Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[Vermy]

Ivy/zard start.
Not squirtle because of the same reason as Dorf: careless enough and you die early, probably from his amazing jab combo. Its too risky imo.

Ivy is a safe option. Dtilt is quick and has great range and jab will trap him cos he's a fatty. =3
And as mentioned, bullsh*tseed ruins him and gives you an early lead. if you manage to spotdodge/PS a smash, you can punish with the usmash of doom.

One fair offstage from zard = death
Flameguarding = death/50% damage
Uair = comborama
An undecayed Fthrow near the edge will send ike to a hellish place.

I'd personally start with Zard, switch to squirtle after the kill, ivy stock, zard stock.

Charizard just owned some Ike.

 

[Steeler]

i've never seen the CG, but ike is supposed to be able to fair you at the end of the stage. this is very very bad, and i would not start as squirtle in this case. or use squirtle much at all in this matchup.

ivysaur kind of has a spacing advantage but ike's close game far surpasses yours, and he does a LOT more damage with his spacing moves. you have to play pretty flawlessly or it'll be easy for ike to catch up to you.

charizard's cool but rock smash isn't very good in this matchup.

orion i think you are overrating water gun against aether, ike can just recover low enough that not much of the attack is exposed. plus the sword itself has huge priority. the only way i've seen water gun ever reliably gimp is if ike has his back facing towards you, so you aren't hitting the sword.

 

[T-block]

Ivy can do OK against Ike in close with n-air and Bullet Seed. His jab combo is the biggest threat, so if you're wary of that I think Ivy will do fine. You can force him to approach after all.

 

[Steeler]

razor leaf sucks and he could technically force you to approach by just standing there and powershielding the razor leafs while your stamina drains.

 

[Bomber7]

Well we have to remember, even though Squirtle can get KO'd early by Ike, he has to catch us first, and if you are quite skilled with Squirtle, like I semi-am, that won't be easy. Plus with water gun, spacing can be fun :D and grabbing Ike and f-throwing, I'm sure you can get a good chain going and get him off stage and get a gimp in.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

That assumes you outplay the Ike player, Bomber. I try not to consider personal skill in things like this, and assume both players are of even skill.

Personally, I'll let Ike Approach me, even if Ivysaur grows tired. All fatigue does is hamper my KO power and my damage. But in the end, Ike is like a fortress. He has good defense, but he can't go anywhere. At least not hastely, so even if Ivysuar get's tired, then that shouldn't effect you much.

 

[Bomber7]

well like I mentioned in my last post, I'm assuming that squirtle's grab can put the pain on Ike, right?

 

[Zigsta]

well like I mentioned in my last post, I'm assuming that squirtle's grab can put the pain on Ike, right?

The Ikes I play are pretty good at shielding at least the last jab, sometimes the first. Grab release to jab also doesn't work well against the Ikes I play. Not sure if this is easier for Ikes as a whole to shield or it's just the Ikes I've played, but I don't jab Ike as much for that reason. Ike's jab, on the other hand, is always a problem against Squirtle, as even the most basic Ike players understand to abuse hie jab combo.

 

[Bomber7]

I played a decent Ike once, I liked how he could jab out of a quick draw :D. though I would like to think that we can get a chain grab, not so much a grab release chain on him. Preferably a f-throw chain grab.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Razor leaf to grab is too good.
I have to say go with Ivysaur on this one as the other posts say.

 

[Ryusuta]

But in the end, Ike is like a fortress. He has good defense, but he can't go anywhere.

I've never heard a more accurate analogy for Ike.

 

[Toby.]

Steeler, squirtles water gun is actually pretty good against aether. It only pushes ike back a teensy bit, but its just enough to stop him from grabbing the edge. He can still recover low enough for us to miss him, though.

I believe that ike can also simply jab razor leaf to cancel it out.

 

[T-block]

Jab combo, autocancelled n-airs and b-airs are gonna give Squirtle some trouble, and he really can't afford to take damage against Ike. Yeah you're faster than him in general, and you're a small target, but these moves have a lot of range and they're fast... Squirtle doesn't have it THAT easy. Charizard is a much better start - he gimps better than Water Gun does too.

 

[Bomber7]

Well it looks like we can agree that Ivy and Charizard are definitely are good choices because their range game will really cause Ike trouble and cause a possible gimp.

Now I think we should focus whether or not Squirtle is a good choice as well. I still think he is along with the other 2.

 

[T-block]

It's not terrible to start Squirtle, but there's no reason to unless your other two suck -_-

-Squirtle is stupidly light. You can't just say "oh you're small and fast so don't get hit". Ike has moves that are fast with large hitboxes, and a good Ike is probably going to hit you with them. Dying at 60% is not exactly gg since you have the other two to come back, but it's definitely not good for your momentum
-Yeah Squirtle can gimp Ike. Charizard does it better.
-Squirtle start makes it difficult to stock tank. Ivy start let's you switch to Charizard right away, Charizard start you can just not switch until you die.
-Ivy and Charizard have more range than Squirtle. They can get control over the match from the beginning better than Squirtle can.
-and there is this CG that I've never seen but that everyone is talking about

I don't think we can justify saying all 3 are fine starters here.

 

[Ryusuta]

It's not terrible to start Squirtle, but there's no reason to unless your other two suck -_-

-Squirtle is stupidly light. You can't just say "oh you're small and fast so don't get hit".

Why not? You pretty much ALWAYS have to say that with Squirtle.

Ike has moves that are fast with large hitboxes, and a good Ike is probably going to hit you with them.

What is "probably," exactly? I could just as easily say a good Squirtle is probably NOT going to get hit with them.

-Yeah Squirtle can gimp Ike. Charizard does it better.

This is a matter of opinion; and I strongly disagree with yours.

-Squirtle start makes it difficult to stock tank. Ivy start let's you switch to Charizard right away, Charizard start you can just not switch until you die.

Against Ike, stock tanking is either not necessary, or won't help, depending on the skill level of the respective players.

-Ivy and Charizard have more range than Squirtle. They can get control over the match from the beginning better than Squirtle can.

The first one is a constant factor that in no way influences Squirtle's unique potential, and I also disagree quite strongly with the idea that they can start better than he can against Ike.

I don't think we can justify saying all 3 are fine starters here.

I definitely DO think that it's completely justified. Your arguments against starting Squirtle are spotty and subjective at best.

 

[Steeler]

the fact that squirtle is small and light is more of a factor in this matchup because ike is very powerful and has huge hitboxes. it's not the same as the matchup against, say, mario.

stock tanking is pointless against ike, even his jab KOs at 150%.

 

[T-block]

Bomber's argument seemed to be that Squirtle would be a good start because you can run in there and not get hit. All I'm saying is that this is unreasonable ("probably going to hit you with them"), and with Ike a few hits is gonna put you in a lot more danger than against other characters. So, I can say that even a good Squirtle probably IS going to get hit, and it's gonna hurt when he does.

Yes, I suppose it is a matter of opinion ._. F-air, flamethrower, and to a lesser extent d-air work beautifully when Ike is off the edge... and Charizard's throws/tilts put Ike in an easier spot to be edgeguarded than Squirtle's do. Yeah it's my opinion, and if you wanna dismiss it just because it's a matter of opinion, fine. I'm not gonna argue too much if you say Squirtle gimps Ike as well as Charizard does.

I'll concede on the stock tanking point. I didn't mean stock tanking in the "Charizard surviving at 180%" sense, and I realize that's unreasonable to expect that against Ike. However, it's fact that Charizard simply lives longer than Squirtle does. Even if you die on your first stock at 110% as Charizard instead of 70% as Squirtle, I'd still say it's enough of a benefit.

I should make one thing clear. I'm not arguing that Squirtle is a bad start against Ike. I'm arguing that Ivysaur and Charizard are better. Fine, Squirtle has the potential to start and control the match against Ike from the beginning. But it's riskier. f-tilt, n-air, jab combo all pose more of a threat to Squirtle than to Ivy or Zard, and again, his size doesn't help.

Maybe I should rephrase my last sentence as well. I meant something more like "I don't think we can justify that all three are equally good starters." My point is that Ivysaur or Charizard start have enough of an advantage over Squirtle start that we shouldn't be saying "any one is fine".

I guess that last post was kinda unclear. I've been really tired all night, but hopefully this one is better >_>

 

[Canvasofgrey]

The point of Squirtle's size is that he's hard to hit. However, the counter for small size (Which usually is a complement of light weight) is a disjointed hitbox. Ike has several of these disjoints, so with Squirtle, you have to play with caution.

Squirtle can rack damage and KO Ike, just fine, but it's a matter of what puts you more at risk. (Granted, it does matter on the players own skill level with each Pokemon, but let's say it's even...) then Squirtle gambles a higher risk. I doubt that can be denied. Ike's fortress-like qualities make him hard to approach, especially since Squirtle has puny distance than Ike does. This is just basing purely on range and whatnot, so what you get out from Starting Squirtle, you might end up taking more than with Ivysaur or Charizard who has tad better spacings in their attacks.

But I do agree that all 3 pokemon do perfectly fine as a Starter against Ike since All three pokemon can Rack damage easily on him, and the next runner up has at worst, decent, options to KO Ike.

 

[Bomber7]

Really. All three are great, They all can rack up damage quite well against Ike, besides, if we were choosing someone so they can stock tank them, them I would have to erase all of the info I have collected these past weeks and change the title to "Choosing Your Stock Tank Pokemon" which in most cases would be Ivysaur or Charizard.

Primarily all we are concerned about is racking up damage and keeping a decent game going. That includes building up momentum, keeping some sort of pressure on and doing the unexpected. Because squirtle is agile and speedy he can put on a decent pressure game, rack up damage pretty well and other things too. He has fast tilts to abuse and has wicked grabbing. From what I can tell, unless the Ike has a style or way to open up "combo's" with his jab, then squirtle has nothing much to worry about other than a reckless action. Sure it's more of a risk but since Squirtle can be quick with things, you can get some damage on Ike and switch before you are even in a danger zone percentile which would be around 50 or 60%

 

[Bomber7]

Ok, we need to pick up where we left off. We have a consensus yet or are we still going to debate?

 

[PTexclusive]

There we go lol.
Ivysaur start when facing Ike for me, I faced many Ike's in my time and for some reason i maneuver the best around Ike with Ivysaur, maybe its his range with his vines, his razor leaf, etc.
Even though I am best with squirtle his poor range gets outdone by Ike's sword, but in some situations my Squirtle does decent against him.
Charizard i save for second because if ivy cant get the job done, I can always rely on Charizard.

 

[Bomber7]

It is kinda hard to really determine if Squirtle is still good for the job. I have confidence with my squirtle skills account for that I start with him 99.9% of the time. I have played a decent Ike player once, and it wasn't that bad of an experience for me. All 3 pokemon did well for me when Ike was at a low % so I really don't have much to complain about other than the risk of being killed off early and cutting your momentum gain short.

 

[Ryusuta]

I'm also fairly certain that Squirtle is an equally good starter. However, I'm willing to make it just Ivy and Charizard, since those two are universally agreed-upon. We could always go back and re-examine things later.

We could make a note of our discussion regarding Squirtle, though.

 

[Bomber7]

Yeah. I don't see too bad of reasoning in having just Ivy and charizard on there. Besides, the factor of Squirtle being able to be killed off and its severity, varies per person. For me it's not so bad because I gain momentum pretty quickly but it won't be the same for someone else. So Let's have Ivy and Charz on there. Since I get off early tomorrow, I will get to the summary first thing when I get home.

 

[Bomber7]

Character Discussion JIGGLYPUFF

Sorry I'm a couple of days late guys, I lost my wireless signal and I had to find a new one. The OP has been updated and we can commence with the Jigglypuff discussion.

The current two recommended starters are Squirtle and Ivy. Agree? Disagree? Comments? Reasons?

I was thinking all three but then again it would be a bit hard for charizard to possibly get a hit on Jigglypuff who imo can outmaneuver him. So I guess Squirtle and Ivy will be good, but even so, let's hear some thoughts.

 

[Ryusuta]

In this matchup, Jigglypuff's air speed and juggling ability is a major threat to Charizard. He's also the most susceptible to Rest combos for an early KO as well.

Squirtle is an excellent choice against Jigglypuff. He's capable of outpoking her as well and KOing her very early on, while avoiding her main KO moves. He's not going to get juggled against her, and his normal range disadvantage is a non-factor in this match-up. He's a great starter choice.

Ivysaur is a much, MUCH better choice that he would first appear. Disregarding the fact that he can KO Jigglypuff at 50% if he plays his cards right, he's actually exceptionally hard for her to Wall of Pain. There is SOME risk of an early gimp, but this is actually a lot less substantial than it seems.

 

[Popertop]

but why is it hard to Wop Ivy?

 

[Ryusuta]

Because Ivysaur outranges her and has Razor Leaf and Bullet Seed on his side, mostly.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Ivysaur's Nair has extremely strange Priority. At the tip near the nose, it actually beats out Jigglypuff's Fair, though only if Ivysaur is at a direct diagonal to Jigglypuff. Though then again, it might be because Jigglypuff's hitbox doesn't go diagonal of her.

The thing about Jigglypuff is that all of her aerials pretty much beat everyone's aerials on contact. Disjointed hitboxes are the only reliable thing that beat's jigglypuff in the aerial. Forutnately for Ivysaur, pretty much all of his aerials are disjointed.

 

[Popertop]

so pretty much Nair?

k

 

[T-block]

I don't have a whole lot of puff experience, but what's been said seems right. Squirtle out-airs Jigglypuff really nicely, so I usually start him, but I can see how Ivy would be nice too.

 

[Steeler]

what

razor leaf and bullet seed are non factors against jiggs lol

 

[T-block]

Razor Leaf is still pretty useful =\ I would think b-air would shut down WoP.

 

[Steeler]

well yeah bair is really good here, very good anti-air move and jiggs is pretty much all air.

but razor leaf is slow and jiggs can deal with it by attacking through or air dodging through. it's not going to wall jiggs or anything, so i don't think it's any more useful than any other matchup, imo. razor leaf isn't that good in general.

 

[MrEh]

It's not the Wall of Pain that you should be worried about. The Wall of Pain is pretty bad in this game.

Worry about Pound. Seriously.

 

[Bomber7]

Ivy is a good choice. He can not only take Jigz in the sky but also can counter Jigz from the ground if she is in the air. Ivysaur is an artilery gun just waiting for someone to hop into the air.

 

[Kage Me]

Worry about Pound. Seriously.

Yes.

T_T

 

[Fhd]

charizard, rock smash does some serious damage to jiggly, along wtih he can counter it in the air

 

[Bomber7]

Well, keep in mind that Charizard is a big target for Jiggz. Charizard is mobile but Jiggz is just more mobile, if jiggz hits the air then Charz is in trouble, plus if he gets off the stage, he is a sitting duck for an attack.