Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[EarthenPillar]

Is Rosalina/Luma really just reactionary and baiting punishes the entire game? Aside from grounded fire and maybe a jab or two, getting in seems difficult if not nearly impossible with proper Luma management. If Luma is gone, Rosalina isn't a problem grounded once you get the shield time down for her moves, but going aerial seems suicidal unless you retreat fair or hard read dair. Has anyone had any successes dealing with a good Rosa/Luma and if so, how did you manage it?

It took me a while and lots of losses but I think I made a breakthrough somewhere.

As others have said, Rosalina and Luma are strong together. With 8 seconds downtie on Luma, I could conclude only one thing, that your game be revolved around guarding the BOTH of them. You want to be compiling damage on Rosalina, true; but you also want Luma out of the picture as frequently as you can. There's a way to that: spaced, quick, safe damage.

The thing with rosalina and luma is how much space they can safely dominate especially while waiting in the neutral game. Rosalinas will use Luma to negate damage or block, and also to keep you preoccupied should you knock her off. The key here that I've found, is to guard the space where you would just close enough to Firebreath stun her yet far enough to avoid her short hops.

That is the space I've found myself most successful with the majority of Rosalina's out there. Unlike other characters, you don't want to be using Firebreath, Ftilt and Fair on Rosalina. You want to be using those, on Luma. You see, when you space yourself to hit just Luma, Rosalina will almost always be out of range to hit you. With FireBreath, Ftilt and Fair just enough to hit Luma consistantly, you'll be causing the Rosalina player to either:
a. start retaliating by moving closer to you. If she does, she'll be hit by your attacks as well.
b. move back, which is GOOD. It lets you take a couple seconds to refresh your FireBreath!

By this time Rosalina will frequently have a K.O.ed Luma if she doesn't start dodging or spacing herself more. She'll have to resort to starbits which you can laugh at being the Bowser you are! When she's on the offensive or lookng for entry points to knock you out, make sure to keep an eye out for Rosalina's habit of using Fsmash/Dsmash.

My success rate in dealing with her has improved drastically because of this!

Also some side notes:
1. Don't try to Flying Slam her unless it's a solid read that the player isn't spamming A. You can achieve a Flying Slam if you do jab mixups.
2. If she Shield Breaks to Stun either by you or herself and Luma is around, Consider jumping above her and Bowser Bombing her on the side Luma isn't. You'll Thank me later!
3. Always be patient and read her roll game. Rosalina has no real projectile outside of Starbits or launching Luma off. These are both good news so Bowser can continue pressure.


__________________________________________
Now,
Can someone explain to me just how to deal with good Toon Link's Anti Neutral Game Mixups?

 

[Brendan Stepladder]

So... Robin. A match-up that everytime I play I wish I were better at dodge-canceling. Any suggestions?

 

[MrEh]

Have you tried just walking at Robin and just shielding his bad projectiles?

Get to Robin's face. Mash Jab.

 

[EarthenPillar]

So... Robin. A match-up that everytime I play I wish I were better at dodge-canceling. Any suggestions?

Thanks to you I discovered dodge canceling!. To answer your question FireBreath mixups are a terror to pretty much the whole FireEmblem cast.

 

[B!squick]

Against Rosa, I SD until the game is over and then pick a new character.

 

[Anragon]

I don't know how people get so mad against Rosa. Bowser lives to no end against her.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I don't know how people get so mad against Rosa. Bowser lives to no end against her.

Based off of videos, it seems most Bowsers try to challenge her dash attack and up air when they shouldn't. This pretty much just drives you into a corner, regardless of whether you're Bowser or not.

 

[Hitman JT]

Shield the dash attack, then sit on the b***h's face. Bam, you've just beaten 75% of Rosaluma players.

 

[MrEh]

I don't know how people get so mad against Rosa. Bowser lives to no end against her.

Doesn't matter when you get gimped.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Doesn't matter when you get gimped.

Shield the dash attack, then sit on the b***h's face. Bam, you've just beaten 75% of Rosaluma players.

Yeah, it's that other %, though. Never makes any mistakes, retreats aerials, god-like dair gimping. It's pretty uphill. Firebreath, fortress, and up smash are the only things that make the match feel remotely possible.

Interestingly, you can stuff her dair if you perfectly space your up air since you won't be directly beneath her. The hit box extends in front of bowser in a large diagonal disjoint. I've managed to pull off a stock lead several times this way.

 

[Anragon]

Rosaluma's D-air is a threat but recovering has always been a battle to stay alive and save your stock anyway. I still don't get why people are so mad against Rosa. She is a strong character but way far from unbeatable.

I fought many Rosas and even when I lose to the good ones, I think the match-up is just a matter of getting use to her hitboxes and her fighting habits.

 

[MrEh]

People are always going to be mad in a bad matchup. It's BAD for a reason. No one is arguing that wins are impossible. If was possible to beat ICs in Brawl too. That's not what's being argued.

Bowser has no real business beating Rosalina if both players play equally well. It's a very skill based matchup with a lot of counterplay on both ends, making it POSSIBLE for Bowser to win if you play significantly better. However, the matchup is still skewed to the point where either Rosalina has to seriously mess up or you need to seriously outplay in order to win.

Is it winnable? Well yeah, but that's not the point. It's still a disadvantaged matchup, and telling people to "stop complaining and git gud" isn't really fair when basically every Bowser player is struggling with the same problem.

 

[FEFIZ]

I think Bowser always will have problems with camping chars like DHD xP

 

[Hitman JT]

I think Bowser always will have problems with camping chars like DHD xP

The thing about the Duck Hunt match-up is that you can shield the clay pigeon then Tough Guy your way through the followup shots and grab or f-tilt the dog. Only thing to worry about is getting past the can; if you can do that then you've beaten DH. He can't kill Bowser at all.

 

[B!squick]

I have trouble with Rosa's UAir, personally. Nothing stops it, so if she's ever under me it's usually a free stock. Even if you AD, it probably frame traps you. Haven't played against her much, but even if her aerials weren't bananas that stupid Luma gets me every time. It's a projectile that shoots other projectiles and can also punch you in the face, wtf.

 

[MrEh]

Rosalina's Uair basically outprioritizes everything you can do. The key here is to save your double jump or use Dash or Hit Klaw. Just having the extra mobility is great for escaping bad situations. (Rosalina also can't really chase that well horizontally.)

 

[EarthenPillar]

Okay so I encountered a Sheik that knows the spacing game and
B-Reverse Slide Cancel... mixups

I can't figure out how to deal with this just yet, since Bowser's dash -> shield is so slow, there's this space where Sheik can just stay, barely outside of firebreath and come in only when she wants to. The whole time forcing you to deal with her neutral B. The deal with jumping into this mixup of Sheik's is that she can simply cancel the neutral B and react accordingly.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Based on your experience so far, what matchups would you say you know well, and what ones would you consider your worst ones?

The matchups I know well:
ZSS, every Fire Emblem character who is not Robin, Captain Falcon, Fox, Falco, the Mario brothers: I normally have few problems fighting these characters. However, if I encounter a player who can use these characters proficiently, they spell trouble.

Greninja is the only agile projectile character I can fight well against.

My mediocre match ups:
The Links: Both Links give me trouble if they are projectile spammers. I do know their match ups, and I can usually cause major damage if I get within melee range.

Samus: Most campy Samuses love to dodge roll away from me. I punish their rolls with grabs, Fire Breath, or grounded Fortress. If they get a projectile spam routine going, however, it can spell trouble for me.

Mega Man: If I can get close to MM, I can wreck him with melee damage. Like with Samus, once they begin projectile spamming, it becomes difficult to approach.

Little Mac: I have beaten my fair share of Macs, but one who backpedals endlessly and abuses Mac's ridiculous attack speed is trouble for me. Once I get him in the air and b-air him off stage, I let his crappy recovery finish the job.

Rosa & Luma: I focus on whoever is the biggest threat to me at the time. Still, I have not gotten used to most of Rosa's normal moves, though I know how to punish players who rely on Luma too much.

Yoshi: I can anticipate what most Yoshis will do (Egg spam from a distance, abuse Yoshi's multihit aerials and fast-acting moves), but because of Yoshi's superior attack speed, and match against this character is always a tough one for me.

I have trouble against:
Donkey Kong: This guy is strong, but has good range and less laggy moves than Bowser. A good DK usually crushes me based on his superior attack speed and range alone. Then again, I have not played against too many DK's.

A good Sheik: As @ EarthenPillar noted above, a spacing Sheik is trouble.

Robin: The only FE character I have trouble against. The multihit projectiles with knockback and that annoying lifedrain move...

Ness: PK FIRE! Dash attack or back throw or down throw! Rinse and repeat...

 

[EarthenPillar]

King Deedede MU: I think I got this one down now but it's still really unfavorable for bowser and becomes steep if there's some wifi lag. You can't really powershield, counter Gordo if there's input lag when it's such a reactionary fight.

Problems with this MU:
1. It takes almost as much % as you would to knock out another Bowser.
2. King Deedede Gordo > FireBreath Mixups, Not only does Gordo shut FireBreath down, doesn't need to be recharged, but also are much, much safer in space control. He can also space it to make you lose Dash Attack as an option.
3. Bowser's huge hitbox is a pretty big disadvantage against edge guarding King Deedede with angled Gordo. He's already forced your options of movement with Gordo out, all he needs to do is followup.
4. Jab range. Jab damage. Anti Air capabilities. Knockback capabilities. Hits behind King Deedede a little.
5. Multi Jump > Bowser's lack of recovery options. This lets them have some wait time to play neutral or bait off the edge. Did I mention they could Gordo before deciding to come back?
6. King Deedede's Smashes can be used to Shield Break trap Bowser. Considering how much mixup an Air Gordo can do, how much space Bowser's Hitbox is, there aren't plenty of solutions other than to back off when trap is set.

While I'm not giving up on this MU, *Like it took me a while to figure out Rosalina. I think I may need help from a Bowser player who also plays King Deedede to figure this one out... Or one that is already good at the matchup!

 

[Hitman JT]

I like to just jab the Gordo back at him. It goes bouncing back slowly and gives you enough time to get in there and mix him up. If you play somewhere where customs are allowed, you can spam Fire Shot to your heart's content as it'll send back each and every one of 'em.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I like to just jab the Gordo back at him. It goes bouncing back slowly and gives you enough time to get in there and mix him up. If you play somewhere where customs are allowed, you can spam Fire Shot to your heart's content as it'll send back each and every one of 'em.

This is good to know. Lol. Thanks!

On a side note (as far as basic moves go)

It's not just a reactive MU. You can pressure him by going in with Jabs. ALSO, something that Sm4sh Bowsers need to do more of...GO OFF STAGE FOR THAT STOCK. If they get in the habit of throwing Gordos to cover their recovery, you can time it and make it under a Gordo with a RAR Bair for the kill. I'll get more replays of this as I play more good DDDs.

It may be in DDD's favor, but not by a landslide. You just have to pressure them intelligently and know what their quickest attack options are, when they'll go for them, and what beats them.

(We can still catch their auto-canceled Nair with Up-B OOS.) Powershield their jab/tilts and F-tilt/Jab them before they can keep going.

For the love of all that is Smash, I hate their Up-B. Can't even beat their fall with Up-Smash. SO if they up-b to the stage instead of the ledge, just hope over where the star will come out and Bair them in the face. Or klaw. Whatever's the most appropriate at the time.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

This is good to know. Lol. Thanks!

On a side note (as far as basic moves go)

It's not just a reactive MU. You can pressure him by going in with Jabs. ALSO, something that Sm4sh Bowsers need to do more of...GO OFF STAGE FOR THAT STOCK. If they get in the habit of throwing Gordos to cover their recovery, you can time it and make it under a Gordo with a RAR Bair for the kill. I'll get more replays of this as I play more good DDDs.

It may be in DDD's favor, but not by a landslide. You just have to pressure them intelligently and know what their quickest attack options are, when they'll go for them, and what beats them.

(We can still catch their auto-canceled Nair with Up-B OOS.) Powershield their jab/tilts and F-tilt/Jab them before they can keep going.

For the love of all that is Smash, I hate their Up-B. Can't even beat their fall with Up-Smash. SO if they up-b to the stage instead of the ledge, just hope over where the star will come out and Bair them in the face. Or klaw. Whatever's the most appropriate at the time.

The rise on DDD up b doesn't have any super armor, so you can walk off bair the recovery if you're already in a position to do so. I've seen ZeRo pull it off, and I've managed to pull it off a couple times myself. The super armor on the way down is pretty good, though, so I never tried to challenge it. Good to know that up smash doesn't work. =(

 

[EarthenPillar]

ALSO, something that Sm4sh Bowsers need to do more of...GO OFF STAGE FOR THAT STOCK..

Ah, no worries. I believe you mentioned this somewhere a week or so ago and it's been added a LOT of aerial to my game. A LOT of my knockouts now are actually from F/B/Uair, Up-tilt. (not just King DDD) I just needed a better answer to approaching this MU as a whole is all.

I like to just jab the Gordo back at him. It goes bouncing back slowly and gives you enough time to get in there and mix him up.

Didn't know it slows the speed of Gordo down, will definitely try that!

I'm guessing a lot of my problems with King Deedede is that somehow only ppl who spike/lag pick him. I should just probably quit playing the guy when there's wifi lag altogether.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Ah, no worries. I believe you mentioned this somewhere a week or so ago and it's been added a LOT of aerial to my game. A LOT of my knockouts now are actually from F/B/Uair, Up-tilt. (not just King DDD)

Same here. Mastering Bowser's aerial game has really helped me become a more deadly Bowser. I used to rely on Fsmash and Usmash to get all my kills. Now, I get most of my kills from Back Airs and even a spiking Down Air. I still am working on using Up Tilt more, and I learned it can juggle combo most characters.

I can still use Forward and Up Smashes to kill when I have to stay on the ground, but thanks to my working on my aerial game, I can be a tough presence in both the air and the ground.

 

[Hitman JT]

Didn't know it slows the speed of Gordo down, will definitely try that!

I'm guessing a lot of my problems with King Deedede is that somehow only ppl who spike/lag pick him. I should just probably quit playing the guy when there's wifi lag altogether.

It's only a little bit slower but enough to throw them off since they expect it to go flying back from an f-tilt.

Also, to beat D3's up B all I do is jump > air dodge through him > sit on his face.

 

[MrEh]

You can also go for autoguard abuse.

 

[B!squick]

I really don't get why everyone thinks D3 is any good still. I keep looking at videos and what other people are saying and I just don't get it. He's more or less completely different now and it sure looks to me like he's had nothing but nerfs. Explain please.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

anyone have any advice on lucario, i'm really struggling against the character. Seems like just in general he can space far better and outrange most of what we can do, and the endlag on most of his moves is almost nonexistent aside from side-B.

 

[Karsticles]

Here is a video of me against a very strong Ness player. He beat me overall in the set 8-4, and my biggest problems are the combk followup he gets after a down throw and PK Thunder harassment. I would love feedback on those aspects of the match as well as anything else that comes to mind.

Karst (Bowser) vs. Shamrock (Ness): http://youtu.be/kztNVBgZJuU

 

[S_B]

Yeah, Ness' backthrow is disgustingly powerful.

If you can avoid the PKfire when he goes for it, you can usually rush in and grab him.

Also, his Up+B is amazing for racking up damage on Bowser, since he's a big, fat target and typically isn't fast enough to get back to Ness to punish.

 

[B!squick]

You punch that child in the face because his body is at least 50% head.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Also, his Up+B is amazing for racking up damage on Bowser, since he's a big, fat target and typically isn't fast enough to get back to Ness to punish.

As long as you don't challenge Ness' fair, the match with Ness feels pretty even. It's difficult, but if you get the timing down on swiping the PK Thunder out of the air with fair (or air dodge canceling, but that's less swag), you should be able to get in there and force Ness off-stage, where the real fun begins. If you're high up, all you need to be concerned about is landing. If you need to, slide the thumb pad left and right to break out of hit stun so you can perform an aerial or air dodge in time. This mechanic is still there from melee, it's just that you'd rarely use it because of vectoring.

anyone have any advice on lucario, i'm really struggling against the character. Seems like just in general he can space far better and outrange most of what we can do, and the endlag on most of his moves is almost nonexistent aside from side-B.

Sorry for the late reply. I managed to snag a friend that mains Lucario.
Ah yeah, Lucario. If you can read his roll or bait his counter, those are the biggest moments. Next best thing is just trading hits with jab and perfectly spaced dtilts and ftilts on the ground. Also, Lucario has a 45 degree blind spot while grounded. I've been able to get in short hopped fair and aerial klaws against Lucarios that don't hard read an up smash. This is consistent regardless of Lucario's aura level. Good luck, though, if Lucario is grounded and has high aura. A grounded Lucario with high aura is happier than a grounded Bowser, for sure.

 

[S_B]

As long as you don't challenge Ness' fair, the match with Ness feels pretty even. It's difficult, but if you get the timing down on swiping the PK Thunder out of the air with fair (or air dodge canceling, but that's less swag), you should be able to get in there and force Ness off-stage, where the real fun begins. If you're high up, all you need to be concerned about is landing. If you need to, slide the thumb pad left and right to break out of hit stun so you can perform an aerial or air dodge in time. This mechanic is still there from melee, it's just that you'd rarely use it because of vectoring.

And Ness is definitely one of the better characters to use the "run off, B-air" on because, after he's burned his 2nd jump, you know EXACTLY where he's gonna be...

 

[EarthenPillar]

I can't believe I'm still having so much trouble with the King DDD matchup. It's the one matchup I can't figure out how to deal with. I've stated all I have already but it comes down to how much more advantageous his moveset is in this MU. Bowser's dash is too slow on startup to deal with the constant repositioning for this one fight. Edge aerial spot dodges against King DDD is an absolute nightmare!

Is it a horrible MU or is it just me with this problem??

Can anyone give me some tips at all? I'm so tired of working on this MU tbh...

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I can't believe I'm still having so much trouble with the King DDD matchup. It's the one matchup I can't figure out how to deal with. I've stated all I have already but it comes down to how much more advantageous his moveset is in this MU. Bowser's dash is too slow on startup to deal with the constant repositioning for this one fight. Edge aerial spot dodges against King DDD is an absolute nightmare!

Is it a horrible MU or is it just me with this problem??

Can anyone give me some tips at all? I'm so tired of working on this MU tbh...

It's really not just you. The DDD matchup is, imo, as up-hill as Rosalina. You cannot trade, and you cannot zone him. You basically have to play tennis just to create significant openings. DDD can float in the air the entire match and you'll never know when he's gonna finally approach. When he attacks, though, his hit box tends to extend in one direction and not the rest of his body. If you can figure out which attack he's going to do, you can try to get around it with a fair, air dodge canceled klaw/fortress, or shield -> dash -> grab. If he likes to roll upon realizing your approach, it's best to punish that instead, because DDD's roll doesn't travel as far, though he can do it twice in quick succession. If a big attack comes out, try to gain some distance. DDD has just as much end lag on his smash attacks as us. It'll probably be a free bowser bomb. Whatever it takes, try not to be in the air for any significant amount of time. DDD's air game is so much better than ours it's not even funny (the only thing we really have is up-air, which seems to come at a strong angle). If DDD gets you off-stage, things quickly become hopeless. Good luck, and I hope the DDD you fight aren't nearly as disgusting as my Korean friend's Japanese friend that came and wrecked me good. Your post was a big help, so I hope that this helps a little even if most of it is stuff you already know.

 

[Big-Cat]

Any advice on Villager and projectile spamming?

 

[Zigsta]

Any advice on Villager and projectile spamming?

Jab/ftilt beat Gyroid. I usually jab the gyroid instead of shielding so I can't get dashgrabbed. Other than that, you just have to play really patient. It's annoying.

Honestly I think a ton of these janky campy MUs will be a lot more manageable on Wii U thanks to having way more stage options.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Any advice on Villager and projectile spamming?

Jab/ftilt beat Gyroid. I usually jab the gyroid instead of shielding so I can't get dashgrabbed. Other than that, you just have to play really patient. It's annoying.

Honestly I think a ton of these janky campy MUs will be a lot more manageable on Wii U thanks to having way more stage options.

The fair and bair represent the majority of the projectile spam in this MU. If you have a bit of distance, dash power shield will get you in there. If Villager is too close for you to power shield out of a dash, then you should either walk and shield or air dodge cancel towards him. If he tries to Gyroid from far away, do what Zigsta said. If he tries to Gyroid from up close, dash in, grab him, and throw him immediately, or use grounded bomb to carry him and yourself up and over the Gyroid. The Gyroid has an invulnerable hurtbox at first and does not activate its hitbox until a second later when it launches. Everything else (except the axe) can be stopped with ftilts, dtilts, and jabs. Try not to be in the air too long. You will lose that battle.

 

[B!squick]

I apply the same method to More Burrito that I do to Ness.

I'll actually post something meaningful now. Pretty sure you can stop PK Thunder 1 if you hit the "head". Not a lot you can do if you're falling into the tail end, but there's that.

For the Burrito, can you Jab or otherwise hit his FAir/BAir projectiles like other projectiles? Even if you can't, I'd suggest just attacking if he's too close or Dodging/Shielding if he's further away. FAir/BAir is pretty much the only thing you need to avoid, I think. The biggest problem is that he can use that Pocket invincibility to get in close, so UpB often.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Anyone know how to deal with annoying Mario players who abuse the D-throw, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt cheese combo? It's annoying because Bowser is a big target to begin with, and this is something that v1.0.4 should have addressed, since Mario can do this to everyone. I go from 0% to 70% in one cheese combo. This and dealing with Mario players who abuse the lag canceling Mario has.