Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i find it kinda funny that neither one of us has thrown out the idea that this might be an even fight (i do still think zelda>ddd)

Its odd b/c we can both agree that to both of us this fight if one does have the advantage it would be a 6:4 which really means nothing. Any one could win in a 6:4 fight with out it being an upset

also i want to say this has been a good discusion so far it has been peacful and we have both been civil. Which is nice b/c i have seen(read) some arguments which just got nasty and ended with both parties losing there points and just seeming like bad/annoying people.

 

[Umpadumpalump]

Just the fact that you can forget about Diddy's bananas shows your experience in this matchup. How the hell do you not think of bananas when thinking of Diddy?

The Diddys I face don't throw bananas all that much so it's not the first thing I think of.

Diddy doesn't need to aerial approach, to be honest, but it is still very good and aerial approaches are not completely shut down. On the ground, Diddy can run circles around Samus with bananas, and she has no defense against them. A halfway decent Diddy always finds way to make bananas connect. On the ground, side b has enough priority and cuts through most of what Samus has.

Dodging is a viable defense for bananas. Side b isn't game breaking unless it's used off the stage, and super missles stop it.

lol. Have you ever played a Diddy? Most of his moves link together perfectly, especially throwing in bananas. He can cartwheel, combo, throw, or smash out of any glide toss. Samus also has tons of punishable attacks.

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't call for a neutral. I guess we're assuming that the players are horrbile at dodging so yeah I guess Diddy does have an advantage.

 

[Affinity]

Meta Knight's Matchup Thread link needs to be updated:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175321

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't know what the DDD forums think, but Zelda mains consider DDD one of her easier matchups... because Zelda is a DDD counter.

It's been stated before in many places why this is the case. but, basically, she CAN outcamp waddledee more often than waddle dees can oucamp her, DDD is the easiest character to sweetspot with her airials he has trouble DIing out of her smashes, his apporach game <<< her defense game. She can utterly punish his recovery in addition to most any apporach.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why should Ganon be the one to approach? think about it. He can just sit outside of her range and wait for HER to approach if he has the lead.(even by 2%)

I dunno, maybe it's because Zelda has a projectile, a **** good one at that. And no, you can't expect to dodge it every time, there are more then enough techniques to keep it in the target zone long enough for the spotdodge/airdodge to expire that you need accurate prediction.

If it's close enough for you to be able to punish with Wizard's foot, she doesn't need to approach... she's in melee range already.

DDD is a big character, but he has the advantage over Zelda? The fact that he's big shouldn't complete you argument. His bair goes through everything Zelda has, and that's all he needs.

Unless that one attack totally ***** everything Zelda has, it's just not enough. And it doesn't. It's no shine.

It seems like you're not giving ganon enough credit. He has some ways to approach if he must, and he kills very early against her. Edgeguarding her is easy, and once she's tossed into the air, you better run and get the butter, cuz she's toast.

Her Aerial game is stronger, better range, more options, and more killing power (sure, a couple of them need to be sweet-spotted, but Ganondorf is BIG), and her very precise teleport is incredibly difficult to edge-guard against.

As for STH's accuracy, Zelda is not perfect. Ganon WILL get inside of her, and he's great at following up. She only has to mess up once for Ganon to beat out her brains with his several killing options.

But she doesn't need Ganondorf to mess up to beat out his brains...

That's really what kills Ganondorf in general as far as match-ups are concerned, he has no way to control a match, he just has to wait and hope that the opponent messes up, and because he is so slow, it has to be in a big way.

If you still think I'm totally wrong about everything I'm saying, then fine. I'll stop. I'd much rather get a Ganon main in here to discuss this with y'all.

Bring in Sliq, or somebody else that's respectable. I'm sure they'd say the same thing that we are.

You have to accept your character's weaknesses, Ganondorf is bottom tier, and will probably be so for a while, (just about) all the rest of us who use Ganondorf have accepted this and are better players because of it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You're right I forgot about those bananas, but him throwing them out gives the Samus player time to react.

So does snake setting up a mine and look how that turns out.

And for his approach I wasn't talking about stopping them with projectiles. Samus has several attacks to stop his aerial approach.

name them please because to my knowledge she doesn't stop it, especially if he is chucking bananas at the time.
He whores them.

I, personally have little problem stopping Sonic. Zair can stop most of his aerial approaches, and on the ground he only has the advantage when he's close due to his range.

Spincharge/dash under the Zair.
Missiles are destroyed by spincharge/dash

spindash goes through her charge beam/missiles/bombs/every single move.

Dash shield grab increases his grab range that sets her up aerially.

Okay well how is he going to rack damage?

ASC=31%-43% damage
Or simply using a spincharge/dash or using his grabs or using his tilts.

For Diddy his bananas, aerial game, his dash to Usmash are excellent methods of gaining damage.
Diddy is arguably one of the best approachers in the game due to how incredibly effective those bananas are for his game. The fact he can glide toss decently shows how beeneficial they are to his game.

until you turn them around on him.
Which is why he kinda hates sonic at times.

bananas~>Fsmash hurts Diddy

Are those means enough to give him the advantage?

yes because not only are they hard to predict and extremely fast, but are very effective.

Even so, she can still get away again.

She can't get away from sonic, he chases down Fox and Captain Falcon after he's smacked them across the other side.
Once sonic gets on her (or diddy) unless he screws up his spacing and pressuring it'll be difficult to regain the momentum of the match.

The Diddys I face don't throw bananas all that much so it's not the first thing I think of.

Then they suck balls, Diddy's bananas are incredible for his gameplay.

Dodging is a viable defense for bananas. Side b isn't game breaking unless it's used off the stage, and super missles stop it.

No they aren't, again glide tossing eliminates the point of dodging.
Her side dodge is also slow so yeah she side dodges she eats a Fsmash/Dsmash.
She spot dodges she gets nailed by an Fsmash

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't call for a neutral. I guess we're assuming that the players are horrbile at dodging so yeah I guess Diddy does have an advantage.

Except dodging isn't a viable means of her facing Diddy, he overwhelmns the defensive game, you either have to shield (which can get you grabbed) dodge (where glide tossing leads to a Fsmash that stays out a bit) or a dash attack~>Usmash.


Diddy is not a character you can camp against very easily.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ ShadowLink: I was reading your argument and just realized something... is spindash neutralB, sideB, downB or just a collective term for all three specials?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Spindash is over B
Spin charge is Down B
neutral B is homing attack and is never considered a part of the spindashing thing.


some sonic mains refer to spindash/charge as spindash when speaking generically.
I tend to be more specific.

The spindash and charge are different ONLY when they are initially started.

once the side B hits the ground after hopping it becomes a down B spin charge.
Interesting how they change yes?

 

[Peach_rules]

thanks! This helps a lot.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Spindash is Side B, neutral B is Homing Attack, and down B is spincharge.

Edit : SL beat me to it (:

 

[ShadowLink84]

You're Too Slooow!

 

[Kiwikomix]

You're Too Slooow!

LoL

10videogamereferences

 

[ShadowLink84]

Irony is winnage

 

[DanGR]

y'all, I don't care about the gdorf v zelda matchup anymore.

i find it kinda funny that neither one of us has thrown out the idea that this might be an even fight (i do still think zelda>ddd)

Its odd b/c we can both agree that to both of us this fight if one does have the advantage it would be a 6:4 which really means nothing. Any one could win in a 6:4 fight with out it being an upset

also i want to say this has been a good discusion so far it has been peacful and we have both been civil. Which is nice b/c i have seen(read) some arguments which just got nasty and ended with both parties losing there points and just seeming like bad/annoying people.

I agree, but y'all, I don't care about the gdorf v zelda matchup anymore.

I don't know what the DDD forums think, but Zelda mains consider DDD one of her easier matchups... because Zelda is a DDD counter.

It's been stated before in many places why this is the case. but, basically, she CAN outcamp waddledee more often than waddle dees can oucamp her, DDD is the easiest character to sweetspot with her airials he has trouble DIing out of her smashes, his apporach game <<< her defense game. She can utterly punish his recovery in addition to most any apporach.

I have to say, you're very unrealistic dude. VERY unrealistic. You're probably a Zelda fanatic that doesn't even play brawl. You probably just sit around watching combo vids all day cuz you like the way Zelda moves her legs or somethin. You never know anything about sheik, like you say you do, maining him behind Zelda and all. You never know ANY of her matchups. You say Zelda is good against everyone, and if she isn't then Sheik is. you must not have played any good DDDs either if you think DDD's bair is <<<to zelda's defense. I'm not going to discuss ANY matchups with you b/c it bugs me and I don't want to say something that I'll regret later. So, quit addressing me.

good grief

 

[adumbrodeus]

I agree, but y'all, I don't care about the gdorf v zelda matchup anymore.

I have to say, you're very unrealistic dude. VERY unrealistic. You probably don't even play brawl. You probably just sit around watching combo vids all day. You never know anything about sheik, like you say you do, maining him behind Zelda and all. You never know ANY of her matchups. You say Zelda is good against everyone, and if she isn't then Sheik is. you must not have played any good DDDs either if you think DDD's bair is <<<to zelda's defense. I'm not going to discuss ANY matchups with you b/c it bugs me and I don't want to say something that I'll regret later. So, quit addressing me.

I know you're not addressing me, but you haven't pointed to any of Zelda's disadvantages (at least as far as I have seen), if Zelda has an advantage, why should he roll over? That's not being a blind fanboy, that's being realistic. You have one Deedeedee mainer saying it's a SLIGHT advantage, and the vast majority of the community saying that it's the opposite, that Zelda has the edge.

Deedeedee's bair just isn't Godly enough to account for a lack of other safe approaches, and Zelda outspams Deedeedee, if only because Din's obliterates shields...

If you have legitimate counters explaining WHY Zelda doesn't beat Deedeedee, or maybe... better yet, evidence, then present it. One good move just isn't enough.

 

[DanGR]

I know you're not addressing me, but you haven't pointed to any of Zelda's disadvantages (at least as far as I have seen), if Zelda has an advantage, why should he roll over? That's not being a blind fanboy, that's being realistic. You have one Deedeedee mainer saying it's a SLIGHT advantage, and the vast majority of the community saying that it's the opposite, that Zelda has the edge.

I didn't address you, and I respect your opinion. I've had SEVERAL matchups discussed with STH, though, and it's just totally ridiculous what he says about EVERY one of them. He had the audacity to say that

-Pikmin toss is outcamped by din's
-FW is a good approach(situational he said, but still)
-Zelda has the advantage on the ground v Olimar(a while ago, but still)
-that zelda has a good approach game
-that ness or lucas are in fact not considered counters to zelda by the zelda boards and that they regard them as nuetral
-that zelda's upsmash and fsmash outrange and outprioritze every one of Pikachu's and squirtle's approaches, totally disregarding pikachu's projectile and squirtle's size advantage
-if STH had his way with the matchup chart, Zelda would have only 2 disadvantages.(marth and GaW)
-etc., the list goes on and on and on and on.

As for the DDD main, I think he's right. Might I add that every other person talking about the matchup is a zelda main.

Deedeedee's bair just isn't Godly enough to account for a lack of other safe approaches, and Zelda outspams Deedeedee, if only because Din's obliterates shields...

It totally is. It's his best move by far, and besides GaW broken bair, it's very arguably the best bair in the game.

DDD outranges Zelda with ftilt and in close combat I think he wins there also. Here is why:
-DDD's grab range is very good-good enough to get zelda out of his face.
-ftilt, uptilt, and dtilt are fast and space extremely well.

If you have legitimate counters explaining WHY Zelda doesn't beat Deedeedee, or maybe... better yet, evidence, then present it. One good move just isn't enough.

One good move isn't enough, but it can help a lot. I don't have any videos of the matchup I can show you, and I couldn't find any anywhere, but feel free to show me some.

Here's some of my arguements:
-bair outprioritizes and outranges all of zelda's aerials except upair.
-bair makes for an almost perfect approach. A tactic that DDD can use is to float above Zelda, baiting an upsmash. He then ffbair onto her in her afterlag. It's very reliable.
-bair edgeguarding: DDD can edgeguard her without trouble, bairing and gimping her with his WoP.
-bair outprioritizes din's, thus the long lasting hitbox on that move helps his approaching.
-grab, ftilt, uptilt, and dtilt space DDD from Zelda VERY well.
-ftilt and bair make for very reliable approaches.
-Zelda's fsmash and upsmash walls DO NOT have invincibility from everyone.(that's for you STH)

 

[Umpadumpalump]

So does snake setting up a mine and look how that turns out.

Hardly get hit by em, even if I walk over them

name them please because to my knowledge she doesn't stop it, especially if he is chucking bananas at the time.
He whores them.

For the air usmash, uair, fair, zair, sometimes nair. For the ground dtilt, utilt, ftilt and sometimes f&dsmash; but since Diddy will always undoubtebly have a banana I don't see how that matters.

Spincharge/dash under the Zair.
Missiles are destroyed by spincharge/dash

spindash goes through her charge beam/missiles/bombs/every single move.

Dash shield grab increases his grab range that sets her up aerially.

ASC=31%-43% damage
Or simply using a spincharge/dash or using his grabs or using his tilts.

I wasn't talking about Sonic...

For Diddy his bananas, aerial game, his dash to Usmash are excellent methods of gaining damage.
Diddy is arguably one of the best approachers in the game due to how incredibly effective those bananas are for his game. The fact he can glide toss decently shows how beeneficial they are to his game.

until you turn them around on him.
Which is why he kinda hates sonic at times.

bananas~>Fsmash hurts Diddy

That was my point.If Samus turns the bananas around on Diddy not only will she not be burdened by them, but Diddy will be. Considering that Bananas seem to be a base for his offense it could really turn the game around.

yes because not only are they hard to predict and extremely fast, but are very effective.

Fast, yes. Effective, yes. I wouldn't say hard to predict though. He slowly tosses a banana behind him, and picks it up, I 'm gonna know what he'll do next.

No they aren't, again glide tossing eliminates the point of dodging.
Her side dodge is also slow so yeah she side dodges she eats a Fsmash/Dsmash.
She spot dodges she gets nailed by an Fsmash

Bombs can replace side dodging at a decent range and Fmash/Dsmash can be avoided with proper spacing.

Except dodging isn't a viable means of her facing Diddy, he overwhelmns the defensive game, you either have to shield (which can get you grabbed) dodge (where glide tossing leads to a Fsmash that stays out a bit) or a dash attack~>Usmash.


Diddy is not a character you can camp against very easily.

You make glide tossing seem unconditional, so Diddy can do this practically at any time with little to no effort? You don't really camp with Samus anyway, that's only useful when on the opposite side of the stage.

Also, we can't just put out Samus' projectiles. Yes, they can be stopped a number of ways, but that doesn't make them completely ineffective. If I can hit a Fox or a Pit or a Wolf, I can hit a Diddy.

Aside from that, though, I'll just leave it alone for now. I'll come back when I get more experience facing Diddys.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I didn't address you, and I respect your opinion. I've had SEVERAL matchups discussed with STH, though, and it's just totally ridiculous what he says about EVERY one of them. He had the audacity to say that

-Pikmin toss is outcamped by din's

and it is, at long distances... true, you have to have Olimar in a position that's far away to use it, but it's better when that's the case... also, din's isn't hampered by platforms in the same way as pikmin throw. Din's is legitimately better in some situations, and when those situations aren't present, it's still not a bad move... you keep assuming that Zelda would retartedly spam Din's even when it is easily punishable.

-FW is a good approach(situational he said, but still)

it IS a good, situational approach. if the enemy predicts it and sheilds, you can appear outside their grab range instead of on top of them and, depending on the matchup, you might have an advantageous position doing this... but, when the foe is STILL at an advantage no matter what you do with FW as long as he can predict it, then you don't use it.

-Zelda has the advantage on the ground v Olimar(a while ago, but still)

depends on the situation. If zelda gets to apply pressure, she can easily get olimar off the edge for an easy edgeguard kill... example -> DTilt to Dsmash to edgehog

-that zelda has a good approach game

I don't think I EVER said that... I've said that Zelda's approach is average at best... and I've merely stated that making zelda take an offensive does not instantly make her lose. She DOES have approach options despite the fact she's defensive. It's just ignorant to pretend that Zelda DOESN'T HAVE an approach game, even if it is far inferior to her defensive game.

-that ness or lucas are in fact not considered counters to zelda by the zelda boards and that they regard them as nuetral

I said we should reveiw them again and that a lot of zelda mains don;t ind them counters... that's true. And I stand by it.. it's not a terribel matchup.

-that zelda's upsmash and fsmash outrange and outprioritze every one of Pikachu's and squirtle's approaches, totally disregarding pikachu's projectile and squirtle's size advantage

ummm.they do!... pika's projectile is DESTROYED by din's fire and nayru's love. seriously... for either of them to get inside of her, she has to make a mistake... Squirtle has it easier because he gets inside people easily. Regardless, it's the same thing as the G-Dorf matchup... Pika and Squirtle don't have to make mistakes for Zelda to punish them...Zelda does for them to get inside of her.

-if STH had his way with the matchup chart, Zelda would have only 2 disadvantages.(marth and GaW)

I beleive, at this point, those are the only matchups proven to be bad... more might arise later, but, right now she's hard to outmatch (snake might be able to beat her too, but most of the boards seem to think it's even... maybe they know something I don't)
-

etc., the list goes on and on and on and on.

But I never claimed that Ganondorf could outcamp zelda and was thusly a favourable matchup <_< it doesn;t get much worse than that... period... then you tried to justify your assesment by saying: Not all big characters are instantly bad against zelda and giving DDD, one of Zelda's best matchups, as an example... for shame... you should have used Ike, Snake or ROB.

It totally is. It's his best move by far, and besides GaW broken bair, it's very arguably the best bair in the game.

too bad, unlike G&W's... it doesn't go through Zelda's defensive smashes

DDD outranges Zelda with ftilt and in close combat I think he wins there also. Here is why:
-DDD's grab range is very good-good enough to get zelda out of his face.
-ftilt, uptilt, and dtilt are fast and space extremely well.

if he's close enough to grab or Utilt, Zelda will normally be close enough to do something else even faster... as for Ftilt, it's great, but it's not enough to overcome his glaring weaknesses approaching zelda... and it's not like it's easy for him to completely safely get into position to Ftilt her

Here's some of my arguements:
-bair outprioritizes and outranges all of zelda's aerials except upair.
-bair makes for an almost perfect approach. A tactic that DDD can use is to float above Zelda, baiting an upsmash. He then ffbair onto her in her afterlag. It's very reliable.
-bair edgeguarding: DDD can edgeguard her without trouble, bairing and gimping her with his WoP.
-bair outprioritizes din's, thus the long lasting hitbox on that move helps his approaching.
-grab, ftilt, uptilt, and dtilt space DDD from Zelda VERY well.
-ftilt and bair make for very reliable approaches.
-Zelda's fsmash and upsmash walls DO NOT have invincibility from everyone.(that's for you STH)

-DDD is great Vs. zelda in the air... so long as he's not being pressured into a lighting kick... but Zelda tends to control the pace of the match so, ideally, she won't be in the air much.
- But, unfortunately for him, Bair doesn't beat Zelda's defensive smashes... she has to make a mistake or he can't get in.
- if She puts din's on the other side of him, Din's will still connect... ALMOST ANYTHING outprioritizes din's it's not an accomplishment... it's nice, but she can find ways around it.
- He can harras with Bair, and can kill her at higher damages, but it doesn't really tend to gimp her.
- not so much with Dtilt, grab or Utilt, but Ftilt can space... but it's only one move.
- this is just a repetition of earlier points... and I'll reiterate.. they are good approaches... but not great approaches... especially against Zelda.
-That's true... which is the man reason she suffers so mucha against Marth and G&W... they get through the smashes easily... DDD does not, neither do squirtle or pika.

and, even if all those things were true... it doesn't change the points brought up earlier about why zelda is advantaged in the matchup.

 

[DanGR]

this^ is obvious proof to everyone of what I'm talking about.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

this^ is obvious proof to everyone of what I'm talking about.

that what? I make legitimate arguments and you do not?

you really can't call me out on this considering it's YOU that's against the majority here... and it's YOU who says that meaningless posts, such as the one you just made, have no place in this thread... it's always nice to see a man come face to face with his values and then shove them in the mud so he can crawl over them

 

[adumbrodeus]

I didn't address you, and I respect your opinion. I've had SEVERAL matchups discussed with STH, though, and it's just totally ridiculous what he says about EVERY one of them. He had the audacity to say that

I know I said that, I wanted to address the fact that you dismissed his opinions out of hand.

-Pikmin toss is outcamped by din's

Ok, no, it doesn't out-camp Pikmin toss.

-FW is a good approach(situational he said, but still)

It's usable on occassion, it's precision makes it much better for getting into approach range however.

-Zelda has the advantage on the ground v Olimar(a while ago, but still)

Lol

-that zelda has a good approach game

I don't think he said that, his words were more like "Zelda can be played aggressively and a few players are successful as such".

-that ness or lucas are in fact not considered counters to zelda by the zelda boards and that they regard them as nuetral

Well, they aren't. I frequent over there and there's a varying opinion. Most say that it's a slight advantage (moreso with ness), but Counter is a bit overboard.

-that zelda's upsmash and fsmash outrange and outprioritze every one of Pikachu's and squirtle's approaches, totally disregarding pikachu's projectile and squirtle's size advantage

Well, they do... but priority isn't what allows both of them to approach.

-if STH had his way with the matchup chart, Zelda would have only 2 disadvantages.(marth and GaW)

Well, how well can he defend these opinions?

-etc., the list goes on and on and on and on.

As for the DDD main, I think he's right. Might I add that every other person talking about the matchup is a zelda main.

I'm not, just a secondary, but I do freely admit that Ganondorf's (another of my secondaries) match-ups suck, and defended his disadvantage against Captain Falcon (who I don't play at all...). That should tell you something about my objectivity on this issue.

Granted, it's entirely possible that I just haven't met a DDD that's good enough.

It totally is. It's his best move by far, and besides GaW broken bair, it's very arguably the best bair in the game.

And I'm not arguing that (though, I know some pretty awesome bairs, topic for another day I suppose). But is it good enough?

DDD outranges Zelda with ftilt and in close combat I think he wins there also. Here is why:
-DDD's grab range is very good-good enough to get zelda out of his face.
-ftilt, uptilt, and dtilt are fast and space extremely well.

Zelda however has an awesome neutral b with star-up invincability. At range for grabs and the other tilts, she just moves him back, or grabs, she's got a good grab range too. That said, she also has good punishment options in the form of her own tilts.

As for f-tilt, in that range, she just retreats or advances, both are not major switches and FW offers an easy way to exactly space for the retreat. The advance, not so much, she has to force a whiff or something, but still.

One good move isn't enough, but it can help a lot. I don't have any videos of the matchup I can show you, and I couldn't find any anywhere, but feel free to show me some.

True.

Here's some of my arguements:
-bair outprioritizes and outranges all of zelda's aerials except upair.

Problem is, it doesn't have a disjointed hitbox, most of Zelda's aerials do.

-bair makes for an almost perfect approach. A tactic that DDD can use is to float above Zelda, baiting an upsmash. He then ffbair onto her in her afterlag. It's very reliable.

Are you sure? It worked on me once... but never again. It's really a prediction game, and a good Zelda will be able to tell when she's in up-smash space so DDD is at a disadvantage convincing her to go for it.

-bair edgeguarding: DDD can edgeguard her without trouble, bairing and gimping her with his WoP.

Again, are you sure? She can teleport after all, and it's incredibly precise. She can absolutely sweet-spot the ledge when in teleport range due to the 16 directional teleport. Hitting her again before she can teleport after you just hit her... let's just say in my expirience, brawl hitlag just doesn't cut it.

-bair outprioritizes din's, thus the long lasting hitbox on that move helps his approaching.

True, but a good zelda is going to wait for the hitbox to disapear before actually detonating Din, and because the massive hitbox and stuff like Zigzagging it's very possible for Zelda to pull it off.

-grab, ftilt, uptilt, and dtilt space DDD from Zelda VERY well.

And Neutral B beats them all and resets the spacing.

-ftilt and bair make for very reliable approaches.

Bair we covered, f-tilt, it's pretty good pressure and difficult to punish at max range, but if you're too far then you're asking for Din's fire, and if you're too close, shield and counter.

Especially because bair is easily caught by up-smash.

Both are a bit too predictable.


Then there's simply the fact that Zelda's projectile spamming game is better. At almost any range, the exchange guarantees a hit for Zelda, and Din's fire is strong. All Zelda needs to do to guarantee this is box DDD at one end of the stage and she can force him to stay in this range. The only option DDD has is to retreat and spam, or go for an approach, if he opts for the former then Zelda keeps pushing him back until he's in optimal range just by moving forward.

-Zelda's fsmash and upsmash walls DO NOT have invincibility from everyone.(that's for you STH)

lol

 

[Fear The Force]

R.O.B. should only had a slight disadvantage vs. zelda, falco and game and watch. saying he has a disadvantage over kirby and metaknight is somewhat ridiculous.

How exactly does kirby have an advantage over R.O.B.? I don't see it...same goes for metaknight.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

R.O.B. should only had a slight disadvantage vs. zelda, falco and game and watch. saying he has a disadvantage over kirby and metaknight is somewhat ridiculous.

How exactly does kirby have an advantage over R.O.B.? I don't see it...same goes for metaknight.

ROB has a dissadvantage Vs Zelda? that's news to me... Zelda > ROB ONLY IF the player is compitent with both Zelda AND shiek and can use shiek to build up damage... otherwise, Zelda's moves will be too far decayed to kill ROB very easily by the time he has high damage.

 

[Kasai]

How exactly does kirby have an advantage over R.O.B.? I don't see it...same goes for metaknight.

About Kirby I would assume that it has smoething to do with the speed. Rob, for the most part, out ranges kirby but at the same time is slower. I don't have very extensive experience vs rob with kirby but I can say that because he's a heavyish character, he's easy to combo by Kirby.

In the air, Kirby's multiple jumps allow him to punish Rob's aerials more and he also can gimp rob much better. Again, I don't have much experience vs rob so I'm not very knowledgeable about Rob's kill moves but they might be a factor. Throw up some arguments and I'll take a look at them.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

might also have to do with the fact that, kirby can steal a dang good move from ROB and is better at using it than him due to his height.... but, once again... that's just speculation, I don't know much about this matchup.

 

[Kasai]

might also have to do with the fact that, kirby can steal a dang good move from ROB and is better at using it than him due to his height.... but, once again... that's just speculation, I don't know much about this matchup.

Yeah I completely forgot that. Kirby can basically out spam rob when he steals the ability due to his size (I'm pretty sure that if they both fire at the same time, Kirby dodges rob's due to the slight amount he moves downward while firing). It also helps with gimping and combined with dair, Kirby can gimp rob fairly easily (multiple dairs as rob tries to recover back up).

 

[DanGR]

I know I said that, I wanted to address the fact that you dismissed his opinions out of hand.

Most of his opinons are dismissable, thus I'm completely disregarding everything he says from now on. Are we clear?

I'd like to note that I said "He had the audacity to say...". I'm discrediting all of his opinions on what I listed. I'm not justifying them.(just to clear this up a bit)

It's[FW] usable on occassion, it's precision makes it much better for getting into approach range however.

It is NEVER usable to attack in ANY situation. Name ONE DECENT example how it can be used to attack. There is none. It's like charging in with a SHfalcon punch. In fact, it's WORSE.

Well, how well can he defend these opinions?

No, go check for yourself.

I'm not, just a secondary, but I do freely admit that Ganondorf's (another of my secondaries) match-ups suck, and defended his disadvantage against Captain Falcon (who I don't play at all...). That should tell you something about my objectivity on this issue.

I understand, but the fact that it's 5 zelda users, whether main or not, v 1 DDD former main is a big issue.

Granted, it's entirely possible that I just haven't met a DDD that's good enough.

maybe

And I'm not arguing that (though, I know some pretty awesome bairs, topic for another day I suppose). But is it good enough?

It's that good, watch any good DDD video.

Zelda however has an awesome neutral b with star-up invincability. At range for grabs and the other tilts, she just moves him back, or grabs, she's got a good grab range too. That said, she also has good punishment options in the form of her own tilts.

It doesn't work that way. NL is used to punish mishaps, not to charge in and use it. You use it to punish your opponent when they're behind you, they miss a grab or a tilt or something. It's merely another attack. It won't be used in place of an attack most of the time if you're smart, b/c it can be punished easily by shielding. Punishment options for DDD include ftilt and dtilt. She has good grab range, but so does DDD. In fact, he might have the best grab range of any character without a tether grab or like. It's hard to explain NL, DDD's tilts and it's significance when all people can think about is that DDD is slow and NL has invincibility frames.

As for f-tilt, in that range, she just retreats or advances, both are not major switches and FW offers an easy way to exactly space for the retreat. The advance, not so much, she has to force a whiff or something, but still.

how does she advance easily? If she runs away, it'll start all over again, but closer to the edge. She'll most likely get grabbed if she rolls foward and if she runs into him...ugghh. This is all hypothetical situations now. We're making no progress. :/

Problem is, it doesn't have a disjointed hitbox, most of Zelda's aerials do.

Are you sure about that? DDD's bair has the range and priority to "gimp" any aerial Zelda has. I know this for a fact. Test it out.

Are you sure? It worked on me once... but never again. It's really a prediction game, and a good Zelda will be able to tell when she's in up-smash space so DDD is at a disadvantage convincing her to go for it.

It is a prediction game, and DDD has the fastest ff on any character(maybe besides fox) I'm pretty sure that if your opponent couldn't pull it off more than once, he isn't very good. sorry. It's fast enough so that if you don't upsmash the split second he begins to ffbair, you'll eat a foot. DDD has multiple jumps which help him stay afloat, and his ff ability allows for easy "baiting" If you predict it right you get the attack to hit. If you predict wrong, which is most usually the case, you'll get hit away, and he can follow up with more bairs, which are VERY hard to avoid if the DDD knows how to control himself.

Again, are you sure? She can teleport after all, and it's incredibly precise. She can absolutely sweet-spot the ledge when in teleport range due to the 16 directional teleport. Hitting her again before she can teleport after you just hit her... let's just say in my expirience, brawl hitlag just doesn't cut it.

I don't guess, ever. I know everything I say is true, for a fact.

True, but a good zelda is going to wait for the hitbox to disapear before actually detonating Din, and because the massive hitbox and stuff like Zigzagging it's very possible for Zelda to pull it off.

that's it. I'm gonna make a video on how to avoid that stupid flame. It's ridiculous how overrated that piece of crap is. It's annoying. "Good zeldas" can't do any little trick to make it work. It's garbage and EASILY AVOIDABLE IN EVERY SITUATION.

And Neutral B beats them all and resets the spacing.

And DDD is a penguin, so help me.

Bair we covered, f-tilt, it's pretty good pressure and difficult to punish at max range, but if you're too far then you're asking for Din's fire, and if you're too close, shield and counter.

If you're too far? Huh? I addressed Din's earlier, so please, just imagine that Zelda doesn't have that crap move.

Especially because bair is easily caught by up-smash.

Both are a bit too predictable.

And Wario is short.

R.O.B. should only had a slight disadvantage vs. zelda, falco and game and watch. saying he has a disadvantage over kirby and metaknight is somewhat ridiculous.

How exactly does kirby have an advantage over R.O.B.? I don't see it...same goes for metaknight.

News to me. I think Rob>Zelda, but you know where that'd go...

 

[Fear The Force]

...R.O.B. does have a slight disadvantage vs. zelda. Her din's fire can **** R.O.B. easily, cuz he's floaty. Not to mention, she has naryu's love to reflect his laser and gyros. Plus, strong smash atks, and insane priority. She's one of R.O.B.'s worst matchups.

I find metaknight really easy to beat with R.O.B.; in fact, I think metaknight has a slight DISADVANTAGE vs. R.O.B.

R.O.B. can easily camp all day on him and keep him at bay with long priority atks, projectiles, etc. Itz common sense that a kirby player is going to jump all day on R.O.B. On which opponent does kirby not jump on? His dair isn't really a problem for me. I beat kirbies all day; his up+b projectile is kinda sad (just jump over it, or reflect it). Kirby is KOed way too easily to even be considered a threat vs. R.O.B.

Kirby has the ability to gimp R.O.B., but a good R.O.B. player will just hit that kirby away with his fair, or nair.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

But, playing as a Zelda, I an say... she just an't kill ROB easily... at all.

Sheik < ROB
Zelda = ROB
Shiek+Zelda > ROB

That's how that matchup should go

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

On a totally unrelated topic, After some extensive Marth playing I find that his attacks are even laggier and more punishable on block/dodge than I originally thought.

His ftilt, Utilt and all his smashes are unsafe on block. Dtilt is great though, but I was still surprised at how many things can make it through his tilts/dancing blade/fair after a block...

Can anyone give me some good frame data for all Marth's moves? I could swear I don't remember it being like this when I used to use him more frequently.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Most of his opinons are dismissable, thus I'm completely disregarding everything he says from now on. Are we clear?

Ad Hominem logical fallacy, even a perfect idiot can be right on occasion.

(Not suggesting he's a perfect idiot, just an example).

It is NEVER usable to attack in ANY situation. Name ONE DECENT example how it can be used to attack. There is none. It's like charging in with a SHfalcon punch. In fact, it's WORSE.

If your opponent makes a mistake while you're beginning ^B. Keep in mind that it's also FAR less predictable then falcon punch because you don't have to use it to attack. It's actually pretty easy to catch an opponent off guard with it if you mostly use it for spacing. It's mindgames really.

I understand, but the fact that it's 5 zelda users, whether main or not, v 1 DDD former main is a big issue.

True, but this is something that tends to be accepted by the community in general.

It's that good, watch any good DDD video.

I have, that was a rhetorical question. In other words, I'm suggesting very strongly, while it's good, it's not quite that good.

It doesn't work that way. NL is used to punish mishaps, not to charge in and use it. You use it to punish your opponent when they're behind you, they miss a grab or a tilt or something. It's merely another attack. It won't be used in place of an attack most of the time if you're smart, b/c it can be punished easily by shielding. Punishment options for DDD include ftilt and dtilt. She has good grab range, but so does DDD. In fact, he might have the best grab range of any character without a tether grab or like. It's hard to explain NL, DDD's tilts and it's significance when all people can think about is that DDD is slow and NL has invincibility frames.

Obviously I'm suggesting it as a punishment option, even in really close range it's viable. As an attack in that range, jab is probably best (and it's got a disjointed hitbox). To say nothing of her tilts (which are a bit slower, but useful still).

how does she advance easily? If she runs away, it'll start all over again, but closer to the edge. She'll most likely get grabbed if she rolls foward and if she runs into him...ugghh. This is all hypothetical situations now. We're making no progress. :/

At that range it's easy to advance the tiny amount needed to get Zelda into optimal range if you predict the f-tilt, essentially, getting that range is the punishment for the f-tilt not hitting.

Are you sure about that? DDD's bair has the range and priority to "gimp" any aerial Zelda has. I know this for a fact. Test it out.

I have. It's difficult, but you can sweetspot zelda's lightning kick ON DDD's FOOT! Granted they both get hit in this case, but it's pretty to make sure that both attacks hit. Again, sweetspoting is quite a bit more difficult, I can only do it on occasion, but getting some hitstun in isn't too hard.

It is a prediction game, and DDD has the fastest ff on any character(maybe besides fox) I'm pretty sure that if your opponent couldn't pull it off more than once, he isn't very good. sorry. It's fast enough so that if you don't upsmash the split second he begins to ffbair, you'll eat a foot. DDD has multiple jumps which help him stay afloat, and his ff ability allows for easy "baiting" If you predict it right you get the attack to hit. If you predict wrong, which is most usually the case, you'll get hit away, and he can follow up with more bairs, which are VERY hard to avoid if the DDD knows how to control himself.

No, my opponent did the tech perfectly, I just caught him every single time after I saw the move. If you know what to expect and how much time you have to react, a split second really isn't bad.

I don't guess, ever. I know everything I say is true, for a fact.

Rhetorical question again, sweet-spotting the ledge is a piece of cake, it's nigh impossible to gimp Zelda horizontally. Once the hitstun is gone you simply don't have enough time to go fo another bair before she's got the ledge.

that's it. I'm gonna make a video on how to avoid that stupid flame. It's ridiculous how overrated that piece of crap is. It's annoying. "Good zeldas" can't do any little trick to make it work. It's garbage and EASILY AVOIDABLE IN EVERY SITUATION.

That's what everyone says prior to the match...

If you're too far? Huh? I addressed Din's earlier, so please, just imagine that Zelda doesn't have that crap move.

Sorry, no, when you're in ftilt she has more then enough time to throw a Din's fire in before you can possibly shield. No matter what your opinions on the move, you can't avoid it with in attack or during post-lag, so it's ideal for punishing in this circumstance.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ Kirby/ROB matchup: That's absolutely outdated. Kirby can get some grab combos at the beginning but will have a hard time getting any other damage unless he spams a stolen laser. ROB outranges and outprioritizes him in most cases. Kirby is great at gimping but he just can't gimp ROB. This should be changed.

 

[Kasai]

@ Kirby/ROB matchup: That's absolutely outdated. Kirby can get some grab combos at the beginning but will have a hard time getting any other damage unless he spams a stolen laser. ROB outranges and outprioritizes him in most cases. Kirby is great at gimping but he just can't gimp ROB. This should be changed.

What do you think? even? It seems that the matchup can go either way.

 

[DarkStraw]

As olimar ive played good zelda's, and not long after the spam battle starts the dins fire dries up. They might use it once or twice if they can get me off the edge but thats it (and then you can air doge it most of the time) they usually switch to shiek. Olimars grabs and smashes completely out range her.

 

[Grunt]

@ Kirby/ROB matchup: That's absolutely outdated. Kirby can get some grab combos at the beginning but will have a hard time getting any other damage unless he spams a stolen laser. ROB outranges and outprioritizes him in most cases. Kirby is great at gimping but he just can't gimp ROB. This should be changed.

...i dont think i've ever seen ROB's kirby hat....i'm going to go look right now....

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Falco is an even match-up with Meta Knight. His Shine and Laser neutralize Meta's B moves and his Phantasm limits Meta's Gimp ability.

 

[Dpete]

Kirby's matchups are really outdated on the chart, we are currently working out the new matchups here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176103

(Note: This is the new official match-up thread listed on the first page)

 

[adumbrodeus]

As olimar ive played good zelda's, and not long after the spam battle starts the dins fire dries up. They might use it once or twice if they can get me off the edge but thats it (and then you can air doge it most of the time) they usually switch to shiek. Olimars grabs and smashes completely out range her.

Welll, Olimar's over-b is the victor in the spam battle. Really, I don't think you'll get many objections to Zelda v. Olimar being in Olimar's favor.

 

[SaxDude93]

New Topic

Mario v Ike. Who has the better match-up 1 on 1 and overall?

 

[Brinzy]

(in regards to Earthbounders vs. Zelda)

I said we should reveiw them again and that a lot of zelda mains don;t ind them counters... that's true. And I stand by it.. it's not a terribel matchup.

Honestly... you're hellbent on getting this to go even when it won't be for a long time, if at all. They're not counters and it's not a terrible match-up, but Zelda is at a disadvantage, as you should expect to hear from me by now on this topic. I'm not gonna repeat my entire argument for both characters, but I must ask you...

If you agreed before that, at worst, it's 6:4 Earthbounder, why are you still trying to make it even? If Marth's 6:4 on Zelda earns a disadvantage against her, why not the Earthbounders?

ROB has a dissadvantage Vs Zelda? that's news to me... Zelda > ROB ONLY IF the player is compitent with both Zelda AND shiek and can use shiek to build up damage... otherwise, Zelda's moves will be too far decayed to kill ROB very easily by the time he has high damage.

But, playing as a Zelda, I an say... she just an't kill ROB easily... at all.

Sheik < ROB
Zelda = ROB
Shiek+Zelda > ROB

That's how that matchup should go

How do you get Sheik + Zelda > R.O.B? How do you safely make that transition? R.O.B has very nice launching power and some quick attacks. I'm just asking, not debating.