Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Smashbros_7]

Actually Ness isn't light, he's actually mid weight, (slightly lighter than Sonic) But you agreed to the matchup being neutral right?

 

[Smashbros_7]

Don't tell me what to do and what not to do.

Ohh, Im scared! You gonna sit on me? Face it dude, you just prefer the Zelda=Ness matchup because you lost to a Zelda like several times. Don't tell me yout only experience against a Zelda player was against your friend ONLINE! With button lag, your recording equipment made you lag, and you were playing as Ness, who has trouble playing online. Dude don't take that tone.

 

[rageagainst]

Ohh, Im scared! You gonna sit on me? Face it dude, you just prefer the Zelda=Ness matchup because you lost to a Zelda like several times. Don't tell me yout only experience against a Zelda player was against your friend ONLINE! With button lag, your recording equipment made you lag, and you were playing as Ness, who has trouble playing online. Dude don't take that tone.

I'm a zelda main and this chart is pretty spot on for zelda's matchups. She almost has all good matchups,, but playing as her, you have to know her hard counters, and Ness is one of them.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ohh, Im scared! You gonna sit on me? Face it dude, you just prefer the Zelda=Ness matchup because you lost to a Zelda like several times. Don't tell me yout only experience against a Zelda player was against your friend ONLINE! With button lag, your recording equipment made you lag, and you were playing as Ness, who has trouble playing online. Dude don't take that tone.

Hey smashbros.
Either back up what you say or refrain from hitting the post button.

Otherwise, you're only going to add to the 300.000 other moronic posts in this topic.


*looks at above*
how is ness a hard counter?

A hard counter for Zelda would be G&W.
The character that counters Zelda has to do the following.

Beat her aerially (many fulfill this)
KO her early (less can since those that KO quickly have poor aerial games)
Break her ground game (even fewer can do so)

What does this leave?

Probably G&W, Marth and Falco.

 

[Clai]

Except ROB can go for another Dsmash which is faster than EVERYTHING that Ganondorf has.
Let alone the fact ROB can camp him to death.

ROB's Dsmash has just enough cooldown for Ganondorf to grab ROB. This is assuming that Ganon is next to ROB, which again, would explain why ROB would ever need to spotdodge in the first place.

Ganon can dodge through lasers and gyros all day. If that's what you mean by "camp him to death" then it's not a valid point. My earlier post explains all the other situations and why a smart Ganon player will need a lot more than "being camped to death" to be brought down.

R.O.B. should have a big advantage vs. Ganondorf.

You deserve be facepalmed. NOW!

I'm guessing this matchup hasn't been experienced very often. We need more Ganon-ROB matches, with good Ganons, to see what this matchup is really like.

 

[DanGR]

I agree with that last sentence^. It's sad to see people discuss Yoshi's matchups when they've never seen a good one.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Time to stop talking about Ness or Zelda

I propose to change IC's vs Lucario to neutral or small check for IC's Why?
-Lucario's range isnt too different from the IC's range, especially in the air, the only attack with substancial more range would be u-smash or f-smash, while u-air out ranges d-air one both respectivaly. Theyre atacka are also about the same speed, with some exceptions
-Ice block cancels out Aura Sphere, 2 ICs means one block cancels out the AS, and the other continues, so IC's can technically out camp him, and one of his vital kill moves is nullified
-Neither or their recoveries are spectacular, and no one really out gimps the other easily, although IC's can spike and Lucario can seperate the IC's
-Lucario cant chaingrab with Force palm since a climber casn counter attack while he grabs the other. Not a big deal, but its something. This also applies to normal grabs, but those are harder to counter attack
-Ic's can obvoiously alternate grab, and he's one of the easier ones to AG since he's large and floaty

 

[ShadowLink84]

ROB's Dsmash has just enough cooldown for Ganondorf to grab ROB. This is assuming that Ganon is next to ROB, which again, would explain why ROB would ever need to spotdodge in the first place.

you would be surprised. For one they can spotdodge an Ftilt or any other move.
Ganondorf has to be right up close to ROB which is not going to happen

Ganon can dodge through lasers and gyros all day. If that's what you mean by "camp him to death" then it's not a valid point. My earlier post explains all the other situations and why a smart Ganon player will need a lot more than "being camped to death" to be brought down.

Dodge them how?
He's going to dodge angled lasers, gyros on the ground? No he won't he'll go into the air where ROB is far far superior to him in every way.
Bring up these posts please so I can discuss them since frankly, I do not see any method that Ganondorf has of approaching ROB safely

 

[DanGR]

I vouch for Olimar>>Jiggs. She has nothing on Olimar, except for upair>dair. Olimar has the range and kill power to just dominate her frail little body. I mean there really isn't anything the poor pokemon can do to try and win. I just checked the Jiggs boards as well. They seem to agree with me: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182806

Also, what does Lucas and Samus have over Yoshi? Samus is at a clear disadvantage against Yoshi.

 

[Mmac]

Also, what does Lucas and Samus have over Yoshi? Samus is at a clear disadvantage against Yoshi.

Well, other than Wario vs. Yoshi and Falco vs. Yoshi, He's been relatively untouched since this Matchup Chart was made in March. The Matchup's are still based upon the first impression of that character.

I still don't know the reason on why Falco has a Major Advantage against Yoshi. I never saw any discussion on him in this thread or in the corresponding Falco Matchup Thread about it. While I do agree that Falco does have a rather good advantage against him, He doesn't at all shut him down

 

[Kiwikomix]

Not gonna lie, Falco is one of the harder Yoshi matchups, if not the hardest. Yoshi outperforms him once you actually get a hit, but he's impossible to approach. But I don't think it's a large disadvantage, because I'm pretty sure it has to be 8:2 for that to happen.

 

[Kasai]

Metaknight's up-b is one of the hardest moves to see coming, even as a "predictable" edgeguard..

First of all, you contradict yourself in that line stating that it's hard to see coming and predictable at the same time. Second, as one of MK's only decent kill moves, it's quite easy to see coming, especially when off stage.

Regardless, even with the move, like I said before and you completely disregarded, Lucario is still going to be killing earlier, out prioritizing and out ranging (for everything that matters) MK which makes the matchup at the very least, even.

Honestly, the whole time this matchup chart has been around, at least as far as I've been helping to develop it, there has always been a need for an argument (or at least a line stating "Character X is > character Y.") Without any of this it was changed when it's obviously not an advantage for metaknight. If you want to argue it with anything more than "MK can kill lucario with upB"(which doesn't change the matchup regardless) feel free to but if you just plan on completely disregarding the opinions of the mains of the character in question, then there is a lot less hope for this chart than I had previously thought.

 

[Coraircate]

The only one with an advantage against Meta Knight is Snake? No.

 

[Kasai]

The only one with an advantage against Meta Knight is Snake? No.

According to the chart? No. Both DK and snake have advantages.

 

[Brinzy]

Ohh, Im scared! You gonna sit on me? Face it dude, you just prefer the Zelda=Ness matchup because you lost to a Zelda like several times. Don't tell me yout only experience against a Zelda player was against your friend ONLINE! With button lag, your recording equipment made you lag, and you were playing as Ness, who has trouble playing online. Dude don't take that tone.

*******, I've beaten him several times before and uploaded my worst matches with him. Quit being an idiot already.

I do have experience vs. Zelda in real life, and my Zelda has faced Ness as well. It's all the same stuff. You're just pissed off because I'm not lying about Ness's false advantage for the sake of competing with other characters.

Time to stop talking about Ness or Zelda

Time to start ignoring the match-ups you don't give a **** about (like me) and stop complaining.

*looks at above*
how is ness a hard counter?

He isn't. Hard counter is anything 7:3 or worst.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Dude, raph you need to calm down fast. OH WAIT, I can't tell you what to do. Of course, seeing as Ness ISN'T a hard counter to Zelda, and is probably 6-4 for Ness, (No t7-3) thats IMO. Of course raph can keep on complaining about a matchup instead of moving on. You need to work on other matchups vs Ness. Like Squirtle or Shiek, instead of *****ing about one matchup. Seriously, main Zelda and get it over with it.

 

[RikotheFoxKid]

Dude, this is so cool!

I'm not sure if this has already been said, but I think you should treat the Pokémon Trainer as one character. It's too difficult to stay as one Pokémon. If you die, you automatically switch, and it takes a lot of time to get back to your favorite one, and with Stamina, you can't keep one out for too long.

 

[Brinzy]

Dude, raph you need to calm down fast. OH WAIT, I can't tell you what to do. Of course, seeing as Ness ISN'T a hard counter to Zelda, and is probably 6-4 for Ness, (No t7-3) thats IMO. Of course raph can keep on complaining about a matchup instead of moving on. You need to work on other matchups vs Ness. Like Squirtle or Shiek, instead of *****ing about one matchup. Seriously, main Zelda and get it over with it.

Or, you can quit worrying about all of my posts and just back out. I already worked on those two, but as long as we're on some "it's my verdict despite not knowing much about either character" thing with this chart, I won't work on any others.

 

[mood4food77]

ganon has the advantage against falcon.....i know this for a fact

i think he also has one against bowser

and ganon does not have a huge disadvantage against olimar

 

[Tenki]

Dude, this is so cool!

I'm not sure if this has already been said, but I think you should treat the Pokémon Trainer as one character. It's too difficult to stay as one Pokémon. If you die, you automatically switch, and it takes a lot of time to get back to your favorite one, and with Stamina, you can't keep one out for too long.

It's more important to know which of the pokemon have an advantage or disadvantage.

false example:
"oh look, PT has advantage over Snake!" [only Charizard does; Squirtle and Ivysaur have problems against him]
"I'll use Squirtle first!" *dies* "argghh wtf I thought this was supposed to be an easy matchup!"
"Maybe Ivysaur will do better?" *dies* "..."
"GO! Charizard!" *takes off a stock and a half before losing the match* "Oh. wut. I should have just opened with Charizard!"

edit:
But like tier lists, this chart shouldn't actually affect your gameplay- but it's (supposed to be) a good reference in case you haven't actually played the matchup yet. Learning the matchups for yourself is probably the best way to learn it. If you're using a character with a disadvantage to another one, then you'll have to play more defensively/alter your gameplay if you want to win.

 

[popsofctown]

this is going to affect gameplay. People who have two mains and have never used either against X character are going to be using this chart. Should they? I guess.

 

[Guppi]

Yoshi not so botched

Everyone always says Yoshi is the worst thing ever, but he got a whole lot better in Brawl

Check the super armor on his double jump, and his horizontal/slightly vertical recovery capabilities on his mid-air B-up.

He's got decent range on his smashes, and some pretty good vertical kill moves. plus if you can use eggs right, they rack up damage pretty quick, bout 10 damage each at the start.

I don't play Yoshi personally, but my friend does and he most definitely holds his own. I just think these things need to be taken into account.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Its not super armor its heavy armor.
get the info straight.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Fox's match ups aren't quite correct. He has large advantages vs. Ganondorf, CF and Bowser, imo

 

[Union of Darkness]

ganon has the advantage against falcon.....i know this for a fact

i think he also has one against bowser

and ganon does not have a huge disadvantage against olimar

Have you ever fought Olimar with Ganondorf? It's not easy. At all.

 

[The Executive]

Have you ever fought Olimar with Ganondorf? It's not easy. At all.

QFT. Not one of Ganon's better fights to pick.

 

[hulk hands]

can anyone tell me how zelda is a counter for snake

 

[Brinzy]

She is? I've never heard of that before.

EDIT: In fact, she's disadvantaged against him. Are you reading the chart properly?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda plays even with Ness... that simple. An advantage on either side is FAR too slight to make the call

as for snake... if anything... HE has the advantage... but it's a pretty even matchup.

 

[popsofctown]

Its not super armor its heavy armor.
get the info straight.

what's heavy armor?

 

[Tenki]

like.. conditional super armor. Has the super armor effect but with a limit to how much knockback it can protect against.

a bunch of moves can knock Snake off of Cypher for example, but he has the SA effect against weaker ones.

 

[Candide]

Peach is jealous of Meta Knight's column...
However, as a hypocrite-aristocrat, she guffaws at Ganondorf.

Seriously, though, at a glance, this looks somewhat accurate.
And how sad it is that in 7 years of development and a postponement, Nintendo still couldn't manage to make a near-perfectly balanced roster...

 

[popsofctown]

I still think they didn't want to.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

So why is Squirtle so poor?

P.S: I'm only showing interest in squirtle because he's the only character who has a 1 frame jab that doesn't suck.

 

[-__-]

So why is Squirtle so poor?

P.S: I'm only showing interest in squirtle because he's the only character who has a 1 frame jab that doesn't suck.

2 frame ZSS has the fastest

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Ivan, can I suggest you change the Peach Matchup link? We now have a new match up thread that is coming along nicely. The old one turned into a massive ***** fight about whether Peach could beat/was better than Marth isn't used anymore

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

2 frame ZSS has the fastest

Squirtle and Zss are 1 frame jabs. They can both hit people out of their shields from a grab release.

Lucas has a 2 frame jab. It gets powershielded from a grab release.

 

[-__-]

Squirtle and Zss are 1 frame jabs. They can both hit people out of their shields from a grab release.

Lucas has a 2 frame jab. It gets powershielded from a grab release.

lies

10char

 

[Dark Nemesis]

So why is Squirtle so poor?

P.S: I'm only showing interest in squirtle because he's the only character who has a 1 frame jab that doesn't suck.

Maybe because the jab doesn't give him an advantage?

 

[-__-]

Maybe because the jab doesn't give him an advantage?

lol being able to break marths sword dance with a jab isnt an advantage? jab cancel to uptilts to upair to nair isnt an advantage?