Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[CoonTail]

I made a post in the zard tactical discussion about this but toby is right.....the big poke that can stand on his own here is zard because of his weight his range and his KO power, this actually allows him to fight with marth instead of making a gameplan around the **** that marth reeks on Squirt and Ivy's gimping.

Option 1: I like the three options that Toby has put up here because they all have benefits and flaws. The first option is a bit harder because you have to pay real close attention to squirtles fatigue AND defensive game because of the 0-death. This setup is great though because Ivy should score a KO meaning Ideally Zard got one, squirtle didnt but now Ivy did so its last stock both players and you have zard.

Option 2: is a bit more in tune for the real squirtle pros........because if you are one Im sure you work on this matchup like all hell and learned as much as you could about the dont get grabbed game meaning your squirtle is out there for a **** good reason.....you rock with him enough to KO a marth. Getting rid of Ivy means no more worries about gimps so that honestly if you choose this way to play PT there shouldnt be gimps because you should only be doing this with squirtle if you KNOW how to get around marth. This way no Ivy gimp, little to no squirtle gimp, and the Zard can just do work.

Option 3: LOL this last option I see having Charizard92 written all over it and Im not making fun of him at all. This is a zard reigning match and if you really are a zard expert than this is the route to take. You keep zard out there the longest and give the marth the hardest time figuring this is your number one poke in this matchup. Any good zard player should aim for this because honestly outside of mistakes if you can pull off switching to zard each time your minimizing gimps again because there is LITERALLY NO DISADVANTAGE being played. Squirtle not being played, Ivy not being played = 0 gimps(A lil ridic but obv the main reason for this setup.)

Honestly I would go Option 1 or 2......2 because I have been working on my marth matchup hard and a squirtle who nows how to get around marth really pisses the marth players in my area off LOL, but also because squritle can gimp its just hard. I wanna try and run more Ivy in this matchup just around here marth is such a vulture that if Ivy goes off stage he follows me so hard its near impossible to recover. So in short my option would be 1 or 2, but honestly every PT here should be able to pick one of those options because it applies to every poke and whichever one you like has a time to shine in each of the 3 options.

 

[Miles.]

- Don't have Ivysaur out at low percents. You'll die
- Don't have Squirtle out at mid percents onwards. You'll die
- Charizard's better at mid percents onwards. Does better than ivy at low percents too.

Read: ivysaur is useless.

And I'm talking about your percents, not the Marths.

shaya for the PTBR


ahha


Zard all day.

Zard first stock and just **** Marth, then rocksmash > Upsmash is next stock.

 

[Steeler]

option 3 is the best but riskiest

strategies like that where you switch a lot are usually the most ideal, like starting squirtle then going through the rotation on the same stock to end with a fresh squirtle, who imo is the most reliable killer when fresh.

 

[Bomber7]

All the Marth's I play go aerial which from playing marth myself is usually what you are supposed to do.

Counter: Watergun

Water gun ***** Marth's aerial approaches. Use them wisely though. Also watergun > Marth's fair.

Because of this I do quite well when it's squirtle all in on the first stock, so I'm just basing my opinion on that =/

 

[Toby.]

If marth plays a proper defensive game (pivot grabs, sd fair, nair) squirtle is pretty ****ed.

Water gun is okay, but seriously it stops a single aerial and then we're back to where we started: marth is coming back but we don't have time to charge a watergun again. Watergun is way better used to get marth offstage, and thats not going to happen if he is coming foward with an aerial, since the momentum is too great.

I suppose I should explain why squirtle has so much trouble in this matchup, but I'm at university and super tired. As always

Basically: Outranged. Marf fair = frame 4. Every grab = free tipper fsmash AT LEAST, regardless of the level. Marf defense > squirtle defense and offense.

 

[Miles.]

Maybe we should work in the BR on the marf matchup? Invite shaya and maybe mike haze back there to discuss with us.

 

[Bomber7]

If marth plays a proper defensive game (pivot grabs, sd fair, nair) squirtle is pretty ****ed.

Water gun is okay, but seriously it stops a single aerial and then we're back to where we started: marth is coming back but we don't have time to charge a watergun again. Watergun is way better used to get marth offstage, and thats not going to happen if he is coming foward with an aerial, since the momentum is too great.

I suppose I should explain why squirtle has so much trouble in this matchup, but I'm at university and super tired. As always

Basically: Outranged. Marf fair = frame 4. Every grab = free tipper fsmash AT LEAST, regardless of the level. Marf defense > squirtle defense and offense.

Watergun against a fair gives squirtle enough time to use a fair chain of his own against marth. hough you do make a valid point.

 

[Shaya]

It would be quite ludicrous for Squirtle to have a chance here when it takes 25 frames for watergun to come out.

Unless the Marth is [continually] stupid (I'm not saying it won't work once, but over and over and over again?), they're not going to be throwing out empty fairs when not in range for a hit as to allow you 25 frames to shoot your pew pew.

If Marth is in your face you have no chance with watergun, better chance with fair/other aerials
If Marth is at tipper range, you have less (read: little) chance
If Marth is just outside that range it really depends on how good the reaction speeds of both players are, but over all it's highly risky. Whilst Squirtle does have a higher terminal air movement than Marth (which is the only thing Squirtle really has in punishing silly mistimed aerial approaches [read: Marth should always be walling if he's trying to enter air space]), 25 frames is enough for Marth's aerial mobility to catch up, even with the boost Squirtle gets from watergun... it's... eh...

 

[Toby.]

I knew if I waited long enough you would make the post for me <3

Hooray.

 

[Bomber7]

Well I'm happy now, since it is Friday, I can be a lazy bum, so I will definitely make a summary. Y'all have contributed a sufficient amount of info, especially Toby. Thank you.

 

[Bomber7]

Character Discussion: METAKNIGHT

Ok, so our next starter discussion is Metaknight.

Initial options:

Squirtle

Ivysaur

Charizard

I think I will find this to be an interesting discussion.

My first thoughts: Start with Squirtle no matter who you are. I've always done best with Squirtle against the MK's I've played. (all but 1 of them above my skill level duh)

 

[zeta]

zard first no matter what he'll rack damage and if he dies first squirtle is gonna get the kill quickly and switch at least once to get back to zard he is the least gimpable of the three

 

[KuroganeHammer]

zard first no matter what he'll rack damage and if he dies first squirtle is gonna get the kill quickly and switch at least once to get back to zard he is the least gimpable of the three

Won't Squirtle find it hard to get a kill if the Meta Knight is always in the air? Squirtle's only good kill move is really Dthrow and U-smash.

I would say use Squirtle first, rack up damage with him, then change to Ivy, and knock Meta away using a throw or something (I dunno. Just get him away from Ivysaur), then change to Charizard, so he can finish him off.

So yeah, I choose you, Squirtle!

 

[Vermy]

Squirtle. No contest. i don't feel i need to reiterate at all.

 

[Bestiarius]

I just don't see how Squirtle can be all that great of a starter. Metaknight is better than Squirtle in every area that Squirtle is good. I can see Squirtle putting up a good fight, but he is just plain outclassed. Then, when he dies, you get Ivysaur, who is even worse against Metaknight, something like 70/30 MK I think were the numbers we agreed on. Charizard is the only one that can hope for equality, and I think Zard can outrange Metaknight enough to hold his own. So, I would probably say start with Charizard, because he is the best for this, then use Squirtle when Charizard dies. When Squirtle gets to kill percents, say, around 100%, switch to Ivy for sacrificial means so you can use Zard for the third stock.

 

[Vermy]

Go and watch the matches of Typh vs M2K. See why at high level of play Charizard vs MK doesn't work.

 

[Bomber7]

I totally forgot about Charizard, wow I'm absent minded only because I just made this when I first woke up so I wasn't awake.

my opinion: Squirtle-Charizard.

Charizard has already shown countless times of how well he can perform plus Squirtle is next in line.

Squirtle has good mobility and watergun comes in handy (don't spam or be ****ed by MK) also his jabs and tilts are great against MK.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@Bestiarius: IIRC, Squirtle is faster than MK in the air. And they both have about the same range. MK is just a tiny bit quicker to use attacks. I still say Squirtle all the way.

 

[IThinkAboutIvysaur]

Squirtle get outclassed in every way though not that badly he's still in an obvious disadvantage.
60:40 MK

Ivysaur obviously gets gimped really early and he sucks really hard here so I'd say it's 70:30 MK at best for Ivy.

Zard outranges MK and is hard to kill. But MK can juggle Zard endlessy. So I'd say it's
60:40 MK

So I would recommend Zard as a starter. Then if you die you at least get Squirtle instead of Ivysaur.

 

[T-block]

Actually Squirtle doesn't get outclassed in every way. I still like Charizard start, but you should think about the stage. If you're going to Battlefield or something, I'd to Squirtle > Charizard > Squirtle, but Final Destination I'd probably go Charizard > Squirtle > Charizard. There seems to be a lot of disagreement about Charizard vs MK, so I'll just say whatever you're comfortable with blahablahablha

 

[typh]

Go and watch the matches of Typh vs M2K. See why at high level of play Charizard vs MK doesn't work.

my charizard is REALLY bad

please don't judge matchups based on my matches

 

[Steeler]

Go and watch the matches of Typh vs M2K. See why at high level of play Charizard vs MK doesn't work.

no, charizard can work. you have to make use of really smart flamethrower. it does good damage, outranges everything MK has, and acts as a tornado bait, which you can rock smash for awesome damage. some MKs have a habit of spotdodging out of tornado cooldown, that's also a free rock smash. flamethrower if you aren't close enough. MK can't shuttle loop out of it either like marth can dolphin slash.

MK can juggle your *** really well though, so you have to use your grounded zoning really well. but MK hates rock smash because none of his attacks (except glide attack and really REALLY high priority tornado) can even attempt to clash through it. and mk is light.

also the matchup is a lot better on neutrals (large stages, weak/no emphasis on aerial combat) than it is on the majority of CPs. pictochat, the second two phases of castle siege, HALBERD mmmmmm (well, the second part mostly) are some of the exceptions.

the matchup really just boils down to using your two **** specials, doing your best to never be above MK, punishing out of shield (usmash is so good and kills), and KOing earlier than MK can KO you (without a gimp).

 

[CoonTail]

Squirtle doesnt get outclassed he gets out prioritized which is a problem but resorting to hit and run tactics against Mk with squirtle is always your best option. Honestly 9 out of 10 ways to beat MK is to bait him unfortunatly :/.

Honestly I would start zard because the zard to squirtle engine ensures the kill on MK. The zard player like steeler stated needs to really understand the strength of rocksmash beating tornado and flamethrower beating drill(Rocksmash can beat drill too if a random top fragment hits MK but thats way to unreliable)with this in mind you can handle MK. Nontheless people how do we say zard has nothing on MK. Zard has something on everyone that i brought up during the marth discusssion. Rocksmash to U-Smash is 61% on MK!!!!!! How is that nothing cmon with flamethrower and rocksmash being your biggest options HOW ISNT ROCKSMASH-UPSMASH. If you manage to land this early against MK when you start with zard, all you need to do is stay smart and you have secured the stock against MK.

Honestly Zard has always had something against MK he just gets juggled and everyones like OH HES GOT NOTHING. Zard has alot just read steelers post and it explains how the situation would be handled by a smart zard. I believe the Zard-squirtle battery is the way to go because zard has great opener options and with squirtle coming in fresh after zard dies, you are in a very good situation. Just my two cents.

 

[Tien2500]

Charizard does decently against MK. Its not that much different than most matches for Zard. Flamethrower is great (MK falls fairly fast) and Rocksmash is too. Zards grab range is obviously great here but it varies based on how much MK stays in the air. Usmash, Rock Smash, Dtilt are all great kill moves. Plus if you're having trouble KOing you can switch to Squirtle who can finish off with a fresh Fair or Dthrow. MK's Koing ability is meh so if you can avoid getting gimped (easier said than done) it will be hard for them to kill you.

Squirtle can do OK too. Squirtle's aerials are quicker by just a bit and his jab is great against a grounded MK. It would be almost even I think if not for MK's strong gimp game and ungimpable recovery. Also Squirtle's only real KO option is Dthrow. Fair will be diminished and I don't think Usmash is feasible against a good MK seeing as his moves don't really have any lag. If he KOs you first you have Ivy out which is awful for this matchup. But if you could KO him first you can sacrifice Ivy and if you're lucky you may even get a bullet seed or something to do a bit of damage and soften him up for Charizard.

I think we can all pretty much agree that Ivy should not be started ever.

 

[T-block]

Ivy shouldn't even be played in this matchup...it doesn't even need to be said really. Don't even go for a bullet seed lol...if he gets one hit on you you're in big danger of losing your stock.

Anyone know if air release -> u-smash is guaranteed? I was at a tournament today, and every time I tried it it connected. As for starters, I don't think that what stage you're on is mentioned enough in this thread. Charizard -> Squirtle on something like Brinstar would be stupid when you could just be maximizing Squirtle's time.

 

[Tien2500]

Ivy shouldn't even be played in this matchup...it doesn't even need to be said really. Don't even go for a bullet seed lol...if he gets one hit on you you're in big danger of losing your stock.

Anyone know if air release -> u-smash is guaranteed? I was at a tournament today, and every time I tried it it connected. As for starters, I don't think that what stage you're on is mentioned enough in this thread. Charizard -> Squirtle on something like Brinstar would be stupid when you could just be maximizing Squirtle's time.

Hopefully the fight will be on a fairly flat stage. Smashville or FD. If you find yourself on an air heavy stage then yeah Squirtle should start.

 

[CoonTail]

Ivy shouldn't even be played in this matchup...it doesn't even need to be said really. Don't even go for a bullet seed lol...if he gets one hit on you you're in big danger of losing your stock.

Anyone know if air release -> u-smash is guaranteed? I was at a tournament today, and every time I tried it it connected. As for starters, I don't think that what stage you're on is mentioned enough in this thread. Charizard -> Squirtle on something like Brinstar would be stupid when you could just be maximizing Squirtle's time.

I recently saw Ivy had a air grab release on MK and i know that the timing is tight. TBH if you want to land this you can even start the dash grab a millisecond too late. But Im sure if you hyphen smashed with Ivy out of it, it would connect which would be an absolutly awesome option for a quick sacrifice with Ivy. Its obv Ivy has abso-****ing-lutely no place at all in this matchup. I honestly found myself with squirtle at 150% just dashing in front of an MK and down b'ing (eek I know) just to get the oh so gimpable grass pig out of the way. This new idea of guarenteed U-smashes ou of air graba release would be great. In short tho this matchup requires the PT player to play squirtle and Zard completely on a mission to get through this matchup. You have to run your patterns with each poke flawlessly and bait MK into ALOT. So overall PT can beat MK and overall does OK in optimal situations against MK so even then there is alot of stress on the PT player obv because one mistake leads to a hell of alot of damage from this basterd.

 

[Steeler]

i know you can air grab release MK with ivy but i tried really hard to regrab out of it and couldn't

also

NEWS FLASH OMG ****

charizard can air release mk if you grab him out of the air

and you can regrab out of it

idk if you can do anything else out of it though, you might be able to get the first hit of usmash but usmash is a huge ***** and almost never hits the second one if you dash cancel with it. maybe you can shield cancel the usmash first and stop sliding?? worth a test. brb

 

[T-block]

I know I've air release chain'd 3 or 4 times before. It probably won't work more than 2 times against anyone who knows how grab releasing works... all they have to do is not hit jump. I let my u-smash out a bit early and every time it combo'd into the second hit. It can probably be DI'd out of though.

 

[Steeler]

hmm i thought they'd air break even if they didn't hit jump...(only if you grabbed them out of the air)

 

[Miles.]

I was chain grabbing Tyrants MK today with Ivy and it was making me LOLOLOLOLILULULULULULZZZzzz

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Squirtle get outclassed in every way though not that badly he's still in an obvious disadvantage.
60:40 MK

Ivysaur obviously gets gimped really early and he sucks really hard here so I'd say it's 70:30 MK at best for Ivy.

Zard outranges MK and is hard to kill. But MK can juggle Zard endlessy. So I'd say it's
60:40 MK

So I would recommend Zard as a starter. Then if you die you at least get Squirtle instead of Ivysaur.

60:40 isn't "outclassed". It's a slight disadvantage.

I still say Squirtle. Rack up damage with him, knock MK away, change to Ivy, somehow change to Charizard.

Your moves will be completely refreshed (Meaning lots of killing power), and Charizard should be at high enough percentages to NOT get comboed like hell.

Squirtle for starters. No. Contest.

 

[Miles.]

60:40 isn't "outclassed". It's a slight disadvantage.

I still say Squirtle. Rack up damage with him, knock MK away, change to Ivy, somehow change to Charizard.

Your moves will be completely refreshed (Meaning lots of killing power), and Charizard should be at high enough percentages to NOT get comboed like hell.

Squirtle for starters. No. Contest.

sounds great on paper but difficult to repeat on each stock.


just upsmash them with ivy for really early kill.

 

[kozimoto]

Yea i'd sum up th MK matchup by saying avoid use Ivy at all cost unless your ivy is a fortress

I'd ,mos def start with charizard on this MU, obviously its not going to be easy. but attempt rack up damage w/ flamethrower and rocks ect.... and then at about 80-90% grab and do a dthrow the knockback should be great enough to sub in squirtle. at this point go in for the kill maybe a few more arials then Usmash should do the trick.

can I get an AYO! anybody?

 

[kozimoto]

Sacrifice using green piggy at all cost!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

sounds great on paper but difficult to repeat on each stock.


just upsmash them with ivy for really early kill.

No.

Remember. I'm the best idealist.

 

[Bestiarius]

The problem with starting with Squirtle is that he and Metaknight are both mainly aerial characters, and MK purely outmatches him there. Yeah, Squirtle's not hopelessly beaten; he still has a few good tricks. However, anything Squirtle can do, MK does better, except for Squirtle's 3 locks, and it's next to impossible to catch a good MK in any of those. Plus, if MK kills your Squirtle, you have to go through the process of switching from Ivy to Zard because, let's face it, Ivy is horrible here. Then, that's a free combo on Zard, and you're juggled to death. If you don't get killed as Squirtle, but you can't kill him, you should switch to Ivy so that Zard comes out when you die. Now you'd have to get the kill without taking much damage. You need to win the first stock, and the best way to do that is to play a smart spacing game with Zard.

 

[T-block]

It's naive to say Metaknight outmatches Squirtle in the air in every way. Play the matchup and see... you just gotta play it smarter and less aggressively. Squirtle's aerials are actually faster than MK's f-air and b-air by a few frames.

 

[Bestiarius]

But all of Metaknight's aerials outprioritize Squirtle's because of those #%&%#@!&*ing disjointed hitboxes. Plus, MK's have less lag. Squirtle's aerials have next to no lag, but MK's have even less.

 

[IThinkAboutIvysaur]

But all of Metaknight's aerials outprioritize Squirtle's because of those #%&%#@!&*ing disjointed hitboxes. Plus, MK's have less lag. Squirtle's aerials have next to no lag, but MK's have even less.

This.

All in all MK > Squirtle in the air.