BrawlLover
Smash Champion
wow they sure are! you must be the best captain falcon right now!
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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Scar
#HarveyDent
Fixed and now it's true. I'll be the best once I surpass Darkrain and eventually M2K.
Haha, quick note: I did not name that Cactus dashing. I just abuse it so much that people started calling it that...
(I'll answer some questions later on, I'm really tired...
)
(I'll answer some questions later on, I'm really tired...
)
hehe i cactus dash as an inbetween stock all the way to the edge...not technical but it just looks funny
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
I need to ask another question...How do you usually approach and kill Samus, Cactuar?
Imagine if it were a huge stage like FD or DL64...
The "F-Throw and spam aerials" thing didn't help me out in a recent tourney because...erm, I got *****. :/ ...
Imagine if it were a huge stage like FD or DL64...
The "F-Throw and spam aerials" thing didn't help me out in a recent tourney because...erm, I got *****. :/ ...
Mew2King
King of the Mews
Vs. Samus, just do Marth's Fair well. I've jv 5 stocked 3 different Samus's w/out gimps back in 2007, I think Marth ***** Samus really badly. What can she do, lol? CC down smash? That won't hit a good Fairing Marth. Be good with Fair, and Bair edge guard between Bomb recovery. That's all you really need.
Declan
Smash Apprentice
But what about missiles? I'm j/p. I agree with M2K. You just have to watch your spacing. You can get punished if you miss with a more lag heavy move like Fsmash. Keeping samus above you can be helpful too. Keeping anyone above you can be helpful for that matter.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
if she missiles, just wait for her and jump over them repeatedly (really easy). It's a waiting game, if you really wanna **** samus that is. I know from experience, I've played Triad like 100 times in that match and he missile spams and I found just waiting is the best thing to do. You should only get hit like one time per stock if you play right.
Sans Glutin
Smash Ace
I have trouble doing SH Double F-airs using the C-stick. I can do it fine with the control stick + A, but I have to SH and mash the C-stick forward as fast as I can to even get the second one to come out at all, and even then I land before it comes out very much. Is there any trick to it?
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
^I can do it consistently to the left using only Y+c-stick (semi consistently to the right, tho 
)
What I do is to only hit the c-stick with the middle part of my thumb so I wont have to move my thumb as much
)What I do is to only hit the c-stick with the middle part of my thumb so I wont have to move my thumb as much
IrArby
Smash Ace
Retreating SHDF I pretty much exclusively use the Control stick to jump leaving my right hand free to Cstick Double Fair. Its very difficult to do this advancing forward from a run but realistically, its not neccesary (IMO) to Cstick the first fair anyway since your already going forward and the control stick stays pointing more or less forward. I'm by no means an amazing Marth though so . . .
Then again, I'm pretty sure Cactaur still uses the X to jump and double Csticks and his retreating SHDFs go back really ****ing far so if you're willing to put the time in I think thats the best method.
Then again, I'm pretty sure Cactaur still uses the X to jump and double Csticks and his retreating SHDFs go back really ****ing far so if you're willing to put the time in I think thats the best method.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
man, mew2king makes me want to play melee or something!
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
It's all about muscle repetition (ie practice). Once your body gets used to doing the motion it becomes easier to the point where you can manipulate even the slightest difference of the actual motion.
In my experience, if Marth is facing to the left it's really easy to sh with X and c-stick both fairs regardless of if your retreating or approaching. Facing to the right is where I had to really practice to get comfortable using the c-stick to do double fairs. I think I use my palm to hit the c-stick for the first fair lol.
For the Samus question. This is a matchup where you can really tell if your spaced well or not. SH fair to dtilt and spam aerials once she is in the air. There is no way you can lose. If you find you miss-spaced and you see her already crouching dair can work too. But, basically if you space well, fair > Samus.
As for Cactus Dashing, well I made that up during the post, if other people have said it too that just means it's confirmed that from now on that should be called Cactus Dashing.
I typed this up earlier before swf went down...
You have gotta try some philly cheesesteaks when you get here.
If you want me to elaborate on anything, feel free to ask more specific questions.
When I waveshield, I start from holding shield all the way down to the button in the L trigger, but not actually pressing it, and just press Y and the button for the wavedash sequence. I very rarely press that actual button while shielding. I use Y and L for everything. I actually took out my X button and the lightshield function of my R button.
Yeah pretty much. Experience = everything in smash.
Of course I am.
You have gotta try some philly cheesesteaks when you get here.
It really depends on the samus style. Super spammy players, I just walk forward and tilt through their missiles until I am about 1 1/2 sword lengths away from them, and then start a pressure game on their spacing. This mostly involves very well spaced tipper fairs so that they can't CC dsmash or whatever to punish you. VS Hugs style samus (heavy ground game, very rarely go aerial) I will start using a lot of dtilt reacting to wavedashes, then dash backwards from the dtilt and pivot fair or empty jump to waveland. This frustrates even the most patient players, eventually giving me grab opportunities. When you fthrow/uthrow Samus, I don't really mean spam aerials. You have to get under her, slightly to the left or right. Uair does wonders, as does nair. I use center hit fairs to push if I'm near the middle of the stage, uairs at the lower percents after a fair to give them extended hit stun and pop them up closer to me. Samus is too floaty for uairs to do much at mid percents, so I'll tend to do shfairuair land nair to push them across a stage. If they are near the edge, just sh fair land fsmash and push them off. Abuse Marth's incredible ledgeguarding ability. I don't usually go off stage to gimp Samus unless their recovery is on a low horizontal path, but my on stage prevention of players getting back on from holding the ledge is much much better than most. Fighting samus is really just about getting her to the side. Don't worry about her recovering forever, as it just gives you more opportunities to rack up damage on them while they are in a very vulnerable position. Eventually, you are gonna land a tipper dtilt or something stupid on them while they are off stage and they will have that low horizontal recovery problem, so you can just edgehog and do off stage abuse to them. Is that a little more descriptive?
If you want me to elaborate on anything, feel free to ask more specific questions.
I.B
Smash Lord
I had to quote the Eminem line. Just had to.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Hey Cactuar, I got a question: What's the best way to approach a Falcon who likes to use lots of n-airs and knees. I normally try to mind-game a grab or SH(D)Fair/N-air to a grab, but unfortunately that doesn't always work.
Thanks in advance!
Thanks in advance!
If they just spam nair and knee, you could just stand there and utilt.
No really though, I find myself hitting spammy Falcons with a lot of random dash attacks, which leads into Marth killing Falcon given the proper followups. Fair beats out knee easily, but I don't really try to trade with nair. Just wait for them to land and hit them with something (grab, smash, tilt even...).
No really though, I find myself hitting spammy Falcons with a lot of random dash attacks, which leads into Marth killing Falcon given the proper followups. Fair beats out knee easily, but I don't really try to trade with nair. Just wait for them to land and hit them with something (grab, smash, tilt even...).
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
wow, i've never read something of this magnitude! perhaps getting back into melee is a good idea!
Declan
Smash Apprentice
Really? Not even like...in a book or something? lol. You should definitely get back into melee. It needs to be kept alive.
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
Wow I read through this whole thread. Helped a ****load, especially your recent Samus advice. HugQ plays exactly like HugS, but I see I've been playing too impatiently. Few Q's:
How do you DI out of Sheik's dthrow at low percentages so you don't get chain grabbed? I know there's a way, I've heard it mentioned before. I believe it is this same DI that you use to make it necessary for Sheik to have nearly frame-perfect timing to follow up with a fair at higher percents. I've been trying to DI up and away and then adjusting my DI down and away when I reach the maximum height and spamming fair in the process, but I have a very low success rate. Inform me.
Do you utilize dash dropping or Isai dropping in any way, or do you just make it a point to stay off the platforms? I learned how to do both the other day but I'm struggling to find a viable use for them outside of when you're inadvertently on a platform and want to fall through and do a falling uair to protect yourself.
When you uthrow a Sheik at the percentages you mentioned earlier in the thread, 10 to low 20s, is the utilt guaranteed or can they jump out? I swear they jump out fairly often, but M2K hits KDJ with the utilt almost all the time. I suspect my timing is lacking.
I've been using ftilt a lot recently and it's amazing. Why don't more Marths use it? Oh, and why do you ftilt rather than fsmash when you chain grab space animals and they DI away?
To Cort, you linked to a Marth v Fox strategy post you made, but this part confused me, specifically the bolded:
Vs Foxes I often CC grab their nair/shine at low percents and **** them following the grab. I assume that wouldn't work vs technical Foxes who jump out of their shine really quickly so I don't normally attempt it when playing the most technical Fox in the area. Am I wrong? I remember trying it every now and then with less than 100% success, so I'm unsure if I was just not confident enough in it and doing it wrong, or if I'm passing up free grabs.
Back to Cactuar (or Cort too, lmao): What is your strategy to get Falco past the 20-30% mark? I find fb pretty useful for it (straight up stole it from Ken), when they're coming down in the air about to land or when they're approaching me from the ground and I can pull out a pivot forward-b. Are there better things to do I should keep in mind? Or is it just a stylistic choice and since it works well for me, I should keep doing it. (I also do it against Fox but most of the time there are better things to do / opportunities to grab.)
My Marth sucks against Falcon. In fact, I suck against Falcon, period. The biggest trouble I have is approaching. It's just insanely difficult, and I often get hit by Falcon's random flying nairs and knees. Right now my strategy is to stay on the ground and wavedash around interrupting his spacing with jabs / down tilts / fairs while I look for grab openings. Are my basics right, at least?
OH ****, I FORGOT THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION:
How in the world do you DI Fox's downsmash?
How do you DI out of Sheik's dthrow at low percentages so you don't get chain grabbed? I know there's a way, I've heard it mentioned before. I believe it is this same DI that you use to make it necessary for Sheik to have nearly frame-perfect timing to follow up with a fair at higher percents. I've been trying to DI up and away and then adjusting my DI down and away when I reach the maximum height and spamming fair in the process, but I have a very low success rate. Inform me.
Do you utilize dash dropping or Isai dropping in any way, or do you just make it a point to stay off the platforms? I learned how to do both the other day but I'm struggling to find a viable use for them outside of when you're inadvertently on a platform and want to fall through and do a falling uair to protect yourself.
When you uthrow a Sheik at the percentages you mentioned earlier in the thread, 10 to low 20s, is the utilt guaranteed or can they jump out? I swear they jump out fairly often, but M2K hits KDJ with the utilt almost all the time. I suspect my timing is lacking.
I've been using ftilt a lot recently and it's amazing. Why don't more Marths use it? Oh, and why do you ftilt rather than fsmash when you chain grab space animals and they DI away?
To Cort, you linked to a Marth v Fox strategy post you made, but this part confused me, specifically the bolded:
What exactly do you mean? Holding down while actually using fb (which confuses me), or doing the down version of his forward b (i.e. hitting with the meteor on the third hit, which has more knockback and baits a shield grab)? What does that have to do with a free CC grab?
Vs Foxes I often CC grab their nair/shine at low percents and **** them following the grab. I assume that wouldn't work vs technical Foxes who jump out of their shine really quickly so I don't normally attempt it when playing the most technical Fox in the area. Am I wrong? I remember trying it every now and then with less than 100% success, so I'm unsure if I was just not confident enough in it and doing it wrong, or if I'm passing up free grabs.
Back to Cactuar (or Cort too, lmao): What is your strategy to get Falco past the 20-30% mark? I find fb pretty useful for it (straight up stole it from Ken), when they're coming down in the air about to land or when they're approaching me from the ground and I can pull out a pivot forward-b. Are there better things to do I should keep in mind? Or is it just a stylistic choice and since it works well for me, I should keep doing it. (I also do it against Fox but most of the time there are better things to do / opportunities to grab.)
My Marth sucks against Falcon. In fact, I suck against Falcon, period. The biggest trouble I have is approaching. It's just insanely difficult, and I often get hit by Falcon's random flying nairs and knees. Right now my strategy is to stay on the ground and wavedash around interrupting his spacing with jabs / down tilts / fairs while I look for grab openings. Are my basics right, at least?
OH ****, I FORGOT THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION:
How in the world do you DI Fox's downsmash?
Aesir
Smash Master
You just DIe
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
For the Sheik CG, if sheik is dthrowing while facing to the right you DI up and behind Sheik. Basically right behind Sheik's head. So it's DI up and slight DI left, not max DI left. This can get you upsmashed but the CG is impossible. I also believe you can jump out before the upsmash can hit at some %. So the DI is actually up and towards Sheik not away. Although I think after 40% or so you can DI behind or in front and still avoid the grab.
For the Sheik upthrow/uptilt thing, pretty sure they can jump out. But that's usually worse because Sheik loses her second jump and it leads to easy combos (if they airdodge you just regrab and throw them up again). Cactuar/M2k probably knows more about the % that Sheik can actually jump out though. I just always assumed this was the case.
Cort means that while doing the dancing blade he CCs too (thus the hold forward and down). Basically if his opponent tries to interrupt it with a jab or nair or something like that he just CC grabs it right after. He doesn't mash A while doing the dancing blade, he does it once he thinks they are going to hit him (along with L or R).
CC grabs on Fox work depending on when they hit you with the nair. Like if you dash forward to CC and they shffl a nair high on top of you, you can normally grab that. If they already reached the apex of their jump and can fastfall then if they are good you can't grab them. Also at mid % this can work better because when you CC it actually pushes you out of range of the shine. <- Pro tip.
For the Sheik upthrow/uptilt thing, pretty sure they can jump out. But that's usually worse because Sheik loses her second jump and it leads to easy combos (if they airdodge you just regrab and throw them up again). Cactuar/M2k probably knows more about the % that Sheik can actually jump out though. I just always assumed this was the case.
Cort means that while doing the dancing blade he CCs too (thus the hold forward and down). Basically if his opponent tries to interrupt it with a jab or nair or something like that he just CC grabs it right after. He doesn't mash A while doing the dancing blade, he does it once he thinks they are going to hit him (along with L or R).
CC grabs on Fox work depending on when they hit you with the nair. Like if you dash forward to CC and they shffl a nair high on top of you, you can normally grab that. If they already reached the apex of their jump and can fastfall then if they are good you can't grab them. Also at mid % this can work better because when you CC it actually pushes you out of range of the shine. <- Pro tip.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
looooooooooooooooooooooooooooools
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Thanks, Cactuar.If they just spam nair and knee, you could just stand there and utilt.
No really though, I find myself hitting spammy Falcons with a lot of random dash attacks, which leads into Marth killing Falcon given the proper followups. Fair beats out knee easily, but I don't really try to trade with nair. Just wait for them to land and hit them with something (grab, smash, tilt even...).
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
Yeah, I don't want to get usmashed. I'm pretty sure there's a way to DI so you don't get chainthrown or usmashed.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
getting upsmash stinkS!
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
Jab is three frames faster in ending and a frame faster in coming out.
It's got more range, too, I think, and probably works to higher percents, depending on sweetspots.
It's got more range, too, I think, and probably works to higher percents, depending on sweetspots.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
seeing how side b doesn't reset i think jab is better
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
what do you mean by resetting? like resetting the game?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
forced wakeup is a cool trick that can be caused by hitting your opponent with a move that very lightly taps them when they're knocked over and forces them into a recovery action.
generally, when people are lying on the ground immobile they don't hold anything so they get "reset" into the standard recovery get-up. hence the idea behind "jab reset", or "reset".
however, this doesn't work against most characters consistently. aside from the easiest option (hold left, right, or A when you fall over so you produce a different recovery) a lot of characters can simply hold up and recover standing (iirc) after about 50ish. so it doesn't work. the only characters it's really useful against is the fast fallers because their jab-resetable percentages tend to go higher.
i just made a word.
also worth noting is that the move doesn't have to be a jab necessarily. it's possible with a bunch of moves but they have to be weak moves. marth's non-tipped d-tilt is too strong, for instance.
i also read somewhere (by magus iirc) that at some percentages characters can be forced into standard get-up animation by the reset if the move is weak enough.
generally, when people are lying on the ground immobile they don't hold anything so they get "reset" into the standard recovery get-up. hence the idea behind "jab reset", or "reset".
however, this doesn't work against most characters consistently. aside from the easiest option (hold left, right, or A when you fall over so you produce a different recovery) a lot of characters can simply hold up and recover standing (iirc) after about 50ish. so it doesn't work. the only characters it's really useful against is the fast fallers because their jab-resetable percentages tend to go higher.
i just made a word.
also worth noting is that the move doesn't have to be a jab necessarily. it's possible with a bunch of moves but they have to be weak moves. marth's non-tipped d-tilt is too strong, for instance.
i also read somewhere (by magus iirc) that at some percentages characters can be forced into standard get-up animation by the reset if the move is weak enough.
MarsFool!
Smash Lord
Side B resets, But its easier to escape.
But I agree Jab for the win, as well as better hitboxes, hits from the ground up so you make the contact your aiming for as well you have invincible feet for it. So yeah, jab for president.
Its not the thunders combo is it? or is it at a gimp %
well thunders apparently you can imput how you want to get-up its just mad fast
i'm lost. i know you can tech-stand or tech-roll as soon as you hit the ground by hitting L/R. and you can wait until after you bounce and land then roll to your feet or do an attack as you get up or just stand up. but none of those is particularly fast (though teching starts your recovery much sooner), teching requires timing, not speed and the others you can do at whatever speed and time you want. am i right to think that resetting can only be preformed after a non-teched landing? and if so, is resetting done during the bounce or after they're laying on the ground? i know i sometimes tack on an attack during the bounce animation if people don't tech, is that considered resetting? if it's done after the bounce then it won't be very useful on higher level players because they won't give you the chance to do it more than once or twice before they catch on.
after they are laying on the ground...watch SW do it at :10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxcy6vcWXKI
edit: before i take **** for it i know this is a marth thread but im just showing an example.
edit: before i take **** for it i know this is a marth thread but im just showing an example.
oh. i'd consider that during the bounce animation. but it's hard to tell.
edit: i looked at it again, it's during the bounce. and i've found that using dancing blade in that situation is almost completely useless because it gives too little lag.
edit: i looked at it again, it's during the bounce. and i've found that using dancing blade in that situation is almost completely useless because it gives too little lag.
well hahahhahahah SW is too **** fast...you can do it either.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I always thought Marth's Side B pops them into the air.
For the one I mentioned earlier about the reset at low % without roll or get-up attack or anything I think the condition is that they can't bounce (they have to be too low % to bounce from the attack that knocked them over and from the reset) but I really know. Ask Magus or Mew2King or Cactuar or something they probably know.