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That's the worse case scenario. You basically need to angle away from Mario and hope Mario doesn't predict where you're vectoring. Try to save your double jump, if possible, since it can help you dodge the attack that comes out after a failed follow-up.
F-air is your best friend in this match-up. Chase and harass him when he starts floating around
Thanks a lot for the consensus! I thought it was just my playstyle or something. I do hope we can eventually figure a solid way to deal with this MU!
I've always been DI-ing those. It's hard not to get downthrowed then combo-ed into for bowser tho. At least it's not as a bad time avoiding the Dthrow with Mario than ZSS. Just make sure to tilt into the direction you're alrady drifting towards. It's 30% or so that way and he can't do Up-tilt again at higher %. Mario should be doing Dthrow -> Uair at mid %, after the first Uair u can always air dodge.
I can get away from Mario before taking 40% damage. I can get away from most Luigis before taking 40% damage. What I meant by this guy following my vectoring meant exactly that. The player was a god. I was not talking about Luigi's intrinsic strengths until I began talking about his fireball -> dair, fireball -> dash grab, and cyclone. To give you an idea of how god-like this guy is, he could perfectly aim a green missile from across the stage just to chase me, and I'd be forced to air dodge or get hit (yes, he could read my fast fall). I had to type out all of my thoughts here so I wouldn't forget.
That wasn't aimed at you, by the way. I was just making a general statement.
I won't be able to tonight, but I'd be down to over the weekend. Just let me know what time works best.
Powershield or die.
Abuse dash stop and the pimp walk + shield or die.
Yeah, Bowser's default recovery is too predictable for Sheik, so we get hit off-stage by bouncing fish very easily unless we decide to SD out of spite. All of our moves are unsafe. Being conditioned to shield is bad. My only success has been with stupid clutch jabs. I have not had a legit victory against great Sheiks either.
Zigsta
Did you happen to ask any Sheiks at the venue for an NNID share? I actually didn't get to go up against any before I had to leave.
It's ballsy and might work off-stage if you're airdodge canceling into Sheik. Otherwise, expect retribution even if you hit your opponent.
Even assuming they don't whiff the punish, a perfect fortress is 30+ percent. If we get even 20% off of that, it'll pay off since Sheik's attacks don't deal a lot of damage individually. It's not a bad idea given the very real chance of not contributing any damage in a stock. Worse case is she reaches the ground before us and sweet-spots an up smash or lands a vanish, killing us. As long as you can hit the ground and get your second jump back, there's a chance for survival.
Fire Breath is kind of good against him if he spin dash spams.
Sonic loses out to our jab pretty hard. He loses to our ftilt just outside of jab range extremely hard unless he gets the wind-back on his fsmash. If you see a spin dash, make sure you're ready to punch him and cancel the attack. You can proceed to jab 1, but don't jab 2 if they roll. You need to be prepared to spot dodge the homing attack or jump OoS for a punish. Do not be conditioned to preemptively shield. Sonic will dash grab mixup. Try giving some ground and doing a pivot grab/tilt if that happens, otherwise spot-dodge and judge their reaction. Sanic's dash grab is very precise and does not slide him far, so even inching back can have serious repercussions for him. Punching him is really the best option. Just imagine he's a projectile.
B!squick
As great as RosaLuma may seem, I have never seen or experienced one that could wreck us as badly as the ones I've listed in Tier A, especially when you're trying not to challenge her in the air. If you know what moves to respect from Sanic, he can't KO us till 160+% and his setups for those attacks are telegraphed, though still require good timing on our end to deal with. Similar to DH, actually, since we win trades and clashes, but without the annoyance of a maze of hit boxes.
Never challenge the UAir. Just fade away. You should wait for Rosa to separate from Luma, or just straight up flame Luma. If she dash grabs or dash attacks, it's a good sign you're doing something right.
One of my best friends main Luigi and I've been teaching him everything MrCC has been doing, as well as what I can remember from my matches against Marvin. Luigi has a much better air to ground and ground to air game than Jiggs could ever hope to have, and it's thanks to the synergy he has between his cyclone, fireballs, dash grab, dthrow, fair, uair, dair, and insanely safe jab shield pressure. On top of that, Luigi's cyclone covers way more options than pound does both on the ground and in the air, at the top of FD and off-stage. Luigi's SHORYUKEN is less effective than Rest is at killing us at the expense of not making him a wet rag for a year, but it's still terrifying given all of Luigi's strengths. Luigi's recovery is not predictable thanks to how a low/high-altitude green missile and rising cyclone supplement his ridiculous vertical recovery. All of our low altitude off-stage options are stuffed by rising cyclone. This isn't to say that Jiggs isn't strong. Jiggs' bair alone has terrifying KB scaling and should keep her a threat through out the match, but her approach is much easier to deal with while we're grounded and DIing down and away during her fair or bair strings actually gives us a chance to escape.JayDeth said:
You never have to approach Sanic unless you're a stock down or it's the last stock and he's got a percent lead. If he's charging up at max range, you have even more time to react than if he just ran at you from half way. If he runs away, that's free stage control (pick your spot and get ready to deal with the next approach). As for our approach, don't dash towards Sanic at close range unless you know you're gonna get something out of it, don't shield pre-emptively (wait for him to spin first), and aerial klaw or flame if he's showing too much respect. His options to punish our approach are limited drastically in this manner, and should never lead into a KO unless something goes horribly wrong for us. Yeah, it's gonna be hard to react to everything when you're new to the matchup, but your timing and punishes will get sharper before long because, unlike most of the characters we've listed, Sanic leaves decent openings after rushing in. Combine that with his atrocious air to ground options and we have what I think is a fairly even matchup. Oh, his recovery sometimes doesn't sweet spot, so you're free to make of that what you will. Generally, fire is free damage vs. his recovery. Low risk, low reward.JayDeth said:
We're in it for the long haul. No rush. Like your response to Charizard's grab range (which isn't too different from ours, it's just that he tucks his body into his shield, making it seem longer than usual), it's just a lot of cross-referencing. Any differing experiences should be noted in case someone has time to test the outcomes of different decisions.JayDeth said:
Diddy's definitely not that bad. I think it's just a -1 for us. Charizard feels fairly even to me, or we are +1. We def don't lose to him. Charizard lacks anything that screams "I can camp or combo Bowser for days."S -
A -
B -
Starting from Tier A difficulty, we get 0% to death by good/great players or KOd ridiculously early off of small mistakes.
Tier B has characters that can wall us off or win trades easily with proper spacing, projectiles, and/or high priority attacks.
@
I feel like Little Mac should be on this list based off my criteria, but I'm just gonna give him an honorable mention here. It's a swingy matchup.
Zigsta
ZSS' air game is similar to Shiek vs. us. I learned that the hard way in my 2nd match of the set in my final matchup in loser's bracket last Saturday. Her ground game and air to ground is worse than Sheik's thanks to raw frame data, IMO, but not by a lot. Just enough to make it less of a ball-crushing matchup. Samus has a similar issue to Link in that projectiles wrack up good damage while managing our approach options with a good ground game, but her projectiles set her up for her ground to air game much better against us. Her ground to air game is unstoppable thanks to her up b chaining us to high heaven at almost all percents. Definitely a bigger boon for her than in Brawl. Palutena's god-like roll, dash attack, and bair are difficult for us to deal with and can wall us in many situations. Dash attack and bair have the auto-guard property and bair auto cancels. Combine those with her neutral b, and it's easy to be conditioned to shield against her, leading to grab mixups. Her other attacks are typically laggy but have large disjoint, so they won't be seen outside of reads and punishes. Her jab won't be used against us once she realizes Tough Guy works against it.
Melonfrog
Feel free to roll away from Jiggs. There's not much she can do to punish your roll if she's low to the ground. This is a great matchup to condition yourself not to throw out fortress against spaced attacks. Throwing out fortress is pretty much instant death against Jiggs and other characters with amazing kill moves since Rest and the like are easy to land during that move's atrocious end lag. Angled up ftilt and reverse uair are really your best tools on the ground aside from a good usmash auto-guard, as you've already discovered. Count her jumps and make sure you're ready for her to get low to the ground before going all-in. If you can get underneath her, throwing out uair or rising nairs can sometimes catch jiggs off-guard. You can usually land before anything serious happens or force an air dodge. It's good pressure for us.