Brawl is competitive. (Finished editing post)

[h1roshi]

Hey, it's my 4000th post. I thought i would use it to share my thoughts on brawls competitiveness.

So there are a lot of mixed feelings about brawl being good/competitive/better than melee. I've been hearing a lot of people saying they are worried about it's competitive nature and it's success. A lot of these claims are usually based around the fact that brawl doesnt have advanced tactic A or advanced tactic B. I disagree.

The thing with brawl is, the advanced techs, IMHO, are more revolved around the characters, then general techs themselves. You must look for the advanced techs in your character choice, moreso than general common techs.

Little things like, Diddy's rocketspiking, or his insane banana game. Kirby's final cutter spike.
DDD's chaingrabbing. Metaknight/pit/charizard's weird glide ability and attacking out of it for some quick nifty moves. Pikmin crazy ability to rack up massive damage. Squirtles hydroplaning and shellshifting. Snake's crazy explosive tactics.

These are just a few examples. But basically, go to a tournament, and you will instantly see how competitive brawl is.

STOP COMPARING IT TO MELEE!!!! As hard as it is, you have to stop comparing it. As long as you do, it will be easy for you to find flaws. "There is no wavedashing/l-canceling/advanced techs" OK, that may be true, but brawl doesnt nedd that stuff. Brawl is a very different game and so you cant nessesarily apply similar tactics and strategies. Brawl isn't immediately worse because it doesn't have those stuff, it just means it's different. We will learn to adapt to this new game. For instance, now we are more floaty and can air dodge and keep jumping or attacking. This opens up different ways of playing. Yes it's slower, but that just means you have more time to think. More time to mindgame your opponent. Think about slow-mo melee in ssbm. Just cause it was slower didn't make it easier to win. Yoi still have to think and your opponent is playing with the same condition. We just gotta adapt. It came out the other day. Give it some time guys.

-hiro

 

[Fugue]

Tripping.
GG.

 

[Frey]

Yeah like dededes infinite grab or training on sweetspotting the edge with his upb. I like brawl because it reminds me of the 64 version, heck even the online is like kailleras lol. Brings back memories of isai kicking our ***** despite it being a 3 on 1.

 

[Fire52388]

I think one of the greatest things about brawl is not just that it's competitive but that such a high percentage of the total characters are tourney material. I'm not going to be one of those people claiming for no tiers, but there is clearly a fair amount of balance placed in Brawl; much better than Melee. I've found that if I'm playing with friends, who are around the same skill level as me, character choice, for the most part, doesn't have as much of an effect on wins or loses.

 

[Smo]

I've only played Brawl a bit but what I played didn't seem... right. it would of course be possible to play competitively, but there are some things which just don't make it as good as melee.
The insane diminishing moves, the way that defence is the best way to win in any situation and the lack of kill moves/combos. And tripping, of course.
In the thing which made Melee "competitive" was the way that one must use all the techniques they can do beat the techniques of the opponent using mindgames and normal techniques. Brawl seems to just be about sheilding and doing a move.
Melee you could wavedash out the way, do a nippy little shffl'd Nair to tell them to back off, JC a grab before they get the attack in... brawl just seems to be shield and attack. It's like an RTS where there is only one usable unit, like a tank which can attack air, is cheap and easy to spam. Not really any options for winning except to use this tank. It's a good game, but I don't think it's got the same "pitting your mind and technical ability against that of your opponent" that Melee had.

 

[Fugue]

The changes made to the knockback reduction are actually not that bad- it encourages attack diversity, and forces you to be either more selective in your attacks or be willing to use some otherwise lame moves as a spamming sponge or something to recover your kill moves.

It's the increase in randomness and the shift towards defensive play. Only a handful of characters still have an approach that could be considered "safe" against someone who knows how to play, and from what I've seen so far almost everyone is better off sitting back and waiting for the enemy to come to them. This is not conducive to a great tourney scene, unless you find camping enthralling.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

Can't we just play the game and not worry about things like competitiveness?

 

[PXG]

Can't we just play the game and not worry about things like competitiveness?

The competitiveness of Brawl is a matter for competitive players and does not involve or pertain to casual players. If you aren't a competitive player, then this issue should not be of your concern.

 

[Vijin]

Can't we just play the game and not worry about things like competitiveness?

You should change your name to "Pikachu'sDunceCap." It's more fitting for you.

 

[error_alt_delete]

in melee It's like an RTS where there is only one usable unit, like a tank which can attack air, is cheap and easy to spam. Not really any options for winning except to use this tank.

fixed it for ya.

Spoiler

if you dont know, its fox

 

[brawlpro]

You should change your name to "Pikachu'sDunceCap." It's more fitting for you.

Don't say something like that because he's a casual who doesn't know much.

Hiro, yeah but the thing is, melee had characters with their own general tactics and advanced tech A and B, even if brawl's competitive because of characters having their own stuff that can be used for competitiveness, I still can't see it being as well as melee in the tourney scene which I was hoping for since 06. lol I know you weren't comparing the two games but this was a rant =)

/rant + somewhat on topic.

 

[Frey]

Well pro, Melee does still have more competitive tricks, but give brawl some time, and who knows, we may find a killer universal move in the future(like how us dedede guys found the rocket dash trick(which makes you go 100 miles an hour with his super hammer).
I for one like how brawl makes guys like bowser and dedede able to be used competitively.

 

[Smashed Potatoes]

Brawl is a different game from melee. It will be competitive in its own way...we just need to be able to cope with change.

 

[JesiahTEG]

http://www.wifiwars.com/?q=node/387

 

[ThePrime]

Yeah, im kind of a hypocrite when i say give brawl time because i am kind of disapointed in how much they changed/took out. But lol, give it time, omnigamer already made a tactics/tricks as part of his battle-ready series and the game hasnt even been out for a month. It took years to find adv techs in melee.

 

[-NEOLINK-]

Exactly, Melee took years to develop some of its most important techs, now with brawl, there are new techs for you to discover, test, learn, and master. With brawl however we shall be discovering new techs at a much faster rate due to our knowledge from Melee and our attitude to bettering ourselves and our potential. Some brawl techs however will only be character specific, meaning you'll have to work harder to master your main and help contribute techs/strategies/mindgames to Smash Boards if you can.

 

[AznHalfCaucasian]

Tripping.
GG.

FoRizzle

*Trips while responding to the message*

 

[DanteSmash7]

For the morons who think exploiting on wave dashing was skill. Well, it wasn't. It was not a design made on purpose. That being said. Brawl has more competitive factors. Its better shaped. And every character has their weakness and strong points.

 

[Broly]

I have to agree with Brawl being competitive. Can you really say, i can win this tourny with mario, link, bowser, kirby, pikachu, ganon, in melee? I doubt it due to fox, marth, shiek. now its all depends on the skill. But i do agree that shield camping may hurt Brawl, but theres bound to b ways around it.

 

[shanus]

While I think there is still plenty to discover in brawl, I doubt it can ever be quite the competitive beast that was its predecessor. This is largely due to the fact that the absence of general ATs to apply to all characters (beyond that of individual metagames) as well as due to the defensive nature that is brawl. If play continues this way, the sheer nature of a purely shield camp / punish approach game will never yield the diversity that was present in melee.

 

[Fugue]

I don't get what the big deal is about regarding whether or not a developer wanted something in a game, and I'm a programmer myself.

Jump Installs were originally a glitch in the Guilty Gear X engine, but they were so popular and useful Arc System Works added them to the GGXX series as actual move properties.

And wanna guess what the first thing to pop into my mind is whenever someone says, "That's the way Sakurai wanted it?"

"Design is law."

Plenty of great things came out of 'mistakes,' and plenty of epic failures went 100% according to their (flawed) design plan. It's not an argument.


And Broly, give Brawl a while to establish it's metagame. I'm pretty sure you're going to see exactly the same thing, just with different names in each tier.

 

[Kilikan]

I have to agree with Brawl being competitive. Can you really say, i can win this tourny with mario, link, bowser, kirby, pikachu, ganon, in melee? I doubt it due to fox, marth, shiek. now its all depends on the skill. But i do agree that shield camping may hurt Brawl, but theres bound to b ways around it.

Hello grab, hello projectiles.

 

[NukeA6]

I don't get what the big deal is about regarding whether or not a developer wanted something in a game, and I'm a programmer myself.

Jump Installs were originally a glitch in the Guilty Gear X engine, but they were so popular and useful Arc System Works added them to the GGXX series as actual move properties.

And wanna guess what the first thing to pop into my mind is whenever someone says, "That's the way Sakurai wanted it?"

"Design is law."

Plenty of great things came out of 'mistakes,' and plenty of epic failures went 100% according to their (flawed) design plan. It's not an argument.


And Broly, give Brawl a while to establish it's metagame. I'm pretty sure you're going to see exactly the same thing, just with different names in each tier.

After reading this post, I think I understand why the Melee elitists are giving harsh rants for Brawl.

Back in Street Fighter II, there was a glitch that made Dhalsim seem that he was teleporting. In a later version, Dhalsim was given a real teleport move. Also, combos were discovered in Street Fighter II unintentionally. This became popular and now exists in just about every fighting game you can think of.

Melee has wave-dashing and I'm sure that was unintentional. It became popular and was a common tactic used by the great Melee players. It was expected that it would return in Brawl as an official technique but that did not happen.

 

[brawlpro]

For the morons who think exploiting on wave dashing was skill. Well, it wasn't.

The only reason I see people like you call people like me names is because what I do is too hard for you. I don't see why else you would call us morons.

Skill means ability, coming from knowledge, something mastered by practice, and in melee wavedash worked, and with the skill of wavedashing you would have a skill over the game that made you win in some cases.

 

[Broly]

After reading this post, I think I understand why the Melee elitists are giving harsh rants for Brawl.

Back in Street Fighter II, there was a glitch that made Dhalsim seem that he was teleporting. In a later version, Dhalsim was given a real teleport move. Also, combos were discovered in Street Fighter II unintentionally. This became popular and now exists in just about every fighting game you can think of.

Melee has wave-dashing and I'm sure that was unintentional. It became popular and was a common tactic used by the great Melee players. It was expected that it would return in Brawl as an official technique but that did not happen.

Have to ask wheather the new air dodge system affected wave-dashing or can it be incorporated in it. Realistically, i feel w/ the speed of brawl, wavedash would still not be the answer.

 

[Fugue]

Wow, I can't believe I forgot about Combos.
Yes, people, combos, now nearly synonymous with the term "Fighter," were originally an unintentional glitch.

It's not (or at least, shouldn't be) about whether or not it was intended. It's about whether or not it improves the gameplay. Wavedashing and L-Cancel made quite a few otherwise unplayable characters in high-level Melee combat viable, and didn't do much to make the top tiers any more broken than they already were. And they didn't affect casual play, because casuals didn't use them and weren't forced to in any way, shape, or form.

I really don't care about most of the AT's being removed. What bothers me is that they were removed, yet didn't get replaced with something to help accomplish the character balancing they added. It's very likely to skew tiers down the line. Not guaranteed, but way more likely than it would have been, and completely unneccesary to boot.

 

[mikee8728]

The only reason I see people like you call people like me names is because what I do is too hard for you. I don't see why else you would call us morons.

Skill means ability, coming from knowledge, something mastered by practice, and in melee wavedash worked, and with the skill of wavedashing you would have a skill over the game that made you win in some cases.

Well said. Melee not only had wavedashing, but a lot of other techniques. It gave the game incredible replay value. That's what "Melee Elitists" are having problems with. Will brawl have the same replay value as melee even though brawl might be shallow in comparison? Well see.

 

[hoopspr226]

@ DanteSmash7:

GTFO

 

[chic]

Seems fine.. The only thing that really bothers me is that **** tripping!

 

[pesticide]

yea i totally agree. most of the adv stuff comes from your certain character.

diddy's rocketspiking and bananas like u mentioned
olimars ordering of pikmin with the whistle, and his super armor w/ it
etc.

(those are my two mains, so those are the adv techs i know of and use right now)

there arent many adv techs that apply to ALL chars. the techs mainly apply to one specific char.

that's how i see it so far at least...

 

[Wyvernkni]

I don't think anyone truly means that Brawl "Isn't competitive", it just isn't to the degree of Melee. Of course it can be played competitively, and many people will probably play it as such...

 

[Firebert]

Well said. Melee not only had wavedashing, but a lot of other techniques. It gave the game incredible replay value. That's what "Melee Elitists" are having problems with. Will brawl have the same replay value as melee even though brawl might be shallow in comparison? Well see.

Besides, think of how long it took to discover wavedashing. From the looks of Brawl, I'm expecting many new advanced techniques to be developed as the years go on.

 

[Mechanine]

Hey, guys, c'mon. I know I havn't been here long, and such an opinion really merits little support, but really - what is it with everyone and his/her problem with tripping? The first thing everyone will blurt is that "It's unfair!" and "It destroys the 'competitiveness'". I mean, really - how unfair can it be, when it happens to EVERYONE at the same chance? If one character tripped ten times more than another - which would logically make sense, given the dexterity gap between bounty hunters and little kids - maybe there'd be a valid point, but when its a common hazard to all, I don't see how its unfair. Its just bad luck. Like, say you're playing competitively, and your hand cramps. Then what? It all boils down to the same thing - chance - so just roll with it.

 

[LUCYMONO]

Brawl is just as competitive as Melee, if you say otherwise, you're just being butthurt.

Is Brawl different? Yes. Less competitive? How so? Because you're forced to play more defensively and have a better shield-game? Cry me a river and then drown yourself in it.

With Brawl, you get more characters, the characters are better balanced than they were in Melee, and you've got a custom stage builder, allowing you make some great tourney stages.

 

[Firebert]

Hey, guys, c'mon. I know I havn't been here long, and such an opinion really merits little support, but really - what is it with everyone and his/her problem with tripping? The first thing everyone will blurt is that "It's unfair!" and "It destroys the 'competitiveness'". I mean, really - how unfair can it be, when it happens to EVERYONE at the same chance? If one character tripped ten times more than another - which would logically make sense, given the dexterity gap between bounty hunters and little kids - maybe there'd be a valid point, but when its a common hazard to all, I don't see how its unfair. Its just bad luck. Like, say you're playing competitively, and your hand cramps. Then what? It all boils down to the same thing - chance - so just roll with it.

That still doesn't make it a good addition to the competitive scene. That's like saying, "It's fair if too people get shot." What about what they were doing while they were getting shot? Would they both be able to recover from that position? Or what about their personal abilities to recover from these wounds? Wouldn't they have varying aptitudes to recover?

 

[Yuna]

Ummm... character-specific strategies =/= Advanced Techs. And Advanced Techs does not make the game more competitive. It's the options they provide that gives the game more depth and makes it more competitively viable.

 

[Rhubarbo]

No hitstun+High knockback=no combos

Also, you recover way to easily. It takes less skill to play Brawl. It will however still be competitive.

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

WHY IS EVERYONE SAYING THAT BRAWL IS MORE BALANCED? I just don't get it. I already see huge distinctions in the strengths of characters and I'm sure as the tournament scene develops these gaps will grow even bigger.

 

[LUCYMONO]

WHY IS EVERYONE SAYING THAT BRAWL IS MORE BALANCED? I just don't get it. I already see huge distinctions in the strengths of characters and I'm sure as the tournament scene develops these gaps will grow even bigger.

Because it is more balanced. Characters that were bad in Melee have been buffed some. Characters that were exceptionally strong in Melee have been nerfed some.

Of course there's still going to be some disparity. No fighting game is ever perfectly balanced.

 

[LeuMasT]

I've found Brawl to be quite competitive myself.

I do agree this isn't the lightning game melee was. That's not to say it's not as good, but it's nowhere near the same gameplay. I think what's frustrating people mostly is that it's not a reflex game anymore, that there's a lot more stand-off, projectile reliance, and interrupted movements.

I've found I like this system a lot more. Aerial combat feels more correct and being above your opponent is not so suicidal. Combat is less close, as instead of a ball of fists moving across the field, characters will oscillate much more towards and away each other. The game is very different, nothing plays quite like it.

Still, it's highly skill based. There is a clear trend among my dedicated companions for there to be a gap of separation in ability. There are many different characters and strategies for each that require their own honing to counter, and soon, general offensive ideas emerge from them on the best ways to make approaches for every character. Priority is still a huge deal, and knowing that and your own is absolutely critical. Proper shielding and dodging is as important as ever. It's easy to be a working player of brawl, but there is definitely a learning curve. Watch groups of people play the game, and you will see tendencies and trends that show a competitive streak is definitely there.