Character Competitive Impressions

[The Real Gamer]

I'd argue the fact that he is high percentage is exploitable enough. Lucario is a high risk/high reward character and heavy damage is every bit as risky to him as it to you.

This isn't a character specific weakness though. He still seems like a solid character even without percentage. With percentage he becomes arguably the most dangerous character in the game. I'm not seeing the high risk involved here.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Rosaluma and lucario are silly.
Lucario because it seems aura and rage are stacking. Basically Mr.comeback.

I'd argue the fact that he is high percentage is exploitable enough. Lucario is a high risk/high reward character and heavy damage is every bit as risky to him as it to you.

Except rage and aura stack so at 80% he is already very dangerous
Its no weakness due to the double stack Lucario very quickly hits like a beast. There is basically no risk involved.

 

[grandmaster192]

But every dash attack in the game out of shield punishes short hop forward air.

Impossible. Marth's tipper fair has enough shield stun and it pushes people back far enough for it to be safe. There is no way possible you can punish this with a dash attack.

 

[Conda]

edit: neeevermind

 

[Luco]

Impossible. Marth's tipper fair has enough shield stun and it pushes people back far enough for it to be safe. There is no way possible you can punish this with a dash attack.

I don't know about tipper, but you're assuming you'll have the spacing advantage on your opponent when you OoS SH Fair or even just SH Fair. If for whatever reason you can't get the tipper (timed it wrong or else they baited it out or whatever else) then suddenly you can be punished (and it's something i've abused in the past by SH Nair-ing/Fair-ing). :/

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ah, here's the thread Ive been looking for the past couple days, thread title threw me off so my brain automatically skipped over it lol.

Anyway, on the topic of Marth, I REALLY dont think people should SH Fair shields with him too much in this game, full hop fair is MUCH safer, especially when retreating, and Marth definitely has ways to safely land afterwards with nair. Also, one thing, I dont think Marth should really be trying to hit shields in general unless he's, again, landing with nair. Imo he's better off throwing fair/nair/whatever walls in front of where they'll be to catch dashes, but even then, I think Marth's plain neutral ground based footsies are stronger since he just has WAY more options from a standing/walking state and the range/speed to capitalize on small spacing errors. Abandon the Melee/Brawl mindset of Marth and focus on dat Street Fighter style of footsies imo.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

@ Shaya So is this more along the lines of what I should be doing?

@ Z'zgashi Does that mean I was on to something when I made this observation?

In our first games I used a lot of SH aerials, as that's what I'm used to doing, but later on I realised that having a stronger ground game was more effective against you. All those Dtilt and Ftilt pokes with grab mixups made me feel like I was playing Roy again.

 

[B!squick]

Is it just me, or is Jiggly REALLY good? Of all the characters I could gravitate to after Bowser, I was not expecting it to be his polar opposite. And I'm really disappointed with Bowser Jr.

 

[Shaya]

@ Shaya So is this more along the lines of what I should be doing?

Yes. You want to have your fair hit around that part in your jump, but you want to be able to do it out of a dash and retreat as you're rising; this is literally M/L's single safe approach in both Brawl and this game (in practise you won't always fully retreat and looming kinda right above someone's head is easier to continue hits, but its punishable on read if they block it).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think there are any notable vidoes of Lucario out yet - in fact I don't even know if there are any top level Lucario players at all right now. From playing as him as well as against him I can assure you though that Lucario is really stupid in this game.

Aura really does make him that much better. The aura effect itself has been increased and with rage being a thing in this game Lucario can start killing opponents around 80% with Force Palm [80% on both, myself and the opponent, was just about the lowest % I could land a kill with that move]. His other KO moves are all pretty safe on shield and he has powerful edgeguarding tools too. In a game where it seems that a lot of the characters struggle to get their KOs Lucario is the one character that kills opponents earlier than you'd expect. Imagine playing Trela's Lucario in Brawl with higher KO power and that you can no longer gimp. His counter has also been dramatically powered up.

Gameplay-wise, Lucario has good footsies and a strong mid-range zoning game. His jab, grab, utilt and dtilt are the prefered grounded close-range options, mixed up with fair and defensive moves [his rolls are still very good]. For mid range zoning game Fsmash, ftilt, bair and aura sphere are all good, disjointed moves that are hard to punish allowing Lucario to safely pressure his opponents from mid-range. Pivot ftilt and fsmash are fantastic options and are good tools to ledge trap opponents. I honestly don't think that Lucario is that hard a character to play because he has been largely left the same as in Brawl except better in almost every way. Even his "gimmicks" such as reverse neutralB to escape juggle traps still work. The only move that I can tell to have been nerfed is his Aura Sphere. Its KO power seems to have decreased whereas the cooldown lag has been increased but that only means that you have to use that move a bit less than you would've done in Brawl.

Some of his hitboxes got hit and if you played him in Brawl like I did, you're going to notice it really fast. RiP lingering long distance Fsmash/Dair. Aura Sphere's KO power I'm not sure, I've killed very early with it though that might be due to how high I was in percentage. I dunno how you are getting solid KOs with force palm. I can't get a command grab these days. The best part isn't even the grab anymore, it's the hitbox flame due to it's range scaling up with aura. The Grab hitbox got nerfed and trying to grab with it is a lot harder to the point I don't even think I can cross up for a frame 1 aerial grab on the 3DS. Still his KO power max aura gets really stupid, I've killed people on the opposite side of the stage with smash attacks at 70% for them to die flying across the stage and dying on the opposite side.

I've found killing with Uair/Bair/Dsmash/Aura Sphere more reliable overall. Might be the 3DS and still trying to adjust a bit on that one though.

His recovery is mad stupid at higher %'s though. I'm pretty sure if used right, it's really hard to even hit him out of his UpB anymore. Not impossible though, I've punished other Lucario's online since I think I got how much he can curve and distance down a lot better now that I have been playing him a lot more. Still this isn't easy at all and if Lucario's get better at learning how to stop him with minimal to no lag at the end of Extreme Speed he's gonna be really hard to gimp. Characters need to find a way to hit him at the end of it or in the middle.

Someone wants to know weaknesses Lucario has, willing to bet if Aura still operates like it did in Brawl his shield safety scales with Aura, early on you can gimp him pretty well. Outside of the range buff on his flame of side B I feel like his range got hit all around, might be the 3ds though. Try and abuse that I would think.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I just wanted to say I'm really happy to see some of you guys posting again, I love me some active forums.

I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said. My top 5 atm is Sheik Rosalina ZSS Diddy Sonic. But there are so many good characters that I could easily be wrong about any of it. I think Smash 4 is going to be an amazing game to play, and reasonably versatile.

A few pages ago someone asked me about ZSS' + on block moves and I forgot to reply. A great example is nair; If you space it well and hit low enough (don't hit top of shield) and fast fall, it's not punishable by anything. ZSS can do anything before their shield can drop. Standard power shield warnings apply obviously. Paralyzer at any range other than point blank is also a shield trap. Back air is similar to nair but the move kind of sucks now, idk. Ftilt seems +, and dtilt spaced is - but not really punishable.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

I know its been said many times in this thread already, but Link really is a good character now. I've been using him a lot more recently and I can see the potential. That being said, I feel like he will lose to speedy characters that can dish out moves quickly (Sheik, Greninja, ZSS and Sonic) or characters that can control the stage much better than he can (Rosalina and DHD <-- he's not too bad). You'll need a solid secondary for those match ups. Otherwise, he can hold his own fairly well.

 

[Noa.]

Right now I think the top characters at the moment are Diddy, Bowser, DHD, Greninja, Little Mac, Lucario, Pacman, Rosalina, Sheik, Yoshi, and ZSS. I haven't seen enough of Sonic to have a definitive opinion on how effective he is, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was also top tier. I think all of those characters are very strong and very playable in tourney. But the best character could be between Diddy, Lucario, Rosalina, Sheik, Yoshi, and ZSS right now.

While there are a lot of characters I think are underwhelming, I'm not sure who's just meddling and who's actually bad. It's too early to tell definitively of course.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I know its been said many times in this thread already, but Link really is a good character now. I've been using him a lot more recently and I can see the potential. That being said, I feel like he will lose to speedy characters that can dish out moves quickly (Sheik, Greninja, ZSS and Sonic) or characters that can control the stage much better than he can (Rosalina and DHD <-- he's not too bad). You'll need a solid secondary for those match ups. Otherwise, he can hold his own fairly well.

Problem with Link is his grab just isn't scary. He doesn't get much damage or setup potential from it. And Link is still bad at approaching and has limited and predictable tools for fighting in midrange.

 

[Remzi]

Problem with Link is his grab just isn't scary. He doesn't get much damage or setup potential from it.

I think you nailed it there. With guaranteed follow-ups out of dthrow, Link would be a high tier candidate IMO. His recovery is greatly boosted by:

• New ledge mechanics
• Very short timer on bomb explosions, if you pluck a bomb as soon you are hit relatively far towards a blast zone, the bomb explodes in time to give you a second up B every single time. Whereas in Brawl, the bomb only came in handy if your air time was prolonged because you were hit, or if you had plucked the bomb before being sent off stage

Beyond that, his projectile game is great, cancelling zair and air dodge lag with bomb throw helps him a ton. He has very many edgeguarding options, and now edgeguarding aggressively is far less risky. He's not great up close, but a fast jab (with mixup potential), and great aerial cross up options are enough so that he can compete if you break through his projectile wall. Its really a shame that his grab game is so poor.

 

[superange]

To me Bowser, Falcon and Sonic got buffed the most

while Meta Knight got nerfed the most (massive loss of range and priority)


Other people notably buffed:
Lucario
Charizard
ZSS
Jigglypuff
Yoshi

Other people notably nerfed:
Pikachu
Falco
Olimar (outside recovery)


Everyone else is about the same from Brawl from what I see but I may be missing something

 

[Emblem Lord]

The draw back of dashing assault is also lower damage than shield breaker.

IMO I think I have found the optimal custom load out with Marth. Will post more later.

BUT...I dont think hes top with this. I think hes high tier. Same as Brawl basically.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I'll go ask here, since the mods told me I should discuss it here:
I might be a big fool for asking this, as I'm not a smart guy with competitive Smash. But with the new perfect balance Smash 3DS has given to us, do you think everyone will be in the same rank of the tier list, as in everyone is able match-up against each other equally? I apologize again if I don't make any sense.

 

[dddragon]

I'll go ask here, since the mods told me I should discuss it here:
I might be a big fool for asking this, as I'm not a smart guy with competitive Smash. But with the new perfect balance Smash 3DS has given to us, do you think everyone will be in the same rank of the tier list, as in everyone is able match-up against each other equally? I apologize again if I don't make any sense.

No.

 

[Tristan_win]

I like how Sheik wasn't included in this list due to her not fitting perfectly into either buffed or nerf category. Sheik is better in smash4 but only because the game is built better for her, as far as move set goes if you exclude bouncing fish and needles being less laggy among with a stronger vanish and fsmash(but a weaker usmash and slower dsmash) she has nerfs across the board.

Well played @ superange

 

[StaffofSmashing]

I have 2 questions I'd like to address, and these relevant to the Eventhubs Tier List.

• Why is Dr. Mario so low, when he;s virtually the same as Melee's awesome Doc
• Sheik, top? WHAT!?

EDIT:

I'll go ask here, since the mods told me I should discuss it here:
I might be a big fool for asking this, as I'm not a smart guy with competitive Smash. But with the new perfect balance Smash 3DS has given to us, do you think everyone will be in the same rank of the tier list, as in everyone is able match-up against each other equally? I apologize again if I don't make any sense.

So Bowser will be in an equal match against Jigs? Nah.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Some of his hitboxes got hit and if you played him in Brawl like I did, you're going to notice it really fast. RiP lingering long distance Fsmash/Dair. Aura Sphere's KO power I'm not sure, I've killed very early with it though that might be due to how high I was in percentage. I dunno how you are getting solid KOs with force palm. I can't get a command grab these days. The best part isn't even the grab anymore, it's the hitbox flame due to it's range scaling up with aura. The Grab hitbox got nerfed and trying to grab with it is a lot harder to the point I don't even think I can cross up for a frame 1 aerial grab on the 3DS. Still his KO power max aura gets really stupid, I've killed people on the opposite side of the stage with smash attacks at 70% for them to die flying across the stage and dying on the opposite side.

I've found killing with Uair/Bair/Dsmash/Aura Sphere more reliable overall. Might be the 3DS and still trying to adjust a bit on that one though.

His recovery is mad stupid at higher %'s though. I'm pretty sure if used right, it's really hard to even hit him out of his UpB anymore. Not impossible though, I've punished other Lucario's online since I think I got how much he can curve and distance down a lot better now that I have been playing him a lot more. Still this isn't easy at all and if Lucario's get better at learning how to stop him with minimal to no lag at the end of Extreme Speed he's gonna be really hard to gimp. Characters need to find a way to hit him at the end of it or in the middle.

Someone wants to know weaknesses Lucario has, willing to bet if Aura still operates like it did in Brawl his shield safety scales with Aura, early on you can gimp him pretty well. Outside of the range buff on his flame of side B I feel like his range got hit all around, might be the 3ds though. Try and abuse that I would think.

His recovery is pretty absurd. If he sees you trying to follow him off-edge he can just up b immediately. By 120% he can basically use extreme speed alone to move from the bottom corners of the stages.

Pretty much just end up guessing where he is going to be and hoping for the best. He can do anything and as Shulk if I go into 3/5 Monado forms he can basically K.O at 60/70% if I'm near the ledge.

 

[Blue Warrior]

I honestly don't see how Doc can be better than Mario at this point. His recovery was gutted, he doesn't have as good combo ability or mobility as Mario, and he's harder to gimp with due to lack of FLUDD and a worse fair. What little KO power and approach options he received isn't enough to make his on-stage game any better than Mario's, imo.

 

[kataridragon]

I agree with your list. I would also like to note that I think Ness got some great buffs particularly his airs. It's the best iteration of him since 64.

Honestly go check out Ness. His back throw kills at around 100%. Super useful. He deals good damage and has some good priority in his airs.

Meta knight got nerfed pretty good but I feel like Falco got hit the hardest. He just isn't even close to the same. He feels like a shadow of his former self.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lots of people sleeping on Fox ... that character is mad good.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

I'll go ask here, since the mods told me I should discuss it here:
I might be a big fool for asking this, as I'm not a smart guy with competitive Smash. But with the new perfect balance Smash 3DS has given to us, do you think everyone will be in the same rank of the tier list, as in everyone is able match-up against each other equally? I apologize again if I don't make any sense.

There will always be a few characters characters at the top that are more viable in competitive, but so far I think that the meta will be more varied than they were in previous games. Some characters certainly have issues, but not on Brawl Ganondorf's level. I'm looking at the tiers in terms of "top competitive" and "everyone else" right now.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Ganondorf will probably be his own tier anyway.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I have 2 questions I'd like to address, and these relevant to the Eventhubs Tier List.

• Why is Dr. Mario so low, when he;s virtually the same as Melee's awesome Doc
• Sheik, top? WHAT!?

EDIT:

So Bowser will be in an equal match against Jigs? Nah.

Doc is awesome, I love him... but this metagame is primarily about stage control and high strength. Sadly, Doc's high-bouncing pills and frankly meh speed don't give him advantages in these areas, definitely not at least when compared to a lot of the other characters this game. While I still play him often in For Glory and have a pretty good record as him, he's not as good as the others. Don't consider low-tier as "bad", just "weaker than mid and high tier".

 

[DJ Arcatek]

His grab game is sub-par at best, I know, but like BengalsRZ said, he still has an arsenal of tools at his disposal. His camping game is much better than ever and he still has Zair + bomb throw shenanigans. His jab isn't terrible, either, and Nair is so good for edge guarding.

I'm not saying he's high/top tier, but he has potential and is certainly viable.

 

[Esquire]

Lots of people sleeping on Fox ... that character is mad good.

I second this. I personally think Fox will rise once people realize how many good match-ups he has against this cast. Too many people focusing on what he lost tool-wise. They should be focusing on competitive match-ups.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't think anyone is sleeping on Fox. Multiple people say he is good.
However have you seen Rosaluma & Lucario?
IMO they leave a greater impact then Greninja, sheik and Zss who are well acclaimed.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There will always be a few characters characters at the top that are more viable in competitive, but so far I think that the meta will be more varied than they were in previous games. Some characters certainly have issues, but not on Brawl Ganondorf's level. I'm looking at the tiers in terms of "top competitive" and "everyone else" right now.

What's really depressing is that custom moves add another kink into this where you gotta evaluate their new tools when they can use them or not.

In For Glory, Palatina isn't that great. With her Customs she is a hell off a lot better with some ridiculous set-ups/combos.

 

[Gunla]

Going along with Red, I will note that against friends and from other players, Palutena's default specials moveset isn't very good.

She's a weird case, as her specials are all fully different from one another. She does start with all customs unlocked, however, so this may be less of an issue for Palutena at tourneys, given if they allow Palutena players to actually use them pre-match.

 

[Varadain]

How does Sonic stack up? Haven't seen many people mention him here but when I read in other places hes said to be a top 5.

 

[Shaya]

Sonic got the Foxification treatment (i.e. buffed normals), while not suffering any notable nerfs between Brawl and this game. His specials have a mix of more depth in some areas while other capabilities taken away. I think he's exponentially potent at running away/timing out though, and an FD only ruleset favours him extremely.
He isn't Mac where he'll falter on CPs/non standards, but he is soooooooo strong on FD that I can't foresee him not being in that top 10 caste within the current competitive paradigms. Approaching Sonic is hard, and a Sonic running away isn't possible for most of the cast to punish.

 

[mangamusicfan]

Gannondorf got a lot better I really think hè is ready now for high level play.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc is awesome, I love him... but this metagame is primarily about stage control and high strength. Sadly, Doc's high-bouncing pills and frankly meh speed don't give him advantages in these areas, definitely not at least when compared to a lot of the other characters this game. While I still play him often in For Glory and have a pretty good record as him, he's not as good as the others. Don't consider low-tier as "bad", just "weaker than mid and high tier".

Those pills might not be great on FD but on Battlefield they're pretty solid. Their bounce is what makes them good because you can't really shorthop or do anything over them. In all honesty I feel like Doc is far TOO low on that list. No he should not be higher than Mid, but he should not be lower than Mid-low.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Link's grab isn't even that bad by itself anymore. It's the lack of follow-ups on throws that makes his grab game pretty poor overall - there's little reward to gain for the amount of risk you take. Though I feel like a weak grab game might not even be that much of a downside in this game. Most characters either have a tether grab [typically with little combo potential] or abysmal grab range. You'd think that Sheik can do all kinds of silly stuff from a dthrow but try getting that grab in the first place! It's a lot harder to do than it used to be even against poor players, let alone against somebody who knows his footsies. This partly explains why on the one hand shield is still an amazingly powerful option in this game [the other being the fact that shields refresh really fast in smash 4] and why on the other hand Yoshi is so good in this game - because his actually good grab game allows him to deal with shields a lot better than virtually all other characters do.

How does Sonic stack up? Haven't seen many people mention him here but when I read in other places hes said to be a top 5.

Sonic is stupid good now, bro. Definitely a contender for top 5 imo.

 

[san.]

I dunno, pivot grabs seem to be globally ridiculous in this game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

My personal experience suggests otherwise. I've had my pivot grabs lose to moves that never would have won in Brawl or PM. This is also the first smash game where grabs consistently lose trades, dealing only 3% damage in a trading scenario. Grabs are definitely more limited in smash 4 than any other smash game so far imo.