Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[puckgood]

Don't fight level 9's: lvl. 3's are the best, IMO. Work on tech skills, and moving smoothely around (wavedashing and dancing, pivoting and being able to wavedash out of dash fluently). When all else fails and your tech skill is perfect, pick up a really technical character like a spacey. I reccomend Falco, since he operates much differently than Marth and helps to mix it up.

 

[bolt.]

Alright I will try that, thanks!

 

[Grmo]

What's a good method for shield pressuring? I often try spacing aerials and d tilts and stuff, and grabbing in between if I see an opening, but it often doesn't work at all (especially since that stuff can be crouch canceled at low percents). Basically, I'm either doing the right thing very badly or not doing it right at all. I still need a lot of work on my spacing (of course), but do you have any tips anyway?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

What's a good method for shield pressuring? I often try spacing aerials and d tilts and stuff, and grabbing in between if I see an opening, but it often doesn't work at all (especially since that stuff can be crouch canceled at low percents). Basically, I'm either doing the right thing very badly or not doing it right at all. I still need a lot of work on my spacing (of course), but do you have any tips anyway?

You have to know what you're trying to achieve by pressuring a shield with Marth. You can't effectively use it to actually wear the shield downs significantly as with Falco. What you're trying to do is force the opponent into making a bad decision and then punishing him. If you're good enough at this you can make your opponent feel trapped in his shield, which again pressures him to commit to something that's easily punished because he's nervous.

Also, since you're not a spacie, you NEED TO TIP EVERYTHING. Not only does this put you out of range of a shieldgrab (even in dittos), the tip of Marth's sword also causes more shieldstun and probably more shield damage, though I'm not all too sure about the latter.

Dtilt is really safe. IASA frames are absolutely amazing, so if you just want to wear their shield down a little and be safe, just dtilt. A VERY simple trick is just dtilting repeatedly using IASA frames. Either you shieldstab and you can tech chase, or they roll/spotdodge and you can grab them. Shieldgrab doesn't work if you spaced it right. The only really safe options they have are wavedashing BACKWARDS OOS (I'm pretty sure you can grab them before they can do **** to you if they go towards you) or jumping away. If they WD away, just stay close, camp in their face, and pressure them. If they jump, uair and utilt **** them.

A lot of the time, doing nothing and reacting works wonders. Essentially, you have the same options as out of dtilt except you're not actually doing a dtilt. Watch out for aerials out of shield against characters with good range like vs. another Marth, so you might want to crouch. You still have the same options plus the benefits of broken CC grabs.

Being proficient at pivots helps a lot. If you're close to their shield and want to move into a safer position, you can dash away and empty pivot to space yourself correctly, or if you want to be fancy and slightly more aggressive you can pivot an ftilt on their shield. Again, correct spacing is crucial. You can also just run through their shield and pivot grab, or if you're standing at the normal shield pressure range, run through and FLT grab. Also, running through people and just doing an empty FLT pivot (so basically FLT grab but w/o the grab) is amazing because they can't do **** to you. Lots of people jump to avoid FLT grabs, and if you don't actually grab, you can chase them with uairs and **** them.

If you have frame perfect timing, I think you can auto cancel nair and dash dance away and grab, though I wouldn't recommend that unless you're super good at that and believe they won't be able to shieldgrab you. Another simple way of getting behind their shield is to shffl an uair behind them so that it tips and then spacing yourself right simply by walking or turning around. Cactuar does this quite a lot in dittos.

I probably forgot some stuff, but there's some possibilites you have.

 

[Grmo]

Excellent, thanks. That helps a lot

 

[Cosmo!]

You can also just run through their shield and pivot grab, or if you're standing at the normal shield pressure range, run through and FLT grab.

lol why would you do either of these when you could grab them on the first pass.

every time you run through somebody's shield and do a pivot grab / fsmash you could have grabbed them. every time

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Except your grab gets spotdodged and *****.

Whereas if you run through them there's nothing they can do to you except for characters like C. Falcon that have a large grab hitbox behind them. Of course that's an exaggeration, but it's def useful to switch things up.

 

[Cosmo!]

i remember trying ur strat there vs RockCrock and he would shieldgrab me every time I tried to run thru him

not saying its not useful but... all strats may be beaten

 

[Cactuar]

1. Your timing is probably not as good as mine. It works when you late fair or uair on top of someones shield. M2K and I tested it back in the day.
2. Your statement about being able to grab them is false. The point of running through them is to get behind them before their grab hitbox comes out, as they have the frame advantage and will be able to start a grab before you. Marth can dash RIDICULOUSLY far in a few frames.
3. Was RockCrock Ganon?

Also, calling any sort of pivoting FLT grabbing or pivoting is silly. I also don't do the uairs on the back of their shield. I do it on the front and really late so that they have massive shield stun, letting me run through them easier than doing a fair, and baiting them into shield grabbing and failing.

 

[soap]

1. Your timing is probably not as good as mine. It works when you late fair or uair on top of someones shield. M2K and I tested it back in the day.
2. Your statement about being able to grab them is false. The point of running through them is to get behind them before their grab hitbox comes out, as they have the frame advantage and will be able to start a grab before you. Marth can dash RIDICULOUSLY far in a few frames.
3. Was RockCrock Ganon?

Also, calling any sort of pivoting FLT grabbing or pivoting is silly. I also don't do the uairs on the back of their shield. I do it on the front and really late so that they have massive shield stun, letting me run through them easier than doing a fair, and baiting them into shield grabbing and failing.

i dont have a problem doing the run through with marths fair/uair consistently.

does this tactic work with other characters? I can get late knee run through sometimes

and could u like late fox nair dash through without even shining?

but im mostly trying to figure out what to use with sheik, ive been trying late bair, like the front of it, but i dont think it has enough shieldstun and her dash is not as good as marths.

did u guys test other characters n stuff back in the dizay?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

would late fair work?

 

[soap]

would late fair work?

late fair doesnt really work inside them cuz it starts high and hits the shield too high all the time. U can space it normally at the tip and be safe like usual, but i want a dash through aerial.

iono it might actually work i dont have anybody with reliable shieldgrab timing to test with right now.

 

[Cosmo!]

ok it seems everybody is talking about different things

im talking about when they are sitting in their shield and i'm standing in front of them (no shield stun) while other ppl are talking about hitting them with fair then dashing thru?

 

[soap]

well if they have good timing i dont see why they couldnt grab u without shieldstun

 

[Cosmo!]

well if they have good timing i dont see why they couldnt grab u without shieldstun

ya that's my point

 

[Prince Of Fire]

Match ups:

Where to take-

Falco
Sheik
Samus
Captain Falcon

 

[Brookman]

why would you try to run through someone's shield with sheik when you can space away from their grab range just enough to still bait a grab and be safe.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Also, calling any sort of pivoting FLT grabbing or pivoting is silly. I also don't do the uairs on the back of their shield. I do it on the front and really late so that they have massive shield stun, letting me run through them easier than doing a fair, and baiting them into shield grabbing and failing.

I am aware of this. However, I was referring to crouching after entering the full run, then pivot grabbing. I don't think any decent name other than Fastliketree grab has been given to this yet, if there has, please enlighten me. In retrospect that's not a very good idea though, as you're far enough that it's relatively easy to simply shieldgrab this. Only good if they like to spotdodge when you run towards them, although there's easier ways to punish that, lol.

Unfortunately my brain is wired so that it looks for complex solutions first, even if there's something really simple. I complicate things like this all the time.

Thanks for correcting me on the uairs though.

 

[soap]

why would you try to run through someone's shield with sheik when you can space away from their grab range just enough to still bait a grab and be safe.

same reason u do it with marth
if they ran into your range with a shield and messed up your spacing for whatever reason its good to have more options.

 

[Tero.]

Match ups:

Where to take-

Falco - FD (YS/FoD)
Sheik - Fox
Samus - YS, BF
Captain Falcon - FoD

there you go

 

[Aesir]

Honestly unless you know the match up taking sheik anywhere is bad.

 

[Prince Of Fire]

<3 Aesir.

Yeah, Sheiks just overall......gay. I kind of like fighting her on FD because I find its easiest to combo her and gimp her there. When she recovers I usually just edge hog so she is forced to use her upB on the stage. When she uses the upB to get back up I ledge hop or roll up and fsmash her off and rinse and repeat till she dies. With stages like BF, YS, and FOD she can get above you and she has more options.

Oh and I don't play Fox....everyone uses Fox and I'm not exactly a fan of run around, nairing, and hitting down B.

 

[Tero.]

FD and DL are like the worst neutrals against sheik.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

how do you beat a fox that likes to overshoot their attacks to interrupt your dashdancing?

such as this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOOEtEsWlxY&feature=related

 

[Aesir]

how do you beat a fox that likes to overshoot their attacks to interrupt your dashdancing?

such as this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOOEtEsWlxY&feature=related

Stop trying to hit him and hit him lol.

 

[halcyon.days]

When you grab a Fox at ~100%, what should you do? I just do uthrow -> fair/nair but there has to be other options...

 

[Aesir]

When you grab a Fox at ~100%, what should you do? I just do uthrow -> fair/nair but there has to be other options...

Depends where you are on the stage.

Middle? uthrow to nair works I guess, but not really they can jump out of it. If you're near the edge down throw and edge guard.

 

[Brookman]

how do you beat a fox that likes to overshoot their attacks to interrupt your dashdancing?

such as this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOOEtEsWlxY&feature=related

he's not simply 'overshooting' his attacks, you just move a little predictably for him ( what marth doesn't dash dance just like you?). guard your retreat with bair if you can react to his advance. Also, stop trying to fall onto him with down airs, it's just not working for you.

 

[KosukeKGA]

When you grab a Fox at ~100%, what should you do? I just do uthrow -> fair/nair but there has to be other options...

D-Throw, B-Throw, or F-Throw and tech chase with F-Smash...

 

[KevinM]

Stickying this finally.

 

[puckgood]

Yay for sticky!!!!! And a question. I've asked this before, but how do you practice your ledge techs? THe mine thing doesn't work for me.... do you have to anticipate the fact that they're gonna hit you and hit L very early (middle of up b) or what?

 

[Cosmo!]

every single time you ever press upB to recover, hit R/L on the way up (middle of upB), every time, even if nobody is there. It's good to get you in the mindset. then smash DI towards the stage and you're set.

 

[Prince Of Fire]

When you grab a Fox at ~100%, what should you do? I just do uthrow -> fair/nair but there has to be other options...

There are two options that I personally, like to use here.

1-U throw to non tippered uair to fsmash usually works from about 85-110% respectively. You can tipper it I think around 90 something....but I forgot the percent exactly.

2-u throw to nair (The problem with this is do try not to use it ALL the time because if they DI it correctly 9 times out of 10 the Fox will be trying to recover from above the stage as opposed to below or leveled with it so it's much more difficult to edge guard them.

I find that its much easier to edge guard the space animals when they are leveled or below the stage because if its a fox, he could easily just fire fox to the opposite side of YS, DL, or BF and completley disrupt your edge game.

 

[halcyon.days]

Could someone clear something up for me about Fox/Falco's Up B?

Only Fox's upB actually hurts you when he's "starting" it up (ie. when he's stationary in the air with the fire around him). Falco's doesn't, right?

 

[Cort]

Right .

 

[halcyon.days]

Right .

Have anymore nifty tips for Marth? I've already seen your gimp trick (or M2K's, rather) with Fox and dthrow near the edge as well as baiting them while using ledge invincibility. They were both super useful.

 

[ArcNatural]

Could someone clear something up for me about Fox/Falco's Up B?

Only Fox's upB actually hurts you when he's "starting" it up (ie. when he's stationary in the air with the fire around him). Falco's doesn't, right?

This actually isn't entirely true. Fox's Firefox doesn't actually start to hurt you until I believe frame 14. That is enough time that in certain cases you can treat Fox's upB like Falco's upB. But other than that you are correct. Only fox's upB get's hitbox frames in it's starting animation.

 

[Miggz]

This actually isn't entirely true. Fox's Firefox doesn't actually start to hurt you until I believe frame 14. That is enough time that in certain cases you can treat Fox's upB like Falco's upB. But other than that you are correct. Only fox's upB get's hitbox frames in it's starting animation.

Frame 14 huh? I mean to ask someone about that too. Thanks for the clarification and reminder. ^^"

 

[bolt.]

Thats cool, I never knew that. Thanks for the info Acnaturnal!

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I checked it out on Seanson's Hitbox System, and it looks like the first hitbox on that move is actually frame 20. So 1/3 second after it's initiated. I could be wrong though, because it's kind of hard to tell where something is a flame and where it's a red bubble.