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Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?
- Thread starter Yuna
- Start date
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ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
He does.
He actually thinks of strategy.
No it isn't, it still sucks ***.
Same goes for melee. IN an FFA maybe it could be used, assuming the person was being held by someone else and FF was off and they were moronic enough to stay there while Ganondorf was charging up a warlock punch.
Wait...
Snake's Ftilt/Utilt.
DDD's CG
Falco's CG
Zamus CG
Pikachu's CG
Many other infinties/combos such as jab lock, laser lock.
*insert 100+ glitches*
Lack of Spike for sonic. Wait sorry that was my own personal one.
only because there are more characters.
The ratio however is worse than that in melee.
Snake vs everyone (except DK, pikachu, ROB)
MK vs (everyone except Snake and DK and possibly PIkachu)
G&W vs (everyone except maybe Snake and another)
Meanwhile in melee.
Marth had an advantage over Link and could still lose.
Don't believe me, search up Marth (ken) vs Link (aniki)
This will never ever happen in brawl.
The gap is just that big, and Marth is no longer top tier he's high tier at best!
So the gap should actually be smaller but,it's bigger.
in melee where Link has to work X times as hard to beat a Marth.
In Brawl he has to work 3x.
If you don't see the gap you are blind.
Let's forget his baiting ability, tilts, DAC.
Incredible mindgames.
No really his neutral A is his best feature.
Not the Ftilt or Utilt's ****ed up hitboxes.
Ftilt and Utilt beat it in terms of range and power.
Assuming that all he does is stand there and neutral A the entire match.
Which he won't.
Yes let's forget the Dsmash, his neutral A which setups directly into a Dsmash.
His many combos. The speed, range and priority of every attack.
Except Fox isn't.
Two explanations then, the snake player was not as skilled as the Fox.
Or Fox possibly has an overall neutral matchup with him.
Or Fox was just greater skilled.
Wait thats three. Sorry about that.
Except we already know that Falco has a possible inherent advantage over Snake.
So even if they are the same skill level the Falco will usually win.
This does nothing to show balance.
Balance is Aniki's Link beating Ken's Marth despite the inherent disadvantage. In that game you could make up for it.
In brawl however that inherent disadvantage cannot be made up for with sheer skill.
Matchups are just that more important.
You will NEVER see a Link win in a tournament with a Snake/MK/Marth also playing in the tournament.
in melee however a Link could still win if Marth/Fox/Falco/Sheik was in it (lesser so with Sheik since she was his hard counter)
I know I am wasting my time arguing but I am bored, have nothing to do etc etc.
I'm pretty much a nobody in this scene so this is all kind of at a glance view, take it as you will; but while Melee had its fair share of balance problems I think, Brawl certainly has its own.
To be honest, it seems like different versions of the same thing to me. You could conceivably use anyone in Melee tournaments, but I think it's looking at the situation through rose-tinted glasses to say that meant anyone could win and that's what separates it from Brawl. If that were the case then why have I seen the whole thing predominantly ruled by Marth, Sheik, Fox, Falco, with smidgens of Captain Falcon, Peach, and Ganondorf for all these years? There were others, and you did have some using a character like Bowser even but not without great difficulty because the aforementioned characters have certain advantages that are hard to get by.
My point isn't bashing Melee ...because I loved it, my point is that it doesn't seem all that different -in that regard- from Brawl. In Melee the game seemed to favor juggling ability and priority above other things and certain characters really benefitted from that, whereas here in Brawl the game favors defensive options like grabbing, all of Snake's bs, and Meta Knight's sheer attack speed and priority since the game has no hitstun to let certain other characters shine. It's been like that in almost every fighter ever save a few.
Granted this isn't a defense against some of Brawl's pretty admittedly big faults, like the ludicrous lack of hitstun which really messes up a lot of characters, and I don't care how it's rationalized the tripping thing is just plain stupid and unfair (kind of contradicts the mantra of this game being playable by anyone in any way they want that the official page said.) I'm just saying in perspective it doesn't seem too overwhelmingly different to me. Though I don't remember much in way of infinite grabs and the like in Melee so maybe Brawl is a little less balanced (though I've found Brawl a much funner experience as a game and in terms of its roster.) Also while the situation is similar like I said, I can see how some of the advantages of the top or high tiers are pretty eclipsing...only because characters like Ness and Captain Falcon don't have much to work with in comparison. Especially because of the lack of hitstun, those kinds of characters don't have much to fire back at Snake's sheer durability and "you hit me but you pay a price" tactics and the like.
Despite that though I still think this divide between the two groups of players is a little silly.
To be honest, it seems like different versions of the same thing to me. You could conceivably use anyone in Melee tournaments, but I think it's looking at the situation through rose-tinted glasses to say that meant anyone could win and that's what separates it from Brawl. If that were the case then why have I seen the whole thing predominantly ruled by Marth, Sheik, Fox, Falco, with smidgens of Captain Falcon, Peach, and Ganondorf for all these years? There were others, and you did have some using a character like Bowser even but not without great difficulty because the aforementioned characters have certain advantages that are hard to get by.
My point isn't bashing Melee ...because I loved it, my point is that it doesn't seem all that different -in that regard- from Brawl. In Melee the game seemed to favor juggling ability and priority above other things and certain characters really benefitted from that, whereas here in Brawl the game favors defensive options like grabbing, all of Snake's bs, and Meta Knight's sheer attack speed and priority since the game has no hitstun to let certain other characters shine. It's been like that in almost every fighter ever save a few.
Granted this isn't a defense against some of Brawl's pretty admittedly big faults, like the ludicrous lack of hitstun which really messes up a lot of characters, and I don't care how it's rationalized the tripping thing is just plain stupid and unfair (kind of contradicts the mantra of this game being playable by anyone in any way they want that the official page said.) I'm just saying in perspective it doesn't seem too overwhelmingly different to me. Though I don't remember much in way of infinite grabs and the like in Melee so maybe Brawl is a little less balanced (though I've found Brawl a much funner experience as a game and in terms of its roster.) Also while the situation is similar like I said, I can see how some of the advantages of the top or high tiers are pretty eclipsing...only because characters like Ness and Captain Falcon don't have much to work with in comparison. Especially because of the lack of hitstun, those kinds of characters don't have much to fire back at Snake's sheer durability and "you hit me but you pay a price" tactics and the like.
Despite that though I still think this divide between the two groups of players is a little silly.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
you could play brawl >.> or read a book. lol i just had to quote the last sentence
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
oh yeah that too how could i forget! XD maybe cause i haven't played it for a while, no one wants to play it with me anymore they all like brawl now >_>
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I sadly left my melee game at home in NY.
So I am somewhat depressed T_T
So I am somewhat depressed T_T
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
lol @ coreygames but i liked SSE..... >.>
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Well I don't mind SSE and the only dumb character was really Olimar, Lucas and ROB and SNake (Sonic was bound to appear due to Nintendo vs Sega thing so he actually should remain).
Wait a second I don't have to do that, I can just use my trainer.
Problem solved!
No more tripping (except when forced by Diddy's bananas)
Hitstun was incrased.
Snake's hitboxes were finally FIXED!
Wait, why don't we use a hacked version of the game competitively?
Its not impossible and its quite cheap.
Wait a second I don't have to do that, I can just use my trainer.
Problem solved!
No more tripping (except when forced by Diddy's bananas)
Hitstun was incrased.
Snake's hitboxes were finally FIXED!
Wait, why don't we use a hacked version of the game competitively?
Its not impossible and its quite cheap.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
but if it was brawl would be the most overpriced piece of **** since Naruto CoNR >_>
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
What corey said. We got mislead.
The fact that there will be no DLC for brawl utterly crushed any hope of rebalancing and fixing the game outside of different game versions
The fact that there will be no DLC for brawl utterly crushed any hope of rebalancing and fixing the game outside of different game versions
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
Nintendo doesn't believe in DLC.....
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
It is a possibility though, I believe GH4 is said to have it when it comes out. Not too sure about it.
Mr.Victory07
Smash Lord
It is coming with DLC. I think rock band is too, but in like a pysical version
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
meh maybe, but i don't play GH anyway so thats no help to me 
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
It may mean that if SSB4 came out (probably for the next system after the wii) it would have ana ctual possibility for DLC.
Provided we scream at Nintendo like no tomorrow.
Provided we scream at Nintendo like no tomorrow.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
lol maybe, but i guess we can hope and scream for it at the same time >.>
It'll depend on the system, I'm assuming an SSB4 would be for another one, unless the Wii gets some trippy add-on but downloadable content would go along really nicely with a game like this.
Or until we the player base become "ready" for online.
Or until we the player base become "ready" for online.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
you mean where its not 2 minutes spam Ike Fsmash? lol
i was assuming SSB4 would be on a new system too, but i wonder what other kinda add-on the Wii will get in the future....
Speedwobbles223
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2008
- Messages
- 197
Man this is a perfect game to update with balance patches. Needs it a little bit IMO, more buff's than nerfs.
Well I was actually referencing that bs statement Nintendo made some time ago explaining the Wii's lack of online options, but no matter how much better the online gets you'll always have that one character or weapon that a ton of people use but not too well. That's just always there.
I don't anyone much I use friendlist, but even then it's pretty limited. If I come across someone who's not on my list but they're pretty good the only thing I can really do is just request an add. I can't ask for an email, a web page, anything. And what if that piddly 64 limit is full? It's just a really silly system but I have a feeling it's not so much the games' fault as it is the limitations of the Wii itself.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
oh! Nintendo's statement about the Wii, sorry i misinterpreted it.
i do use friend list sometimes but most are gamefaqs people and i have bad connections to most of them. i do enjoy fighing this one guy who beats me all the time >.> although i am on anyone a bit too. i like team anyone better.
i do use friend list sometimes but most are gamefaqs people and i have bad connections to most of them. i do enjoy fighing this one guy who beats me all the time >.> although i am on anyone a bit too. i like team anyone better.
For the last time, this is inconsequential if the balance between characters is horrendously bad! So what if there are less useless moves now when there are more useless characters, at least when pitted against the top of the tops?
GH4 and Rock Band are not made by Nintendo, though. Nintendo themselves apparently do not believe in DLC for games they make themselves, but they obviously have no problems with other companies making DLC for their games.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
I lol'd, harded.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I speak in general that the Wii is capable of having DLC.
Not concerning the companies themselves specifically.
GH4 shows that the wii is capable of having DLC, it does not represent any sort of discussion concerning the policies of those companies.
metalmonstar
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 1,081
I posted this on Gamefaqs and decided to post it here also.
What is game balance anyway? Is it how many tournament viable characters there are? I don't really think that is what balance is, but I will indulge you all with some information I have found.
Ganondorf is the cutoff point for tournament viable in Melee after that you had to have great skill in order to overcome the weaknesses of your character. According to the tier list Ganondorf was ranked twelve. 12/26 is about 46%. That means 46% of the characters in Melee were tournament viable.
Depending on how one constructs their tier list Lucario-Lucas are the tournament viable cutoff. That is 20 to 23 tournament viable characters. 20/37 is roughly 54%. Now you tell me which is more balanced?
According to Phanna's matchup chart Fox only had two bad matchups Marth and Falco both of those were only 4-5. Fox still had a decent chance of beating them. Falco's only bad matchup was with Peach and again it was only a 4-5.
Sheik had three bad matchups, Fox, Falco, and Ice climbers. After that though she pretty much could **** the rest of the cast. Once you hit Link every matchup is a 5-3 or better.
Marth's only bad matchup was sheik. Yet again it was only a 4-5.
Mewtwo had no good matchups. Only with bottom tier did Mewtwo even go even with anyone.
Now there is speculation that Snake has several disadvantaged matchups with R.O.B., Pikachu, Olimar, and Falco.
Metaknight is speculated to have three bad matchups Snake, Marth, and DK. Metaknight is pretty much the Brawl Sheik.
Then we have Game and Watch who has even better matchups then MK. So far Game and watch only loses to Marth and Toon link.
How about the bottom? Captain falcon has two supposedly good matchups Squirtle and Ganondorf.
Jigglypuff has three good matchups supposedly also
The only character so far with no good matchups is Ganon yet his is normally ranked higher than both Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon. Some people even think he will move into low tier.
You see the similarity between the two games now? Sheik owns in Melee and Metaknight and Game and watch own in Brawl. However Game and watch isn't that popular. So far this summer Game and watch only makes up 3.9% of the top 8 in tournaments. Metaknight makes up the most with 14.8%. However Metaknights points per use are extremely low with only 4.4 points per metaknight. The highest point usage is Ness with over 14 points per use. Then is Pit with about 10, followed by Snake then Falco.
I figure that popularity plays a good part in Brawl as of now. I think down the road will may see less Metaknights and Snakes and more of the other top characters.
So which is more balanced? I don't see how you could say Melee is more balanced when provided with the accurate data.
But I think melee is more balanced, why? Because balance isn't about what character can win in a tournament. It is about equal number of options provided to all characters. Now granted each character can walk, dodge, dash, attack, smash, tilt, jump, aerial, airdodge and so on. There are certain things that each character cannot do.
Brawl is less balanced as of now because the ATs are now more character specific. Peach can float. Metaknight, Kirby, jigglypuff, Dededee, Pit, and charizard have more than two jumps. Metaknight, Pit, and Charizard can glide and glide attack. Olimar, Ivy, ZSS, Link, Toon link, Samus, and Lucas have tether recoveries. Certain characters can wall cling, some can wall jump, others can do both, and so can do neither. That is why I think Brawl is less balanced.
What is game balance anyway? Is it how many tournament viable characters there are? I don't really think that is what balance is, but I will indulge you all with some information I have found.
Ganondorf is the cutoff point for tournament viable in Melee after that you had to have great skill in order to overcome the weaknesses of your character. According to the tier list Ganondorf was ranked twelve. 12/26 is about 46%. That means 46% of the characters in Melee were tournament viable.
Depending on how one constructs their tier list Lucario-Lucas are the tournament viable cutoff. That is 20 to 23 tournament viable characters. 20/37 is roughly 54%. Now you tell me which is more balanced?
According to Phanna's matchup chart Fox only had two bad matchups Marth and Falco both of those were only 4-5. Fox still had a decent chance of beating them. Falco's only bad matchup was with Peach and again it was only a 4-5.
Sheik had three bad matchups, Fox, Falco, and Ice climbers. After that though she pretty much could **** the rest of the cast. Once you hit Link every matchup is a 5-3 or better.
Marth's only bad matchup was sheik. Yet again it was only a 4-5.
Mewtwo had no good matchups. Only with bottom tier did Mewtwo even go even with anyone.
Now there is speculation that Snake has several disadvantaged matchups with R.O.B., Pikachu, Olimar, and Falco.
Metaknight is speculated to have three bad matchups Snake, Marth, and DK. Metaknight is pretty much the Brawl Sheik.
Then we have Game and Watch who has even better matchups then MK. So far Game and watch only loses to Marth and Toon link.
How about the bottom? Captain falcon has two supposedly good matchups Squirtle and Ganondorf.
Jigglypuff has three good matchups supposedly also
The only character so far with no good matchups is Ganon yet his is normally ranked higher than both Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon. Some people even think he will move into low tier.
You see the similarity between the two games now? Sheik owns in Melee and Metaknight and Game and watch own in Brawl. However Game and watch isn't that popular. So far this summer Game and watch only makes up 3.9% of the top 8 in tournaments. Metaknight makes up the most with 14.8%. However Metaknights points per use are extremely low with only 4.4 points per metaknight. The highest point usage is Ness with over 14 points per use. Then is Pit with about 10, followed by Snake then Falco.
I figure that popularity plays a good part in Brawl as of now. I think down the road will may see less Metaknights and Snakes and more of the other top characters.
So which is more balanced? I don't see how you could say Melee is more balanced when provided with the accurate data.
But I think melee is more balanced, why? Because balance isn't about what character can win in a tournament. It is about equal number of options provided to all characters. Now granted each character can walk, dodge, dash, attack, smash, tilt, jump, aerial, airdodge and so on. There are certain things that each character cannot do.
Brawl is less balanced as of now because the ATs are now more character specific. Peach can float. Metaknight, Kirby, jigglypuff, Dededee, Pit, and charizard have more than two jumps. Metaknight, Pit, and Charizard can glide and glide attack. Olimar, Ivy, ZSS, Link, Toon link, Samus, and Lucas have tether recoveries. Certain characters can wall cling, some can wall jump, others can do both, and so can do neither. That is why I think Brawl is less balanced.
Good post, metalmonstar.
I don't think you even have to go so far as to include ATs, though. In Melee, everyone had combos, everyone could edgeguard, everyone could KO from a certain percent onwards and everyone could recover. Not so much in Brawl.
In Melee, if both characters had 100% and one stock left, it means that the match is close.
In Brawl, if both characters have 100% and one stock left... if one of them is Snake and the other is, say, Mario, Snake has the advantage by far because Mario has no good KO moves and Snake has extreme weight and can hardly be gimped, and a moveset almost solely consistent of KO moves. Mario will have to stack on at least another 50% to get even.
I don't think you even have to go so far as to include ATs, though. In Melee, everyone had combos, everyone could edgeguard, everyone could KO from a certain percent onwards and everyone could recover. Not so much in Brawl.
In Melee, if both characters had 100% and one stock left, it means that the match is close.
In Brawl, if both characters have 100% and one stock left... if one of them is Snake and the other is, say, Mario, Snake has the advantage by far because Mario has no good KO moves and Snake has extreme weight and can hardly be gimped, and a moveset almost solely consistent of KO moves. Mario will have to stack on at least another 50% to get even.
ftl
Smash Journeyman
Just a note - I think the fact that different characters have different techniques is NOT a point against balance. Sure - some characters can glide attack. Others have other advantages. DK can cargo. Snake has a moveset, with his mines, grenades, and delayed upsmash, which is so completely different than any other character. Some characters are one-trick ponies, with a single powerful strategy. Others have lots of options and win by versatility. That's not a bad thing. It certainly makes the game HARDER to balance - it's very difficult to make characters with such different movesets play nearly even with each other - but is not inherently an anti-balance thing. I don't think 'every character having the same options' is required; the goal is for a good number of characters to all have roughly equally good options, even if some have more and some have fewer.
Revolutionary1804
Smash Apprentice
Brawl is much more balanced when taken in a professional player p.o.v. In brawl, any character can beat the other even though its a more difficult matchup for let's say a C.Falcon versus an MK. However, while there are some god tier characters in this game, in Melee, you picked a high tier= you placed high. in Brawl, skill is much more a factor, nots aying that Melee didnt have tech skillz but realistically, once u got the techs down they werent hard at all to reproduce. Every Brawl match is a different match as opposed to Melee where repetition was all around. The fact that brawl took out combos makes it for a fairer game. Longer combos= more unfairness since during that time u cant touch or do anything. (will post more later... hungry)
Samochan
Smash Master
Do not fret, we will lift you from your pit of scrubbyness if you let us.
Not to be taken personally.
Revolutionary1804
Smash Apprentice
i bawl in both brawl and melee u can bet that. name me a place and time and u can get beat in both, trust. but when u get a combo down pact in melee its not hard to repeat the same actions. A->b->C in melee. in brawl its more like A->...C and maybe a b depending on the actions your opponent takes. u cant just connect buttons and know ur going to kill ur opponent. Melee is a much better game to watch because the combos to some are new and obviously look cooler then a game with no combos (many pro players will admit to winning matches from just getting the first grab); you can't say the same for Brawl.
Brawl is just rock-paper-scissors over and over. Sure, it heavily tests your ability to react/predict... but not much else. And clearly, the characters with attacks that allow their players to require fewer RPS situations to win (Snake, Dedede) or give a much easier window to react (Meta Knight) will come out on top.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
You could DI and escape combo's in Melee, most anyway. and in Melee Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth had counters and some low tier could hold their own against them. in Brawl Snake, MK, and G&W own like everyone else except themselves and some characters like Link stand little to no chance against any of them. Also where in melee do you see repetition? not everyone WD around the stage forever cause some people had really poor WD movement.
Samochan
Smash Master
Funny how you got all defensive when I didn't address your skill level at all.
I only addressed how you're limiting yourself by trying to play honorably on a video game and deeming things cheap. It's a scrub attitude and while it doesn't refer to the skill level, it does actually tie with it, since in order to get good the scurb needs to stop limiting themselves.I'd also love to get to your place and use you as my peach dsmash spam sandbag since you seemingly like being one according to your sig, but sadly I don't live on US and I do not own any console. :/ Good thing peach doesn't have much comboes, but consecutive hits, so people can't john about comboes expect when they cc a dsmash.
It's all about mindgames, son. On brawl I can go by reactions alone unless it's wifi lolz. I'd like to know what it means to bawl on smash though. <_>And no, you cannot win a match by pressing a grab button once, not even with sheik even if that includes that one grab being a chaingrab on bowser.
DivineBlade
Smash Apprentice
I personally favor Melee over Brawl because of the fast paced battles and some speedy recovery.
Revolutionary1804
Smash Apprentice
ok its is really all about mindgames son. but that's the actual player not the game so it doesent matter.
yes u can win from jsut one grab. 0->Death comboes really aren't that rare in Melee.
Boxob
Smash Champion
Lol @ the tags for this thread. No bomb shelter, though? :/ I'll add it.
This is a dumb debate, if anyone honestly believes Brawl is a more balanced, competitively superior game to Melee, they are/have either:
A) Never played Melee at all or at a competitive standard.
B) Have a mental illness and/or other cognitive problems.
C) Believes in 'Tiers are for queers' (Refer to option B)
This is a dumb debate, if anyone honestly believes Brawl is a more balanced, competitively superior game to Melee, they are/have either:
A) Never played Melee at all or at a competitive standard.
B) Have a mental illness and/or other cognitive problems.
C) Believes in 'Tiers are for queers' (Refer to option B)
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