Ganon should really only use F-tilt for defensive purposes anyway. It all depends on how the Ganon makes his approach and how the ROB plans to stop it. As I said, I think the people I've played made it a little too easy for me to approach and then went into panic mode (spotdodge into dsmash) which I was able to read and predict.
What they should be doing is that if Ganondorf is that close they should back into a SH Bair. Shuffle back then moe forard into Ganondorf knocking him away from the user. Or many other options that they have, breaking into spotdodge Dsmash is somewhayt predictable.
Why not Shield~Bair?
Gyro's can be shielded, lasers can be airdodged. Ganondorf doesn't necessarily have to be in the air for that long. Besides, exactly how does ROB **** Ganon in the air?
Gyros can be shielded but the lasers can be angled. Air dodging them would only force you into being defensive and force you into approaching. Atwhich point ROB has many more safe options than Ganondorf does, both aerially and groundwise.
Ganondorf's lo ground speed also means he won't be getting close to ROB very quickly which is an important method of stopping ROB's spam game since he isn't really capable of using his projectiles up close (due to the startup time).
Yes you can shield and air dodge, but in doing so you leave yourself vulnerable.
The projectiles are necessarily to keep Ganondorf away and rack damage, simply to slow him down further and bait him into a position where ROB can dominate.
Similar to what Snake does.
Many of Ganondorf's aerials are not useful beyond SH height (the exceptions of this being the Dair and Uair.
ROB is capable of beating Ganondorf aerially simply on two things.
His aerials do not have the same amount of cooldown time as Ganondorf does, they stop his momentum (Bair and Dair) and they have high amounts of priority.
The only ones that are necessarily slow are his Bair, Dair and Nair, all of which make up for this with their high amounts of priority and their lingering hitboxes.
So even when the attack ends, Ganondorf could still be hit.
Let alone the fact that ROB is much faster in the air than Ganondorf, so if Ganondorf misses an aerial he risks getting punished (other than the Uair and that can be broken by the Dair or Nair)
Ganondorf and ROB are both, by nature, campers. ROB because it has its projectiles and its movement and speed are better suited with driving away approachers than with approaching itself. Ganon's a camper because he's too slow to approach effectively. When matched up with someone who plays at a speed faster than his own, Ganon gets *****; but I found that he's actually quite effective when playing an opponent whose playstyle speed matches the player's own. ROB's ground and aerial speed are too slow to mess with Ganon's head, and that's the basis of this neutrality argument.
THe issue with this is that a camper by definition is simply someone who plays extremely defensive. Staying at one end wher the opponent cannot reach them.
hen Ganondorf faces any opponent that is faster than him without projectiles (Sonic for example), he has issues not because he cannot approach but because they are capable of capitalizing on his weaknesses.
his poor recovery, his rather slow attack speed means he can still be countered even if the opponent attacks after he does.
He doesn't camp because camping would mean he is creating a wall and keeping the opponent away or out. Ganondorf does not do this.
He has no method to camp from afar with and is too slow to make use of long range.
hence against most characters he is either going to be on the offensive (ROB) or defensive (Sonic), neither of which suit him.
ROB isn't the fastest in the air that is true, however he is faster than Ganondorf and has greater mobility than Ganondorf can dream of, he can use his Bairs to get a boost forward when moving backward or stop his movement with his Dairs.
Wihle their movement speed may not differ greatly, aerially ROB is more capable because of his mobility and capability of staying in the air for long periods of time. Something that Ganondorf does not have.
There is also the fact that many of ROB's moves are faster than many of Ganondorf's moves.
So while he may not be faster movement wise, attack wise he beats Ganondorf which is a major wakness for Ganondorf since he has no method of speeding up his game.
Considering that ROB can fling projectiles all day, Ganondorf will eventually have to approach ROB. Of course, this is best when ROB recently used his gyro/lasers. Ganon can easily SHAD a laser or a gyro thrown at him; if done by succession, Ganon should just SHAD the first projectile and shield the next one.
The issue with this is that it relies on precise timing. Something that cannot be done with ease. Now one is gauranteed to be murdered by the projectiles but agaiun, the intent of these projectiles is to slow Ganondorf, to force him to the ground and have ROB capable of maintaing pressure.
If Ganon ends up sheilding the gyro, he should just wait for the gyro to run out or grab it using a dash attack, because standing between ROB and a gyro is just stupid.
If there isn't a gyro on the ground, Wizard's Foot, dash attacks, and short-hop Flame Chokes are the best way to approach him- Flame Chokes needing to be short-hopped so it could go over ROB's d-smash, by far his quickest technique when he's on the ground. Ganon's D-smash also outranges ROB's d-smash, and when used correctly, sends ROB over and behind Ganon, which is perfect for Ganon to follow up with up-air because ROB's nair is slower than Ganon's uair and Ganon should be below the range of ROB's bair.
ROB isn't going to spam his Dsmash.While his Dsmash is ridiculously fast the move itself laves him vulnerable. hence he will probably use his tilts, all of hich are fast and leave little to no opponent.
Ganondorf's Dsmash does out range ROB's Dsmash, but it is much slower by comparison and so is not difficult to avoid.
SH flame chokes are to be expect and an Ftilt can break it with little risk to ROB.
Dashattacks are risky because when you are on the ground a ROB will space his projectile use so that he can follow up with a laser. At which point you would be forced to shield the attack.
Ganondorf is just too slow movement speed as well as attack speed to approach ROB effectively. Of course once he does knock ROB down he has a great number of options available but afterwards what can he do? best thing to jhappen is he follows with a wizards foot or another flame choke, but he has no method of maintaining the pressure.
The Uair will not work because of ROB's Dair let alone the fact that ROB can stay in the air and wait for Ganondorf t land on the ground and maintain spacing. Nor is Ganondorf going to be capable of keeping ROB in the air.
On the topic of aerials, Ganon's up-air has farther range than ROB's fair, while being faster than ROB's nair and d-air.
Except that the Nair and Dair have greater priority and break Ganondorf's Uair.
This really relies on ROB being higher up than Ganondorf and from there ROB still has the ability to get to the ground relatively safely.He can easily wait out Ganondorf then go back to the ground and reset the situation to nuetral, forcing Ganondorf to work just as hard as he did in the beginning to gain an advantage. An advantage that offers liuttle reward for the large amount of risk involved.
Not only that the Bair can push ROb out of range for the Uair at which point you cannot pursue because ROB is faster in the air and will use that Bair if you attempt to attack to increase the distance.
Basically, ROB's foward quadrant and lower quadrant are threatened by Ganon because of that up-air. It also means that ROB can't effectively edgegaurd Ganon unless somehow Ganon's back is facing ROB. ROB also has to watch out in case Ganon decides to go suicidal and teach ROB about trying to edgegarud him. Ganon obviously cannot edgegaurd ROB unless it somehow gets below Ganon, in which case it should watch out for a reverse uair or a regular Ganon-spike. This shouldn't happen, because Ganon doesn't have any moves that send ROB in a downward trajectory and close enough that Ganon can follow up with an attack before ROB flies away.
The suicide is definitely not a good move because ROB can easily edgehog Ganondorf.
Let alone the fact that ROB's Bair, Fair, Dair and Nair will break the side B each time.
Ganondorf has no method to prevent ROb from edgeguarding him since the most he can do is side B and suicide which most likely won't happen because of ROB's good mobility in the air. As well as the fact that his Fair can break the choke.
Off stage Ganondorf is at a severe disadvantage and he can easily stay just above Ganondorf so he can use a Dair to bait a suicide or spike Ganondorf with no risk at all.
Both sides are going to have trouble killing each other. ROB doesn't have many kill moves that have enough range that ROB can get near Ganon without worrying about being grabbed, flame-choked, D-smashed, or auto-canceled d-air'd.
Not really. He cna use his laser, gyro and Bairs to pressure and force Ganondorf off. He uis faste rthan Ganondorf attack wise so the range is little issue.
Flame choke does nothing to an aerial ROb and the Dsmash is too slow to be landed.
An autocanceled air would get Faired so Ganondorf cannot keep ROB away very easily.
The same thing applying to Ganon, who's going to make most of his moves stale trying to damage ROB and may need to land a f-tilt or b-air to finally take the stock. Certainly, that luck can also apply to ROB and landing his kill moves as well, so we definately can't favor one side over another as to which side can kill the other first.[/quote
I disagre. Ganondorf has difficulty approaching and has difficulty landing the killing moves due to ROB ability to say out of Ganondorf's reach. Even if Ganondorf is within reach, his faster moves are still too slow to be used effectively since they typically will not kill ROB and ROB is more than adept at getting back to the stage and resetting the match to nuetral.
Ganondorf simply has too few methods of maintaining an advantage or maintaining the pressure on ROB.
