Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[PK Hexagon]

Why is Olimar an even matchup for Snake, again? (in the terms that I think it should be in Oli's favor)

 

[ThaRoy]

Marth has a spacial advantage over Falco and Marth's Dolphin Slash has high priority against the chain grab. However, Falco's Dair is a better spike then Marth's, but at the same time Marth's Fair and Nair prevent the Dair from being effective. As such, Marth can keep Falco at bay and reduce him to laser spam. However, Marth;s horizontal aerial distance is superb allowing for SH evasion and approaching at a fast rate. Falco's reflector can keep Marth at distance grounded, but when it comes to aerial Marth has a stall (Dancing Blade) and disjointed hitboxes. Also, Marth's retreating SH outranges Falco's approach. In the end, what true advantages does Falco have over Marth?

Falco's Dair is better then Marth's
Marth's Fair > Falco's Dair
Marth's Up B > Falco's chaingrab
Marth's aerial Dancing Blade stalls him and his Nair and Fair are better then Falco's Bair
Marth's SH evasion > Laser
Falco's chain grab game relies heavily on shielding at close quarters and grabbing. Marth excels at shield pressuring.
Marth has great recovery, arguably better then Falco's.
Marth's counter can prevent illusion approach and even retreat.
Marth's tip > Falco's tip

In the end, Marth has an advantage over Falco.

 

[Griffard]

This argument has been run into the ground, but I would just like to add that I main Falco and play Marth for fun, and Marth has a much better time vs. Falco than vice versa. The added priority with his sword stops all sorts of various tricks that Falco has available, and I believe that his recovery is almost strictly better.

 

[DanGR]

Why is Olimar an even matchup for Snake, again? (in the terms that I think it should be in Oli's favor)

I really don't know. I argued for like a week about it just to get a plain "no". Olimar>Snake definitely. there's really no question.

 

[jalued]

i think u should make shiek vs TL a BIG disadvantage. a spamming back air toon link is almost impossible to beat with sheik, back air outprioratises everything that sheik attempts

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Again, why does Shiek have an advantage on Ness? As well as Fox (3rd-4th lightest character in the game
susceptable to Ness back throw) DK (I say 50-50 NEUTRAL, DK has the range and power, but Ness B sticked PKF is great on DK, which leads to a free Fsmash) Falco 50-50 again , Falco doesn't CG Ness well.

I honeslty do better against both earthbounders with Zelda than Shiek

 

[jalued]

oh, and sheik vs luigi is in no way an even game. luigi absolutely ***** sheik with his massive air priority. luigi is like a sheik counter

 

[itsthebigfoot]

DK > Olimar

quote from Mr. X, top olimar in socal

About the Olimar vs DK matchup, I believe it's 60-40 or 70-30 in DK's favor. I've played a few good DK's, and to be honest my heart races more when I see them pick DK than when I see marth or even meta-knight (a common feared matchup for Olimars).

Olimar's biggest advantage against DK is that he can rack up a nice 50-60% from a 0 percent grab combo. Other than that though, DK has him outmatched in a lot of ways.

One of Olimar's biggest strengths is his lengthy smashes and disjointed hitboxes. DK's tilts and smashes, however, compltetly outprioritize them. Also, DK is so strong and fast enough to connect that he can knock Oli off the stage at fairly low percents. His heaviness makes him last much longer than most other characters, making it harder for Oli to finish him off becuase oftentimes he needs to use his finishing moves to get the percent high enough on DK to kill him. Oftentimes I find myself so scared to approach a good DK that I just have to sit back and throw pikmin for a bit to get my bearings becuase DK can be very difficult to approach. His down-B also ***** becuase the range on it is ridiculous in this game, making running grabs and running upsmashes hard to pull off.

Also, I forget what you guys call it but when DK f-throws, runs off the stage, and throws the person into the stage is an instant death for Oli, meaning any grab at a medium to high percent is an easy stock.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I completely disagree with peach having disadvantages against Fox and Falco, they are VERY easily combo'd and just about all of peaches moves outrange and out prioritize both of them.

Fox can be combo'd up to 60 easily and falco up for 50. Reconsider please, I don't think peach only has 4 advantage match ups out of 39..

Well, she definitely beats Olimar, and that hasn't been changed yet.

 

[Dyxnar14]

this may be dumb but how does DK>Snake? i know DK has fast tilts

 

[itsthebigfoot]

dk lives longer than snake (one of 3 characters that does), has faster tilts with the same priority, a good enough approach not to get camped, super armor on 2 attacks (helps a lot vs snake), and 5 different aerials that knock snake out of the cypher. to top it off he can use his cargo throw to force snake to cypher after 40%, which means a very good chance at koing after 40% every time you get a grab.

 

[Greenstreet]

g and w is intense btw.

 

[IDK]

why don't ice climbers have MAJOR ADVANTAGE on... well... everyone? grabbed once and you die.

 

[adumbrodeus]

why don't ice climbers have MAJOR ADVANTAGE on... well... everyone? grabbed once and you die.

Not everyone is auto-combo to death.

Regardless, way too many stocks they won't get a stock in.

 

[Dark Sonic]

why don't ice climbers have MAJOR ADVANTAGE on... well... everyone? grabbed once and you die.

Try grabbing Metaknight with Ice Climbers. Or Marth.

Or pretty much anybody.

They have terrible grab range, terrible movement speed, terrible traction, and are easy to seperate. The Ice Climber's infinite is seriously not even on anyone's radar at tournaments.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

no, the infinite is very viable for good ice climbers, but most good people have known how to beat ice climbers since melee. go on a platform, seperate them, gimp nana. also, some tournaments ban the standing infinites (ddds and ic's

 

[cutter]

Good luck trying to enforce a ban on the IC's infinites. I've talked with Hylian and he has shown numerous methods to 0-death characters if he gets a grab. He showed me a couple of ways to circumvent the "3 grabs in a row" rule and still 0-death someone.

Found this in one of Hylian's posts:

Really? So does that mean I am only allowed to grab 3 times the entire match? Can I only grab them once? Do I have to do two attacks again before I can grab? 3? I am pretty sure if I throw them, then I fair them with nana, I just did a grab, and then an attack. I am still not allowed to grab? What if I do Throw, to fair, to iceblock? 2 attacks. Can I grab after that? What about, throw to fair to block lock to jab to grab? Is that considered a chaingrab?

You say I can't grab 3 times in a row. So I can still grab, throw 3 times, hit them with an attack, and then grab again? If that is banned then how many attacks am I allowed to do before I can grab again? Can I throw with popo, then footstool them with nana and grab as they get up off the ground? What if I footstool into Ice block into grab? There are so many things I can do with climbers, that you would basically have to ban every single one of my combos. Why not just ban IC's alltogether? What limits me from doing these things? I can infinite someone while only grabbing them once between like 3 hits. Thats not at all grabs in a row. If you ban this, you are going to have to tell me EXACTLY what I can't do, or I will do it. I have MANY death combos. I don't use them, because I don't need to. They are still there.

DDD's infinites shouldn't be banned. Yeah they suck if you're Mario, DK, Luigi, Samus, or Bowser, but the infinite only works on those 5 characters.

 

[Dark Sonic]

no, the infinite is very viable for good ice climbers, but most good people have known how to beat ice climbers since melee. go on a platform, seperate them, gimp nana. also, some tournaments ban the standing infinites (ddds and ic's

Most tournaments don't ban them.

And as you said they are much harder to initiate on good players, so really it's just another n00b killer.

 

[adumbrodeus]

no, the infinite is very viable for good ice climbers, but most good people have known how to beat ice climbers since melee. go on a platform, seperate them, gimp nana. also, some tournaments ban the standing infinites (ddds and ic's

They're not discrete...

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/

Furthermore, they don't render match-ups ineffectual, what makes them ban-worthy?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

DDD's infinites shouldn't be banned. Yeah they suck if you're Mario, DK, Luigi, Samus, or Bowser, but the infinite only works on those 5 characters.

according to zelgadis you can also infinite wolf and other dedede if you are at the ledge, harder to pull off, and you need to refresh with jabs, but its doable

personally, the only infinite i think should be banned are the standing ones, its easy to enforce (tell hylian to keep moving around and hes fine) and all non standing infinites are escapable eventually, usually due to ledges, which would just make them nasty cg's. and this is just due to time issues, every time i get infinited the match runs out of time before the game ends

basically, keep the ice climbers infinite (for it can be avoided with smart play by gimping the nana), however, get rid of the d3 standing infinites, because you cannot eliminate d3's grab the same way you could to ice climbers

it's enforceable, as there are only certain characters that need to be watched (d3), and even then, when someone is standing still for about 30seconds repeatedly grabbing it's noticeable

its discreet. no grabbing without moving, after the second grab (because i will admit slipups happen, so it may be likely for a regrab) you gotta move

and its warranted, ive seen far better players lose to scrubs because there character got infinited, ive even see people counterpick d3, playing him for the first time, and completely annihilating good dk's and luigis

 

[adumbrodeus]

its discreet. no grabbing without moving, after the second grab (because i will admit slipups happen, so it may be likely for a regrab) you gotta move

So, in essence, you move it to a good match-up to DDD... to what?

I don't really see how this is at all fair to the DDD players?

and its warranted, ive seen far better players lose to scrubs because there character got infinited, ive even see people counterpick d3, playing him for the first time, and completely annihilating good dk's and luigis

That's what we generally call a bad match-up. Lots of characters have them. Should we ban Zelda's lightning kick too because it's too good against DDD?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

not just a bad matchup.

melee ganon vs dk was a bad matchup, this is a free win, to the point where i taught my 4 year old cousin how to do it and he can beat good dk and luigi mains

EDIT: also, nobody responded to the dk vs olimar post on the last page, i even got a quote from mr. x on it and everything. opinions on dk vs olimar (after reading what mr. x said)?

 

[adumbrodeus]

melee ganon vs dk was a bad matchup, this is a free win, to the point where i taught my 4 year old cousin how to do it and he can beat good dk and luigi mains

Don't get grabbed, 90-10 match-up. Nuff said.

It happens, but a bad match-up generally doesn't lead to a tactic being banned, and it shouldn't. A tactic is presumed legal, unless it signifigantly reduces the tournament-available cast. This gives them one very bad match-up, either they have other, not quite so bad match-ups or they're already not tournament viable.


What warrants a ban?

 

[DanGR]

DDD's infinite warrants a ban b/c it's too hard to avoid. DDD has a VERY good grab game that's too good to avoid completely. IC chaingrab is avoidable for a couple reasons: you can split them up, they have to be next to each other, small grab range, and a weak inside game. DDD has none of that. It's moderately easy to grab with DDD on any character. DDD's infinite completely shuts down every character it's effected by. You can't argue with that.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

DDD's infinite warrants a ban b/c it's too hard to avoid. DDD has a VERY good grab game that's too good to avoid completely. IC chaingrab is avoidable for a couple reasons: you can split them up, they have to be next to each other, small grab range, and a weak inside game. DDD has none of that. It's moderately easy to grab with DDD on any character. DDD's infinite completely shuts down every character it's effected by. You can't argue with that.

Which infinites though?

If it's the wall infinites, then obviously just ban the Stages where it's counter/anti-competitive

If it's the standing infinites, then that's just tough **** for those 5, the players will just have to counterpick to something else. It's a bad matchup period. Now if it was on nearly EVERYONE on the roster, then it would be banned, but that obviously isn't the case now is it?


This has already been discussed in another topic.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

infiniting, as well as being gay, stalls the match... All stalling techniques are banned and always have been

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

infiniting, as well as being gay, stalls the match... All stalling techniques are banned and always have been

I know if it's used in a case of stalling then yes, it should be liable for a DQ if it goes to ridiculous percents, but otherwise, just use the standing regrabs till like 150-200% and just throw them off.

 

[Dark Sonic]

infiniting, as well as being gay, stalls the match... All stalling techniques are banned and always have been

But we already addressed this in melee! This is why you guys should do some research before debating.

Infinites were legal, but if you continued the infinite past a certain percentage (I think it was like 200 or 300%), then you were considered stalling and could be DQ'd.

not just a bad matchup.

melee ganon vs dk was a bad matchup, this is a free win, to the point where i taught my 4 year old cousin how to do it and he can beat good dk and luigi mains

Shiek vs Bowser? Ice Climbers vs Pichu? Marth vs Mewtwo? Weren't they almost free wins?

Well, this is the same. I taught my cousin how to chaingrab with Shiek. He's never had an easier time against Bowser. Should Shiek's chaingrabbing be banned, while Ice Climber's left alone, because Shiek's is easier? No, you leave it alone because it's not completely broken (and that's as close to broken as you get buddy. Zero to death rediculously easy chaingrab.)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Oh god... poor fox... he gets ***** by Zelda AND shiek.... it should be a HUGE disabvantage for him

 

[asob4]

peach completely dominates olimar
65-35 peach

 

[Adapt]

I'd like to see you take a look at the ZSS matches... They seem very out of date

Examples:
ROB is at least even. (ROB boards say even, ZSS boards say advantage for ZSS)
ZSS has a 0-death on Fox. All it takes is a single stun. Advantage ZSS if not large advantage
Lucario runs all over ZSS... His airgame>ZSS's and a lot of ZSS mains seem to agree he is the hardest or second hardest match


Edit: Sheik matchups are here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174741

 

[Mmac]

Man, Yoshi's section is out of date. Like really out of date! We've been discussing his matchup's with tons of characters got more accurate results Were also trying to be unbiased as possible. The thread can be found in the link below, with more in depth research. But I'll just give out the gist of it here.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176831

Anyways, changes you need to make are:

- Bowser, Small Advantage (Solid Air Game to match Yoshi, but as a Big target, venerable to MultiHit attacks and Eggs + Chaingrab)
- Captain Falcon, Small Advantage (Pivot Grabs shut down almost all of Falcon's Approaches, which also causes him to be chaingrabbed. Also no solid Air Game to match Yoshi's. Might actually a Large Advantage, but still discussing on it)
- Charizard, Neutral (As a big Target, makes Yoshi easier to approach or camp. However he's got a solid Air game and quick kills to counter it. Also can be Chaingrabbed)
- DK, Neutral (Big Target, but has scary range, power, and speed. Also chaingrabbed)
- Falco, Small Advantage (Falco, while still having a good advantage, doesn't completely shut him down and still has ways to approach him. Still an uphill battle, but he can still fight back)
- Ice Climbers, Small Advantage (Can easily separate them and can easily gimp their recovery)
- Ike, Neutral (Same old Big Target and Chaingrab story + Predictable, but can overwhelm Yoshi if he isn't careful. Also harder to grab than the rest)
- Jigglypuff, Small Advantage (Easy Floating Target and is actually out-aired by Yoshi. Also Jigglypuff has a much harder time juggling Yoshi due to DJ Armour)
- Kirby, Neutral (Both of us Yoshi's and Kirby's agreed that this is a pretty fair fight)
- Olimar, Small Advantage (Yoshi's Bair tear's though Olimar's Pikmin)
- Samus, Small Advantage (Is outmatched in the air, and can pressure the Charge Shot)
- Squirtle, Small Advantage (Matchs Yoshi in the air, but can be Chaingrabed and Release to Usmashed Comboed for an easy kill. Plus no solid approach on the ground due to Pivot Grabs)
- Wario, Large Advantage (Found an even EASIER Infinite on him which takes little effort other than timing. He can't escape from this one, it's been tested)

Thats pretty much it what we discussed that is wrong on the list. We're still discussing the other characters, and some that are hard to judge (Yoshi = MetaKnight?)

And remember, this pretty much the sum of our discussions. We discussed the characters we went though so far in depth on the Yoshi Matchup Thread through the link above

 

[gantrain05]

can't say i agree with even half of that stuff about yoshi Mmac, first off, the DK matchup is pretty much overwhelmingly in DKs favor, even if yoshi has a chaingrab, so does bowser, but that doesn't put him automatic advantage towards anyone, and plus, DK can just grab, walk off the edge and throw yoshi into the stage for an easy stage spike since yoshi cannot recover from it, and i think yoshi is gonna have tough luck against a patient defensive spammy spamus, with Zair for mid range spacing, and Fair to outprioritize every single one of yoshis attacks, and trust me i've seen this matchup many times and it never ends well for yoshi.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Samuss Yoshi is a disadvantage for Samus. Se has few methods of dealing ith th egg shells and her Fair is too slow to stop Yoshi's aerial game. he has more combo ability and killing abiltiy and his egg shells basically help stop her ranged game.

I don't use Yoshi often but from what I have heard and seen Yoshi does not do terribly against Samus.

 

[Mmac]

can't say i agree with even half of that stuff about yoshi Mmac, first off, the DK matchup is pretty much overwhelmingly in DKs favor, even if yoshi has a chaingrab, so does bowser, but that doesn't put him automatic advantage towards anyone, and plus, DK can just grab, walk off the edge and throw yoshi into the stage for an easy stage spike since yoshi cannot recover from it, and i think yoshi is gonna have tough luck against a patient defensive spammy spamus, with Zair for mid range spacing, and Fair to outprioritize every single one of yoshis attacks, and trust me i've seen this matchup many times and it never ends well for yoshi.

To be fair, hardly anyone can recover from DK's Cargo Spike unless they have an excellent recovery, but thats only if if they have a low % anyways. Yoshi Chaingrab is nothing like Bowser's Chaingrab at all. Plus it does benefit in his favour because you can constantly move DK (or any of his other CGables other than Wario) over the edge. There's better reasons on why Yoshi has trouble dealing with Defencive DK's than what you said, Mainly due to his incredible range on his Ground Attacks.

About a Spammy Samus. Like Shadow said. Yoshi can constantly put pressure on Samus by Counter-Spamming with the Eggs. Zair is good for combo starting, but other than his Fair, Samus doesn't have much to go for to counter an aerial Yoshi. Plus I think Her Fair can be beaten out by Yoshi's Bair anyways.

Again, I'm just reporting on what we have right now, and don't want to quote everything that was said from there. There's much more reasons in that thread I posted

 

[Kiwikomix]

can't say i agree with even half of that stuff about yoshi Mmac, first off, the DK matchup is pretty much overwhelmingly in DKs favor, even if yoshi has a chaingrab, so does bowser, but that doesn't put him automatic advantage towards anyone, and plus, DK can just grab, walk off the edge and throw yoshi into the stage for an easy stage spike since yoshi cannot recover from it, and i think yoshi is gonna have tough luck against a patient defensive spammy spamus, with Zair for mid range spacing, and Fair to outprioritize every single one of yoshis attacks, and trust me i've seen this matchup many times and it never ends well for yoshi.

Eh.... huh?
Yoshi can just tech DK's edge-throw off the side. It's far too easy to see coming... you have to be suspicious when he runs up to you, grabs you, and starts running toward the edge. Plus Yoshi can escape from the grab just as easily as everyone else if he's not at a high percentage. Can DK escape from chaingrabs? Absolutely not. Really, DK's only saving grace in this matchup is his ftilt. And no one's saying it's an automatic advantage... we're saying it's even.
As for Samus... she can't spam that well, honestly. Charge shot takes forever to get charged, which won't happen if Yoshi is spamming at the same time. Don't even get me started on missiles... they can get outprioritized by bair, which just happens to be Yoshi's main approaching move. Eggs > Samus's projectiles. The whole "fair outprioritizing" thing would be an issue, except that they have zero knockback and do barely any damage, which means Yoshi (or really any character) can just go ahead and use the aerial he was planning to use at only a minor inconvenience.
I'd like to add on the Olimar matchup that egg roll ***** Pikmin. Assuming it's not used for approaching. Which it shouldn't be.

 

[adumbrodeus]

peach completely dominates olimar
65-35 peach

it's not just the d-smash, it's everything.

Olimar can't shield-grab her because she can jab on landing quicker then he can grab, her bair outprioritizes every single move he has, she can approach via her over b which activates when she hits a pikman so it's completely safe if she uses it whenever he overbs.

Her dair also destroys any pikman technique unless the purple is used.

Did I mention her turnips OBLITERATES his recovery?


The match is an 80-20 at best, he has no offense against her, no defense against her if she uses safe techniques.

The entire match-up is an example of how to make a character that perfectly counters another. Sure, he can kill her early but if the peach plays safely none of his attacks should ever hit her.

 

[Dpete]

It's good to see an update, Ivan, especially regarding some of the proposed Kirby matchups.

One of the most debated matchups was Kirby vs Falco. I noticed it was listed in your things to look into as well. As the Kirby Matchup Rankings Weekly Reviews move into their second week, I thought Falco would present a good discussion. I encourage everyone with experience in this matchup to come post your opinions. Just click the link in my sig to go to our thread.

Hopefully these weekly reviews will help work out the bias in our rankings that some of you say we have.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

on dk vs yoshi, the little jab release cg is escapable if the dk just mashes jump

i think burntsocks summed it up

DK has an advantage over yoshi, not too big, but definately. DK can sometimes have trouble approaching aerially, but DK can simply walk foward and ftilt and that screws yoshi over cuz u can get past him egg spam and pivot grabs that way. DKs edgeguarding game is actually amazing at gimping yoshi, something which most characters cant do (rob cant, marth cant). DK can jump back, forcing yoshi to airdodge, then jump back towards the stage and bair, and lots of other gay stuff (curse you axelol). Yoshi does have a few tricks up his sleeve, as if he lands a bair, u can expect to be juggled, since Dks dair isnt the fastest move, and hes a big target. Yoshi can wear down DKs shield with bairs as well, and since hes big, hes easy to shield stab. Overall DK has the advantage, probably 6-4 or 7-3.

 

[gantrain05]

Eh.... huh?
Yoshi can just tech DK's edge-throw off the side. It's far too easy to see coming... you have to be suspicious when he runs up to you, grabs you, and starts running toward the edge. Plus Yoshi can escape from the grab just as easily as everyone else if he's not at a high percentage. Can DK escape from chaingrabs? Absolutely not. Really, DK's only saving grace in this matchup is his ftilt. And no one's saying it's an automatic advantage... we're saying it's even.
As for Samus... she can't spam that well, honestly. Charge shot takes forever to get charged, which won't happen if Yoshi is spamming at the same time. Don't even get me started on missiles... they can get outprioritized by bair, which just happens to be Yoshi's main approaching move. Eggs > Samus's projectiles. The whole "fair outprioritizing" thing would be an issue, except that they have zero knockback and do barely any damage, which means Yoshi (or really any character) can just go ahead and use the aerial he was planning to use at only a minor inconvenience.
I'd like to add on the Olimar matchup that egg roll ***** Pikmin. Assuming it's not used for approaching. Which it shouldn't be.

i might agree w/ u on DK a bit, but in order to tech the bottom or side of the stage after dks throw still takes some really good skills, plus dk will be hanging on that edge when u are coming back so u gotta make it all the way back up, and samus missiles aren't just about the damage, even if they are outprioritized by Bair, that pretty much sets yoshi up, seeing as he will either Bair into the missiles to get rid of them, and any samus main knows that her homing missiles are easily outprioritized so they are used as approach and for setups, it limits the options yoshi has to approach and makes it easier for samus to see whats coming.

and Fair does more than just a little bit of inconvenience, u aren't going to get samus with an arial after she hits u with Fair, especially if samus just stays in front of yoshi, all he has then is his Nair or Fair, and they are either slow or don't have enuf range to punish, sure if she lands behing yoshi he can Bair, but not many samus are going to fall into that position.