Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's advantage on G&W comes from his amazing defensive game. Not his offense.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

And G&W doesn't have an amazing defensive game? :s
Dolphin Slash out of shield during the turtle is one thing I see, but that can be avoided with tight spacing.
G&W can set up some food as a defensive measure.
And Marth is troubled getting down, where G&W is one of, if not the best, abuser of having the opponent above you. Uair, Fishbowl (which can be spaced to avoid Counter), up B, and just positional advantage.

I can get the spacing thing, but G&W doesn't have a hard time, typically, getting inside defenses.
The difficulty of killing is hard to get around, though, and I've managed to live quite long versus Yagami Light's Marth as long as I avoid putting myself in places to get Usmashed/Fsmashed. He's also commented on how frustrating it is to be killed so early.

Though we've not gone too far into our Marth discussion, we just don't think he beats G&W to the degree that MK does, and that isn't by much.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dude....chillax son.

It's like 6/4 at best for Marth.

Most likely it's only 55/45 though.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

heh, didn't know I came off as harsh/demanding
its just that, many of us really don't think it's that
but I'm going to bed

 

[Emblem Lord]

You weren't coming off as harsh. I just like saying chillax.

I think it's Marth's adv. because, G&W is quite light and yes Marth lacks safe kill moves, but good Marth's won't just spam them.

And G&W's offense takes a bit of a hit in the match-up. He can't be aggressive at all. He has to play a spacing game. But the spacing game is Marth's game.

It's really slight advantage, but it is there.

Pshh..G&W boards. Yall think G&W vs Snake is even. We can't go by you guys.

You are all insane.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Erm?
I don't think Zelda/Ness mains have come to a consensus. You personally changed Nestec's mind, but the overall community thinks it's certainly in his favor. The matchup thread of theirs even has it as a large advantage. It's sort of over the top, but they certainly feel it's in his favor.

I even went to your matchup thread, and you guys hardly agree on anything. Two people think Ness is even with Zelda, apparently; You and slyfer, and slyfer thinks Wolf is her hardest matchup. You guys havent even discussed him really, just that you guys have come to a consensus that Zelda is more than Dins Fire. Hmm, thats nice, but Ness is more than just Psi Magnet. S2 seems to think otherwise, and probably a few others. Overall, it seems to them that G&W, Marth, Lucas, and Ness are the hardest matchups.

sort of on the topic of Zelda, I'm sort of moving towards G&W having a large advantage here.
and Marth/MK should be switched for G&W, as things are looking. MK has a slight advantage, we've determined, yet it's mostly even. Marth is definitely not a harder matchup. So either they're both even, or they switch places. It's our consensus.

Wrong. More of us think that than just the two of us... and, also, some Zeldas think that Zelda > Ness because she's a beter charcter overall

Multiple reasons have been given in this thread why the matchup is not in ness's favour... there's really no goodcounter argument at this time... plus, after playing several Nesses... I'm angry it was ever put as bad in the first place. If you actually PLAY the matchup againt a good zelda, no way would you still believe Ness has the advantage... he simply.... doesn't. I don't know how to say it any better. He simply doesn't have any special advantage on Zelda... at all. You could argue Psy magnet... but, once she drops her use of Din's when there's no opening for it, then he has absolutely nothing that counters her gameplay and she i left with techniques which counter his.

So Zelda boards can't reach a consensus. Big deal. some of us camp, some of us use shiek and Zelda, some of us are defensive, some of us are offensive... at this early stage in the game play style has a lot to do with how a matchup will go... no wonder no one can agree on anything.

 

[Kant]

Thanks very much IvanEva! Great effort, I'm definitely going to be using this. =)

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

im sorry... fail. You HIGHLY under estimate game and watch. HIGHLY.

otherwise it isn't too bad. except snake...

 

[DanGR]

normally, you read charts from left to right. Not up to down...

 

[Kasai]

Double post somehow....

 

[Kasai]

im sorry... fail. You HIGHLY under estimate game and watch. HIGHLY.

otherwise it isn't too bad. except snake...

normally, you read charts from left to right. Not up to down...

I'm gonna assume that DanGR is replying to the first quote...learn 2 read charts. Just for quick reference, those are 2 of the most well represented characters both as far as potential and people arguing for them.

 

[DanGR]

that's what I was getting at^.

 

[gantrain05]

yeah, ness really DOES have the advantage sonic, ness can float in and out of zeldas smashes and poke at her shield so easily its not even funny, and if ness gets caught in an Usmash its easy to DI out of it. im sorry but i fail to see how zelda is the least bit hard to deal with while playing ness.

 

[Kiwikomix]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176831

That's a more updated Yoshi matchup thread, Ivan.

And why isn't Kirby>Ike yet? >_>

 

[ShadowLink84]

yeah, ness really DOES have the advantage sonic

Woah first the first sentence her is something I would debate with and 2, it really does not belong in your argument.


Why does Ness have an advantage over Sonic?I am curious about your thoughts since I've always been more towards the nuetral end of the matchup

 

[Mr. Escalator]

ummm...
are you kidding? I can't tell >___>
If not, he's referring to Sonic The Hedgedawg, and he's arguing the matchup of Ness and Zelda.
Not Sonic and Ness.

(which I do feel is in Ness' court but, ah well, I don't debate much anymore)

 

[ShadowLink84]

Nah I had gotten confused and was too lazy to correct my post.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Its fine, I actually was confused to what he was addressing. I had to read through and go back to realize he was talking to StH

 

[DanGR]

Olimar v Sheik is not advantageous for Olimar. It's more like even, if not advantageous for her. Sheik's tilts have priority over the pikmin attacks. Her aerials have priority over Olimar in general, she's good at gimp killing Olimar with fair. She doesn't have problems racking or killing either. Sheik is very fast and can follow up her attacks to quickly get Olimar off the stage.(better than most characters at least) Sheik can't be juggled by Olimar b/c her very quick nair outprioritizes every pikmin move. SHnair>jab makes a very reliable approach option that never fails too. Everything points towards Sheik in this matchup except that Olimar has his crazy grabs, and has no trouble killing at all.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah, ness really DOES have the advantage sonic, ness can float in and out of zeldas smashes and poke at her shield so easily its not even funny, and if ness gets caught in an Usmash its easy to DI out of it. im sorry but i fail to see how zelda is the least bit hard to deal with while playing ness.

except Zelda still outranges ness and still has an easier time KOing than ness....

I fail to see how having a few perks vs. zelda means we get to ignore all the areas where she is still superior.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Ness has loads of better killing options, though.

I'm suggesting a change:
G&W >> Squirtle. It's generally agreed upon that Squirtle gets wrecked in the air, where he's most potent, and cant handle the ground either. He's light and dies so much earlier when hit with G&W's powerful attacks.

The PT boards started discussing their matchup with G&W, and all seem to be in agreement that Squirtle has an awful time here. Lingering, ranged, aerials hurt this guy a lot.

so yeah, anyone disagree?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ness has loads of better killing options, though.

take your ness against a good zelda and just see how easy it is to try to land those kill options.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Even better, I'll record it when I can ;D
Then again, there is a lack of good zelda's.

 

[SlashTalon]

Recommended Falco Matchups:

Falco >> Bowser
Falco >> DK (? Only because of lasers, speed, and CG. Bowser def gets ***** harder though)
Falco = ROB (An edge camping ROB > a camping Falco)
Falco = Kirby (combos, shortness, gimping)
Falco = Meta (Both quick, lasers shut everything MK does down, CG to spike, IMO falcos only weakness here is upB and gimping)
Falco >> Link (Hes heavy, has reflectable projectiles, and is arguable the easiest char to gimp, oh yeah and CG to spike)

 

[storm92]

Recommended Falco Matchups: Falco = Kirby (combos, shortness, gimping)

Agreed, we've been trying to get that changed to equal for a while.

On the spacies subject, how is Fox=Kirby?
I don't understand that at all. Fox can't do much of anything against Kirby. Laser camping is nullified if Kirby simply crouches, forcing Fox to approach. Fox can be combo'd by all of Kirby's throw combos, whether it be Dthrow-->Utilt x? (up to 37%), Dthrow chain grabs (0-36%), or the Gonzo combo (0-51%). Fox on the other hand can't combo Kirby well due to his light weight and ability to jump multiple times. In the air, Kirby's Bair outranges everything but Fox's own Bair, which is usually reserved for sending opponents off the stage and not an approach move. The advantage is exemplified by how easily Fox can be gimped by Kirby trying to recover. All it takes is a FF'd aerial when he attempts to Firefox to take a stock off, aerial hammers get easy KOs, and even Swallow works here just jumping off the stage and spitting them out a good distance away.

 

[Xebenkeck]

^^^agree with everything you said.

Can someone explain to me why ness is at a disadvantage against sonic?
ness outprioritizes sonic in the air!!!

 

[DanGR]

and so does bowser.

 

[adumbrodeus]

^^^agree with everything you said.

Can someone explain to me why ness is at a disadvantage against sonic?
ness outprioritizes sonic in the air!!!

Everything including your tabletop outprioritizes sonic in the air.

Doesn't really matter if Sonic is just to good at avoiding and punishing you.

 

[cutter]

It is quite a shame how DDD only has a large advantage against DK.
DDD >> Mario
DDD >> Luigi
DDD >> Samus
DDD >> Bowser

DDD has large advantages over these guys because DDD 0-deaths them with his infinite.

Also:

G&W >> Squirtle

G&W vs. Squirtle has been discussed a good deal by both G&W and PT users and the consensus is that G&W completely wrecks Squirtle with his disjointed hitboxes and overpowered kill moves that send Squirtle packing as early as 70%.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

The thing is, the infinite isn't as game changing as the one he has versus DK. They all have ways to space to follow the advice "Don't Get Grabbed"....

Mario: Fireballs
Luigi: Fireballs
Samus: Missiles, Shots, Zair
Bowser: Firebreath

You have to think in terms of how they match up without the infinite included. These guys would all have favorable matchups if it werent for this, and even then, the match is certainly playable as long as you can space and avoid positioning yourself to be punishable (i.e. avoid situations of shield grabs).

I play Mario as an up-and-coming secondary to my G&W, and this matchup, while being in his court, it's playable and winnable. Hard, yeah, but not hard enough to be a large X.

Maybe some of you will disagree, but I don't think it's a large disadvantage.
I'm unsure about Bowser, though. Maybe he deserves a one.

Also, on the topic of infinites, I feel Charizard v Ness is NOT a large disadvantage. Without the infinite, Charizard got *****, Ness typically does this to large foes, and even with it it's not even close to the difficulty of the Marth matchup, who was bad to begin with. The infinite isn't too devastating at lower percents; with proper DI and getting out as fast as possible, you should be able to make it across the stage with out much percent, and you have to factor in where you were grabbed in the first place. Just like the other characters who get infinited and dont have large disadvantages, Ness can space himself to avoid the grab.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

I think that Yoshi>Wario, maybe even >>. If DDD gets a big advantage because of chaingrab, Yoshi's CG should be big here too. And Wario and Yoshi's air games are close, with Yoshi's bair>his bair, and Yoshi's uair >his uair. Also invincibility frames during double jump can nullify alot of Wario's KO opportunities. And egg toss, grab, egg lay and egg roll all go through his bike, hurting his approach

 

[Mr. Escalator]

With the infinite, I definitely think Yoshi > Wario, but not >>. While the infinite makes a big difference, Yoshi's grab isn't spectacular. He can still get the grab, it's just not too easy. Not a large advantage, in my eyes, but it isn't neutral.

 

[Smashbros_7]

While I do feel that Ness has an advantage over Zelda, it's slight. Playing multiple Zelda mains against Ness shuts down her Forward B appraoch (psi magnet) Ness, semi walls Zelda when she tries to recovery, and her being extremely light (lighter than Ness eww) makes her sucseptable to Ness' nasty back throw (power is determined on your weight. Light characters, die easier, while fa- I mean heavy will never die. This makes facing Snake a drag) Anyway, my 2 cents.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Wario needs to be edited. He has a disadvantage on some extent to the taller characters in Brawl, and a severe disadvantage against a few of them. I'm too lazy to elaborate again, so please refer to this thread here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=177538

Because of this, Wario should have MUCH more disadvantages. Ivana, you've got some changing to do!

 

[Smashbros_7]

Look Sonic, you clearly against Ness.

Not ONE mention of Lucas (he has an advantage over her)

Look, I've played as Zelda for a quite a bit, and unless Zelda gets a broken tech on Ness/Lucas, she won't beat them!

 

[Kiwikomix]

^^ The legendary triple post. A better idea is to edit your previous posts or just multiquote.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

as a zelda player who has played a bunch of diffrent lucas users and beat them all i would say that i agree that lucas and ness have an advantage on zelda b/c of what there moves sets are but that the advantage is not a very big one. i found with smart shielding i could punish the lucas after many of his smashes. i have not played any nesses but i figure a similar play style would work against him.

to restate this i feel that lucas and ness most likely have the advantage on zelda but it is not a big one and any good zelda should be able to get around them and have a pretty even fight so to smashbros 7 i don't think zelda needs some kind of broken tech just a smart player behind her (not saying the people you beat were bad but they might just have to change there startegies, i had some trouble with them at first but i just approached the game against them in a diffrent way and now i have not had any problems)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't pretend to be the best... or even close to it... heck, I'm not even Pro.... but I AM a decent zelda. better than the scruff who will din's fire spam. And I've played against good ness and lucas... there's quite a gap there... lucas has a VERY slight advantage on Zelda.... ness has absolutely ZERO advantage. if you haven't played a good Zelda... what basis do you even have?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Okay, wait, what? ZERO ADVANTAGE?
Wow.

I could say the same. You havent played good Ness' then. That is, if you've played many at all. I keep hearing people mention playing many Lucas' , but few Ness players. You could of mistook the character advantage as a sign of equal skill, which I've done before.

I feel it's just you arguing over this now.
And maybe they have played good Zelda's.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Okay, wait, what? ZERO ADVANTAGE?
Wow.

I could say the same. You havent played good Ness' then. That is, if you've played many at all. I keep hearing people mention playing many Lucas' , but few Ness players. You could of mistook the character advantage as a sign of equal skill, which I've done before.

I feel it's just you arguing over this now.
And maybe they have played good Zelda's.

I've played more lucases than nesses... but I HAVE played ness. It's even... get over it. The advatages Ness has over Zelda are cancelled out By Zelda's advatages on him.

I feel this has been adequetly supported and that the counterargument is... lacking to say the least.