Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Kirby Gotenks absorbed]

What would anyone say about:

Ness vs. Fox
Ness vs. Wolf
Ness. vs. Diddy

 

[IvanEva]

wow i came here to post EXACTLY this, though I think ike vs g&w is an even match too

Ike has a large reach advantage over Game & Watch as well having such strong attacks that G&W goes flying rather easily. I haven't gotten the chance to check to see if Ike's down air spike is strong enough to beat G&W's up-B (which seems to plow through absolutely everything) though. While G&W's aerials come out very quickly and can stuff Ike's before his come out, a good Ike won't let G&W get close enough very often.

And hey, Ike fights for his friends. Who does G&W fight for? Those losers inhabiting his level?

 

[ICEDTEA1325]

how does dk have an advantage over toon link??? mass projectiles and speed >dk

 

[VEC]

This chart sucks

 

[poorboy93]

Mr. G&W has a huge advantage over Pikachu. Bucket his thundershocks and even his thunderbolts. I've beaten good players just by doing that.

lol Just because GW can bucket crap doesnt mean hes better than Pikachu...
and I heard Pika got a chaingrap =O

 

[Earthbound360]

What would anyone say about:

Ness vs. Fox
Ness vs. Wolf
Ness. vs. Diddy

Fox = Good
Wolf = HORRIBLE
Diddy = Good

 

[Ripple]

how does dk have an advantage over toon link??? mass projectiles and speed >dk

QFT and same with lucario except its pretty even.
Your DK has quite few flaws in it there is like 5 things wrong

DK=bowser to start off with

 

[Nobie]

In the case of any light character (or in the case of Lucario, one who needs to be damaged to really KO opponents), DK's fully charged giant punch is a dangerous move which DK will almost always have at his disposal. Him having a punch wound up basically changes the landscape of the fight every time.

Because of the armor frames on the Giant Punch, it doesn't matter how fast your attack comes out, how large or disjointed your hitboxes are, how much priority your attack has, or how big a target DK is. If you attack at the wrong time at the wrong damage percentage you're basically getting KO'd by a fist to the face flying straight through your attack.

I'm not saying that this gives him the absolute advantage over lighter characters, but in the case of Toon Link I think it's very possible that all those quick maneuvers run the risk of simply being met by a giant punch which can turn the tables.

 

[Wolfang]

Whew, almost got really excited. It would be so much more controlled if it was CPU vs CPU, Final Destination, no items, lvl 9...cept with technically 39 characters, that would take......

*uses calcualtor*

1521 matches, maybe a few hundred less because of special move luck factor, characters like Zelda/Shiek and Pokemon Trainer, etc......

And if u set them at like 2 stock each...thats still alot of hours watching a screen instead of fighting on it, but it would be solid data and kill all disputes forever. Then it would just be up to the players' skill....

*puts away calculator*

*Sigh* too bad nobody's that devoted to the game.

 

[WhiteWingDemon]

Well you would have to figure you need a good sample size for those matches.

*Takes out Brain*

39 characters * 38 Opponents = 1482 match ups
1482 * (Best of 7)
Lower Boundary: 1482*4 = 5928 matches
Upper Boundary: 1482*7 = 10,374 matches

1482 * (Time: min: 2 max: 4)
Lower Boundary: 5928*2 = 11,856 minutes
Lower Quartile Range: 10,374*2 = 20,748 minutes
Upper Quartile Range: 5928*4 = 23,752 minutes
Upper Boundary: 10,374*4 = 41,496 minutes

(Converted to hours and rounded up for time in between matches)
Lower Boundary: 11,856 / 60 = 198 hours
Lower Quartile Range: 20,748 / 60 = 346 hours
Upper Quartile Range: 23,752 / 60 = 395 hours
Upper Boundary: 41,496 / 60 = 692 hours

This is an extreme amount of time for anyone.
However if we each took upon one character the time is reduced too between 5 and 19 hours.

I'm working on ZSS as we speak.

 

[Illussionary]

This match-up chart is flawed, like when you put a Check Mark or a Red X your saying that both characters have the advantage when really only one character can have the advantage, it just doesn't make sense...

 

[RupeeClock]

Just a suggestion, I'd use the character icons to label each row and column.

It would the chart a lot easier to read as you see who to compare against who...

And frankly, I just find it silly that Bowser has so many disadvantages, haha.

Also, tint every second row, like so.

 

[hario.hige]

This match-up chart is flawed, like when you put a Check Mark or a Red X your saying that both characters have the advantage when really only one character can have the advantage, it just doesn't make sense...

You... haven't seen many charts of this type in your limited life-experience, have you?

 

[0wnd1zzl3d]

Great job, this is a huge help.

 

[IvanEva]

This chart sucks

If you feel that it does than by all means suggest ways to improve it. As far as its accuracy goes, the match-ups are taken from all over and from many different posters. Many disputes and contradictions have come up (and I'll do my best to catch them and mark them as such) but at the same time so have total agreements on certain match-ups. When I get the same information from different sources that's consistent, I can probably feel safe believing it. If your problem is readability, that can be fixed. If you don't like all the gaps go out and play the game to help me fill them.

lol Just because GW can bucket crap doesnt mean hes better than Pikachu...
and I heard Pika got a chaingrap =O

If you're a good G&W/Pikachu player and you have solid experience fighting a good Pikachu/G&W player than please elaborate on why G&W isn't at an advantage. If you've "heard" that Pikachu has a chaingrab, but have yet to use it yourself, you can't really comment on it and its usefulness. Only post match-up observations if you've actually experienced that match-up.

Whew, almost got really excited. It would be so much more controlled if it was CPU vs CPU...
[edited]
And if u set them at like 2 stock each...thats still alot of hours watching a screen instead of fighting on it, but it would be solid data and kill all disputes forever. Then it would just be up to the players' skill....
[edited]
*Sigh* too bad nobody's that devoted to the game.

No.

This match-up chart is flawed, like when you put a Check Mark or a Red X your saying that both characters have the advantage when really only one character can have the advantage, it just doesn't make sense...

You're misreading this chart. Read it like this: pick a character on the left side and ask "How does this character fare against..." then pick a character on the top side and follow both lines down until they cross. The result is how character 1 fares against character 2. If you take a look at the line running along the center of the chart and notice what's on either side of it (diagonally) you'll notice that one side of the chart is a negative (Xs become checks and vice cersa) mirror of the other. If character 1 is at a disadvantage to character 2 then character 2 will be at an advantage to character 1 (if you looked them up in a reversed order).

Just a suggestion, I'd use the character icons to label each row and column.

And frankly, I just find it silly that Bowser has so many disadvantages, haha.

Also, tint every second row, like so.

Ah, excellent idea! I'll definitely incorporate that!

I'd love it if Bowser was at an advantage against a lot of characters... but I don't think that that's going to happen. He's no Juggernaut. Not even close...

 

[Ripple]

Hey ivaneva, I'm going to have the entire DK forum help with the match-ups for DK so you can get them out of the way and so you don't here from just me

 

[poorboy93]

\


If you're a good G&W/Pikachu player and you have solid experience fighting a good Pikachu/G&W player than please elaborate on why G&W isn't at an advantage. If you've "heard" that Pikachu has a chaingrab, but have yet to use it yourself, you can't really comment on it and its usefulness. Only post match-up observations if you've actually experienced that match-up.

Yes I understand the point, but the person I personally quoted didnt have a viable input on why Pikachu is bad against G&W. The bucket alone I think is not a viable answer
The following video is pikachu's CG against fox. His CG working against G&W is unknown to me. I have been also imformed that Pika can chain his/her with her Dgrab as well but I am currently searching for this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF196eON3os
Pika is currently my second main. I have some what experince with her against other characters such as a Pika vs Ike, Or Pika vs. Pit, but I havent had valid experince with a experinced G&W

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Whew, almost got really excited. It would be so much more controlled if it was CPU vs CPU, Final Destination, no items, lvl 9...cept with technically 39 characters, that would take......

*uses calcualtor*

1521 matches, maybe a few hundred less because of special move luck factor, characters like Zelda/Shiek and Pokemon Trainer, etc......

And if u set them at like 2 stock each...thats still alot of hours watching a screen instead of fighting on it, but it would be solid data and kill all disputes forever. Then it would just be up to the players' skill....

*puts away calculator*

*Sigh* too bad nobody's that devoted to the game.

Well you would have to figure you need a good sample size for those matches.

*Takes out Brain*

39 characters * 38 Opponents = 1482 match ups
1482 * (Best of 7)
Lower Boundary: 1482*4 = 5928 matches
Upper Boundary: 1482*7 = 10,374 matches

1482 * (Time: min: 2 max: 4)
Lower Boundary: 5928*2 = 11,856 minutes
Lower Quartile Range: 10,374*2 = 20,748 minutes
Upper Quartile Range: 5928*4 = 23,752 minutes
Upper Boundary: 10,374*4 = 41,496 minutes

(Converted to hours and rounded up for time in between matches)
Lower Boundary: 11,856 / 60 = 198 hours
Lower Quartile Range: 20,748 / 60 = 346 hours
Upper Quartile Range: 23,752 / 60 = 395 hours
Upper Boundary: 41,496 / 60 = 692 hours

This is an extreme amount of time for anyone.
However if we each took upon one character the time is reduced too between 5 and 19 hours.

I'm working on ZSS as we speak.

Are you two ****ing idiots about to try and base a character matchup chart off of LEVEL NINE COMPUTERS, OF ALL THINGS? I have heard some pretty ****ing stupid things from Smashboards lately, but this right here takes the cake.

 

[Me14k]

What is the reasoning on DK countering metaknight?

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

They have Meta Knight countered by DONKEY KONG? LMFAO. Someone get a mod to close this thread. Instant fail.

 

[Ilucamy]

In my opinion, it would be better to pit computers against each other in say, 400 matches and see the results...

Things like that don't work. For example, Lv 9 Lucas is probably the worst thing I've ever seen. He got totally owned by my friend who was playing with kirby for the first time.

Also, I say that Lucario has a weakness against Mario, maybe I just suck, but I can never seem to beat Mario.

 

[Nobie]

What is the reasoning on DK countering metaknight?

I posted a possible reason last page, but just for the sake of convenience, I think it has to do with the fact that 1) as good as Metaknight is, DK just needs to get about 6 or 7 hits in to put him into KO range and 2) Giant Punch has armor.

 

[Ripple]

I posted a possible reason last page, but just for the sake of convenience, I think it has to do with the fact that 1) as good as Metaknight is, DK just needs to get about 6 or 7 hits in to put him into KO range and 2) Giant Punch has armor.

those are not good enough reasons to give the advantage to dk, dk is countered BY meta knight for sure. if you want to know why go ask in the DK forums

 

[KeyKid19]

Falcon is countered by Metaknight and partially Zelda, so I'd change those ?s to Xs. However Wario is not a bad matchup for Falcon. In fact most characters without a sword or a decent projectile are good matchups for Falcon.

 

[ph00tbag]

I'd at least put DK even with MK. His tilts far outrange and just cut through most of MK's attacks, and he can knock MK off much sooner than vice versa. I've seen this happen several times. It's actually very surprising and ridiculous.

 

[peruvian_001]

wow sonic has an advantage over someone

 

[Gerbil]

The chart can always be fixed in the future.

So I'm here to help with the Olimar portion.

Olimar is either neutral, or has difficulties with the following in accordance to my experience:

Diddy Kong
Toon Link
Kirby
DeDeDe
Marth
Wolf
Falco
Lucario
Zelda
Metaknight

Olimar seems to have an easier time with the following chars:

Donkey Kong
Ike
Snake
Sonic
Samus


Characters I didn't mention I either forgot how I felt, or I just don't have enough experience against them lol. So yeah, that's my 2 cents.

 

[WhiteWingDemon]

Are you two ****ing idiots about to try and base a character matchup chart off of LEVEL NINE COMPUTERS, OF ALL THINGS? I have heard some pretty ****ing stupid things from Smashboards lately, but this right here takes the cake.

I don't really suggest we do that. I was just providing the math. Anyone who has seen a lvl 9 ZSS should know that the computer can't be trusted to play an actual match.

 

[Trozz]

Level 9 Snakes are hilarious. They keep blowing themselves up.

According to the match-up chart, Bowser is useless.
-.-

 

[Wolfang]

Are you two ****ing idiots about to try and base a character matchup chart off of LEVEL NINE COMPUTERS, OF ALL THINGS? I have heard some pretty ****ing stupid things from Smashboards lately, but this right here takes the cake.

Lol obviously not since I said nobody's that devoted and that the rest is up to skill, so you can add yourself to the list of what takes the cake or not.

 

[Athos]

I don't want to make individual matchup complaints, because it's too early to know for sure who has an advantage in what matchup. But still I commend your effort, despite the fact that it might be impossible.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Just to add to the list
IMO Ike has advantages against Fox and Game and Watch.
Fox's projectile doesn't stop Ike, so Ike can just take the hits and continue his approach. Fox's shine also has much less range than Falco's and does not hinder Ike's approach. Ike's range is a great advantage in this matchup, and approaching Fox while staying at a safe distance is really easy.

Likewise, Game and Watch's projectile isn't that great for camping, and Ike's range once again overwhelms his opponent. It may just be the Game and Watches I fight or something, but the really have a hard time getting inside my range. Game and Watch's recovery also puts him in a lovely position for Ike's vertical attacks, all of which cover a very large area and are all efficient kill moves. Ike gets in a little trouble once he gets above Game and Watch, but just about every other position gives Ike the advantage.

 

[Zankoku]

Peach > Lucas
Lucas can't effectively projectile camp Peach, and her auto-canceled aerials will give any defensive game hell. Her spacing game rivals Lucas', except that Peach hits a little faster on the ground.

Peach > Ice Climbers
Peach can still out-aerial game ICs. Her dsmash, weak as it is, can still separate them. So, she's pretty much one of the better ones at not only taking advantage of the IC's weak point, but also keeping them away from each other.

Sheik < ROB
Between the fast projectiles, high range, and lasting hitboxes, Sheik is really hard pressed to get any openings in against ROB. She can't even take advantage of her aerial game, because ROB has more aerial mobility and higher priority attacks.

Sheik < Snake
Snake refuses to die, and Sheik's attacks aren't particularly strong. This becomes problematic when Snake can KO Sheik with several different attacks at around 100%, while Sheik has to continue pummeling Snake up to 190%, and there's no easy opening like there is on Dedede, either.

Sheik > Diddy
Sheik can take better advantage of Diddy's bananas than Diddy can. Plus, a whole lot of Diddy's attacks have a vital delay to them that Sheik can capitalize on. On top of that, Diddy's got one of the easier recoveries to edgeguard.

Pikachu < ROB
I dunno, Anther wanted me to give this matchup or something...

 

[DarkStraw]

Olimar completly and utterly domminate pikachu. I main olimar and even when people who are much better than me play pikachu i always dominate him. Olimar can easily outspam his ground hopping thunder (or whatever you call it). pikmin pwn his headbutt move. if theres a pikmin in the way or on pikachu he just headbuts the pikmin. All you really have to watch out for is his thunder attack, which can be airdoged pretty easy. His downsmash is a pain but its not like it sends you straight up or anything, it sends you to the side and can be avoided pretty easy so long as your always on the alert for it (since its the only good move he has left lol) pikachu's sidesmash is pretty slow so if he decides to use smash wait for it and grab :0

Also i think olimar has a an advantage against lucario... he can outspam his energy attack pretty easy, and lucario is easy to gimp (not as easy as olimar but still easyer than most) since his recovery dosnet attack.

Olimar also seems strong against pit, he can grab through pits angel ring, and his pikmin go right through his arrows. IM not sure if you can gimp pits recovery with pikmin (maby a purple one) i havent played many pits though so take this as a grain of salt.

certinally dosent seem weak against toon link (or link) from my experience olimars pikmin can block boomarangs/arrows and if TL has a pikmin on him when he throws his bomb it blows up on him. Not to mention olimars upsmash can cancel out TL's down air (the one all the toon link players love so much)
you can upsmash+uptilt his downsmash. I havent had trouble with TL much.

obviously olimar can gimp ness's recovery pretty easy
as well as ike's side recovery (on or off the stage for those ikes that love using it on the stage, its nearly impossible when playing olimar because theres pikmin littering the ground anytime theres any distance.


As olimar i have trouble fighting lucas...and metaknight and wolf and for some reason ivysaur.

 

[IDK]

On the Samus thing: I like to consider her suit/suitless as one character since you can switch when you pick her and she only takes one character slot on the selection screen. Samus' match-ups would be based on a 'mix' of the two. However, since everybody dislikes that (including people I play with) I'll add Zero Suit Samus as a separate character. That was poor insight on my part.

On the unfinished thing: That's the point of posting it in the first place! I doubt even the best Brawl player right now could make a completely accurate match-up chart. There's just too many spots to be absolutely sure about. I know most Lucas match-ups pretty well but not too much else. The point of it is that you contribute the match ups that YOU do know. This is a Smash Bros. community. Everybody pitches in, everybody benefits. I know a few match-ups pretty well but certainly not all. I'm sure the same can be said for everyone here, no? But by sharing our match-up experiences we can fill up the chart pretty quickly, I should think. Filling it up with unproven data may actually just be harmful (which would be about half of what I filled out) and misleading. Ideally, I should have just filled in the match-ups that I was sure of from experience.

Do you play as Donkey Kong? Do you notice that you're consistantly knocking Captain Falcons around with ease due to your range and down-tilt speed (just an example - may not be true - I don't use DK) but always losing horribly to Pikachu due to an inability to get past the jolt spam? Post that and I'll change the chart to show that DK has an advantage over Falcon but is at a disadvantage against Pikachus.

However, I do agree that it looks rather unprofessional for the moment. I'll do more digging around and fill up the empty spots with what information I can find on those match-ups. If anybody disagrees with any match-up, please say so and why. That's the whole point of it; this is the tactical discussion thread afterall.

Lastly, I should state that the computer thing, while certainly the more 'scientific' method (and it sounds pretty cool - when this chart is 'finished' I'll totally have to check out if an AI version matches it), wouldn't be a good idea since how the AI plays can bare little resemblance to how a human plays (although Brawl's AI is certainly more "human" than Melee's... but not by much). This is more of a 'general community consensus' on which characters have an advantage over each other. Like, if Melee's Fox AI kept getting beaten by the Mewtwo AI it would have no bearing on Fox having an official advantage over Mewtwo as shown by humans.

I'll update the chart again tomorrow night.

NO WAY!!!! on the subject that characters under the same selection spot are the same!!! I STRONGLY DISAGREE!!! they have completely different moves, and are way different. For example: Zamus only has one move the same as Samus, which is different anyway. They have completely different jump heights, speed, priority, and EVERYTHING! I need someone to help me out with this guy. Wow.

 

[IDK]

Level 9 Snakes are hilarious. They keep blowing themselves up.

According to the match-up chart, Bowser is useless.
-.-

tell that to gimpyfish. you will get yourself beaten in the face. RAWR.

 

[DethSmasher]

diddy kong beats charizard by a lot. diddy kong destroys any big/slow character becaause of so much bananna control. slow characters cant avoid banannas very easily at all. so that is a good on ganon too. and with toon link, i think diddy is at an advantage or at least a neutral because his banannas can close the gap between them for campers and diddy can keep up with TL's speed and high jumps.

 

[MrSquinshee]

You didn't even finish the chart? What a waste of time. Why post half finished data?

Fun to bash, not fun to create.

I'm a huge fan of this project and I hope it progresses smoothly!

 

[Hunter_R]

Falco appears to have a good advantage over Wolf. He can chainthrow Wolf until about 50%damage. It can also be chained into a down air if near the edge.


It's demonstrated over and over in these videos.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=070nTxJkcmc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQgQyTAUz5w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ04b870chk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a7SiEUzMkU

 

[D_B_S]

Marth is amazing, no doubt about that. However, as I'm sure most Marth players would agree (and many posts in the Marth threads strongly support this) he is at a disadvantage against projectile spammers. Lucas' PK Fire can be a difficult thing for Marth to get past and PK Thunder will always hit a Marth unless blocked. Brawl was made in such a way that camping is very much possible. Marth rocks, yes, but he has to go through hell against a Lucas (well, not hell, but he's still has to work harder than against many others).[/QUOTE]

yet n still an experience marth would win over an experience lucas

if they were equally

and..........im not sayn that cuz he "rocks"