watch bias.
Ganondorf should have an advantage over Zelda.
His down-b nuetralizes her side-b.

 

[Brinzy]

yeah i got where ur coming from, but im on the other side of the fence if u will, i think both the earthbounders have a 6:4 against zelda, imo they completely kill zeldas spacing game and force her to approach, but they can make it hard for her to approach with pkf and such, just my opinion tho, but by no means am i saying zelda is a piece of cake, yeah she's annoying but i just find ways around it i guess =/

I'm... saying she's 6:4 Earthbounder as well. So is he. However, he wants to make it Zelda = Ness and Zelda = Lucas, and I'm arguing that Zelda < Ness and Zelda < Lucas.

In short, we're on the same side here.

His down-b nuetralizes her side-b.

... That's only one tiny, nearly insignificant thing. Wanna get around that? Blow up Din's behind him, out of range from his foot but still in range with the rest of his body.

 

[gantrain05]

I'm... saying she's 6:4 Earthbounder as well. So is he. However, he wants to make it Zelda = Ness and Zelda = Lucas, and I'm arguing that Zelda < Ness and Zelda < Lucas.

In short, we're on the same side here.

lol k, sorry bout that i misunderstood u, thought u were sayin zelda was 6:4, GO EARTHBOUNDERS lol.

 

[Nodrak]

If you curve it to a wall, you risk the chance of him stage spiking you with an aerial, unless you are extremely good at teching.
You don't get stage spiked if you get hit while clinging to a wall.

You can't get hit while clinging onto a wall? That's pretty cool, I never knew that. If that is true, then it definitely would be hard to stage spike him while he is clinging.

You can get hit while clinging to a wall, but you wont get stage spiked when your hit. A stage spike is when the stage bounces you down the same way a spike would, Lucario would bounce off the wall but usually upwards not down.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

maybe I haven't played enough earthbounders then, but seriously they are no big problems for me.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

even through i have not had any problems with the eathbounders i have fought with zelda i would think that with there move set and size they would have a small advantage 6:4 on zelda. A 6:4 is not a big deal it's almost an even fight all it means is the zelda will have to put a little more effort into the fight

Also i hope that ganondorf>zelda post was just a joke, it seems like it was just a joke since the only reason that was given was that ganon's down b beats zelda's side B. I wont go into detail as to why zelda beats ganon b/c most if not almost everyone agrees that zelda>ganon.

 

[gantrain05]

even through i have not had any problems with the eathbounders i have fought with zelda i would think that with there move set and size they would have a small advantage 6:4 on zelda. A 6:4 is not a big deal it's almost an even fight all it means is the zelda will have to put a little more effort into the fight

Also i hope that ganondorf>zelda post was just a joke, it seems like it was just a joke since the only reason that was given was that ganon's down b beats zelda's side B. I wont go into detail as to why zelda beats ganon b/c most if not almost everyone agrees that zelda>ganon.

NO WAYZ GANON IS GOD TIER! lol not really, but surprisingly he doesn't really do ALL that bad against zelda compared to some of his other matchups, i'd say maybe 3:7

 

[DMG]

You can get hit while clinging to a wall, but you wont get stage spiked when your hit. A stage spike is when the stage bounces you down the same way a spike would, Lucario would bounce off the wall but usually upwards not down.

I was talking about FD cause it has the curve and maybe Battlefield or Smashville. I thought you were saying that he is invulnerable while wall clinging (That would be pretty sweet )

 

[Nodrak]

Are you sure you dont mean edge-grabbing not wall cling?

Even FD wont stage spike him (tried it myself). Battlefield... There's no point in hitting Lucario since he cant recover from that point anyway. Smashville cant be cling to (except by edgecling which we still don't know how to do consistantly)

But yeah, Lucario would be awesome with invincibility frames on the cling =D

 

[DMG]

Are you sure you dont mean edge-grabbing not wall cling?

Even FD wont stage spike him (tried it myself). Battlefield... There's no point in hitting Lucario since he cant recover from that point anyway. Smashville cant be cling to (except by edgecling which we still don't know how to do consistantly)

No I was talking about the wall cling. I spiked a Lucario once while he was touching the lower part of FD during his wall cling so I thought you could spike him consistently maybe? That's the only stage I have done it on and I didn't know if it applied to BF or Smashville or something like that.

 

[TLMarth]

There's now a better match-up thread for Toon Link.

 

[Nodrak]

No I was talking about the wall cling. I spiked a Lucario once while he was touching the lower part of FD during his wall cling so I thought you could spike him consistently maybe? That's the only stage I have done it on and I didn't know if it applied to BF or Smashville or something like that.

Interesting, but yeah Battle Field and Smashville aren't really clingable, not to a point that would ever be done in a match anyway. Anyway we should probably get back on the discussion of matchups =S

 

[DanGR]

Also i hope that ganondorf>zelda post was just a joke, it seems like it was just a joke since the only reason that was given was that ganon's down b beats zelda's side B. I wont go into detail as to why zelda beats ganon b/c most if not almost everyone agrees that zelda>ganon.

Actually, I'd back this up. Ganon doesn't have a problem sitting outside her hitbox. She has problems racking damage on the big guy. downb>sideb does help ganon immensely. It means that Zelda can't just spam her projectile, giving Ganon some time and room to space. But hey, I'm no Zelda or Ganon main though. I'm not willing to get into a discussion over it. Just my guess why he says Ganon>Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

even through i have not had any problems with the eathbounders i have fought with zelda i would think that with there move set and size they would have a small advantage 6:4 on zelda. A 6:4 is not a big deal it's almost an even fight all it means is the zelda will have to put a little more effort into the fight

Also i hope that ganondorf>zelda post was just a joke, it seems like it was just a joke since the only reason that was given was that ganon's down b beats zelda's side B. I wont go into detail as to why zelda beats ganon b/c most if not almost everyone agrees that zelda>ganon.

seriosly... he can't get through her smashes... he might have even a big disadvatage on her. He just can;t approach well. Also, he's poorly matched-up vs. sheik so he's got a sever diadvantage against anyone who can play both

 

[DanGR]

seriosly... he can't get through her smashes... he might have even a big disadvatage on her. He just can;t approach well. Also, he's poorly matched-up vs. sheik so he's got a sever diadvantage against anyone who can play both

you haven't played against ganon have you...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah I have... and my zelda destroys him. Her Fsmash rejects GDorf's Side+B... her Usmash rejects all of his aerials...all he's got to reliably approach is his Down+B which gets VERY predictable

 

[talkingbeatles]

yeah I have... and my zelda destroys him. Her Fsmash rejects GDorf's Side+B... her Usmash rejects all of his aerials...all he's got to reliably approach is his Down+B which gets VERY predictable

What about Ganon's uair, and down b? Also, his running A is pretty **** powerful. I don't think it's too bad of a match-up against Zelda. Although I haven't played many Zelda players, I second Ganon, and don't think the fight is in anybodies favor.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

What about Ganon's uair, and down b? Also, his running A is pretty **** powerful. I don't think it's too bad of a match-up against Zelda. Although I haven't played many Zelda players, I second Ganon, and don't think the fight is in anybodies favor.

Uair is good against her recovery, but it's a lousy approach, it doesn't get through Zelda's attacks.

I know G-Forf's dash is strong, but it lacks the priority to actually make it through her Fsmash. Wizard's foot will work, but, since it's his only reliable approach, it becomes predictable and easily punished if shielded.

Basically, the match proceedes with Zelda baiting G-Dorf into attacking her by forcing the issue with Din's. Then, once he tries to approach, she uses her awesome defensive game to reject him. Really, G-dorf is Putty in Zelda's hand so long as she's patient enough not to make any rash decisions.

 

[Dark Sonic]

What about Ganon's uair, and down b? Also, his running A is pretty **** powerful. I don't think it's too bad of a match-up against Zelda. Although I haven't played many Zelda players, I second Ganon, and don't think the fight is in anybodies favor.

Doesn't uair get beat by Zelda's up smash?
And I definately can't see Ganon's dash attack going through her f-smash.

And having one or two approach options, both of which are predictable and very punishable, while at the same time not having many good defensive options, is typically a bad thing in a matchup.

 

[DanGR]

yeah I have... and my zelda destroys him. Her Fsmash rejects GDorf's Side+B... her Usmash rejects all of his aerials...all he's got to reliably approach is his Down+B which gets VERY predictable

how about ganondorf walks up to you and jabs. That's a good approach. He can fake her out too. He's not going to be stupid and just jump over you.

Uair is good against her recovery, but it's a lousy approach, it doesn't get through Zelda's attacks.

I know G-Forf's dash is strong, but it lacks the priority to actually make it through her Fsmash. Wizard's foot will work, but, since it's his only reliable approach, it becomes predictable and easily punished if shielded.

Basically, the match proceedes with Zelda baiting G-Dorf into attacking her by forcing the issue with Din's. Then, once he tries to approach, she uses her awesome defensive game to reject him. Really, G-dorf is Putty in Zelda's hand so long as she's patient enough not to make any rash decisions.

if she uses din's he can wizard's foot her to death. She can't just play defensive the whole match. If ganon gets the first strike, he can just camp and be defensive. He won't just charge at Zelda mindlessly. That's stupid. You can't assume that she can guess what he's going to do every approach. If he can get one hit on zelda, he can follow up while she's in the air. This is how Sonic makes his living.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

how about ganondorf walks up to you and jabs. That's a good approach. He can fake her out too. He's not going to be stupid and just jump over you.

Except zelda has a pletora of moves which outrange G-dorf's jab... so, no, it's not a good approach.

if she uses din's he can wizard's foot her to death. She can't just play defensive the whole match. If ganon gets the first strike, he can just camp and be defensive. He won't just charge at Zelda mindlessly. That's stupid. You can't assume that she can guess what he's going to do every approach. If he can get one hit on zelda, he can follow up while she's in the air. This is how Sonic makes his living.

Wizard's foot doesn't cover enough distance to legitimately counter Dins unless he's close.

 

[Nestec]

Hey, just a random question, but do you guys think the SBRers create their own match-up chart before they make the final tier list?

I really hope so; no offense, IvanEva, but this match-up chart is probably never going to get close to accurate (that is, unless sides can come to agreements in debates). The closest thing we can get to a "perfect match-up chart" is one from the SBRers themselves. ^__^

 

[talkingbeatles]

Hey, just a random question, but do you guys think the SBRers create their own match-up chart before they make the final tier list?

I really hope so; no offense, IvanEva, but this match-up chart is probably never going to get close to accurate (that is, unless sides can come to agreements in debates). The closest thing we can get to a "perfect match-up chart" is one from the SBRers themselves. ^__^

I could see this match-up chart getting finally "perfected" if IvanEva designates a match-up to be discussed like every week, or every four days.
Something along those lines. I mean, we have enough info and experience among all of us here, it's just a bit disorganized.

 

[DanGR]

Except zelda has a pletora of moves which outrange G-dorf's jab... so, no, it's not a good approach.

what, you're just going to time your fsmash perfectly? The point of jab is b/c it's quick. I can run up to you just out of hitbox range and wait for your fsmash to come. You can't time it perfectly every time.

Wizard's foot doesn't cover enough distance to legitimately counter Dins unless he's close.

It sure does. I can't see what you're getting at.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

what, you're just going to time your fsmash perfectly? The point of jab is b/c it's quick. I can run up to you just out of hitbox range and wait for your fsmash to come. You can't time it perfectly every time.


It sure does. I can't see what you're getting at.

umm... no... let's assume Gdorf gets right outside of Fsamsh range and zelda whiffs an Fsmash.... his jab still can't reach her without him moving forward... and at that point, she can whack him with something else.... she has moves which are faster than Fsmash if she needs them, you know... like Dtilt, her own jab.... also,, her Dtilt will set you up for pain and dodge your jab...

and wizard's foot is NOT I repeat NOT a counter for Din's